Mr. Speaker, I agree with the hon. minister that we have the same objective. The minister says that the only significant difference, or the only single difference as he might even have put it, is the issue of listing. That is a dramatic difference which goes to the core of the difference in our legislation. It undermines the very purpose, as I indicated, of the government's raison d'ĂȘtre in its legislation. It is a crucial difference, for listing retains the principle of state immunity for the most part.
In our private member's legislation we wished to reverse the notion, whereas the Conservative bill takes as its basic premise that state immunity should still operate and victims of terrorism would be unable to sue a country that should be held responsible unless the Canadian government decides it should not be held responsible. Under our private member's legislation we take the basic premise that state immunity should not operate an injustice by denying victims of terrorism their day in court.
The minister, if I can sum him up, made a point about listing possibly preventing frivolous or vexatious lawsuits against our democratic allies and the like. While our private member's bill would remove immunity from perpetrators of terrorism and state sponsors of terrorism, it also has an exception with respect to civil remedies for victims of terrorism. It refers to those countries with whom we have an extradition treaty; that is, those countries that respect and are anchored in the rule of law, have an independent judiciary, a democratic process and the like. Victims of terrorism could seek redress in those countries because of the democratic nature of the regimes, the independent judiciary and due process. We have addressed that issue.
What we are saying is that with the rest of the international community the situation should not be an arbitrary listing, which is always going to be subject to political negotiation, which in turn is going to make our foreign relations more difficult, where the government makes the choice as to who should be sued rather than the victim being able to exercise the judgment as to whom should be sued. In other words, it still retains the principle of state immunity. Our private member's bill would remove state immunity except for democracies anchored in the rule of law.
It is possible to frame legislation between the government's bill and our bill that would protect victims of terrorism, offer them an effective remedy, and remove the principle of state immunity, which continues to operate under the government's legislation through the listing process.