Debates of Oct. 20th, 2009

Criminal Code

[Mario Laframboise, Bloc, Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I would like first of all to thank the member for Repentigny for his excellent presentation. It is even more important because he is part of the younger generation in this House. I hope that he will feel comfortable with letting us know his age. I think that one of my sons is the same age. It is important because I often have discussions with my son about the importance of protecting yourself. The young generation has too much of a tendency to trust the whole system and never hesitates to give their information. They often use the Internet, which is good, and they make transactions on it. I would like the member to repeat what he said, for we have a chance, today, before adopting this bill, to let our messages be heard.

As a representative of young people, I would like him to send a message to his compatriots, to let them know how important it is to be able to protect their own identity.

[Nicolas Dufour, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I want to thank my colleague for his question. I am not at all afraid of saying my age. I am 22 years old. The member is putting a lot of pressure on me by asking me to explain to young people, in 30 seconds, how important it is to be cautious when using networking websites such as Facebook. It is not the kind of awareness campaign one can do alone.

My colleague from Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel hit the nail on the head when he said that our generation may be a little bit too trusting. We do not have this kind of fear, we are less afraid of fraud, we feel more protected, we think that those things will not happen to us. We feel totally immune to that, but we are wrong to feel that way. Actually, it is the exact opposite. Our generation—perhaps mine more than yours—is probably the one that will be greatly affected by that because we use those websites, like Facebook, that are information-sharing sites. What we have on Facebook is information on who we are, as I was saying earlier, our name, our age, our address, all those things. It is extremely dangerous and it makes the work of identity thieves a lot easier. We really need to raise awareness among our younger generations to make them understand that they should be extremely cautious and should not, under any circumstances, give out personal information such as their social insurance number or credit card number.

[Jean Dorion, Bloc, Longueuil—Pierre-Boucher, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I listened with great interest, like the rest of the House, of course, to the speech of my young colleague from Repentigny and I would like him to comment on other aspects of the question that are not directly related to the subject of the bill, but which are nonetheless part of the issue. I would like the member to comment on the need for the Canadian government to work closely with Quebec and the other provinces on this issue.

In May of 2007, the Privacy Commissioner told the Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics that the real solution to the problem of identity theft included civil proceedings. She said:

... we should look at civil sanctions that are very easy to prove and easy for citizens, for example, to take to small claims courts, which may provide a more easily accessible deterrent to the growing industry of ID theft. This means, of course, that the federal government has to work closely with the provinces, because a lot of what happens in terms of ID theft falls within provincial jurisdiction.

We in the Bloc recognize that this change to the Criminal Code will not be enough and that the Canadian government will need to cooperate with the provinces. I would like the member for Repentigny to elaborate on that.

[Nicolas Dufour, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague from Longueuil—Pierre-Boucher for his excellent question.

My colleague sits on the Standing Committee on Government Operations and Estimates and I can assure the House that he is in a very good position to know the extent of the federal government's chronic inability to negotiate with the provinces, despite its promise to respect provincial and federal jurisdictions and to lead by example. In fact, the government is doing the exact opposite. My colleague from Longueuil—Pierre-Boucher sees it every day, just like every other Bloc Québécois member, and that is why we are sovereignists.

The federal government must also lead by example on this file. It must not only be able to negotiate with the other provinces. Let us not forget that this bill also has enormous repercussions for other provinces in terms of civil rights, for example. Therefore, the government must also lead by example.

The federal government is proposing to penalize people who make fraudulent use of identity documents such as social insurance cards. However, it is not doing enough to protect and strengthen the integrity of the social insurance number. In June 2006, we learned that the Auditor General estimated there were 2.9 million more social insurance numbers in circulation than the estimated number of Canadians aged 30 and over.

So we have a government that, on top of being incapable of negotiating with the provinces on a wide variety of subjects, is incompetent. That is why we voted in favour of a non-confidence motion.

[Mario Laframboise, Bloc, Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to continue this debate concerning Bill S-4, An Act to amend the Criminal Code (identity theft and related misconduct), and to follow the brilliant speech by my colleague from Repentigny.

My question about my colleague’s age was not without a point. He is 22, and I am 52. So there are 30 years separating us. I am going to tell my story. I also want to say that the Bloc Québécois is a party with a good balance between the generations. Obviously, that is to the advantage of the Quebeckers who elect us. There is a good ratio between men and women, one that we need to improve. We must always work to increase women’s participation in our political parties. And there is a good balance among the different age groups in the representatives of the Bloc Québécois.

Why did I stress that question? In his reply, my colleague from Repentigny told us about his experience with a cloned debit card. At a very young age, I also had my identity stolen, as I discovered several years later. The mistake made by the people who wanted to steal my identity was that at the time they did it I was a full-time student. I did not have the necessary income. Obviously, they found themselves facing the harsh reality of someone who was not a person of means.

Fifteen years ago, when I applied for a credit report—Equifax or TransUnion do it free of charge—I wanted to know how my credit was and how those firms regarded me. When I received the results, I realized that a name that was not mine appeared on my credit record. I took the necessary steps to ask those firms why there was a name that was not mine. They told me a credit application had been made in that person’s name—which was not my name—and that the person had my social insurance number, my birth date and all the information needed. They had had to add that person’s name to my credit record for my whole life. Why? Because one application was made. At the time, given that the application was excessive, since I had no income, I had not even been informed or contacted. That may be because I had left to study outside Canada. That was probably why. I had not even been aware of it, but 30 or 35 years ago some people had got hold of my personal information, probably from my university applications. That is what we figured out at the time. Those people had got hold of my registration form and, for one reason or another, had thought I was wealthy. There are not just young people at universities. The average age of people at university is between 35 and 40 years, depending on the university. Someone had tried to commit this fraud against me.

Identity theft is not new. We must understand that. Young people too must understand that. I put this question to my colleague from Repentigny. The sites where we give our credit card numbers are not secure just because they are on the Internet. Once the information is there, thieves can get information on us. Inevitably, the result is terrible. We are faced with debt that is not ours. Credit cards are stolen. My colleague was lucky, because he says his bank very quickly realized what had happened and that he was reimbursed for the money taken from his account. Others are less lucky. It is a tough situation.

That is why a measure like Bill S-4 is important. The Bloc supports this bill. Today we are taking the time required to explain why to our viewers. Bills are often passed very quickly. People learn about them through a paragraph in the media. Not all bills make the headlines in the media. Bill S-4 is very important because it aims to fight identity theft, the collection and unauthorized use of personal information usually for criminal purposes.

It is important we take the time to understand identity theft. It is the act of deliberately taking the identity of another person, generally with the aim of committing fraud, such as accessing the funds of the person or committing an offence or an anonymous crime. Nearly all of these definitions refer to the illegal use of the personal information of another individual.

This personal information is obtained in various ways from direct but not necessarily illegal means, such as from rummaging in the garbage, to highly perfected phishing techniques. Experts provided definitions of other ways to obtain personal information such as theft of identity cards or credit cards, redirecting mail, pretexting—claiming to be authorized to gather information, hacking into computer data bases, using skimming devices to gather information off credit cards or debit cards. Stealing PIN numbers consists in looking over a person's shoulder as they enter their PIN or other information at an automated teller machine.

Obviously, the importance of this must be understood. I know that all of the banks are running campaigns to stop people from giving out their PINs. They must be discouraged from doing so. There are people who do not use a banking machine as easily as others. Young people are more capable. I personally at 52 have been using them for six or seven years, but there are people who have a harder time dealing with these electronic money dispensing boxes.

Some people take longer, and when you take longer others have the chance to have a look. So care must be taken. We must make sure that the people behind us are far enough away. There should be no hesitation in asking them to move back in order to enter the PIN number. Some people, if they go too quickly, may make a mistake and have to start over. This does not help those waiting. So we can say we will take the time we need to enter our information and ask people to step back. If we go too quickly, we have to start over and this does not make things easier for the next person.

Often in the lineups at ATMs, the problem is that people are in a hurry and people behind us in the line try to pressure us. We should then take the time to say, “I am going too fast, you are pressuring me. I will probably make a mistake and it certainly will not go any faster then”. If the person still insists, it may well mean that he is trying to steal our PIN. There are people who are experts in stealing PINs, people who pressure us to try to influence us and maybe move closer to us. That is how they get our PINs.

There are other ways as well, such as the inadequate disposal of documents. Machines can be bought, such as paper shredders. It is important to do this. The first machines cut paper into strips, but experts could re-assemble it. Now there are new versions that do the shredding differently so that it is impossible to reconstitute the document. It is important, therefore, when we have documents at home not to just throw them in the garbage because people can search it and find our information. We should make sure to shred all documents with personal information very carefully, even if they are going straight into the garbage.

There is also the loss or theft of personal computers. These computers are very valuable and should not be left in cars. We should be very conscientious about this because our computers are an easy way to steal our identity.

Someone mentioned redirecting mail. If we get mail about a credit card or are expecting information about one—we have applied for one, or it is being renewed, or we have lost ours and requested another—we should be very aware of the expected arrival date. If we are renewing a credit card or have applied for a new one because ours has been changed or does not work any more, we should be very careful. We are given a date by which to expect the new one. As soon as that date goes by, we should call to ensure that the card was sent. If it was, we should ask for a new one because people can get their hands on mail through devious means and try to gather the information on a credit card or even get the credit card itself.

More and more credit card companies are sending their cards by registered mail. We have to sign to get them. However, not all companies do this. We have to be cautious and always make sure that credit cards and documents with personal information have the proper address and that we take possession of them to ensure that someone else does not get them.

As for illegitimate access to databases, the experts in that are known as hackers. As soon as we notice an unusual problem with our computer, we must be cautious. Detecting hacking is not easy, but there are many kinds of software to do that on the market. We must make sure that our computers are equipped with the latest versions of hacking prevention software because hacking is a way to get personal data.

Bill S-4 would create three new specific offences that would all be subject to five year maximum sentences. Adopting legislation is one way to deter that kind of crime. Another way consists in creating new offences with prison sentences.

Those three new offences are the following. The first one is obtaining and possessing identity information with the intent to use the information deceptively, dishonestly or fraudulently in the commission of a crime. Therefore, the person who obtains or possesses the identity information of another person with the intent to commit a crime exposes himself or herself to the five year maximum sentence.

The second offence is trafficking in identity information. Some persons do not intend to use the information they have stolen but are willing to sell it to another person. We see in the media stories of people, businesses or fraudulent systems that steal the content of databases. The individual who sells that information would also automatically risk a prison sentence.

The third offence is unlawfully possessing or trafficking in government-issued identity documents. Earlier I spoke about the credit cards we may receive in the mail, for which we must check that the promised time frames for receipt are respected. If they are not, calls have to be made. Information that governments send us also has to be included. We do not always know when the government is sending us correspondence. When it sends us a cheque, we are pleased, and usually we appreciate it. When it is a bill or a notice of assessment, we don’t want to know, and what is more, we do not know when it is sending us one. These documents could come into people’s possession. Our social insurance number is often recorded on these documents. Obviously this is very important information for stealing identity. Thus, if certain citizens, with unlawful or illicit purposes, attempt to take possession of or traffic in government-issued identity documents, there would be another maximum term of imprisonment of five years.

And other amendments are being made to the Criminal Code. There is the new offence of redirecting a person’s mail or causing it to be redirected. As I was saying earlier, one method of identity theft is to take possession of credit cards or documents containing our information that are issued by various levels of government.

The redirecting of mail by a person will constitute a new offence, as will possession of a counterfeit Canada Post mail key. We know that mailboxes do not have unbreakable locks. First, they are supplied by the government and are not the latest in anti-theft locks. Thieves have techniques of inserting different gadgets or forging keys. If someone had a key that was not for his own mailbox, that would be a counterfeit.

Additional forgery offences are created, such as trafficking in and possession of forged documents for the purpose of using them. People may look for and find information on our identity, but then they will need to produce documents. If they apply for loans, they have to fill out forms. Using our name, they could falsify income or make false statements on forms. They could apply for a loan using our numbers and our name but change our address to their own. It might also be a case of forged credit cards: new credit cards could be issued with the numbers they obtained. This would then be a criminal offence.

The offence of personation is now designated by the term identity fraud. When referring to the offence of personation, the term identity fraud is used. Furthermore, the meaning of “personating a person” is clarified.

In my case, as I was saying, someone applied for credit a number of years ago. The name of that person is still on my credit history. So, if someone falsely claims to be someone else, that person could be criminally charged. I am currently trying to remove the person's name from my file, but it is impossible. No other applications have been made in the past 25 years. If my social insurance number and my date of birth ever appear on an application it will automatically be denied by the credit companies because that other name is on my file. I have not been able to press criminal charges, but under this bill I would be able to. The offence occurred 25 years ago when it was not illegal. From now on, people who go through a similar experience will be able to press criminal charges.

The offence of possessing instruments for copying credit card data is being added because making credit cards requires a plan and the necessary equipment for copying credit cards. Every person in possession of materials or equipment for copying credit cards could be charged with the criminal offence of identity theft.

The bill also adds a new power that would enable the court to order the offender, as part of the penalty, to make restitution to the victim of identity theft or identity fraud for the expenses associated with rehabilitating their identity, including expenses to replace cards and documents and to correct their credit history. That is important. What is required of a victim of identity theft? Earlier my colleague from Repentigny said that the bank alerted him. He did not suffer any monetary losses, but the fact remains that often people who lose their identity have to replace their cards and file new applications. This takes a lot of time. Often, the time this can take and the money it can cost to file all these applications is rather significant and can cause problems. This could be added up and the criminals could be made to pay.

[Robert Vincent, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to speak to this bill. I believe it is a good bill, and the Bloc Québécois supports it. All members in this House agree that this bill should have been passed at least 10 years ago.

For those of us who are just joining us on television, I would like to talk about the three new offences created in this bill.

The first offence involves obtaining and possessing identity information with the intent to use the information deceptively, dishonestly or fraudulently in the commission of a crime.

The second involves trafficking in identity information, an offence that targets those who transfer or sell information to another person, with knowledge of or recklessness as to the possible criminal use of the information.

The third involves unlawfully possessing or trafficking in government-issued identity documents that contain information of another person. These three offences are the most common in our system.

Furthermore, this bill would add a new power permitting the court to order, as part of a sentence, that an offender—and this is the best part—be required to pay restitution to a victim of identity theft. Not only can the offender be sentenced to prison, but he must also pay restitution to the victim. All of the expenses incurred by a victim of identity theft can be reimbursed by the criminal himself. That is important, and worth noting.

I would add that the Privacy Commissioner said the same thing. I will quote her further on. This is particularly important because she has made a number of calls for changes to the Criminal Code so that we can more effectively fight identity theft. She herself has said that this tool is not very effective.

She said:

I don't think it's just an issue of the Criminal Code. As you know, our law administrators hesitate to use the Criminal Code: the standards of proof are higher, and the charter may apply, and so very often you have to have a fairly clear-cut case to use the Criminal Code.

She goes on to say:

Civil sanctions are very easy to prove and easy for citizens, for example, to take to small claims courts, which may provide a more easily accessible deterrent to the growing industry of ID theft. This means, of course, that I think the federal government has to work closely with the provinces, because a lot of what happens in terms of ID theft falls within provincial jurisdiction.

This is where it gets important. If offenders are forced to reimburse the victims whose identity they have stolen, by dealing directly with the courts of each province, this would make things much easier for us, and it would be easier for the victims to get their money back. By going through a provincial court, like small claims court for example, which can hear cases up to $7,000, if I am not mistaken, the offender can be ordered immediately to reimburse the victim.

I certainly understand how this list of new offences created might seem repressive, but the fact remains that we have not addressed the idea of prevention.

Prevention is important to the Bloc Québécois. Why? Because regulations allow us to better manage the storage and retrieval of the information held by businesses. As well, the government should take additional measures when it comes to amendments regarding identity theft. What other measures could be added? How does someone have their identity stolen? I understand that personal identification can be stolen using someone's PIN, by copying or stealing someone's credit card, or at an ATM.

The fact remains, however, that many businesses do not take good enough care of the documentation and personal information submitted to them. For instance, I am sure everyone has read about ID documents found in the trash in an alley behind a convenience store, because employees decided to throw away their copies of credit card statements. Drugstores have also thrown away all sorts of information. Businesses that manage our personal assets are not as careful as we are. We can protect our personal information. We have PINs. I am sure every one of us is very careful when using a PIN, a credit card or any other document.

When we are at the mercy of businesses that are not careful, we can be in big trouble, and the resulting process can take a very long time. You realize, for example, that the balance in your bank account is lower than it should be or that someone has used your credit card, and you do not know how it could have happened. You learn that your personal documents have been found in a trashcan and used by criminals to obtain other credit cards and get more money. It is easy for a criminal who knows someone's date of birth and social insurance number to open a bank account under that person's name. It is very easy. With all the right information, it is even possible to obtain a line of credit by phone and use it to make withdrawals. Therefore, it is important that businesses be as careful as we are with our personal information.

In a future bill, we should really consider introducing prevention at the level of businesses. I am not speaking of just small businesses. How many others have contributed to identity theft? Banks have lost personal information. Information is stolen or accessed by hackers from other businesses. They readily admit that millions of dollars have been stolen from them. In the end, everyone pays because the banks are not saddled with the loss. The loss is written off and that is that. We continue to pay for those who do not protect our identity.

We should really examine this issue and do something in terms of legislation to protect people against those who are not careful with our personal information. This does not affect just the private sector. If that were the case, it would be another matter. The government also referred to all the questions asked about this bill but what has been happening with this government? As one of my colleagues was saying, with regard to government, in June 2006—which is not so long ago and we know who was in power then—,the auditor general estimated that there were 2.9 million too many social insurance numbers circulating. That is not a small number. We are not talking about 10,000 or 100,000, which would still be too many.

How can the government have 2.9 million more social insurance numbers in circulation than the estimated number of Canadians who are 30 and older? Do you see the paradox? We are prepared to find and punish, in some way, people who steal the identities of others. Yet, the government is immune from all that.

That figure of 2.9 million is quite something. How much identity theft occurs in one day? The figures are probably appalling. We could report the statistics but businesses will never admit to having had the personal information of 100,000 people stolen from them.

No one will admit to it because any trust in these companies would then be lost. Follow-up by companies is all the more important if the government does its own. What has the government done since 2006 about the extra 2.9 million social insurance numbers? Nothing. We have not even heard a peep about that.

For those listening, this has to be appalling. How can one have any confidence when hearing about bills to protect society when our own government cannot even ensure our protection? That is not all. In 2004, when the Liberals were in power, the Minister of Transport was questioned at length about items, supplies or uniforms that I can list.

In 2004, the media reported that the Canadian Air Transport Security Authority, for which the greatest efforts are made to ensure its protection, had lost the control over its uniforms. Between January and September 2004, of approximately 75,000 uniform items that had been distributed to some 4,000 screeners, a total of 1,127 items were reported lost or stolen, including 91 shields, 78 shirts, 30 windbreakers, and 25 sweaters, all of which bore the agency's logo. According to the CBC, some uniform items were even offered to the highest bidder on eBay, an online auction site.

It is one thing to ask something of others, but it is another to ask the same of oneself. That is what the public wants governments to do: stop imposing things they themselves do not do. That is where it should start. They do not do prevention work and they keep taking the easy way out, by imposing prison terms. The same sentence would apply to those who have committed this offence. However, we are already hearing about people serving one sixth of their sentence, something that is causing discontent among political parties and that the Bloc Québécois had been denouncing. It is all fine and well to say that a five-year minimum sentence was handed down, but for a first offence, the time to be served is two months, and one sixth of that full sentence means that, after a few short days of imprisonment, the offender is free again. Moreover, those who remained in custody pending trial might be done serving their sentence and be released immediately following trial.

What message do we want to send the public? First, care must be taken, which makes a lot of sense. Second, the public expects the government also to use care with respect to personal documents it keeps or issues because, with a social insurance number, it is easy to take someone else's name, let alone to falsify information.

Today, computers make everything possible. The Internet is used for phishing. For example, people are fooled with logos into giving their PIN. Many things can be done to start with, and the first is to inform people. When I see the government spending $100,000 just to advertise the programs it is setting up, I know it is perfectly capable of spending some money on informing the public about the way to protect personal information. That is one thing. But, there is also a way for companies to protect the information they receive from us.

After a credit card transaction at the convenience store, we keep a paper copy. But, what do we do after two years? We want to get rid of it. The easiest way is to throw it in the garbage. That is why the example that keeps coming back in the House of Commons is the garbage can.

Some people have nothing to do but search through garbage cans to find these documents. They line their pockets because someone did not dispose securely of personal documents belonging to somebody else. I am sure that such a person would act otherwise with his own personal information. That person would not leave a piece of paper with information on a credit card transaction lying around; he would throw it in the garbage. However, we need to educate people to show them that someone else might have to live with the consequences and could be in greater trouble.

Let us take the example of a student who lost his wallet. Everyone knows that students do not have pots of money. Their bank accounts are always nearly empty. If a student trusts the convenience store and someone at the store manages to empty his bank account where he had the money to pay his university fees, the student will be faced with a rude awakening. Really, awareness among those people must be raised.

The appropriate solution would be an advertising campaign to raise awareness. However, it is also important to train people working in businesses. Employees need to be shown how to dispose of these documents.

I sat on the committee that looked at the documents pertaining to the Personal Information Protection and Electronic Documents Act. I wanted to include a clause in the bill that would fine businesses that were caught leaving documents belonging to other people in alleys, garbage containers or elsewhere. It is important not only that businesses be made aware, but that they be punished for thoughtlessly leaving documents where anyone can find them.

I was told that this was not a good solution and that businesses should install shredders instead. One of my colleagues even went so far as to suggest conducting a study on shredders. I believe that Parliament has more important things to do than conduct a study on shredders or how to dispose of personal documents belonging to other people. I believe that that was taking matters a bit too far.

However, I do feel that we can take other bills further. This is a good bill. It is a start. We had to start somewhere, and this bill is a step in the right direction, but we must carry on and not rest on our laurels and say that three new offences have been introduced to solve the problem. This bill will not solve the problem. It will address the problem of people's wallets being stolen, but we should go further with a new bill that allows victims of identity theft to go to small claims court to recover lost money from people who stole their identity and withdrew money from their account. I believe that that would be a good thing, and it should be in a new bill.

In closing, I will say that I am in favour of this bill. I do not see why we could not propose new initiatives in a new bill and really raise awareness among members of the public and businesses.

[Jim Maloway, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

Mr. Speaker, I enjoyed the member's comments about the mixed messages the public must deal with on this and other issues.

He mentioned that the federal government had issued 2.9 million more social insurance numbers than there are people. I am mindful of 10 or 15 years ago when the government, headed by the member for Toronto Centre, was looking at Americans coming across the border in Windsor and Fort Frances for medical operations. When it started to look at the smart card process, it found that there were seven million people in the province but that there were eight million OHIP cards.

People look at this and say that the government itself cannot keep its house in order and yet it expects them to be responsible, to buy shredders and to get their security settings fixed on Facebook so others cannot obtain their information. Clearly, the government needs to look at its responsibilities.

It is great that we will be passing this legislation but we need to ensure we do everything necessary, not only in terms of how the government is run but how the program is promoted to the public and that there is co-operation with the provinces in developing and enforcing this legislation.

I would ask the member if he would like to elaborate further on any points I missed.

[Robert Vincent, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I think that my colleague understands and has defined the issue very well. That is the problem. We often hear the old saying: Do as I say and not as I do. The government gives us a good example of that since it tells us not to do something that it does itself.

I thank my colleague because it is true that in Ontario and elsewhere in Canada, more social insurance numbers were issued than there are people. That is a scourge we are not through with. The fact is that not only does the government give out more SINs than there are people, but we know that there are also forgers and that SINs are like gold and sell very well.

How could the government, which knows that SINs are like gold, issue a surplus of 2.9 million of them?

I cannot imagine that there is nobody in the department and in the government who can assume the responsibility to check what is done and tell us how they will eliminate this problem.

[Robert Bouchard, Bloc, Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I want to congratulate my colleague for his very interesting speech. He gave us several examples of cases where identity theft can take place. We see that the bill does not say anything about preventive measures. Could the member enumerate some such measures that could be included in the bill?

[Robert Vincent, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I will answer my colleague, who is also vice-chair of the Standing Committee on Industry, Science and Technology. One of these days, ways of dealing with this problem should end up before that committee, of which I am also a member.

Yes, it is important. I touched on it earlier. When the government wants to promote all the measures it wants to implement, it will stop at nothing. We saw the government spend $100,000 recently just for one announcement. Therefore, if it has that kind of money for self-promotion, it should have enough money to inform the public on how it can protect itself. That is the first thing.

The second thing is that businesses should also be informed. Not only do they need information, but they also need training. How to dispose of personal documents from people who buy things from them or have other dealings with them? I could give all kinds of examples, such as buying clothes. People can buy things on the Internet. If we could provide training and information and raise awareness, I think that we would be in a much better position to eliminate this problem and we could do other things.

[Josée Beaudin, Bloc, Saint-Lambert, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague for his speech. I have been listening to all my colleagues for the past two hours and I have a question for my Bloc Québécois colleague. The purpose of the bill, which in fact is necessary, is to address identity theft. After having heard all that has been said, I have the following question for my colleague, who broached the subject briefly. If this bill is passed, will identity theft be a thing of the past?

Of course, criminals can be punished, but as far as prevention goes, what can we do to stop identity theft?

We spoke earlier about collaborating with the provinces. I think collaboration between provincial and federal governments is essential to address this problem. It would have been better if the government had started to collaborate before proposing the new measures in the bill; in other words, establish a coherent strategy before changing the Criminal Code, then implement this strategy at the provincial level and make sure the provinces have the necessary tools and resources.

Can my colleague expand upon the importance of collaborating with the provinces, particularly with Quebec, to make sure that the measures contained in this amended bill can be implemented and that the provinces have enough resources to implement them?

[Robert Vincent, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank my colleague. In my view, she did a good job of defining the problem we have been discussing for two hours.

For the past two hours, we have been dealing with limitations in the Criminal Code. But, the problem is not only those limitations as such. It is also that, due to the limitations, gathering the evidence needed to recover the money under the Criminal Code is much more problematic than if the money were recovered through the provinces. It would be much easier for people to recover the money they lost if they did it through the provinces.

Therefore, the problem is perfectly defined. But, we know very well that not encroaching on provincial jurisdictions is not the strong point of the government. If the government could solve all problems across Canada without involving the provinces and if it could manage all provinces while turning its back on them, it would be, in my view, as successful as it hopes to be. But, this is not the case, and we will not let the government act that way.

That is why the Bloc Québécois is a sovereigntist party defending the interests of Quebec.

[Nicole Demers, Bloc, Laval, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to rise to make my contribution to this debate, which is certainly one of the most important debates we have had this year.

My colleagues will agree with me that the crime of identity theft is one of the most heinous crimes that can happen to us and that we can be the victim of. From a number of examples our colleagues have given this morning, we have seen what can happen to people whose identities are stolen.

We agree with this bill, with its intent and with what it proposes. Some people have told us that we should still be careful because the bill as a whole is not perfect. There are in fact clauses in the bill to which we must pay close attention because if we do not pay attention we risk finding ourselves with legislation that does not really meet the needs that have been expressed and that led to it being introduced.

This bill is a good one, however, and it is a necessary one, because we all know very well that since the late 1990s we have been buffeted by all the new electronic data and all the kinds of identification and ways of identifying ourselves we can have. It is very easy to get all sorts of information on the Internet. It may be tempting for fraud artists to use that information against us without our being aware of it.

We are increasingly engaging in electronic transactions. I do it myself. I make sure I see the padlock when I am conducting electronic transactions. But I know that some fraudulent businesses use electronic commerce and various methods to get hold of the data we send, be it our credit card data or information from our personal papers. That data will then be misused.

What is most disturbing, as has been said several times this morning, is the fact that seniors are probably the victims most often targeted by fraud artists for this type of crime. We suspect that this is because seniors are much more vulnerable and much more isolated. Some of them, unfortunately, are also illiterate and do not understand all the ins and outs of what might happen if someone were, unluckily for them, to get hold of their identification.

I had my PIN stolen once myself. I was aware of it, however. I had stopped at a service station to fill up and I saw that there were several people inside the station. It was a small service station on a very busy street in Montreal. I saw several people who did not seem to have any reason for being there. That made me sit up. I said to myself that I would pay attention and be careful. But I did have to pay for the gas I had put in my car.

So I went into the service station and I noticed that the young man behind the counter welcomed me with a big smile, but he had shifty eyes. There was someone quite close to me, and two other people came up as I provided my card with my PIN to make the payment by Interac. I was not carrying any cash. Since the 1990s, no one carries cash. It is easier to pay by Interac.

I was aware of all that around me, but I was a woman alone and I was afraid. I did not know what would happen if I reacted. Would I be attacked if I did not want to use my card and tried to find another way to pay? Would they beat me up if I turned and tried to leave? I told myself I would pay and as soon as I got out I would call the Caisses Desjardins, my service provider. And that is what I did.

As soon as I left, I hurried into a side street and parked. I called the Caisses Desjardins to tell them that I strongly suspected that my Interac number had been taken by the people in the service station. The Caisses Desjardins immediately cancelled the privileges attached to the Interac card. They were thus able to prevent a crime. Representatives of the Caisses Desjardins called me back to tell me that the people had indeed tried to use my card with my PIN. My card itself was not involved, because I had got it back, but they had taken a sort of imprint. They were able to take an imprint of the card while I was using it in the machine. They got my card and my PIN. It really worried me and I realized just how easy it is for people to take personal data, even though we are careful, alert, hardened and in good shape.

My remarks this afternoon will be directed at one of the exceptions in this bill. It contains a very notable exception, which struck me at first. I wondered why. The bill provides two exemptions which would protect from proceedings for falsification those persons who create false papers for covert government operations and would allow public officers, that is law enforcement personnel, to create and use covert identities in furtherance of their duties.

In the light of what we have heard in recent days, I simply wondered whether usurping the government's identity would not be considered fraud. Some of our colleagues in the Conservative Party have usurped the government's identity by putting the Conservative Party logo on their cheques along with their name and their signature. I wondered whether, if these people were sentenced for fraud through theft of identity—false—they would be considered covert law enforcement officers. Should this be considered work never mentioned, covert operations and be kept quiet? Would these persons be considered thus or as having truly committed fraud against the government and guilty of the offences set out in the bill?

Whatever the case, I assume that the guilty parties will be very happy today that the members of the Bloc continually oppose minimum sentences.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!

[Nicole Demers, Bloc, Laval, QC]

You realize that, had there been minimum sentences in this bill, we would have here people who are required, because they broke the law, to serve--

[Paule Brunelle]

--long years in prison.

[Nicole Demers, Bloc, Laval, QC]

Yes, long years in prison, as my colleague from Trois-Rivières has said.

It may seem odd but we have to be careful when drafting a bill. This morning, I asked my colleague from Marc-Aurèle-Fortin if he thought that the government was in a little too much of a hurry to pass its bills and everything to do with its law and order legislative agenda. In fact, it seems that they want to move quickly, that they want to ram it down our throats so that citizens will think that it is the kind of good government that defends the widows and orphans. That kind of government does not necessarily advertise the replacement of doorknobs, as occurred recently. They spent $100,000 to announce that some doorknobs were going to be replaced. I have serious doubts about the pertinence of certain aspects of this bill.

I have serious doubts and at the same time, out of concern for those people we must protect, we must ensure that the bills put forward will truly meet the needs of our citizens and our society.

To that end, we truly need a government that works with the provinces and territories to ensure that we have all the structures required to implement the bill. If we do not have enough police officers or enough supports in place to implement this bill, we will not be able to thwart those who have been engaging in fraud for a very long time and who will continue to do so.

My colleague talked about a person who went away on vacation and returned home to find someone else living in his house. That could happen to anyone. We have to recognize that in our society, fraudsters are the most obvious bad guys, but they are not the only bad guys on the list. Other individuals help carry out these crimes. There have been corrupt notaries, corrupt lawyers, and less-than-honest bank and financial institution employees. We have to understand that perpetrating fraud can involve several people.

We saw that with Vincent Lacroix and Norbourg. The bank he was dealing with gave him tips for committing fraud. That is not right. Individuals who should be trustworthy betrayed the trust of people who placed their money in such institutions. The important thing is for the government to work with the provinces, but I have my doubts.

As my colleague from Shefford pointed out, this government is not interested in working with any of the provinces on a long-term basis on issues that really matter. It claims to be open, to want to work with the provinces, but when real things happen, when real situations arise, they ignore the National Assembly of Quebec's unanimous—that being the operative word—decisions. We have seen this happen with Kyoto, with the securities commission, and now. The government is willing to go to the Supreme Court to make sure that it can implement something that nobody other than the federal government and Ontario want because they are the only ones who would benefit.

We have to be wary of this government. I say that because I know that someone tried to impersonate me in my riding, to impersonate my office by sending my fellow citizens various brochures. I did not send these items, which were about the Conservatives' so-called recovery plan, their so-called Bill C-268. They accused Bloc members in general and me in particular of speaking against children and for molesters and abusers. That too is fraud. That too is taking advantage of people's weakness, taking advantage of elderly people who are isolated. That is playing on people's fears. It is not honest, and it is not right.

Having seen such false advertising, who can blame us for doubting the government's good faith when it says that it wants to pass its law and order legislative agenda to help victims of crime? If the government wants to help these people, it should do something about the 500 First Nations women who were murdered and raped. Nothing was done for them, nobody looked for any answers, nobody tried to figure out why it happened or find the people who did it. If the government really wants to help victims of crime, it should act on the information we already have, in areas under its jurisdiction that it has the power to do something about.

It should not try to intervene in areas that are not under its jurisdiction.

I will close by saying that we will vote for this bill because we truly believe that white-collar criminals should be punished and put in jail.

I would remind my colleagues that such criminals should be very glad we voted against minimum prison sentences, because as of now, those sentences would have applied to them.

[Carole Lavallée, Bloc, Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC]

Mr. Speaker, first of all, I would like to congratulate the hon. member for Laval for her excellent presentation on identity theft. This is an extremely serious problem that has existed for a long time. It seems as though identity theft is now rampant, not only in Quebec, Canada and North America, but all over the world.

My colleague used an analogy that may sound like a joke, namely the identity theft by the Conservatives who steal the government's identity when they present cheques.

I wonder if she could elaborate on this type of identity theft. Would it be covered by Bill S-4, and could it be deemed to be a criminal issue?

[Nicole Demers, Bloc, Laval, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member for Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert. I also congratulate her for the thoroughness and the wisdom that she displays in dealing with every issue that she tackles. We know she works very hard for the Quebec cultural community and, therefore, for the Canadian cultural sector.

She is very familiar with the issue that she just raised. We talked about it earlier in the lobby. It is one of her assistants who pointed out this situation. She is absolutely right. We see MPs presenting cheques bearing the Conservative Party logo, instead of the Government of Canada logo. We see MPs presenting cheques with their photo and their signature, instead of the Government of Canada signature. Let us not forget that when the government gives money, that money does not come from the party, but from the government.

Taxpayers across Canada and Quebec should expect their political representatives to be honest when they are given the responsibility of managing money. We are well aware that 57% of the funds allocated this year to projects under the economic recovery plan were given to Conservative ridings. We are well aware that Quebec only received 7% of the money allocated under that plan. We know very well why, and we also know that the funding provided found its way in ridings where the blue is darker. It was definitely not in ridings with the lighter blue of the Bloc Québécois. No, it was in dark blue ridings.

My colleague is right and I say it is fraud. It is not honest. It is dishonest and the people involved should consider themselves very lucky that this bill includes a provision exempting government officials.

[Paule Brunelle, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I want to congratulate the hon. member for Laval for her comments which, as usual, were relevant. This member of Parliament is very passionate about her work and she is dedicated to the well-being of her community.

When we talk about identity theft, it is essential to frame the debate. Indeed, identity theft affects the whole integrity of a person. It affects the person's physical and psychological integrity, and it is a very disturbing experience.

As parliamentarians, we certainly have a responsibility to ensure that the public can feel safe and confident regarding all aspects of life, including financial and other ones.

I wonder if the hon. member could elaborate on those individuals who steal other people's identity. I would also ask her to explain how, by addressing people's emotions rather than their intelligence, we end up undermining their confidence. I would also like her to tell us to what extent we parliamentarians must be honest, must live in a glass house and must protect ourselves from any loss of confidence.

[Nicole Demers, Bloc, Laval, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I thank my hon. colleague from Trois-Rivières, who also works very hard for her fellow citizens. Every time Conservative members rise to speak, they praise the Conservative member who spoke before them, so I presume we can do the same. I would therefore like to sing the praises of my colleague from Trois-Rivières, who is a model member.

She is quite right. I think more money needs to be invested in prevention and education. As we were saying earlier, this crime is quite often committed against vulnerable people—people who are isolated, older people, people who are unable to talk to someone else or ask for more information.

She is also right to say that we must be careful. This crime really attacks people's integrity and hurts people on the deepest possible level. Having your identity stolen really leaves you feeling violated. For a woman, this is not an easy situation. It is not an enviable situation. I can attest to that.

The most important thing my colleague said is the fact that all members of this House must be held responsible. All members of this House must ensure that laws are respected by everyone. Yes, we live in a glass house, and because we live in a glass house, we must remain beyond reproach. My colleague knows this very well.

Fortunately, in Quebec, René Lévesque cleaned up public finances. He made sure that all the members of the various national parties had to be honest and that contributions came from individuals, and not from businesses. Very stringent rules were introduced. I would like those rules to be the same for everyone, for all MPPs and all MPs. We must all inevitably obey those rules. We need to be as pure as the driven snow, considering the people we represent, who have honoured us by electing us to this House.

[Robert Vincent, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to commend my three colleagues on their eloquent speeches which, more importantly, dealt directly with the issue at hand. Often, members stray from the subject of a bill, but in this instance, I think we stuck to the issue.

We mentioned prevention. Members will agree that it is all fine and well to talk about ways to repress new offences, but the fact remains that the only aspect that was neglected was prevention.

Prevention is also an important aspect. Looking into prevention would already go a long way toward stopping repression and stopping crime. As I said earlier in my speech, without prevention, things are allowed to continue and they will not improve over time.

I would like to hear my hon. colleague on the issue of prevention. I think this is an important objective for a bill.

[Nicole Demers, Bloc, Laval, QC]

Mr. Speaker, once again, my colleague from Shefford is right. In terms of prevention, efforts have to be made to educate the public, particularly to reduce the number of victims. Better regulations are needed to provide better guidelines for the management, storage and disposal of information by companies. There is also a need for measures to ensure increased security and uniformity of the processes for issuing and verifying people's identity documents.

In the past, it was discovered that many identity documents did not have a valid owner. There were 2.9 million social insurance numbers that did not belong to anyone. There are 2.9 more million social insurance numbers in circulation than the number of Canadians in the labour force. That is unthinkable. That is unbelievable. What steps are we taking to remedy that? What does this bill or any other bill introduced by the government provide to change how things are done? So far, the government has done nothing to address the problem. This is not the first time that we point this out. The problem has been around for many years.

Teaching Excellence

[Joe Preston, Conservative, Elgin—Middlesex—London, ON]

Mr. Speaker, we have all known those special teachers who had an impact on our lives. Ron Vandecasteele and Sherry Lalonde are two of the 2009 recipients of the Prime Minister's Awards for Teaching Excellence and Excellence in Early Childhood Education.

Ron teaches at a residential treatment centre for adolescent males. He could have worked anywhere, but he chose to teach and inspire these young men. To quote one of his students, “He is the best teacher ever. He is the first teacher that can explain things so I can understand them”.

Sherry teaches young children at the YWCA and is known to respond creatively to each child's individual needs. In the words of one of the parents, “Sherry defines excellence, not only within the walls of her classroom, but with her unique ability to become an integral part of our children's life learning process”.

I would like to take this time to acknowledge the hard work of Ron and Sherry, and I congratulate them on this truly tremendous honour.

Hon. Stanley Haidasz

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Mr. Speaker, on August 6, the hon. Dr. Stanley Haidasz passed away. With the passing of Dr. Haidasz, the people of Canada lost a great Canadian; the Polish-Canadian community lost an outstanding trailblazer; parliamentarians lost a colleague, and my family and I lost a friend.

When Prime Minister Pierre Elliott Trudeau announced that Canada should no longer be referred to as a bicultural nation and was in fact a multicultural nation, the person he turned to to implement this landmark federal policy initiative was none other than Stanley Haidasz, who became Canada's very first Minister of State for Multiculturalism.

By appointing someone with a name like Haidasz, Trudeau made it clear that he saw multiculturalism as a foundational principle of our Canada.

Although Dr. Haidasz passed away this summer, I felt it appropriate that I take the opportunity today to mark this great parliamentarian's contributions to our country.

[Member spoke in Polish, as follows:]

Wieczny odpoczynek racz mu dac Panie.