Debates of Nov. 20th, 2009

Afghanistan

[Pierre Paquette, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

Mr. Speaker, beginning in May 2006, Richard Colvin, who was second in command at the embassy in Kabul at the time, sent reports to the Prime Minister's closest advisers, including Margaret Bloodworth, his national security adviser, about allegations that Afghan detainees were being tortured.

In December 2006, Ms. Bloodworth participated in a Privy Council meeting specifically to discuss cases of torture carried out by the Kandahar governor himself.

Will the Prime Minister admit that he was aware of the situation as of May 2006 and that instead of doing his job, he tried to make the issue go away by covering it up?

[John Baird, Conservative, Minister of Transport]

Mr. Speaker, that is quite outrageous. In his testimony before the Common's committee earlier this week, Mr. Colvin confirmed, and let me underline this again, that he never witnessed abuse first-hand.

His allegations are nothing short of hearsay. They involve, sometimes, second-hand and even third-hand accounts and information. Even worse, some of the information could have come directly from the Taliban. He will not even name or identify his sources.

Even worse, when asked why he did not raise this with one of the number of ministers who came through Afghanistan during his tenure, he said he did not want to do so. He said, “I've met several ministers, but I did not raise these issues with them. It would be a bit—

[The Speaker, Liberal, Peter Milliken]

The hon. member for Joliette.

[Pierre Paquette, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

Mr. Speaker, it is simply that Mr. Colvin followed the hierarchical chain of command. He thought that the information had arrived, which indeed it had, because in 2006, members of the Prime Minister's inner circle, namely David Mulroney, his defence advisor, and Margaret Bloodworth, his security adviser, were discussing the torture of Afghan detainees. The Prime Minister, who is well-known for controlling everything in the government, knew.

Will the Prime Minister admit that, instead of assuming his responsibilities under international conventions, he did his best to bury the affair by trying to muzzle Mr. Colvin in 2007 and now, as well?

[John Baird, Conservative, Minister of Transport]

Mr. Speaker, we have to deal with facts. We have to deal with specific allegations. We have to deal with substantiated charges. Regrettably we do not have them.

Mr. Colvin was asked why he did not raise this issue with the number of ministers who visited Afghanistan when he would have had the opportunity to raise it specifically with them. He said that while he met several ministers, he thought it would be a bit inappropriate to mention these issues because, “it would ruin a minister's visit”.

This certainly does not add credibility to the serious allegations he makes.

[Michel Guimond, Bloc, Montmorency—Charlevoix—Haute-Côte-Nord, QC]

Mr. Speaker, this week, the government shot the messenger by attacking the credibility of diplomat Richard Colvin.

Let us talk about credibility. On one hand, we have a government that is trying to hide the fact that it breached its international obligations by handing detainees over to torture. On the other hand, we have a career diplomat who is adding his voice to a number of credible organizations, such as Amnesty International and the Red Cross, to denounce the harm caused to the Afghan detainees.

Does the government realize that the only way to re-establish what little credibility it has left, is to be transparent—

[The Speaker, Liberal, Peter Milliken]

The hon. Minister of Transport.

[John Baird, Conservative, Minister of Transport]

Mr. Speaker, let us be very clear. When we get credible, substantiated and specific evidence, we act.

Look what former, well-respected diplomat Paul Chapin said, “I think that what set me back is how serious the allegations are and how flimsy the evidence”: flimsy evidence.

[Michel Guimond, Bloc, Montmorency—Charlevoix—Haute-Côte-Nord, QC]

Mr. Speaker, instead of clearly explaining itself before the Military Police Complaints Commission, the government chose to use every trick in the book to bury the truth. The government prevents witnesses from appearing, orders reports on torture to no longer be written down but to be made over the phone, and intimidates those who agree to come forward to work for justice.

Does the government realize that only a public inquiry will help uncover the truth?

[John Baird, Conservative, Minister of Transport]

Mr. Speaker, with respect to not allowing people to come before committee, Mr. Colvin testified just this week before the House committee. In that testimony he did not present any substantiated, specific allegations of what he claimed.

We are required in government to act on fact, not on hearsay, not on second and third accounts and certainly not on information that came from the Taliban.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Mr. Speaker, the Conservatives' enemy list now includes Amnesty International, the Afghan Independent Human Rights Commission and, get this, the U.S. State Department.

Mr. Colvin was not the only diplomat who saw evidence of torture. Nicholas Gosselin saw evidence that a detainee was beaten with electrical wires and a rubber hose.

Is the government suggesting that Mr. Gosselin was also in league with the Taliban? Will the government finally help Canadians sort out this truth and fiction story, get to the facts and call a public inquiry?

[John Baird, Conservative, Minister of Transport]

Mr. Speaker, despite the loud voice of my friend from Ottawa Centre, he himself just said “truth or fiction”.

In regard to a public inquiry, this government is only going to look at specific, substantiated facts. We will not base our government's actions on hearsay, on gossip. We will not base them on unsubstantiated allegations and certainly not on information that comes from the Taliban.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Mr. Speaker, instead of attacking Mr. Colvin, the government should be congratulating him.

The problem is that this government prefers to shoot the messenger. The Conservatives prefer to attack senior officials and diplomats rather than face the truth. We must put an end to this cover-up.

When will there be a public inquiry?

[John Baird, Conservative, Minister of Transport]

Mr. Speaker, it is not a question of the messenger. It is a question of the message.

We are required in government to deal with facts before we make decisions. There has not been any evidence brought forward by Mr. Colvin with respect to the serious allegations that he has made. They are unsubstantiated. They involve hearsay. They also contain information that comes from the Taliban. We are required to act on a higher standard than that.

I should remind members opposite that there has not been a single, solitary proven allegation involving a transferred Taliban prisoner.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Foreign Affairs has said that Canadian officials have made 182 visits to Afghan prisons to assess and monitor conditions in them. Yet the Afghan Independent Human Rights Commission and the United States State Department say that torture still remains commonplace in these prisons.

Canadians need to have confidence that we are not violating international law in this matter.

Will the government make public the reports by Canadian officials who have visited Afghan prisons, or will it continue to claim that everything is all right without revealing the facts?

[Peter Kent, Conservative, Minister of State of Foreign Affairs (Americas)]

Mr. Speaker, Canadian officials over the years have underscored the need for authorities to treat detainees both humanely and in accordance with Afghanistan's international obligations.

Again this week at the inauguration of President Karzai, the Minister of Foreign Affairs underscored that the new administration must continue to attack these human rights challenges.

[Wayne Easter, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

Mr. Speaker, Richard Colvin is the latest in a long list of honest Canadians who have had the integrity and courage to speak out on government wrongdoing; to name a few: Linda Keen, Canadian Nuclear Safety Commission; Adrian Measner, Canadian Wheat Board; Matthew Bramley, environmentalist. All of these individuals have been personally attacked as a defence for government inaction.

Instead of listening and taking corrective action, the Conservative government engages in character assassination after character assassination.

Is there nothing the Conservative government will not do to people who come forward and expose its shortcomings?

[John Baird, Conservative, Minister of Transport]

As I said earlier, Mr. Speaker, Mr. Colvin testified before committee and presented no specific evidence. He presented only hearsay, second-hand and third-hand information, information that came from the Taliban in some cases.

We have acted in the past when we have gotten specific evidence. We must have substantiated evidence. Look at what Rick Hillier has said. Look at what Lieutenant General Michel Gauthier has said, the actual commander on the ground. He said, “...why any of us in the military command would knowingly and deliberately ignore substantial evidence from the field that could ultimately implicate us...”.

[Wayne Easter, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

The minister makes my point, Mr. Speaker.

One of the defining characteristics of the Conservative government is its vile tactics of fear and intimidation imposed upon Canadians who have the courage to speak truth to power.

In the case of Afghan detainees, the attack on the credibility of a dedicated public servant is designed to cover up what the government knew and when.

To expose the truth, will the minister call a full independent judicial inquiry? Would the government, for once, allow the truth to come forth?

[John Baird, Conservative, Minister of Transport]

Mr. Speaker, there have been public hearings that have been televised on this very issue. In those hearings, Mr. Colvin came before the House committee and presented no specific allegations, unsubstantiated claims, something that basically was hearsay. His information was sometimes second-hand and even third-hand, and that should concern us all.

We have been very public and very open in our mission in Afghanistan. We have had votes in Parliament, something that never happened previously when that party was in power.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

Mr. Speaker, while Mr. Colvin is doing his duty, the government continues to wage a pathetic smear campaign to drag his name through the mud. In a galaxy far, far away, light years away apparently, the minister sees no evidence of torture, only allegations, he says. He considers himself the only judge of truth and waves testimony aside.

Why is it that every time someone stands up to tell the truth, the Conservatives' reputation-shredding machine goes into battle?

[John Baird, Conservative, Minister of Transport]

Mr. Speaker, it is important to note that this government has been incredibly transparent with respect to the mission in Afghanistan.

The Prime Minister made a sincere commitment in an election campaign to allow parliamentarians themselves to vote on whether our troops should be deployed abroad or whether extensions should be given. We have had two votes in this place.

The government has been very transparent. We have provided the information to Parliament through quarterly reports and thousands of documents from both the Federal Court and the MPCC relating to the issue of the transfer of Taliban prisoners.

This matter of Taliban prisoner transfers has been raised and questions have been answered in the House numerous times. We must deal with facts, not with hearsay.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

Mr. Speaker, a public inquiry, not a court of star chamber, is the only way for the truth to surface. The government may think this is about protecting itself, but it is not. We owe a public inquiry to our troops, to our diplomats, to our development workers, to our partners. We owe it to Canadians.

What exactly happened here? Who received and read copies of the reports? How many times has the government publicly denied that there was a problem? It goes on and on. While our troops are fighting for openness and transparency in Afghanistan, why is the government undermining those very values here at home?

[John Baird, Conservative, Minister of Transport]

Mr. Speaker, this government has shown an unprecedented commitment to our troops. It was General Rick Hillier who called the Liberals' time in power, with respect to the service of men and women in uniform, a “decade of darkness”. We have done a lot to turn that around.

It is important to be very clear that no one, not even Mr. Colvin, has made any suggestion, presented one shred of evidence or made any insinuation that Canadian soldiers mistreated Taliban prisoners. It is tremendously important to underline that that is not the case. Let me be very clear that these stories are about Afghan allegations against other Afghans.

Climate Change

[Bernard Bigras, Bloc, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

Mr. Speaker, new research shows that global temperatures are expected to increase by 6^oC, rather than 2^oC, which will seriously threaten living conditions on this planet. Clearly, serious efforts are needed to significantly reduce greenhouse gas emissions before this situation gets completely out of hand.

Are these scenarios not enough to convince the government to take constructive action in Copenhagen, instead of sabotaging that meeting?