Debates of Feb. 13th, 2007

Citizenship and Immigration

[Meili Faille, Bloc, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank my colleague for his question. The thing I found most difficult when I visited the Metro West Detention Centre was seeing a man and a woman, a family, visit each other on either side of a glass partition. It had been that way for them for two years. It was totally inhuman.

Also, people were being strip-searched, and I could see why. There were also issues with respect to allowing the practice of Muslim rites, that is, various religious holidays. Apparently, some new things were being tried in connection with that.

At the time, it seemed there was also some vagueness about federal and provincial responsibilities. It was difficult for people to get health care because each time a detainee had to see a dentist or other health professional, an appointment had to be made with someone from the RCMP and a lot of security measures had to be in place to move a person under supervision.

At the time, our demands were simple: we wanted them to have better contact with their families. We could see why things worked the way they did. It was because the centre was not designed to detain people for indefinite periods. We received assurances that when the place the detainees were being transferred to was being evaluated, family life would be taken into consideration.

We found that that was not at all the case in Kingston. A close look at the facilities revealed that the detainees have access to a computer, a microwave and a refrigerator. They have a little canteen, although the food provided there is not very healthful.

However, what had gotten worse was that families had to travel farther to visit. The Millhaven centre is located about a half hour from Kingston. The only way for the families to get to Kingston is by bus or by train, which is not at all reasonable. Moreover, we were told that detainees would be allowed “contact visits”, that is, private visits with their families, but that is not the case.

[Colleen Beaumier, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

Mr. Speaker, there are a number of issues here but we are just to discuss the motion. We know that if there had been enough evidence these men would have been charged.

I visited Mahmoud Jaballah a few years ago at the Metro West Detention Centre. It was very tragic. This man had spent five years visiting his wife and his children, watching them grow through a glass window and talking to them on a telephone. It must have brought a terrible amount of devastation to him.

It seems that because of the paranoia that we share with the U.S. and the fact that we were complicit in what happened to Mr. Arar, it cost us $10 million plus, and worse, the sense that we as Canadians are endowed with a superior sense of justice and humanity took quite a hit.

These seem like very reasonable requests. What would it cost to have this implemented? For us, the sense of justice and maybe our pride and our values could stand a little boost. We know that the $10 million has cost us dearly, not just in money but in our sense of worth. What does the member think this would cost the government to give us back a little bit of pride and a little bit of justice for these men?

[Meili Faille, Bloc, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

Mr. Speaker, when we met with the centre's administrators, we asked them twice about the cost of these requests. This centre cost several million dollars. In this day and age, I think it is a shame that people are not being treated humanely and with more compassion at this centre.

Yesterday, the administrators said they would send us the estimated cost. However, we now know how much this centre cost. I believe we should measure the cost on a scale of how much these people have suffered. Only history will judge us. It is sad, but yesterday we were wondering whether the government was just waiting for another case of what happened to Maher Arar. I would simply say to my colleague that I went to the centre and left there quite unsettled.

In 2007, and in the years to come, we expect people to be treated more humanely. I believe it is possible, but the vagueness around the management of the centre is totally unreasonable.

[David Tilson, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

Mr. Speaker, my question for my colleague is similar to the question I just asked one of my Liberal colleagues.

As I understand it, this matter is before the courts and the federal court has already made a decision that these individuals pose a danger to the national security or to the public safety of this country and that they should remain in detention until they can be removed from Canada. That is what I understand has been done to date.

We have an independent court that has made this decision. As I understand it, if the court saw fit it could put conditions on this motion, such as giving conjugal rights, my goodness, the court could do that, although I do not know whether it has been asked for.

However, the motion says that they want a correctional investigator to take over this issue. I do not understand that because the matter is before the courts and the matter is being dealt with. It is before the courts as we speak.

[Meili Faille, Bloc, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I would simply say to my colleague that it is true that some requests were made before the court and they are still there.

As far as the issue of security certificates is concerned, a decision should be made by the Supreme Court shortly in the case of Mr. Mahjoub.

Nonetheless, this does not reflect the spirit of the motion. Three people are currently being detained without charges. They are not prisoners. These people have the right to be treated the same way they would be at any other immigration detention centre. These people are being detained under an immigration policy, not under criminal policy.

[Andrew Telegdi, Liberal, Kitchener—Waterloo, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I will be splitting my time with the member for Scarborough—Agincourt.

I want to commend both the critic for the Bloc and the critic for the NDP for their very steadfast support in this case of these three men, but also for their position of being defenders of human rights, civil liberties and standing up for the Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

There is no question that members in the Conservative Party have to understand that these folks, these detainees, these prisoners, are being held on mere suspicion. The decision to hold them was signed off on by the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration and the Minister of Public Safety, neither of whom have the judicial competence to do so.

There is no question in my mind that the government and the officials holding these people are now at the point where they are embarrassed, because what they would like is to see these detainees leave the country and disappear. Is that really fundamentally good for the security of our country?

We should think about it for a minute. Let us suppose that we had Osama bin Laden in detention. Would it make Canada safer if we released him and sent him back to the caves in Afghanistan, Pakistan or wherever? Of course not, because Mr. Osama bin Laden could come back here quickly. I dare say that with Mr. Osama bin Laden the government would not be using a security certificate. We use a security certificate only when we are dealing with a matter of suspicion.

All of us in this House know that we just finished apologizing for the Chinese head tax. We have apologized to the Japanese for unlawful internment. We have done the same for the Ukrainian community, and there are many communities to come. It is because of the history that we have as a nation and the draconian laws that we had as a nation that I think we collectively came together as a nation on April 17, 1982, when we established the Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

I am going to talk about security certificates and the charter because I think this is so fundamental to this question. As for saying that a judge has decided, at the citizenship and immigration committee we heard evidence that the security certificate process the way it is set up is not workable.

We heard that from Justice Roger Salhany, who wrote the book on evidence. He explained to the committee the nature of the legal system we have. For any judge in Canada to make a determination, he has to hear both sides of the story. He has to hear from the lawyer for the defence. He has to hear from the prosecutor. From that, he will make a judgment.

The way one of these security certificates works is that a person is charged and it is applied against him. No case is proven, but suspicions are told to a judge in the presence of the prosecutor and the investigative officers. There is no defence attorney present. The constitutionality of the security certificate as it stands right now is before the Supreme Court. I dare say, and I believe, that the Supreme Court is going to amend our security certificate process.

When the security certificate process was first established, it was established for people with no status in Canada. In 2002, the security certificate process was extended to people who had status in Canada, who were immigrants but not yet citizens.

I know that the world got shook up by 9/11. I know that members of the House were shook up by 9/11. A terrible tragedy happened. The Anti-terrorism Act was passed, in which we had some very draconian measures. One such measure was investigative hearings, where one was compelled to testify against oneself. Preventative detention was also included in the act. However, we were smart enough, I must say, to put a sunset clause in the act. That sunsetted clause is going to expire. With the exception of the Conservatives, I believe the House is going to vote against it keeping it, because the act itself is very much against the Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

As for the very thought, back in 2004, that security certificates were going to be extended to citizens as well, I say that to Canadians because if they want to say they are Canadians and this does not apply to them, they should just remember that this did not apply to immigrants to this country, who had no status, this applied only to visitors and others, so this could very well apply to everybody.

Constitutionally, what is a security certificate? That question is before the Supreme Court right now. A security certificate is the ability of the government to ignore the legality section of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. This section applies to all Canadian citizens right now, but it does not apply to those people under security certificates.

What are some of the legal rights that today's detainees are denied?

Everyone has the right to be secure against unreasonable search or seizure. Everyone has the right not to be arbitrarily detained or imprisoned. Everyone has the right, on arrest or detention, to be informed properly of the reasons for the arrest. Everyone has the right to retain and instruct counsel without delay. Everyone has the right to have the validity of their detention determined by way of habeas corpus. As well, everyone has the right to be informed without unreasonable delay of the offence. Everyone has the right to be tried within a reasonable time. Everyone has the right “to be presumed innocent until proven guilty according to law in a fair and public hearing”.

These are just some of the legal rights that we as Canadian citizens enjoy but these detainees are denied.

What is the request before this House? It is not to overturn the Anti-terrorism Act, which we will. I am very pleased to say that it was my most solemn moment in this House when I stood up and voted against that legislation because I believed it so violated the fundamental principles of our justice system. It so violated the Charter of Rights and Freedoms that I could not support it. I did the same when security certificates were placed in the immigration act.

I do see a sunset coming to that act. I see the House coming to its senses and, as I mentioned, with the exception of the Conservative Party, we will be eliminating the sunset clause. I am looking forward to eliminating the process of security certificates altogether.

There is also a fundamental importance underlying this. In Canada, if we are going to fight terrorism, if we are going to fight for a secure country, then we can never repeat the mistakes of the past, mistakes such as saying to Japanese Canadians that we can treat them differently because they are Japanese Canadians, or saying to the Chinese that we can treat them differently because they are Chinese, or saying to Ukrainians that we can imprison them because they are different.

That is what fundamental human rights are about. We can never set up a situation where it is them and us, because our common security as Canadians is determined by the fact that we are an inclusive nation. We encourage every segment of our community and we expect every segment of our community, instead of feeling isolated, to have a stake in the peace and security of this country. That is what inclusiveness is all about and that is how we fight terror. That is how we fight to make sure that we have a democratic country where everybody is included.

[Penny Priddy, NDP, Surrey North, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the previous speaker. We have talked today about many broad issues, but it has been mentioned that we are here today to talk about the expansion of the oversight of the Correctional Investigator. I am wondering if my colleague could perhaps speak to the difference that he feels it would make in these men's lives if the Correctional Investigator had his authority expanded to have oversight over these three men as well. What difference would that make in their lives?

[Andrew Telegdi, Liberal, Kitchener—Waterloo, ON]

Mr. Speaker, what is so imperative is that these people are detainees and are under a terrible and horrible burden. They are here in custody forever unless they want to go back to Syria, in the case of one of the detainees, or Egypt. We know what would happen to them.

As for members on the Conservative side of the House who stand up and say that these people have a choice, that they can just leave, how many people would walk into a situation of torture? How many people would walk into a situation where they can be killed? That is the option that is left to them.

Unlike prisoners and convicts, who have a set release date, these folks are being held indefinitely. The obligation is on us, since we are violating their fundamental rights under the charter, to ensure that their stay is as reasonable and as humane as possible. To deny them things like an ombudsperson, which convicted offenders have, does not make any sense. It makes sense only if we believe that if we make it miserable enough for them, then they will go back to Syria, and perhaps be killed, and then the embarrassment would be over for Canada because we would have eliminated a very real problem that now exists in the Kingston holding cells.

The request for an ombudsperson is incredibly reasonable. Clifford Olson has an ombudsperson. He was convicted through due process with his charter rights intact. Yet these people are being held without that benefit. It does not make any sense.

[Ed Fast, Conservative, Abbotsford, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I listened carefully to the member's comments. What I think he has reaffirmed for the Canadian people is that the Liberal Party does not take terrorism seriously. He has suggested that security certificates violate the rights of those who are incarcerated for suspected terrorism. I believe I heard him say that he would like to see those certificates actually eliminated.

He also disagrees that individuals who are suspected of terrorism should be detained in prisons. I am a little concerned, because clearly terrorism around the world has become a very serious threat to free and democratic countries around the world.

I have a question for him. He has suggested that detainees should perhaps not be arrested strictly on suspicion, that we would have to go beyond suspicion to detain people. Is he suggesting that we should wait until a suspected terrorist actually commits an action that moves us toward a terrorist act before we detain that individual?

[Andrew Telegdi, Liberal, Kitchener—Waterloo, ON]

Mr. Speaker, it is pretty obvious from the commentary coming from the Conservatives that their way of fighting terrorism is the George Bush way of fighting terrorism, where they go into Iraq, terrorize the people, create terrorists where none exist. That is an action they have supported and it is a neo-conservative position. They like to call themselves new Conservatives, the new government. They are neo-conservatives. I am not surprised that we differ on the question.

The fact of the matter is we have laws in Canada. It is very simple. The police have reasons for their suspicion. They have evidence to base it on. They go to court and they make their case. At the same time, those people who are accused have the right to defend themselves. Otherwise all we would need is for somebody to make an accusation. In the paranoia of the post 9/11 world, that is what we have. We are operating on suspicion and paranoia. We are driving wedges between sections of the Canadian community.

I have always said that yes, we fight terror, but one has to prove one's case. One cannot act on mere suspicion. That is not upheld in the court of law that we have, a court of law which took centuries to evolve. I believe everybody has a right to his or her day in court, even though the Conservatives do not, because they just say, “Hey, you are a terrorist”. It does not work that way.

There were societies, the Soviet Union with its gulags, and the Nazis with their concentration camps, who believed in that.

We learned from that and we learned from our own history of what we have done. We have learned from our own history some very painful lessons. That is why we have the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, so that our basic human rights are protected. None of that protection is being afforded to these people.

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Mr. Speaker, it is indeed a pleasure to rise on this motion. I want to thank my colleague from the NDP for bringing it forward; however, I want to reassure not only the Canadian public but the detainees who I know are watching right now that all parties together are working on this issue.

A lot of people have referred to the Kingston Immigration Holding Centre as Gitmo North, and it is Guantanamo North, nothing more, nothing less. One of the things that is lacking is a set of protocols, an ordered way to do things. It is a hodgepodge. We borrow some from here, we borrow some from there and we try to put it together.

If the detainees push, then we push back a little bit more. If somebody says anything, we push back. However we cannot push back Parliament. We cannot push parliamentarians back when they are bringing to light for Canadians three individuals who have been held for six and seven years without knowing why they are being held. There is a secret trial that is going to happen or is not going to happen. We are playing mind games with their families. We are playing mind games with them. This country should not be one of the countries that does this.

Unfortunately, less than one year ago, in April 2006, the holding centre was built in Kingston right beside Millhaven. It is not Correctional Service Canada. It is not CBSA and it is not Citizenship and Immigration Canada. It is just a holding centre. It has an administration building and it has living quarters for the three men who are being held.

The three men who are being held there do not have anyone who speaks for them. They can put in a complaint and they can raise issues and they are dealt with somewhere. We do not know where or by whom, but they are dealt with and they get a response. If they want to complain further, they have absolutely nowhere to go to.

Mr. Speaker, if you were to get a traffic ticket today, you could go in front of a judge and say, “I am innocent” or “I am guilty”. These individuals have not yet had their day in court. They do not know why they are being held and certainly, in order to improve their living conditions, they have nowhere to go.

The minister visited and said, “I have seen the chocolate bars”. Well, I visited two days later. These individuals have lost 25 to 30 pounds. They were drinking soya milk, water and orange juice. The minister says they have chocolate bars. I was there almost a week and half ago, and when I opened the fridge, there were four bottles of water and two bottles of orange juice. Yet when the committee went there yesterday, the table was filled with orange juice, soya milk and everything else. What hypocrisy. What a show was put on.

This goes back to my original thought. We need an ombudsman. These individuals need an ombudsman in order to be able to voice their concerns.

They are on the grounds of Millhaven penitentiary but they are not on there. There is a memorandum of understanding between the two departments. One department says one thing, one department says another thing. The correctional services officers who are looking after them are really on loan to CBSA.

One of my professors from university said, “Enough BS and verbal diarrhea to really baffle the brain”. This is what we have from the Conservative government. We have absolutely no clear direction. The bureaucrats have no clear direction with respect to these men. There is nobody to oversee them.

Let us go over this issue. We need a protocol on how to deal with these detainees and should there be any detainees in the future of the same sort. We need a protocol that indicates how it should be done and we need an ombudsman to oversee it. The Correctional Investigator ombudsman should be one of the individuals who oversees this.

These individuals have not seen a medical practitioner. They have not seen a doctor for months. Mr. Mahjoub's health is ailing. He has high blood pressure. He has hepatitis C that he contracted when he was incarcerated. Yet in this country, not in Syria, not in Egypt, not in Iraq, not in Pakistan, but in this country, we do not give him health care.

One of the men has a hernia. I asked the officer yesterday, “When are you going to give him attention?” The officer said, “Oh well, it takes 18 months to get hernia operations in Kingston and the surrounding area”. Eighteen months. That is enough to boggle the brain. In Kingston, in this country, it takes 18 months to get an operation. Is there enough verbal diarrhea and bullshit here to baffle the brains? We bet there is.

What is the minister doing? They got chocolates. If the minister had bothered to look at the men he would have seen that they had lost weight. If he would give his bureaucrats a clear mandate on how to do it, there would not be a problem with their health care.

Something which is more bizarre is that every day the men stand to be counted. Remember that there are three of them in a small building, something like 20 by 40 feet. That is ridiculous.

Yesterday we found out that there are five guards who are certainly a little more aggressive than the rest of them and they are making these men's lives miserable.

The minister is saying that if they want to walk out and go back, by all means. Has the minister forgotten about Arar? Has he forgotten what happened to Arar in Syria? Maybe we should spell it out for him. It cost $10.5 million. It cost an embarrassment to the government. Saying that they can walk out and go back to Syria is something that this country certainly cannot afford and it is not humane.

I think we must ask the Conservative minority government, the new government as the Conservatives say, to come to terms with reality. Regardless of whether the men are terrorists or not, we are not here today to debate that particular thing. We are here today to talk about the way they have been treated. We are here today to talk about setting protocols. We are here today to talk about the secret trials and sealed evidence. Not in this country.

These men must know what they are charged with. These men must know and be able to face their accuser. These men and their families should not be separated for seven years.

Mr. Mahjoub has children who were born in Canada. Mr. Jaballah has a grandchild whom he has only seen once or twice. Where? In Canada. It is a pity.

I join my colleagues, on this side of the House at least, the NDP, the Bloc and the Liberals, in urging the minister to look at this very carefully, to make sure that the minister puts in place protocols and guidelines that the holding centre and the detainees can be governed by.

There are 20 issues that the detainees have put forward. Issue one was dismissed. Issue two was dismissed, and it goes on for 20 issues. They were all dismissed.

If people are convicted, hardened criminals, they can have conjugal visits in jail. Their families can spend up to 72 hours with them. Imagine. I heard my colleague from Kitchener—Waterloo talk about Olson and Bernardo. We are talking about that calibre of criminal. They can have conjugal visits.

These individuals do not know what they are faced with. We tell them that they are terrorists. We tell them that they have links to al-Qaeda, but certainly we are not putting this forward. When their families visit, they are harassed at the gate before they get in. They go in and there is a short time when they meet and they are told, “You have a couple of minutes”.

For the record, the chocolate bar that the minister did see and he said that the men got chocolates, was for the grandson of one of the individuals, should the grandson visit.

One has to ask why we are not moving in a humane fashion. What signal are we sending to the rest of the world?

I certainly urge the House to support the motion.

[The Deputy Speaker, NDP, Bill Blaikie]

Before I proceed to questions and comments, I want to say to the hon. member that at one point during his speech he did use language which has been singled out as unparliamentary in the past. It did not create a disturbance so I let it go, but I just wanted him to be mindful of that and try to not do that in the future.

[Stockwell Day, Conservative, Minister of Public Safety]

Mr. Speaker, I have three short items. First, would the member for Scarborough—Agincourt be willing to correct his statement when he made reference to a chocolate bar? Not only did I never make any reference to a chocolate bar, there was never any media report of that. Would he be willing to correct the record or show me where he got that fabrication?

Second, will the member acknowledge that it was the Liberal government that gave the order to construct this particular detention centre because the people who were being detained said that they should not be in a provincial facility?

Third, will the member also acknowledge that the security certificate process has been in place for almost 30 years and that it was brought in and supported by the Liberals?

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the minister would stand and say that he failed to set protocols on how these men should be dealt with and that he failed in his job to ensure these people were afforded the rights on how they were handled. I wonder if the minister has enough fortitude to stand up and tell the country that he failed.

These people do not have an ombudsman and, therefore, have absolutely no way of having their grievances heard. If the minister will make those statements then I will engage in the other part of the conversation with the minister.

[Bill Siksay, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I know my colleague feels strongly about the situation of the men detained at Kingston as he has been very involved in this issue.

I want to point out that the minister made an intervention a moment ago and asked the member to correct the record about chocolate bars. I think the minister, in describing the contents of the refrigerator that he saw at Kingston, said that there was chocolate sauce in the refrigerator. I believe that is on public record. In fact, I heard the minister himself say that on TV.

After visiting that facility yesterday, we certainly did not see any chocolate sauce in the refrigerator. However, as I said earlier, it does not matter what is in the refrigerator because the men are not eating. They are only taking liquids. One of them is only taking water at this point, while the other two only water and orange juice. It is a very serious situation.

The local grocery store could empty all its food and put it in the Kingston Immigration Holding Centre but it would not change the fact that these men are on a hunger strike and are facing serious and life-threatening health consequences because of that.

During our visit yesterday, we heard that two of the men had finally seen a doctor last Wednesday. We also learned that recommendations had been made for treatment and monitoring but that those arrangements had not yet been put into place. I wonder if the member might comment on the specific problems related to health care at the Kingston Immigration Holding Centre.

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague for talking about the chocolate bar. However, during our visit yesterday I am sure he will remember that Mr. Almrei went up and opened the cupboard and took the chocolate bar out. He said, “Here's the chocolate bar that the minister was talking about. How dare he go through my private property”. That is what we heard, for the record.

The men are suffering from all kinds of health problems. Mr. Jaballah has sores on his tongue that are getting worse. Mr. Mahjoub has bad knees and hepatitis C. Mr. Almrei certainly has problems. Mr. Jaballah wants to have a hernia operation. Where I really lost my mind is when I heard that it takes 18 months to have a hernia operation.

The health situation of the detainees certainly has been deteriorating but it is not something that is a priority of the government nor of the minister when he stands up and wants to correct the record.

I would add my voice that health care should be given to these individuals and that a doctor should be visiting these detainees on a daily basis.

[Stockwell Day, Conservative, Minister of Public Safety]

Mr. Speaker, this is an important element that we are talking about today. While I do not, in any way, take issue with the intent of this motion, I do suggest that the timing makes it awkward because this matter, as far as some individuals, is before the Supreme Court, which makes it difficult for myself as minister to address some of these issues as specifically as I would like to. I would hope that the member who brought the concurrence motion forward did not realize that this would be a restricting element. However, I will address this issue broadly.

First, the whole question of security certificates is something that has been with us in terms of a legislative element for a number of years in very specific items. It was first brought in, in its present modern day form, in 1977 by the federal Liberals. A security certificate is issued when someone, who is not a citizen or permanent resident, arrives on our shores and, after the person's information and background has been checked, which happens to everyone who arrives in Canada, Canadian or otherwise, it is determined from the person's record that the person may be a high security risk.

I want to emphasize that I am speaking in general terms. I am not referring to any present detainees because some of the people's cases are before the Supreme Court. If it is determined that the person is a high security risk, then the person is deemed to be inadmissible. At that point a security certificate is issued, which would allow us to remove the person from the country.

To show how rarely this is used, this has resulted in seven certificates since 2001. It is a tool that is used rarely and only in those circumstances where the information on the file of that person is so significant that it is determined that the person would be a risk to Canada's national security or a risk to Canadians.

I really wish the member for Scarborough—Agincourt would be more circumspect in his remarks, as a matter of fact, just plain factual. We obviously have no problem with debate on this item, as this is something we should be debating, but classical rules of debate and even modern rules of debate would call for factuality and not hyperbole.

The certificate that is given to people is something they are allowed to see. If they do not have their own legal counsel, they are given legal counsel and their legal counsel is allowed to see the case that has been made before them. The only exception to that would be if there were certain elements in the information that could possibly put another nation or Canada at risk for maybe disclosing the name of an intelligence officer somewhere. However, the information itself is made available to the legal counsel.

At that point in time, the people who have been served the security certificate have some options. They can freely return to their country of origin or to any third party country that will accept them. Now I realize there may be those who say that if they return to their country of origin they will be tortured or thrown in jail, and that is certainly their right to claim that, but then they would start a refugee claimant process. They would start a process where they would appeal the designation that they have been given.

Canada, as it is noted around the world, has the most generous and extensive refugee appeal process of any country in the world. That is not a matter for debate, it is just a matter of fact. I am not saying whether people like it or they do not like it, I am saying that it is a matter of fact. As a matter of fact, so extensive is the appeal process that a person can appeal literally for years, one appeal after another, and that is their right to do.

What does a government, which has been charged with the safety and security of its citizens, do when it now has an individual who is deemed to be an extremely high risk to the security of the country or to Canadians and has been given an inadmissibility order but is appealing it? The only responsible thing to do at that point is for the government in question to say that the person is allowed to appeal but that during the appeal the individual must be detained until he or she has either exhausted all appeals or has decided to return to his or her country of origin or to a safe third country. That, in effect, is why there are detention centres for people who wish to appeal, who have been designated a high security risk.

This process has been upheld in the Federal Court of Appeal a number of times, and not only the process, I can point to an actual individual who is not before the Supreme Court. Members will recall that a few months ago there was an individual who our security services deemed to be a spy. He had changed his identity and was living in Canada as a spy for Russia. He was given a security certificate and was detained because it was determined that he was a risk to Canadians and to the country.

He had his lawyers look at that security certificate, which they did. The individual wanted to stay in the country but the Federal Court upheld the security certificate and he was removed. That is an example. I cannot use present day examples because some are before the court. That is how the process works, not just in this country but most democratic countries have a similar process.

I must be careful not to mention specific individuals, but I ask members to picture individuals who have been served a security certificate and are using every possible means to appeal, which is their right. Picture them being held in a provincial correctional facility and they begin to complain about the facility saying that they should not be in with the regular inmate population. The government of the day, and let us assume the Liberal government of the day, constructs a stand alone site that is subject to the rules of all other detention centres, which are rules that are implemented by the Canada Border Services Agency.

We have a number of detention centres across the country where people, who have been deemed inadmissible, are being held for a period of time. These are not correctional facilities or prisons. They do not have, what some would say, the same rights but they are more accommodating than certain prisons, although others would say they are less. Whatever the view is in the particular circumstance, these facilities exist across the country.

They do not need to have, nor should they have, nor would it be appropriate, nor is it within the mandate of the Inspector General of Corrections, a person with whom I meet and who gives me a report, to also have the detainment areas of the Canada Border Services Agency. As a matter of fact, those detainment areas are reviewed constantly by a variety of other sources and other individuals in terms of their respect for human rights and human accommodations.

We now have a situation where a new facility was built at the cost of $3.2 million, a facility that members here, thankfully, have visited, the Red Cross has visited on a number of occasions and outside sources visit regularly. That particular facility is housed on the grounds of Millhaven near Kingston but not within the federal component of that. It is separate because these people are not so-called prisoners who have been convicted of a crime in Canada. This particular facility has six cells.

I do not know how many members have been to a prison facility and have seen a jail cell. It is not a master bedroom, nor is it intended to be. I can say that the cells in that facility are bigger than many that I have seen in correctional facilities. I am not saying that is nice and I am not saying they are wonderful and accommodating. I am giving a statement of fact.

The cell doors are open during the day and the detainees can walk in and out. There is a large corridor area and a fairly large kitchen, by anybody's standards, where only the people housed there have access to their own washer and dryer, microwave and a large refrigerator.

On the day I was there, as on other days, a variety of items were made available and housed in the refrigerator, such as juices, yoghourts, liquids from various sources, soy milk and honey. I do not know why everybody reacted when I said I observed a large container of chocolate sauce as well. I do not know why people zeroed in and leapt at that. It does show the focus when a member gives wrong information about chocolate bars.

It is important I raise that because it was raised by the member for Scarborough—Agincourt. He apparently told some detainee that the minister had seen a chocolate bar. I never said that because I did not see one. From what the member told me, I guess the person opened the cupboard in his cell and there was a chocolate bar. He accused me of going into his private property. That is what happens when gross inaccuracies are used in debate. Some poor gentleman thought I had gone through his private property. In fact, I did not, but I suppose he produced a chocolate bar. I do not know why that is relevant, but it should not be used by the member to deflect the import of the debate. It is ridiculous.

They are served meals three times a day. They have the right to accept the meals or not. They are also served snacks at different times. They have the right to accept those or not.

Outside of that area is a large yard where detainees can exercise or have fresh air for four and a half hours a day. Immediately adjacent to the yard and still separate from the inmate population is another facility, which has a private office, a separate medical examination room and an exercise area with full window views. It looked like it was fairly new, with universal type gym equipment and a coloured TV, with which I had no problem.

There is also another, not huge, but fairly large common area in which family visits can take place seven days a week. Should people choose to see their spiritual advisers, priests, imams, whoever they may be, they can also visit them at least twice a week. I heard of one fairly joyous ceremony, something that would equate to a ceremony for a young man, that took place in the not too distant past.

It bothers me when I hear people saying that there is no medical help available. A medical practitioner visits the cell area every morning at 10 a.m. to offer services. The services may be turned down. There is also a doctor and a psychologist who are immediately available, but not necessarily on a moment's notice.

All these things are in place because we believe in human rights in Canada. We believe in human respect. We believe in caring for all people, no matter what their particular situation may be.

I have gone over the reasons why individuals are housed and detained in a facility like that. I indicated that some of the people have cases before the Supreme Court. Again, the Federal Court of Appeal has not only upheld this process, but it has upheld some specific individuals in terms of the process being valid.

When the member for Scarborough—Agincourt launches into a tirade that is not factual and accuses the government of being disrespectful of human rights, he forgets it was his government that brought in the process. It was his government that defended it. It was his government that upheld it, as did the Federal Court of Appeal. I would caution him. He can get into debate and be vigorous about it, but do not reflect, in a pejorative way, on the intent, the personalities or the intelligence of people who for the last 30 years in the Liberal government and judges themselves in the federal court have upheld this. Let us have the debate, but let us make it on reasonable grounds.

The member said a number of things that were inaccurate. How can a member of the House be allowed to get up and talk about the confidentiality of somebody's state of health? Can members imagine if I did that? Imagine the howls of protest from all parts of the House if it were said of me that I was disclosing elements of a person's private health situation? I could not do it and I cannot do it. I can say that the health is monitored. However, I would not recommend that people go on a diet of only a variety of juices, or soy milk, or yogurt, or honey or other various concoctions for many weeks, and I am not reflecting on an individual now.

Yesterday I was asked why the government had not done something, why it had not intervened in their health situation. The fact is we cannot force people to eat. Meals can be brought to them, but we cannot intervene. We cannot plunge an intravenous into their arms and force them to eat. I hope anybody in that situation would finally choose to return to solid foods. We know people can exist for long periods of time on diets of soups, yogurts, juices, soy milk and honey, but I do not recommend it.

Nor am I saying that the facility is a pleasurable existence, but it is not the type of accommodation that would deprive people of human rights, as stated out and as upheld in the Charter of Rights and Freedoms in Canada and within our legal system.

The member also said that there were no protocols. Protocols have to be followed. Every complaint or grievance raised in that facility by any individual is catalogued and followed through. One of the members of the NDP, who had some genuine concerns, listed six particular ones. If I am not wrong, I think five of the six have been addressed, but I stand corrected on that. That member brought the information out in a factual way. He disagrees with the process. His debating points were based on what he saw as factual and what should be right or wrong.

The member also mentioned that there was no medical care or practitioner available. Every morning a medical practitioner is there and others are available on call.

I hope the many provisions the government has taken to secure the safety of Canadians will prove that we have done all we can. However, we never can do all we can. We never can do everything to make sure our society is 100% protected at all times. We put $1.4 billion in the last budget directly toward the safety and security of Canadians. With respect to our borders, we have provided $101 million for the next two years to train our border officers with sidearms. Another substantial amount of money has been provided to hire 400 more border officers for the work alone sites across Canada. Border officers work alone many times at midnight. The Liberals allowed this to exist for years, but we will put an end to it. We do not want any more work alone sites.

We have done many things to enhance security to ensure that trade moves quickly across the border. We have done things to stop people who have the wrong intent or people who we are concerned might harm Canadians or our country.

That is the essence of the process itself and where it came from. It is something that we feel should be in place. As I said, it is used very rarely. When people arrive on Canadian shores and the evidence is such that they are deemed to be a risk to the security of Canadians, or perhaps they have been engaged in human rights violations or other such things, there has to be a way to say that they are inadmissible. If they want to challenge that inadmissibility, there is a process in place so they can challenge it. Canada is one of the most generous countries in the world. It could take years.

In those cases of security risk, where their lawyers are allowed to see the information, other than strict national security items, then we will have to detain them until they exhaust their appeal process. At the end of the process, if the courts determine they are free to walk around, we have to deal with that. In fact, one court ruled in one case that the individual was free to be out of the detention centre, but had to remain under house arrest.

We have the safety and security of Canadians as our best interests and we will respect the human rights of all people in maintaining that.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the sensitivity of the particular position of the minister in terms of making specific comments about specific cases. However, the debate is not about that. It it not about this issue nor his role. His role is to administer and set policy, and we are talking about that.

A bit of historical perspective has to be brought to this right now. That institution was built because we had these individuals incarcerated in provincial institutions. The message we got from them, quite clearly, in the last Parliament and again in this one, was they were not capable of doing it. We know there were specific problems with the administration of that.

When this was constructed, why did we did not anticipate the kinds of problems we are running into right now, without going into the specifics? Why do we not have policy in place to deal with this?

More specific, has he given any consideration to treat them no differently than we treat other prisoners and to provide some type of an ombudsman, whether it is the corrections investigator or somebody from the outside specifically appointed to take complaints, to try to deal with them? If there were specific policy issues that have to be addressed as a result of those complaints, we then would have a system in place to deal with them.

First, why did we not anticipate this? Second, why can we not put in place some kind of an ombudsman system?

[Stockwell Day, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I appreciate what the member for Windsor—Tecumseh said about this as a debate about policy and not individuals. Unfortunately, a lot of the debate I have heard zeros right in on the individuals themselves and it makes it very difficult for the government to respond. In some cases the individuals have their cases at the Supreme Court.

Why were these grievances and problems not anticipated? The federal Liberal government decided to have a detention facility. I believe the decision to take it out of the main inmate population and to have a separate facility was correct. It was a prudent thing to do.

That facility, being largely governed under the Canada Border Services Agency, has a number of overseers, not only their own particular protocol officers, who have to oversee it and report on every instance and every grievance, but the Privacy Commissioner has access to it as does the Auditor General. As well, most of the senior officers of Parliament have access to concerns within their particular area that would relate to this.

On grievances, the filing of grievances is a very common thing within not just the prison system but in the detention system. I am not saying it is right or wrong. Nor am I saying it is abused. I was at a facility about three weeks ago, which housed a few hundred individuals. The number of grievances brought forward in a year were 1,300. I think close to 800 had been dealt with and 500 had not. That is 500 grievances that people on one side of the equation said should have been dealt with and people on the other side said they had been dealt with.

Grievances are a common process in the field labour management and collective bargaining. I met with a union leader only a few days ago. I was surprised at the number of grievances brought forward by members of the union. It was in the hundreds. I was also surprised by the numbers that had been resolved, but the unresolved ones were still in the hundreds.

The fact a grievance is brought forward shows that the person has the right to grieve. They are all reported. There is a protocol in place as to which ones are addressed, which ones are not addressed and why.

[Ed Fast, Conservative, Abbotsford, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I share in the minister's frustration. When we hear Liberal members of the House talking about chocolate bars, when in fact Canada and free nations around the world are facing this critical threat from terrorism, that is not encouraging.

I have two questions for the minister.

First, there has been some suggestion from our Liberal colleagues along the way that somehow the securities certificates represent a violation of the Charter of Rights of Canada. I invite him to comment on this. When these matters are dealt with by the Federal Court or the Supreme Court, do those courts take the charter into consideration?

Second, are Canadian citizens ever subject to these security certificates?

[Stockwell Day, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I believe all questions are pertinent in this House, but the hon. member's question is particularly pertinent from the point of view of a detaining type of system because within his constituency reside a number of facilities. Now it is within the prison system, and I do not know that there is a CBSA facility in his constituency. I think if not on the border, it comes close to the border. However, he is well aware of what happens within any kind of a detaining system.

First, he asked if the provisions have been subject to the charter. When something procedural comes to the Federal Court of Appeal, as has happened in a number of cases with security certificates, the hon. justices who sit at that Federal Court of Appeal have to take into account the charter. They do that in a significant way, they look at precedent and all of Canadian law, especially when it comes to rights and the deprivation of rights. So, full charter consideration, at least in the minds of the Federal Court of Appeal to date, has been taken into consideration.

Then the member for Abbotsford asked if this applies to Canadian citizens. The security certificate process does not apply to Canadian citizens, nor does it apply to permanent residents.

[Jim Abbott, Conservative, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Canadian Heritage]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to invite the minister to briefly comment on what the reaction would be if indeed an unfortunate event occurred as a result of people being in our society who should have been isolated from our society. In other words, it is his responsibility, on behalf of our government and the government on behalf of Canadian people, to keep our streets and communities safe, particularly in these very perilous times. This measure that is being debated today obviously goes a long way to do that.

I wonder if he would care to comment on what he thinks the reaction of the Canadian public would be if in fact we did not exercise this kind of restraint.

[Stockwell Day, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I would say to the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Canadian Heritage that it is somewhat speculative.

However, if I can use past experience and past history, if a person were to come into this country who was not a Canadian citizen or a permanent resident and perpetrated some awful deed that resulted in extensive damage to property or in fact injury or death to Canadians and it was later determined that Canadian authorities knew the person was dangerous and did nothing, I would suggest that the government of the day would be quite rightly hauled upon the carpet by the citizens and by the opposition members for why it did not take action in allowing somebody who was deemed to be dangerous to be strolling freely about the country.

[Blair Wilson, Liberal, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC]

Mr. Speaker, before I start I want to say how deeply disturbed I am with the words of the minister and the tack he has taken with respect of the lack of seriousness of the case at the correctional institute which is before us. He talked a little bit like I was watching The Shopping Channel, discussing bedrooms and tables and chairs. I do not think he fully appreciates or understands the seriousness of the matter before us.

The immigration committee, which I am proud a member of, visited these three men who are in dire straits, in dire consequences. They have been on a hunger strike now for over 80 days. The men have lost upwards of 45 to 50 pounds. Their lives are in jeopardy and that is one of the main reasons why the committee chose to travel by bus to Kingston to discuss the situation with these men, to discuss the problems they have with respect to their hunger strike, and to talk to the correctional officers and management of that facility to see how we can break this impasse.

This debate in the House of Commons and before Canadians is part and parcel of doing just that, of breaking the impasse. It is to try to save the lives of three men and at the same time try to adjust the justice system in Canada.

If I break down the issue and the motion before us, two basic issues come to light. One of the issues that is not being specifically discussed at the Kingston correctional holding facility is the issue of fairness of the security certificates. These three men are not dealing with the issue of the security certificates per se, they are dealing with the conditions they are being held in.

Parliament and Canadians want us to open up this debate in order to talk about some things of substance. The substantive issue is the fairness of the security certificates and how it balances the rights of the individual with the safety of the collective society.

We have had these men incarcerated for six and a half years, two years of which some of these men were held in solitary confinement. The immigration committee visited Kingston last October and actually went into the cells that some of these men were held in solitary confinement and, Mr. Speaker, you would not want to spend five minutes in solitary confinement in the cells that we witnessed, let alone two years.

The question is one of balancing the civil liberties of individuals and our human rights versus the safety of Canadians. These men have been held for six and a half years without being charged of any criminal offence, nor have they been convicted of any crimes.

The third important issue to remember is that they are being held indefinitely without knowing the evidence the government may or may not have on them. So they are not, nor are their lawyers, privy to the qualitative nature or the quantitative nature of the evidence against them, yet they are being held indefinitely in this institution.

We can argue if our system is fair and just when we have a law on the books that allows the minister to incarcerate three individuals for six and a half years without them being charged of any offence, without knowing any of the evidence against them. We can make that system much better and I do not know why the Conservative government or the minister is dragging their heels on this. Perhaps it is to garner favour with the Bush administration and to continue to champion against human rights and against Canadians. But the system can be made better.

The immigration committee has put recommendations out there. We have heard witnesses. One of them is to put a special prosecutor in place so that there is a mechanism by which those who have been accused can actually see and test the evidence against them. Right now there is no ability for these three men to test the evidence against them. I would call on the minister to initiate changes, to make the system better, and to make it safer for Canadians and balance the rights of individuals.

I will speak more to the point on the issue before us today relating to the conditions of the detainees. We were there and they are in dire straits. They have a number of grievances they have filed with the process.

The difficulty that they have, though, is that they are caught in between. They are not criminals on the one hand. They are being held through the immigration process as detainees. They are not criminals. They are detainees and because of that Canada has to deal with them in a different way.

We have to decide, are we going to hold them in maximum security, minimum security or medium security? The question right now is: How is this process managed? I would say that the minister is managing it irresponsibly because he is not in tune to the issues of the day and the problems that these men have.

I could list a few of the problems. They are in the motion here before us today. One problem is that the detainees are not allowed to have close family visits. Another one is that they are not allowed to have access to the canteen facilities. A third problem is that they are subject to daily head counts. My goodness, there are three of them in this cell. Any guard or any person going in there can count, “one, two, three” and realize that they are there. Yet, they are subject to daily head counts. Another grievance is that they are not being allowed to practise their religious beliefs. It goes on and on.

When I spoke to these three men I said that I did not want to try and deal with each one of their grievances one at a time. They have a list of 20 to 25 grievances. I believe a better approach is to take a systemic solution to what we have here. The problem we have is that there is no grievance mechanism for these men to deal with. The same shoe is on the management and staff there. They are used to maximum security penitentiaries where they deal with things one way. This is a new situation that requires new policies and procedures.

A new policy and procedure that we have put forward to the Department of Citizenship and Immigration is that an ombudsman be put in place to hear the grievances of these three men and deal with the issues one at a time as they come up. It is a common sense solution to a problem.

There are three men that are on a hunger strike right now because they cannot exercise their religious freedom, visit with their families, and have the other rights and privileges that normal prisoners who have been charged with crimes are allowed. We have a situation here that is untenable. We have to work as parliamentarians in the House of Commons to deal specifically with the solutions that are at hand.

The motion before the House deals with that solution. I would urge members from all parties to vote in favour of this motion and deal with the solutions to this problem.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I applaud the work that my colleague from the Liberals has undertaken and that the citizenship and immigration committee has taken in terms of trying to get some reason and sense into this issue and hopefully a resolution of it. I would like to indicate that I think all of us in the House appreciate the work that they are doing.

I would ask the member if he could address specific comments to the policy issue here that I see as glaring. On one hand we have individuals who are being detained in a grossly contrary fashion to the normal process in this country. They are in a process that does not allow them to make full defence, that does not even share with them what they are actually accused of in full detail, and some of them are now faced with the prospect of staying in custody on an indefinite basis. That is the situation in which they are detained. On the other hand, the detainees are not given even the same level of consideration and basic rights as are people who have been convicted of murder and other serious offences.

Would the member make some comments on what seems to be such an offensive juxtaposition of those two statuses?