Debates of Feb. 13th, 2007

Finance

[Brian Pallister, Conservative, Portage—Lisgar, MB]

Mr. Speaker, I have the honour to present, in both official languages, the tenth report of the Standing Committee on Finance, on Bill C-294, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (sports and recreation programs).

I would like to congratulate the member for Prince Albert on being able to advance this private member's bill through committee. I think all members of this place share in respecting the diligence and effort that is required to advance a private member's bill in this place. The member has shown great persistence in doing so. We congratulate him as we present this report to you, Mr. Speaker, and to our colleagues.

Citizenship and Immigration

[Bill Siksay, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

Mr. Speaker, it is with a sense of urgency that I move concurrence in the 10th report of the Standing Committee on Citizenship and Immigration. The report is entitled, “Issues raised by the use of security certificates issued under the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act”.

The report deals with a motion that was passed at the standing committee on Tuesday, February 6. I will read the text of that motion in the report to give folks a sense of the issue. The motion reads:

Whereas the Standing Committee on Citizenship and Immigration has a mandate to consider issues raised by the use of security certificates under the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act;

Whereas the Standing Committee on Citizenship and Immigration has visited the Kingston Immigration Holding Centre (KIHC), where three of those subject to security certificate are currently held;

Whereas a life-threatening hunger strike by KIHC detainees Mohammad Mahjoub (day 75), Mahmoud Jaballah (64) and Hassan Almrei (64) has long passed a critical stage;

Whereas a key complaint of the detainees is the lack of an independent ombudsman, a concern originally flagged by the 2005/2006 annual report of the Office of the Correctional Investigator that found "the detainees...no longer have the benefits and legal protections afforded by ombudsman legislation."

Therefore be it resolved that the Standing Committee on Citizenship and Immigration:

a. acknowledge the emergency nature of the hunger strike and open discussion with regard to a resolution;

b. call on the Government of Canada and the Minister of Public Safety and the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration to mandate the Office of the Correctional Investigator, which has jurisdiction over all federal inmates except for those held at the Kingston Immigration Holding Centre, to now assume jurisdiction over the KIHC, investigate current and ongoing complaints of those currently on hunger strike, specifically urgently addressing issues such as:

1) Medical attention in the living unit by Medical Licensed Practitioners namely doctors in the living unit;

2) Detainees be released before dawn from their cells in order for them to be able to observe religious prayers as called by their religion;

3) They be allowed conjugal visits as it is offered to inmates;

4) They be allowed to access canteen facilities adhering to their religious beliefs;

5) Daily head count should be done away with immediately;

6) When transferred from the living unit to the administration building, be also accompanied by a supervisor from Correctional Services Canada;

And prepare an independent set of recommendations for resolution of said grievances.

And be it further resolved that the Minister of Public Safety and the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration be asked to respond urgently in writing, to members of this Committee, outlining the Department’s actions in light of the passage of this motion.

And be it further resolved that these protocols be put in place on a permanent basis in order to deal with these detainees and any future such cases.

And be it further resolved that the Chair of the Standing Committee on Citizenship and Immigration report this motion to the House of Commons.

That is the report and the motion that was passed by the Standing Committee on Citizenship and Immigration. I should also note that a similar motion, not quite as detailed, but also calling for the Correctional Investigator of Canada to have jurisdiction over the Kingston Immigration Holding Centre was recently passed by the Standing Committee on Public Safety.

I am very concerned about the situation at the Kingston Immigration Holding Centre, or KIHC, which is attached to Millhaven Institution, a maximum security federal penitentiary. KIHC is a maximum security prison within a maximum security prison specially constructed to detain those held under security certificate provisions of the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act.

That section of the act can be used to detain those people who are subject to deportation order who are suspected of a serious crime related to terrorism or organized crime. There are currently six men who are subject to security certificates, three of whom, Mohammad Mahjoub, Mahmoud Jaballah and Hassan Almrei, who are being held at the Kingston Immigration Holding Centre.

Three others have been released on bail subject to some of the most severe conditions ever imposed in Canada, which, for Mohamed Harkat and Adil Charkaoui, amount to house arrest for them and their families. There is no downplaying the kind of conditions that the men who have been released on bail face and the difficulties that it means for them and their families. They are very strict and severe bail conditions.

All the men held at the Kingston Immigration Holding Centre and the men released on bail have been held without ever having been charged, without ever having been convicted and without knowing the evidence against them. They have been detained for over five and six years.

I do not believe there is a place in Canada for indefinite detention without charge or conviction. I believe that it is a fundamental violation of human rights and civil liberties and flies in the face of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

The issue has been argued before the Supreme Court and a decision is imminent.

However, I believe the security certificate provisions of the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act should be repealed and I have a motion on the order paper to that effect.

If the Criminal Code does not allow for serious crimes related to terrorism or organized crime to be addressed, then the Criminal Code should be fixed. If the police and security agencies do not have the resources to properly investigate such serious crimes, then that issue should be addressed and the problem fixed.

However, to suspend due process, to detain indefinitely without charge or conviction, is wrong. No one here believes that we should let such crimes go uninvestigated and unpunished but to suspend our whole justice process, our whole court process and all our legal processes is unconscionable and, I believe, unconstitutional.

There is a serious problem, given the circumstances of these men. It is not possible for Canada to deport them to the countries where they are citizens, namely, in the case of the detainees in Kingston, to Egypt and Syria. We know, unfortunately, that torture is practised commonly in both countries for folks who are detained or imprisoned. Canada does not and should not deport people to face torture or death. By accusing these men of somehow being related to terrorism, allegations that have never been proven in a court of law, we have set them up even further as targets for torture should they be deported back to Syria or Egypt.

The whole question of our obligations under the international agreement on torture is a very serious one. I think there is absolutely no excuse for Canada to deport people to face torture or death.

Indefinite detention without charge or conviction should not be a possibility in Canada. Deportation to torture or death must never be an option for Canada.

It is ironic that in the past couple of weeks we have seen six former Canadian foreign ministers write an op-ed piece on the website of The Globe and Mail that criticized the current government for not publicly criticizing the Americans for the abuses happening to the detainees at Guantanamo Bay. They pointed out that these people had not been charged or convicted and were subject to secret trials. They were criticizing the Government of Canada for not speaking out against American policies when those exact same kinds of policies are applied here in Canada. They criticized our government for not speaking out about what was happening at Guantanamo Bay when those exact same circumstances are happening here and when some of the men detained here are on a very serious hunger strike.

It is unfortunate that those former foreign ministers did not write about Canadian policies and criticize Canada for taking exactly the same kind of measures that the United States has taken, especially when the level of frustration of the detainees here has led them to take the very difficult step of going on a hunger strike.

I thought it was also strange to see in Parliament 10 days ago or so the foreign affairs critic for the opposition take on the government and the foreign affairs minister and criticize him for not speaking out about the abuses at Guantanamo Bay. Again, nothing was mentioned about Canada having exactly the same policies and the fact that three of the people detained under those provisions here in Canada are on a very serious and long term hunger strike.

That is the background to the current situation at the Kingston Immigration Holding Centre. The three men who are currently detained there, Mohammad Mahjoub, Mahmoud Jaballah and Hassan Almrei, are on a hunger strike. Mr. Mahjoub has been on a hunger strike for 82 days and Mr. Jaballah and Mr. Almrei for 71 days each. This is a serious situation.

I think everyone recognizes that the hunger strike has now reached a very critical phase, which is why the Standing Committee on Citizenship and Immigration made an emergency visit to the Kingston Immigration Holding Centre yesterday to visit the men who are held there.

I think I can safely say that all the members who attended are very concerned for the health of the detainees. I am particularly concerned for Mr. Jaballah and Mr. Mahjoub, both of whom I believe are now at risk of life threatening consequences for their hunger strike.

All hunger strikes are extremely risky, especially those of this duration. These men have had no solid food in that entire period. At this time Mr. Mahjoub is taking only water and Mr. Jaballah and Mr. Almrei are taking water and regular orange juice.

To put this in context, Dr. Michael Peel, writing in the British Medical Journal, has recommended that hunger strikers who have lost over 10% of their body weight should be monitored daily. Both Mr. Mahjoub and Mr. Jaballah indicate that they have lost 45 to 50 pounds, putting them at or over the 20% mark.

It is still not clear as to whether daily monitoring of their health is taking place, and that has been one of the difficulties of the situation. Health professionals, often nurses from Millhaven Institution, present daily at the Kingston Immigration Holding Centre, but they have not examined the men daily due to one of the key issues of the hunger strike.

I also want to point out that the well known hunger strikers at the Maze prison in Belfast in the early 1980s died after hunger strikes of 49 to 61 days.

It should be very clear from these facts that this hunger strike at the Kingston Immigration Holding Centre has reached a very serious stage. I do not believe that Canadians want to see men detained without charge, without conviction and without knowing the evidence against them die in detention, but I feel very strongly that we are soon approaching that kind of possibility.

What are the key issues that Mr. Mahjoub, Mr. Jaballah and Mr. Almrei want to see resolved? A key is the need for an independent grievance procedure. Currently there is a three step internal process which has not worked well to resolve all issues.

As detainees at the Kingston Immigration Holding Centre, the men have no access to the Correctional Investigator of Canada, whose job is to act as an ombudsperson for prisoners in federal correctional institutions. When they were detained at the provincial facility in Ontario, the Metro West detention facility, they had access to the Ontario ombudsperson's office, but they lost that when they were transferred to the Kingston Immigration Holding Centre in April 2006.

The Correctional Investigator is essentially the federal prison ombudsperson. He has a mandate under part III of the Corrections and Conditional Release Act to act as an ombudsman for federal offenders. The primary function of the office is to investigate and bring resolution to individual offender complaints. As well, the office has a responsibility to review and make recommendations on the Correctional Service's policies and procedures associated with the areas of individual complaints to ensure that systemic areas of concern are identified and appropriately addressed.

I would like to quote from the Correctional Investigator's last annual report, for 2005-06. In that report, Mr. Sapers said:

The second policy issue that concerns my Office is the situation of individuals detained pursuant to national security certificates. A national security certificate is a removal order issued by the Government of Canada against permanent residents and foreign nationals who are inadmissible to Canada on grounds of national security. A recent decision has been made by the federal government to transfer security certificate detainees held under the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act from Ontario facilities to a federal facility, pending their removal from Canada.

In Ontario facilities, the detainees could legally file complaints regarding the conditions of confinement with the Office of the Ontario Ombudsman. That Office had the jurisdiction to investigate complaints filed by the detainees pursuant to the Ontario Ombudsman Act.

The Immigration Holding Centre has been built in Kingston within the perimeter fence of Millhaven Penitentiary. The Canadian Border Service Agency entered into a service contract with the Correctional Service to provide the Border Service Agency with the physical detention facility and with security staff. The Border Service Agency has a contract in place with the Red Cross to monitor the care and treatment of detainees in immigration holding centres, including the new Kingston holding centre. The Red Cross, a non-government organization, has no enabling legislation to carry out a role as an oversight agency.

The transfer of detainees from Ontario facilities to the Kingston holding centre means that the detainees will lose the benefit of a rigorous ombudsman's legislative framework to file complaints about their care and humane treatment while in custody. The Office of the Correctional Investigator is concerned that the detainees will no longer have the benefits and legal protections afforded by ombudsman legislation. Pursuant to the Optional Protocol to the Convention against Torture, a non-profit organization with no legislative framework, such as the Red Cross, is unlikely to meet the protocol's requirement for domestic oversight.

I believe that the loss of what the Correctional Investigator called the “rigorous ombudsman's legislative framework to file complaints about their care and humane treatment while in custody” has led us to the situation of the hunger strike. I also believe that the government and the Minister of Public Safety should immediately move to appoint the Correctional Investigator to meet with the men and find a solution to the hunger strike and a resolution to their concerns. That is what the motion from the standing committee has called for.

The minister has said that he is unable to respond to the specific issues raised by the detainees due to the fact that they have court actions under way. That may be true, but I believe the minister has an obligation to make sure that someone has a mandate to resolve the hunger strike.

This step that has been recommended by the Standing Committee on Citizenship and Immigration would allow a resolution. I think it is a very helpful suggestion to appoint the Correctional Investigator, and is one that is workable, but it must be undertaken urgently. The decision needs to be made today and that mandate extended today.

There are many issues that must be addressed at the Kingston Immigration Holding Centre. These men have been detained for over five and six years and have never had a private family visit or a conjugal visit with their spouses. Trailer visits are possible for convicted criminals at federal institutions, but no provision has been made for these detainees, who have never been convicted of any crime, to have this time with their families.

Another key issue is the restrictions placed on their religious practice. They have requested that they be allowed to rise and shower in time for their morning prayer, but this request has been denied. They have also complained that loud music from the guards' room interferes with their prayer.

Allegations of harassment by some of the guards at KIHC must also be resolved. This situation has led to a request by the detainees that a supervisor always be present when they are transferred between the two buildings at KIHC. Supervisors have often been refused, thereby limiting the men's ability to have medical checkups and treatment, visits with family and access to the gym, and to meet with the media.

There are many administrative issues that also need to be addressed. I think they are issues of petty harassment, frankly, made to make the daily lives of these men inconvenient and unpleasant.

Why, for instance, in an institution that holds only three detainees who can be observed 24 hours a day, are formal standing counts required three times a day? Why are they required to wear a prison uniform when being transferred between the two buildings of KIHC?

Why are they not allowed to dial their own telephone calls? Why, unlike prisoners held at other institutions, can they not cook their own meals? Why are not more culturally appropriate foods available to them in the canteen?

English is a second language for all of the detainees, so why are interpreters not provided to them when they need to deal with important issues to ensure clarity? And why is there no programming of any kind for the detainees?

All of these issues need to be addressed.

The situation at the Kingston Immigration Holding Centre is very serious. The hunger strike by the security certificate detainees has reached a very serious stage. The government and the Minister of Public Safety must take immediate steps to find a solution. Appointing the Correctional Investigator to meet with the detainees, investigate their grievances and make recommendations for solutions will make an important difference.

Detention without charge, without conviction and without knowing the evidence against one remains a serious violation of civil liberties and human rights in Canada, but leaving those detained under security certificate provisions with no independent process to resolve their grievances regarding specific conditions of their detention is also unfair and unjust and has forced the detainees to take the only action they have at their disposal, that action of a hunger strike.

We cannot let people die in custody in Canada because we were unwilling to solve specific problems related to their detention. The government and the minister must act today before it is too late.

I think the concurrence motion in the report from the committee offers a workable and helpful solution for this situation. I would urge all members to support concurrence in this report.

[Omar Alghabra, Liberal, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

Mr. Speaker, first I want to congratulate the hon. member on his speech and his compassion. This is an issue of great importance to all Canadians. We cannot live with the guilt of letting any of these detainees die. We must deal with this issue with the greatest sense of urgency.

Yesterday the member and I were on the trip to the detention centre. It was very difficult not to observe the fact that no Conservative committee members were with us on the trip. I would like to ask my colleague why he thinks Conservative members of the committee were not there.

[Bill Siksay, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I know the member is very concerned about this issue and has raised the hunger strike in the House in other contexts.

I do not want to speculate about why some members were not able to be in Kingston yesterday. I do not think that is the important issue today.

The important issue today is finding a non-partisan solution to this very serious problem. That is why I think calling on the government to extend the mandate of the Correctional Investigator to find a solution, to speak with the detainees and make recommendations about their circumstances and the specific conditions of their detention, is the most helpful way out of this difficult situation, both for the government and for the detainees. That merits very serious consideration by everyone in all corners of this House.

I note that the chair of the committee, a government member, did travel with us. He actually took the initiative to make sure the committee was able to travel to Kingston back in October when we made our visit there and also on this most recent trip. I know that he is very committed to understanding the situation at the Kingston Immigration Holding Centre and to finding a resolution to this very difficult situation.

I do not think this is a partisan concern today. Men's lives are at risk. Men's lives are threatened. I think we need to find a workable way out of the circumstances we are in. I think the Correctional Investigator of Canada has the right skills, the right kind of mandate and the right experience. I believe that the possibility of extending his mandate to cover the Kingston Immigration Holding Centre is something that the government could accomplish fairly easily.

[Catherine Bell, NDP, Vancouver Island North, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I also would like to thank my hon. colleague for his passionate concern for the security certificate detainees in the Kingston Penitentiary. His ongoing work on this file is commendable. I would also like to thank him for raising this issue so that all Canadians can understand the travesty that is being inflicted upon these men.

I want to reiterate what a shameful moment this is in Canadian history. People are being held without knowing what the charges are. They are being held without the benefit of any assistance and without adequate provisions such as appropriate foods, their religious ceremonies, and all those things that make life a little more bearable in a place where no one wants to find themselves.

I want to let my hon. colleague know that people in my riding of Vancouver Island North have taken up the issue as well and, in support of these men, have started their own hunger strike. This is happening across the country.

I wonder if the hon. member could let the House and those people in my riding know about the work that he has been doing and how long he has been working on this issue to bring an end to this shameful moment in Canadian history.

[Bill Siksay, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

Mr. Speaker, many people have done work on this issue in this place over the years. Certainly in this corner the member for Halifax has been very outspoken on the whole question of the security certificate detainees and that process. The member for Windsor—Tecumseh as our justice spokesperson has also been very involved in the issue of security certificates and the difficulties they cause for due process and justice in Canada. Many people, including people in other parties, have been very strongly outspoken on this issue.

There is a large grassroots movement with activists across the country who have been acting in direct support of the detainees, the men at Kingston, but also the men who have been released on bail. There are strong local committees in all the communities where the men who have been released on bail live to support them in coping with the very difficult circumstances that their bail conditions put forward for them.

There are many people across Canada who are undertaking a voluntary hunger fast to support the men at Kingston. Some people are engaging in rotating fasts. That is a very important step as well.

Certainly the campaign to stop secret trials in Canada has been instrumental in organizing people and making sure Canadians know about the circumstances of the security certificate detainees.

This issue is also gaining some international notice. I understand that yesterday in the Philippines some activists presented their concerns to the Canadian embassy in Manila. I understand that today in New York City there will be an action at the Canadian consulate. Folks who live in New York City are going to express their concerns about what is happening here in Canada and at the Kingston Immigration Holding Centre.

Many people around the world have noticed and are concerned about the lack of due process, the lack of a fair trial, the use of secret trials and secret evidence, detention without charge and conviction here in Canada. It behooves us to move immediately on this piece which will try to address some of the specific concerns about the detention conditions at the Kingston Immigration Holding Centre.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake, MB]

Mr. Speaker, I want to thank the hon. member for his compassion and concern about this issue which is facing the public and this House.

He recently toured the centre with members from all parties. I am wondering if he could elaborate on whether he saw any available food in the facility. I know that the individuals are hunger striking, but have measures been taken so that at least there is food there if they choose to eat it?

[Bill Siksay, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

Mr. Speaker, food is available there. When the committee was meeting, the food pack from Millhaven penitentiary where food for the detainees is prepared was delivered to the residential unit, but it sat there, as it has for 70 and 80 days. No one opened it. Nobody looked at it. No one ate anything out of it.

There is food in the cupboards. The detainees are allowed to purchase food. The cupboards in fact are well stocked with food. Publicly last week the Minister of Public Safety took great pains to describe the contents of the refrigerator in the common area. It contains items that have been purchased by the detainees.

The reality is the detainees have not eaten. They are not eating and they are not planning on eating. There could be all the food in the world, but if people are not eating it, it does not do them any good.

These men feel as though they have been forced to take this action. They feel absolutely powerless to have any of the issues that are of concern to them addressed. They feel they have absolutely been forced to take this step to seek resolution of some of the issues that they have raised. All the food in the world could be available, but if people are on a hunger strike it does not matter.

I would like to stress that for the minister to say that the refrigerator was loaded, it begs the question that without some kind of process to resolve this hunger strike, without some independent person representing the government and with the authority to go in and find a solution, to speak to the men and to make recommendations, this hunger strike is not going to end. The consequences of that will be terrible to consider. That weighs very heavily on my conscience and I know it weighs very heavily on the conscience of many Canadians.

I do not think any Canadian wants to see someone die in custody in Canada, especially someone who has never been charged, never been convicted and never been given the opportunity to respond to the evidence held against that person. That seems so outside the realm of anything that most Canadians would contemplate that I think we have to move urgently to find some resolution to this circumstance.

I must stress that the option that has been provided by the committee to appoint the official who does that kind of work in our federal prison system, who has that expertise and who has shown a personal interest in having his mandate extended to cover the Kingston Immigration Holding Centre is a very honourable direction to take. It is one that will give the government excellent advice and good options. It also gives the detainees access to someone with a proven track record and the ability to hear their concerns and make appropriate recommendations.

This is an absolutely crucial recommendation for all members of the House to support. We need to support this recommendation today and encourage the government to make those arrangements today. This is an emergency. We do not have the luxury of time. Time is not on our side any longer.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Public Safety]

Mr. Speaker, I wish to thank the member opposite who brought the motion before the House as it gives me an opportunity to shed light on the origins and operations of the Kingston Immigration Holding Centre.

First, I would like to highlight that Canada is known internationally as a welcoming and compassionate country. Each year we admit more than 95 million people to our country, including more than 200,000 permanent residents and many thousands of refugee claimants. Canadians treasure their open, democratic and compassionate society. They welcome visitors and immigrants who seek to experience Canada's natural beauty, freedom and opportunity.

Canadians also insist on vigilance against individuals and organizations who would exploit our generosity and openness. Canadians do not want our doors to be open to people who endanger our national security and the safety of our communities.

I cannot stress enough how important it is to understand that in protecting the Canadian public against threats to their safety and security, the use of security certificates is an exceptional measure that is used rarely. In fact, only 28 security certificates have been issued over the past 16 years. This represents an average of less than two per year.

The point is that this measure under the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act is used rarely and only in cases where individuals who are not Canadian citizens are inadmissible to Canada on the grounds of security, violating human or international rights, serious criminality or organized criminality.

I would like to highlight that the Federal Court has determined that the security certificates issued against each of the individuals being held at the Kingston Immigration Holding Centre are reasonable and that these individuals continue to be a danger to national security or the safety of any person. That is why they remain in detention. These individuals are being held for purposes of removal and not rehabilitation.

The creation of the Kingston Immigration Holding Centre came about to address previous concerns regarding detention conditions at provincial facilities. The Federal Court and the province of Ontario expressed concerns about the appropriateness of conditions at Ontario correctional facilities for individuals subject to security certificates.

In October 2005 the Government of Canada committed to move individuals subject to a security certificate to a federal facility within four to six months. It resulted in the establishment of the Kingston Immigration Holding Centre. This was a coordinated action between Correctional Service of Canada, the Canada Border Services Agency, the RCMP, the Canadian Security and Intelligence Service, Citizenship and Immigration Canada, medical services branch, Justice Canada, ministries of the government of Ontario and Kingston, Ontario municipal authorities.

This brand new facility known as the Kingston Immigration Holding Centre was opened in April 2006. It is located adjacent to the grounds of the Millhaven Institution at Bath, Ontario just west of Kingston.

One of the considerations in building the facility in the Kingston area was the facilitation of family visits for the individuals who would be held there. At the time there were four people being held in Toronto and Ottawa facilities and Millhaven represented a central point between the two cities.

In addition, it was top of mind for the government to provide secure accommodation for the individuals subject to security certificates while making sure that there were no additional risks to staff or the nearby community and more broadly to the Canadian public.

I would like to remind the House that these individuals pose a threat to national security and public safety. The courts so far have supported the Government of Canada's position that they must remain in detention until they are removed from Canada.

I do understand the member opposite who put forward this motion wishes to address specific issues relating to the detention conditions at the Kingston Immigration Holding Centre. Regrettably, I am prevented from addressing these issues as they are part of a legal action filed in Federal Court last week by counsel representing the three individuals subject to security certificates being held in Kingston.

Having said that, I will outline the redress process for those being held at the Kingston Immigration Holding Centre. First, I would like to point out that the Canada Border Services Agency applies national detention standards for all those detained under immigration legislation.

Let it be known that all individuals subject to security certificates being held at the Kingston Immigration Holding Centre have the right to file a complaint to be heard and achieve resolution. In fact, the centre's redress process allows individuals subject to a security certificate to file a complaint about any situations with which they are not satisfied.

The first step in the process attempts to achieve resolution through dialogue between the individual filing the complaint and the Kingston Immigration Holding Centre detention supervisor or the holding centre manager. Should the issue remain unresolved or if the individual filing the complaint is not satisfied with the response, he or she can file a grievance with either the director of the Kingston Immigration Holding Centre or the director of the Canada Border Services Agency, Northern Ontario region, depending on the issue to be resolved.

If not satisfied with the response provided at the first level, a second level grievance may be filed with the Canada Border Services Agency regional director general or the Correctional Service Canada regional deputy commissioner.

Parallel to this is a grievance process for health care issues. These are referred to the health services unit at Millhaven Institution and reviewed there by the chief of health services. The regional administrative health services at Correctional Service Canada can review decisions on health issues taken by the chief health services at Millhaven.

The third and final step in this process, should the individual filing the grievance not be satisfied with the response provided by the second level authority, is to bring the grievance to the vice-president of operations at the Canada Border Services Agency, the assistant commissioner of correctional operations and programs at Correctional Service Canada, and the director general of health services at Correctional Service Canada.

At this point, there is a review of the previous decision. They will either provide confirmation of that decision or a new decision on the particular grievance. This process provides individuals being held at the Kingston Immigration Holding Centre with three levels at which they can raise their concerns and achieve resolution. All complaints are taken seriously and every effort is made to resolve the complaint as quickly as possible. In fact, the redress process has been used at the Kingston Immigration Holding Centre, and it works.

I thank the member opposite for providing this opportunity to talk about the Kingston Immigration Holding Centre and the redress process.

[Bill Siksay, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the parliamentary secretary's intervention in the debate today. I also appreciate that the government feels some constraint regarding its ability to address specifically the issues that are on the table at the Kingston Immigration Centre.

However, I want to ask about the policy of the grievance procedure.

The parliamentary secretary has just outlined the three stage internal grievance process that is available to detainees. I appreciate that there is the internal process, but it is an internal one and that is one of the problems with it. It is conducted by officials against whom the complaint is made, essentially. There is no outside look, or impartial look or independent look at it, which I think is very necessary.

In the federal penitentiary system we have the correctional investigator who has a specific mandate to be that kind of ombudsperson for the folks who are detained in Canadian federal penitentiaries. This person has that skill set, that understanding of those kinds of circumstances and abilities to resolve those circumstances.

Does the parliamentary secretary not think it is a reasonable policy change to seek to extend the mandate of the correctional investigator to cover the Kingston Immigration Holding Centre, something the correctional investigator, in his annual report, has suggested would be a most appropriate course of action.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

Mr. Speaker, the difference is that the inmates of the Kingston Penitentiary are people who have been convicted of crimes. They are there for a different purpose. Rehabilitation is certainly one of the issues, but they are there for a defined length of time under sentence of the courts.

These individuals are being held in an immigration facility for the purpose of removal from Canada. Rehabilitation, as I already indicated, is not part of the process. The facility has frequently been described by many in the House as a three-sided cell. They are held there until they are removed from Canada. They are free to go to any country that will accept them. They can leave tomorrow if that is their desire.

It is a totally different process than the people who are held at Kingston for a pre-determined length of time under sentence of the courts. These individuals are not there under sentence of the court. They are being held there for removal from our country.

[Andrew Telegdi, Liberal, Kitchener—Waterloo, ON]

Mr. Speaker, we are dealing basically with two issues. The first issue is the legitimacy of the security certificates. The other issue is the need for us to have reasonable policies on detention.

It is important to note that security certificates apply to people who are legally in Canada. The government has said that these people who have no right to be here, but security certificates apply to people who have every right to be here. This has to be kept in mind.

It would have been fortunate to have the full committee present yesterday, but all opposition members of the committee were there. What I and committee members cannot fathom or understand is how the parliamentary secretary can say that those convicted are there for a definite time and that some people are there forever. We can name those we do not want to see get out, and they will never get out.

The fact is these people have not been charged with any crime. They have been denied their basic human rights under the legal section of the charter. If the parliamentary secretary does not know that, then he should resign from his position. He should not be representing that position in his portfolio, if he does not know the basics of sections 7 to 14, the legal section of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. While the government can make the case that these circumstances are extraordinary and that it will forgo these rights, we have to be very conscious of the fact that they do not have any of the legal rights that Canadians and everybody else have under the charter.

How can the parliamentary secretary deny that there be a third party investigation on complaints from the inmates? It is such a simple request. How can he justify that?

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member has brought up a number of issues, some on which the courts have already ruled. The Federal Court has determined that the security certificates issued against these individuals are reasonable and that the individuals continue to be a danger to national security or the safety of any person. That is why they are in Kingston. It is not because the government wants them to be there.

The hon. member knows that these individuals have been held in custody for quite some time. They were there before January of last year when our government was formed. They were there a few years before that.

The whole issue is one that has developed over time. This could have been in place if the hon. member and his party felt that way three years ago. Where we are now is reasonable. These men have a redress process within the organization. They have also now applied to the Federal Court for additional redress that they believe is owed to them.

With all due respect, I believe the proper process is in place. The proper facility is there. As I have already indicated, it is a three-sided cell. These men are welcome to leave the country at any time and go to a country that will accept them. They would then be free and clear to go wherever they wished to go.

[Peggy Nash, NDP, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

Mr. Speaker, as I have listen to the debate this morning, I have to shake my head and remind myself that we are talking about a situation in Canada, where people are being held without charge. They have no right to defend themselves and there is no independent process to investigate any of their complaints. These men are protesting what has become intolerable treatment, clearly to the point of risking their very lives.

We all know about the American detention centre at Guantanamo Bay. Many of us have spoke out, deploring that terrible situation. Yet in Canada we have a situation where people are being detained under security certificates with no idea why they are being detained. We are allowing a situation to take place when these men could lose their lives. We are not even offering them the opportunity for an independent investigation into the situation. To hear the parliamentary secretary say that there is food there, that they can eat the food available to them, or that the door is open and they can leave the country, is, quite frankly, shocking.

Would he justify to Canadians how he can allow this situation to continue? How can he allow the health of these men to deteriorate day after day without his government intervening? How can he sleep at night and allow this to continue?

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I will clarify a couple of points made by the hon. member.

I did not say there was food there and they were welcome to eat it. I did say that it is a three-sided cell and they can leave the country.

More important, we have to accept what the courts have said. The courts have ruled on this a number of times. This is an immigration holding facility. Those people are deemed to be a danger to Canada. That is the responsibility of the Parliament of Canada, all the members of the House, and to Canadians as a whole. The courts continue to say that they are a threat to the security and safety of Canadians. That is why they are being held there. It is not to be punitive or anything else.

As I have already said, this is a welcoming country. We allow millions of people to visit every year, 200,000 come here as permanent citizens or landed residents. Canada is a very open country, but we do have to say no to some people.

In this case we have three people who have been ordered to be deported from the country. It is fair and reasonable what is happening in the big picture. The whole issue has been debated in the courts many times and the courts have ruled that it is appropriate.

The matter is again before the courts. These individuals have utilized the Canadian court system and have launched another challenge. Therefore, I think the courts will be the final arbiter of it.

[Omar Alghabra, Liberal, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to speak to this motion. I want to begin by thanking my hon. colleague, the member for Burnaby—Douglas, for his committed work and compassion on this file.

This is a very serious matter. We have in front of us three detainees who have been on a hunger strike for at least 70 days; in fact, one of them has been on a hunger strike for over 80 days. Unless we act, unless we respond, we could have a tragedy on our hands. We must accept the seriousness of the situation and deal with it with the utmost urgency and compassion.

Let me very clear about the motion that we are discussing today. This is not an issue of the security certificate. There are a lot of question marks about the security certificates. There are a lot of question marks about the procedures that are within the security certificates. There are question marks about the evidence, about access to testing that evidence. There are plenty of question marks about the security certificate procedure. But that is not what we are debating today. We are debating a very concise and clear motion.

The motion states:

Therefore be it resolved that the Standing Committee on Citizenship and Immigration:

a) acknowledge the emergency nature of the hunger strike and open discussion with regard to a resolution;

b) call on the Government of Canada and the Minister of Public Safety and the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration to mandate the Office of the Correctional Investigator, which has jurisdiction over all federal inmates except for those held at the Kingston Immigration Holding Centre, to now assume jurisdiction over the KIHC, investigate current and ongoing complaints of those currently on hunger strike,--

Then it goes on to list six grievances that the detainees have been voicing and then the main reason for their hunger strike.

The motion is very specific. It is very clear and it offers a compromise. It offers a logical solution to addressing these issues. The last thing we want as Canadians, the last thing we want as members of Parliament, is to have a death on our hands because we refused to acknowledge or address some petty or simplistic conflicts that could be resolved easily. We must push the government to realize the seriousness of the situation and to act appropriately.

Members of the Standing Committee on Citizenship and Immigration visited the detainees at the centre yesterday. We spoke with the administrators before we met with the detainees and then we spoke with the administrators after our meeting with the detainees. We learned a lot.

We had the opportunity to speak in private with the detainees. We saw that they are visibly exhausted, that they are visibly tired. We heard their complaints. We saw that this is a very serious matter.

These individuals are not doing this for a publicity stunt. These individuals are serious and appear to be raising legitimate concerns.

The administrators also appeared to have been taking this issue seriously. They were willing to discuss the matter. They were willing to find resolutions, which I might add is a lot more than the government is providing today. The administrators were keen on finding a way to resolve this issue. We must put pressure on the government, on the executive, to find a way to deal with the situation.

These demands, these requests, are very logical and in fact do not contradict any of the laws. One of the answers that came out in the discussion that we had with the administrators yesterday was that IRPA was silent on how to deal with detainees. Therefore, there is no legislative framework. There are no legislative reasons not to apply the correctional commissioner to investigate these complaints.

In fact, we found that there appears to be some selectiveness in what rules to apply. On the one hand, they appear to be applying the rules that apply to the general population in prison but, for some reason, other rules do not apply because this is considered an immigration holding facility.

There appears to be a double standard here. We really need to think long and hard about what we are doing. We need to ensure that this does not extend into a tragic situation, that this does not lead to a death or a tragic outcome.

I join my colleague here today and I call on my colleagues in the House of Commons to support this motion. I ask members to vote in support of this motion and extend this reasonable proposal to have a correctional investigator look into these complaints and hold an independent inquiry.

I know that the parliamentary secretary has explained that there is a grievance process to deal with these grievances. The reality is that it is an internal process. As my hon. colleague has said, this does not provide for at least an appearance of objectivity.

We must appeal to both sides to have these issues handled objectively and independently. The executive cannot investigate itself or, obviously, there will be question marks about its judgment.

What is needed is an independent individual such as the correctional investigator. If the correctional investigator is unable, incapable or not allowed, then let us find someone else. I think it is very reasonable to appoint an independent observer and mediator to look into this matter.

In fact, the correctional investigator himself has said that the detainees no longer have the benefits and legal protections afforded by the ombudsman's legislation.

This is a serious matter. I know the detainees are probably watching the proceedings today. They are very interested in the discussion that goes on in the House. We must send a signal to the detainees that as Canadian lawmakers we are proud of our country and our laws. We must let the detainees know that we have a humanitarian side to our laws.

Even if we as members disagree on the nature of our laws, even if we are still debating security certificates in the courts or in Parliament, we can still be compassionate and address these humanitarian concerns.

Yesterday, when we met with the detainees, we did plead with them. We asked them to find an opportunity to end their hunger strike. We told them that Canadians are very interested in their case and concerned about the situation. We said that many of us in the House of Commons and other Canadians are doing whatever we can to have their concerns addressed. In the meantime we hope that the detainees find the opportunity to end their hunger strike, so that we do not end up with a tragedy.

I support the motion. I call on my colleagues from all sides of the House to support the motion. Hopefully, by doing so, we can illustrate to Canadians and to the detainees that we are serious about their concerns, and that we are doing whatever we can to address them.

[Penny Priddy, NDP, Surrey North, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I want to support both the motion of my colleague, the member for Burnaby—Douglas, and some of the comments made by the previous speaker. In my constituency of Surrey North there is a lot of concern being expressed in the papers and in phone calls to my office for Mohammad Mahjoub, Mahmoud Jaballah and Hassan Almrei.

I was picturing bringing together university students or people from democratic countries and sitting them around a table. I would then describe a situation of three people who have been held in jail for over five years, do not know what the charges are against them, do not have an advocate to ensure that they are safe and doing well, who are not allowed to pray according to their religion, and then I would ask this group of people from democratic countries where they think this might be happening in the world. I do not think they would say that this is happening in Canada. I do not think most people would even imagine in a country like Canada that there would be people who do not know the charges against them, are in jail, and are not even allowed to pray according to their religion.

I want to concur with the comments of the members who visited yesterday and what they have shared about the physical situation in which these men find themselves. We know that there is food. We understand that, but what other recourse have these men been given? They do not have an advocate. They have nowhere to take their grievances. They cannot even pray to the God of their understanding in a way that respects their religion.

I hope the House passes this motion quickly because we really may be in a situation of minutes or hours because their bodies are shutting down. From what people have said, they have lost large percentages of their body weight and they are listless. This means their bodies are shutting down to protect their vital organs, their hearts, lungs and brains. Fairly soon their kidneys will shut down and then their hearts. That is how people die during hunger strikes. We have seen that happen.

Not to know that it is at least being monitored on a daily basis, people would not believe in a country like Canada that could happen. People would name 10, 20, I cannot imagine how many other countries, but nobody would--

[The Deputy Speaker, NDP, Bill Blaikie]

Order, please. I am sorry but I have to give the hon. member for Mississauga—Erindale an opportunity to respond.

[Omar Alghabra, Liberal, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I am not really sure what the question was, but I can see that the hon. member is very passionate about this issue. She has expressed her concerns eloquently and passionately.

I want to assure her that I share many of her concerns. Just to avoid any confusion, while there are a lot of questions around the issue of the security certificates and that is of concern to many Canadians, and remove any excuses from any individual who wants to vote against this motion, we are not going to vote on this issue today. What we are voting on is providing these detainees access to a process that affords them a fair and objective resolution to their grievances. That is it. It is simple and straightforward.

The other issues, I agree, deserve a much longer debate. In fact, it is in front of the Supreme Court and I look forward to its decision, but today's motion is straightforward and simple. It is to give these men access to an independent ombudsman who can address their grievances.

[David Tilson, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I gather the hon. member for Mississauga—Erindale is a member of the committee. Obviously he has a certain amount of information with respect to this issue.

My understanding is that the Federal Court has already determined that the security certificates regarding these individuals are reasonable and that the matter is still before the Federal Court and it will be ultimately dealt with by the Federal Court.

The committee report calls on the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration to mandate the office of the Correctional Investigator which has jurisdiction over all federal inmates, except for those held in the Kingston Immigration Holding Centre, to have jurisdiction over these issues.

Is the Federal Court not independent? Is the member suggesting that the investigator usurp the powers of the Federal Court? I hope that is not his position, but if that is his position, I am afraid we have a big problem.

[Omar Alghabra, Liberal, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member's question actually illustrates what I said earlier.

The Federal Court has ruled. Right now actually the Supreme Court is examining the principles and the fundamentals of the security certificate itself and whether or not it should apply to these men. However, that is not what we are discussing today, although it leads me to point out that we are reading in the news these days how the Conservatives are trying to ensure that judges are selected according to their ideology, but that is neither here nor there.

My point is the issue we are debating today is should these individuals have the right to access an independent ombudsman who could address their grievances. It has nothing to do with what the Federal Court has ruled on. It has nothing to do with what the Supreme Court is considering right now. It has nothing to do with any past decisions of the courts.

It is within the capacity of the minister, and there is no legislation that forbids the minister from doing that. In fact it is important to reiterate that we have inmates, prisoners, criminals, who in some cases are imprisoned for life, where evidence has been supplied against them and they have been found guilty, and they have the ability to access an independent ombudsman. However, these three detainees--who are detainees and not criminals; we have not convicted them, we do not know if they are innocent or guilty--have no ability to have their complaint independently observed, monitored or addressed. That is what we are debating and that is what we are voting on today.

I hope my response addressed the member's question. I hope the member will see the light and will vote in support of this motion.

[Bill Siksay, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

Mr. Speaker, in the course of the debate this morning we have heard the phrase “three-sided cell” used a number of times. I wonder if the member could comment on that.

My experience from being at the Kingston Immigration Holding Centre is that there is nothing three sided about that place at all. It is a maximum security prison physically within a maximum security prison. People go through two sets of double fence with razor wire to get into the Kingston Immigration Holding Centre.

It also raises the question of the option of whether these men can leave Canada easily. The government seems to think they could pack their bags and head home to Syria or Egypt tomorrow when we know that they would face torture or even death should they do that.

I wonder if the member could comment on those two points.

[Omar Alghabra, Liberal, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I am sure the parliamentary secretary was talking about three-sided cells figuratively because literally what we saw there were eight-sided cells, if not twelve-sided cells.

If he is referring to it as a figure of speech, the courts, if we keep referring to the courts, have already decided that these individuals are under threat of torture and therefore they should not be deported to countries where they have reasonable fear of torture.

The reality is that we might try to simplify it and we might say that these individuals really have a choice, but I am not aware of any human beings who would choose to go to their demise or be tortured.

[Meili Faille, Bloc, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to speak here today. This is a sad day because some individuals have been detained for a very long time without ever standing trial or even being charged. At present, the administration cannot say how long they will be detained.

Some people are being detained in Kingston, in a facility attached to Millhaven penitentiary. As I said, no charges have been laid against these individuals.

They are being detained on a security certificate under immigration regulations.

We had the opportunity to meet these people yesterday, for the second time. During the first meeting, we were able to learn about the situation. All committee members travelled there to ask the centre's administration and the detainees some questions, and to see for themselves the prison conditions of the detainees.

The demands of the three detainees seem both simple and reasonable, considering that no charges have been laid. The security certificates allow the Canadian government and authorities to detain an individual based on suspicions of an attack on our national security.

Let us remind those listening that these detainees have not seen the evidence and have no opportunity to appeal the decision. They have no opportunity to challenge the evidence against them.

We support the motion tabled by my colleague for Burnaby—Douglas for improved conditions of detention for these individuals.

Earlier I listened to my colleague explain that convicted criminals presently incarcerated in Millhaven penitentiary are able to participate in a national program whereby they have a specific number of hours of conjugal visits. Thus, they have a certain private life. However, the three individuals detained at the Kingston immigration holding centre are not entitled to participate in this program.

The Minister of Public Safety stated that these individuals are in a prison referred to as a three-sided cell.

Their only option is to leave this centre and to be returned to their countries, where they fear they will be tortured. This is a serious matter. The government does not provide any other options.

In discussions that took place yesterday, it was suggested that they be accompanied by a monitor. In addition, there was discussion about the fact that procedures are being established as time goes by and that the treatment of these individuals is inconsistent.

This is a new centre. I understand that the administrators, because of a lack of experience, have difficulty dealing with the fact that this is simultaneously a maximum security institution, a prison managed by correctional services, and an immigration detention centre.

We have been asked for an independent observer and arbitrator. In recent years, I have had the opportunity to visit several detention centres and to meet with these detainees when they were held at the Toronto West Detention Centre.

The provincial prison was a cooperative environment, and the atmosphere was much less tense than what we witnessed on our two visits to the Kingston prison.

When I went to meet with the inmates at the Toronto prison, I was able to meet with the warden, social services representatives and the inmates' families—with the warden present—to discuss the inmates' living conditions. They were also allowed to meet with the media in private, without being watched by the guards. These people could meet with me in confidentiality, without being spied on by the guards.

In conclusion, three people are currently being held. A combination of factors has created this atmosphere of doubt, where the authorities are looking for information that could convict them. They seem to be in an environment where the guards and the people on site are trying to find information to incriminate them.

The requests are simple. It is asked that these inmates be allowed more privacy during visits with their families, nothing less. It is asked that they have greater assurances of safety while in custody. It is asked that a supervisor accompany them. It is asked that an arbitrator or independent ombudsman be named. It is asked that the inmates' complaints be listened to and that decisions be made that will give them back an acceptable standard of living.

These people understand that they can leave at any time, but they also know that if they do leave, they could suffer serious abuse in their own countries. I am afraid that because of inaction on this issue, innocent people are suffering needlessly. This will be determined later.

In my opinion, the committee's motion addresses this situation, because the committee members were able to visit these people and met with representatives of international organizations and human rights representatives here in Canada.

In situations where national security is at stake, what is needed most is greater judicial independence with regard to human rights. In my opinion, these three individuals are entitled to that independence, because they do not know what they are being accused of and they have not had the right to a fair trial.

[Bill Siksay, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I thank the member for Vaudreuil-Soulanges for her hard work on this file over many years. I know she has taken a very active and personal interest in this file and has been very helpful in resolving some of the issues and continues to pursue that path.

In listening to her speech, I found it interesting to hear her talk about the conditions that she experienced when the detainees were being held in the provincial facility at the Metro West Detention Centre in the Toronto area and how that has changed with the transfer to this special facility at Kingston. She mentioned that they had access to the director of social services at the Metro West Detention Centre, when there is no such comparative position at the Kingston Immigration Holding Centre. I also found it interesting that they had private access to the media at Metro West but have not had that same experience in Kingston. She said that she was able to meet with them privately at Metro West, when that has not always been the case at Kingston.

I know too that the distance from their families has been a real issue for the men when they were transferred to Kingston. Since they are all from the Toronto area and that is where their families are based, the separation and distance between Toronto and Kingston has proven to be a real hardship.

It seems to me that there has been a pattern of deteriorating conditions that they have faced since they went to the Kingston centre and there is still no way of dealing with those deteriorating conditions. There is no outside, independent person who can resolve those issues.

I wonder if she could just say a bit more about that and about the need for an independent person to resolve those questions.