House of Commons Hansard #146 of the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was c-22.

Topics

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

10:20 a.m.

Bloc

Guy André Bloc Berthier—Maskinongé, QC

Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague, the member for Saint-Maurice—Champlain, for his excellent question.

On average, Canada does not incarcerate or put in prison proportionally more individuals than other western countries, such as Germany or France. Furthermore, homicide rates are comparable. The United States has the highest homicide rate and it incarcerates the most people.

This Conservative government is adopting the dominant American ideology, which is not based on any scientific study but which seems to be very popular with certain segments of the population who, in some instances, have not really looked at the research. This is a populist approach. It is quite frankly simplistic and ineffective. They are adopting an American model that has not been proven.

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

10:20 a.m.

Conservative

Ken Epp Conservative Edmonton—Sherwood Park, AB

Mr. Speaker, I hear with interest the argument, always from the Liberals, the Bloc and the NDP, that incarceration is not a deterrent to the commission of crime.

However, I would like to ask the member, if a criminal in the act of doing a crime thinks he is not going to caught, would the member then support added resources for our law enforcement agencies so that word would get out that the probability of being caught has skyrocketed? Would that have an effect? Or does he really believe it would make no difference?

When I was driving down the highway the other day, I drove into a construction zone. I noticed a big sign that said the speed limit was 60, because we do not want to injure the workers building the highway. There was another sign that said in great big letters that “speed fines double”. That was the only time when I was going the speed limit that no one passed me. It seems to me that the fear of being caught, and the penalty attached to it, is in fact a deterrent.

I would like my colleague to comment on those ideas.

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

10:25 a.m.

Bloc

Guy André Bloc Berthier—Maskinongé, QC

Mr. Speaker, I said in my speech that all the members in this House truly want to reduce crime and ensure that the safety of Quebeckers and Canadians is not in any way threatened. The preferred methods are where we differ.

I am a social worker by training and I worked for 20 years in a network with people who were often disadvantaged and whose parents had engaged in some form of crime. Crime must be attacked at the root, during childhood. Through prevention programs, support for the parents and support for the children, we can reduce crime. These are the measures we should be pushing for.

However, if we do not succeed through prevention, crimes will then be committed by a person who often had no support and who will need to be imprisoned because they committed a serious offence. We agree with this, but we do not agree with minimum penalties because they take the judge's place in rendering a judgment, and do not take into account the specific circumstances surrounding a crime. For these reasons, we will vote against the bill.

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

10:25 a.m.

Bloc

Paul Crête Bloc Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC

Mr. Speaker, thank you for allowing me to speak to Bill C-10 to provide for minimum penalties of five, seven and ten years for certain crimes according to the number, if any, of previous convictions.

The Bloc Québécois has looked carefully at this bill. In fact, in committee, a number of amendments were withdrawn and now the government is presenting them again here. Why is the Bloc Québécois against this bill? Certainly not because it wants crime to increase.

The crime rate has gone down in Canada. In the past, we realized that prevention measures such as maintaining the firearms registry and better monitoring of the parole system would provide the necessary conditions for continuing to lower the crime rate. What will be the impact of the approach the government is proposing today? The incarceration rate will increase. There will be less money in the budget for prevention and less chance of reintegrating people into society.

For example, under the bill, for armed robbery there would be a minimum sentence of three years for a first offence and a minimum sentence of five years for a subsequent offence. What this does not say—it is there between the lines—is that an accomplice would automatically be sentenced to three years. An unarmed youth involved in an armed robbery would automatically be sentenced to three years. The government has deliberately and knowingly elected to automatically send a 19- or 20-year-old to crime school and likely create a career criminal. We currently rely on something very important and that is the intelligence of judges. Judges are humans with analytical skills. They are considered to have the competence to do this type of work and can take into account the entire context of a crime. This is not an area where automatic sentences will resolve the situation. They will not solve anything. If the bill is passed, I can guarantee that in 10 years, the penitentiaries will have bigger budget problems. The crime rate will go up and there will be less money for prevention. The result will be the exact opposite of what the government was looking for.

It is very easy to say that, for certain crimes, the more severe the minimum sentence, the lower the chances of recidivism. The entire situation must be analyzed. Some people are able to successfully return to society. It has been done in the past. There are also other tools that can be used, such as better supervision of parole. Greater effort is needed in this area.

The Conservative government, in good faith, wants to find a way to reduce crime. However, it is only looking at the first level, while concrete and practical solutions are to be found at the second and third levels. We must look further to achieve results. The American model offers a good example. There are more people in prison in the United States than anywhere else in the world. This breeds a team of criminals, contributes to organized crime and encourages people to become involved in organized crime. Here, we developed a system that allows people to reintegrate into society and return to a normal lifestyle. Thus, we are achieving a number of our objectives.

Experts indicate that the use of minimum sentences does nothing to lower crime or recidivism rates. Evidence to that effect was heard in committee. For example, a criminologist from the University of Ottawa, Julia Roberts, conducted a study for the Department of Justice Canada in which she concluded:

...mandatory sentences of imprisonment have been introduced in a number of western nations. ...The studies that have examined the impact of these laws reported variable effects on prison populations, and no discernible effect on crime rates.

No discernible effect on crime rates. On one hand, we have a knee-jerk, short-term approach, and on the other, we have a professional analysis of the situation. Since crime rates have dropped in Canada, I think we must continue to cultivate this different attitude towards such behaviour, developed in Quebec and in Canada. In the United States, they have not achieved the desired results. In order to continue to reduce crime rates, we need a major systemic intervention to create a society that has less poverty.

That is the primary factor here. Every society that does a better job of fighting poverty finds that fewer people commit minor, entry level crimes. These crimes are often committed by people who are just trying to make ends meet or because they are addicts and do not have access to support programs. I think that is the solution we should be looking at.

More support and better supervision once offenders exit the penal system will help lower the risk to reoffend. We also have to find new ways of doing things. Today, parole is automatically offered once an offender has served one sixth of the sentence. We have to reconsider this. I think modifying the parole system is more important and more urgent than the approach the government has proposed, and would be more effective, too.

We think that bringing in automatic sentencing is a dangerous approach that has not resulted in desired outcomes in the United States and will not result in desired outcomes in Canada. That is why a majority of committee members voted to remove so many of the amendments. Now the government wants to put them back in. We will see what the House decides to do about this, but it seems obvious to me that this approach is not well thought out.

Introducing this bill was like a gut reaction; when you burn yourself, the first thing you want to do is put water on the burn, but that may not be the best solution. Something else might be needed. In this case, there should be a collective approach that allows the situation to be dealt with and worthwhile results to be achieved.

I would like young people, who unfortunately get involved in crime, to return to society as soon as possible and to be properly integrated, thanks to adequate support services. That is better than creating individuals who join organized crime and therefore cost more to society.

That is why the Bloc Québécois will be voting against this bill. We hope the hon. members in this House are paying attention to our arguments and that we will get the desired results. In fact, we hope this entire problem and this bill will be submitted for consultation—even if it is rejected—in order to come up with solutions that will truly improve the situation without making it worse.

We are not necessarily here to copy the U.S. model. The Americans make their choices, and we must not condemn them, but we do not need to copy their methods entirely because they do not necessarily correspond to our social values.

We would like, more than any thing else, to see reintegration as a possibility in our society . I hope that the hon. members in this House will listen to our arguments.

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

10:35 a.m.

Conservative

Joe Preston Conservative Elgin—Middlesex—London, ON

Mr. Speaker, I listened very closely. I may have missed something, but I am going to draw this to the member's attention. I spoke to a police officer just the other day who was frustrated enough to have called my riding office to speak to me. I will not mention names because of course I cannot. He spoke of a file that crossed his desk in regard to someone who has had 42 different charges and convictions against him in the last short period of time. The police officer asked, “How is it that this person keeps getting back on the street in order to commit the next one?”

The member opposite talked about how this is not a deterrent and about what the system is doing to the young accomplice, but what I will say to the member is that he never used the word victim. What about the victim? In the case of those 42 charges in a very short period of time, if there had been some sort of mandatory minimum for the person, 10, 20, 30 or 40 victims may not have been victimized by this criminal because he would have been spending time in our of our facilities instead of being out and re-victimizing people.

I am not here for punishment. I would love to rehabilitate the man too. However, as his own member said, criminals do not read the legislation. They are just concerned about not getting caught. As for this guy, he is getting caught and still is spending time back out on the street re-victimizing. Does the member think about the victims as much as he thinks about that young accomplice?

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

10:35 a.m.

Bloc

Paul Crête Bloc Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC

Mr. Speaker, of course we think about the victims. That is another issue, different from what we are discussing now. Actually, we supported the creation of an ombudsman position to help victims.

However, the federal government’s appointment of a unilingual anglophone is bad for victims. If they want to do something for victims, they should start by appointing an ombudsman who is bilingual. That would be the reasonable thing to do.

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

10:35 a.m.

Some hon. members

Oh, oh!

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

10:35 a.m.

Bloc

Paul Crête Bloc Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC

My hon. colleague, to whom I yielded the floor, apparently does not want to let me speak. I would like him to allow me to speak.

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

10:35 a.m.

NDP

The Deputy Speaker NDP Bill Blaikie

Order. People on this side were quiet when the question was being asked. Maybe people on that side could be quiet while the question is being answered.

The hon. member for Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup.

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

10:35 a.m.

Bloc

Paul Crête Bloc Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC

Mr. Speaker, thank you for your understanding, because it is very important to have a dialogue in the House and present the arguments for each side. I have put mine on the table.

My hon. colleague just confirms their piecemeal approach. He said that he spoke with a police officer who told him about a certain problematical situation. Maybe the same officer spoke to him 10 minutes later to say that he was in favour of gun control and the registry. The hon. member did not mention that because the police officer associations want gun control. They have told us so. We cannot listen to only half the message.

I agree with the hon. member that we need to work hard to ensure that people stop being criminals. We all agree here on that. Where we differ is on the kind of action we should take.

The Conservative Party wants to generate people from somewhere for the prison system. More and more people will be in there, where they may well learn what crime really is. What we are saying instead is that the emphasis should be on prevention. The best action is to help people re-enter society. That is the crux of the debate on this issue.

Judges obviously need to have a free hand when passing sentences. We should give them the leeway they need. We should not make crime an organized and systematized activity, with automatic sentences. I think that we need a more humane approach, which does not mean that criminals cannot be severely punished. All the necessary tools already exist. However, the approach that the Conservatives are taking today in this bill will simply lead to more crime, higher costs for the prison system, and less money for prevention.

That is why the Bloc Québécois opposes this bill.

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

10:40 a.m.

NDP

The Deputy Speaker NDP Bill Blaikie

Resuming debate? If no members are rising for further debate, we will proceed to the putting of the motions at report stage.

The question is on Motion No. 1. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?

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10:40 a.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

No.

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10:40 a.m.

NDP

The Deputy Speaker NDP Bill Blaikie

All those in favour of the motion will please say yea.

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10:40 a.m.

Some hon. members

Yea.

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10:40 a.m.

NDP

The Deputy Speaker NDP Bill Blaikie

All those opposed will please say nay.

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

10:40 a.m.

Some hon. members

Nay.

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10:40 a.m.

NDP

The Deputy Speaker NDP Bill Blaikie

In my opinion the yeas have it.

And five or more members having risen:

The recorded division on the motion stands deferred. The recorded division will also apply to Motions Nos. 2 and 17 to 20.

The question is on the amendment to Motion No. 3. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the amendment?

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

10:40 a.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

No.

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10:40 a.m.

NDP

The Deputy Speaker NDP Bill Blaikie

All those in favour of the amendment will please say yea.

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10:40 a.m.

Some hon. members

Yea.

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10:40 a.m.

NDP

The Deputy Speaker NDP Bill Blaikie

All those opposed will please say nay.

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

10:40 a.m.

Some hon. members

Nay.

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10:40 a.m.

NDP

The Deputy Speaker NDP Bill Blaikie

In my opinion the nays have it.

And five or more members having risen:

The recorded division on the amendment stands deferred.

The question is on the amendment to Motion No. 4. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the amendment?

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

10:40 a.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

No.

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10:40 a.m.

NDP

The Deputy Speaker NDP Bill Blaikie

All those in favour of the amendment will please say yea.