House of Commons Hansard #30 of the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was senate.

Topics

Questions on the Order PaperRoutine Proceedings

12:25 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

Canada-EFTA Free Trade Agreement Implementation ActGovernment Orders

12:25 p.m.

Conservative

The Deputy Speaker Conservative Andrew Scheer

The member for Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel has the floor to continue his speech. He had 12 minutes remaining before members' statements.

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12:25 p.m.

Bloc

Mario Laframboise Bloc Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to continue the debate on Bill C-2, Canada-EFTA Free Trade Agreement Implementation Act, which we have been discussing today.

I would like to remind everyone that when it comes time to discuss a bill to implement a free trade agreement, it is important that we weigh the pros and cons in a responsible fashion. It is important because every sector is affected by trade between the countries. In this agreement, there are some significant sectors, some of which are of considerable influence in our economy.

For example, Quebec has aluminum, which is our leading export to Iceland, one of the signatories to this agreement. Nickel accounts for 80% of our exports to Norway, and that nickel comes from a mine in Ungava operated by Xstrata, a Swiss company. There is also the pharmaceutical sector. Switzerland is one of the world's leading producers of pharmaceuticals. Quebec has an industry that engages in the research, development and sale of generic and prescription drugs. This industry is very strong, because when the Parti Québécois was in power, the Government of Quebec decided to provide it with substantial assistance, with the result that an important structure was put in place. We also have to think about agriculture, because we sell and trade agricultural products with these countries. It was important to us that supply management not be on the table. Milk, poultry, eggs and so on are supply-managed products, and supply management makes the industry profitable. There has been no government assistance for this type of industry since supply management was introduced.

This type of free trade agreement therefore must be analyzed responsibly. There is also a whole other sector, and that is shipbuilding. This is an important part of this agreement, because Norway, for example, is a major shipbuilding nation and its shipyards have been subsidized in the past.

When we do such an analysis, it is important to get to the bottom of things. This free trade agreement is good for many industry sectors, but there is a problem when it comes to shipbuilding. That is why there are specific clauses on shipbuilding. The customs tariffs in effect will be phased out over 15 years, and there will also be a moratorium for a number of years. These clauses were included in the treaty because people knew there was a problem. This is important because it is a crucial part of the discussions in this House. I am willing to debate it, but I have a concern. The shipbuilding industry is calling on Canada to develop a real Canadian marine policy that could solve the problems and keep this industry going.

Despite the fact that the industry, the Bloc Québécois and other parties in this House have been calling for it, the government will not listen. When the Minister of International Trade rose earlier to give his speech, he said nothing to reassure us.

He thinks that everything is for the best in the best of all possible worlds. Even though the industry believes that Canada needs a real marine policy, that is not important to him. This is worrisome. Instead of debating this bill, we should have reached a consensus in this House to pass it, because this agreement is good for the Quebec economy and the Canadian economy. Instead, we should at this very moment be debating a real marine policy for Canada, to reassure the entire shipbuilding sector and all other businesses, and to show them we are tackling the problems they have brought to our attention.

Thus, we will have to work very hard to convince this government of the need for a real marine policy for Canada. Once this bill passes, I hope the industry and all the parties, including the Conservatives, will understand that it is high time to do so. Now is the time. The tariffs will be gradually phased out over the next 15 years. That time period will also allow us to ensure that our industry can compete with Norway. That is the issue that we should have been addressing.

When conducting a thorough analysis of an issue as important as a free trade agreement, one must always weigh the pros and the cons. There are the pros I mentioned earlier, such as aluminum, nickel, the pharmaceutical industry, agriculture, and so on for Quebec. The agreement might even be good for pulp and paper mills. Once again, supply management has successfully been excluded, which is not the case with other agreements the government signed that jeopardized supply management. This time, the government listened to the Bloc Québécois and excluded supply management from the agreement.

For those who suggest that it would have been easier just to exclude shipbuilding from the treaty, I would point out that shipbuilding is one of Norway's economic strengths. Had we excluded shipbuilding, there would be no agreement, and we would not be talking about it today.

We have to adopt a conciliatory approach to these issues. We have to be open in our approach to these agreements, and we have to do a macroeconomic analysis of the advantages and disadvantages. When there is one sector in particular that could be disadvantaged, such as shipbuilding, we have to address the problem.

I was hoping the minister would talk about that today. Since the witnesses who appeared before the committee—and, indeed the entire shipbuilding industry—are uncomfortable about this, the Minister of International Trade could have told us that the government planned to deal with the problem, support the industry, and ensure that, once the 15 years are up, our industry will be competitive. If it can compete with Norway, it will be able to compete with every other shipbuilding concern in the world.

However, that is not the sense we are getting from the Conservative government. Time and again, it is all about their Conservative laissez-faire ideology. As it turns out, apply that approach to some sectors, and those sectors disappear. The opposition should attack that ideology and try to convince the Conservatives that, when it comes to shipbuilding, they must set their ideology aside and talk about a real Canadian marine policy. The industry would have found that reassuring.

At the same time, we have to act responsibly. The Bloc Québécois studied this free-trade agreement and weighed the advantages and disadvantages for all industries that will be affected. This is a first because the Canada-EFTA agreement covers Switzerland, Norway, Liechtenstein and Iceland. The real objective, for Quebeckers, is to have a true free-trade agreement with the European Union. That is the objective.

Even the Premier of Quebec, Mr. Charest, who does not share my political views, is defending it. He recently travelled abroad in the middle of the economic crisis in Quebec. That is up to him. Nevertheless, he has taken a clear position on a free-trade agreement with the European Union, which reflects the unanimous position of the National Assembly of Quebec. Therefore, agreements with European countries are welcome. Naturally, given our population and the relative strength of our industries in Quebec or Canada, we have to be open to the world in order to develop. By not looking beyond our borders we will never be able to develop and reach our full potential. Just think of the aerospace sector and many others.

Therefore, we must be able to create a greater vision for the economy of the future, but also for the future of our economy. We believe this Canada-EFTA free-trade agreement is the way of the future with its advantages and disadvantages. Obviously, it puts shipbuilding at a disadvantage. Therefore, I hope that the government has heard everyone's position in this House, especially that of the Bloc Québécois, which has said that it is time for the government to sit down and adopt a real Canadian marine policy. The industry has been calling for it for many years. Naturally, starting today, we will support everything that can lead to a real Canadian marine policy so that, once the 15 years have passed, our shipbuilding industry will be able to compete with Norway and all other countries.

Canada-EFTA Free Trade Agreement Implementation ActGovernment Orders

12:40 p.m.

NDP

Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC

Mr. Speaker, I am profoundly disappointed. The Bloc came here to change Ottawa, yet it seems that Ottawa has changed the Bloc Québécois. They come back with the same old free trade policies as George Bush, the Conservative Party and the Liberal Party. It is exactly the same thing, despite the fact that Quebec's workers are asking them to change their policy.

The Lauzon shipyard workers' union has clearly said:

We represent CSN-affiliated workers working at the Lévis shipyard. We stand with workers in all Canadian shipyards in supporting your efforts to exclude Canadian shipyards from the Canada-European Free Trade Association Free Trade Agreement.

It is very clear. Quebec's workers are telling the Bloc Québécois that they are on the wrong track and making a mistake. They are following the same old free trade policies that linger mainly in Canada. The United States has moved on to a fair trade approach. Here in Canada we are stuck with the old parties making the same old speeches, and this includes the Bloc Québécois.

Now, there is only one question I would like to ask. The Bloc seems to have something against the Quebec City area and the workers in Lévis. Workers in the Quebec City area are asking the Bloc Québécois to say no to this agreement, to take shipyards out of it. Is it that the Bloc Québécois is still upset with Quebec City and that they want to punish workers in the Quebec City area and those who work at the Lauzon shipyard because they did not vote the right way, that is, they did not vote for the Bloc Québécois during the last election? That is the only explanation—

Canada-EFTA Free Trade Agreement Implementation ActGovernment Orders

12:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Acting Speaker Liberal Derek Lee

The hon. member for Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel.

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12:40 p.m.

Bloc

Mario Laframboise Bloc Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC

Of course, the Bloc Québécois does not practice the same politics as the NDP. That party practices the politics of 30 years ago. Its political ideas date from 30 years ago. And the New Democrats will be practising the same politics for the next 30 years. That is their legacy.

I have a copy of the letter from the Lauzon shipyard workers' union and I will finish reading the paragraph. It says:

We are convinced that the creation of a Canadian marine policy would be much more profitable and beneficial for the shipbuilding industry than this kind of free trade agreement.

This is where the Bloc Québécois will help. The Bloc Québécois will ask the NDP to work towards creating a real Canadian marine policy. One thing I regret about this House is that the NDP does not attack the Conservatives' laissez-faire ideology. The NDP has decided to attack this agreement. However, as I said earlier, when looking at a free trade agreement, one must do so with macroeconomics in mind. I will not grandstand, as they tend to do, nor will I say that the NDP is attacking the aluminum industry, the nickel industry and the pharmaceutical industry. I will not say that about them. But the fact remains, when you practice the politics of 30 years ago, it is easy to return to old habits.

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12:40 p.m.

NDP

Alex Atamanenko NDP British Columbia Southern Interior, BC

Mr. Speaker, I wish to thank my hon. colleague for his speech, but I would like him to answer the following question.

How is it that the three other parties in this House voted against the workers of Canada's shipbuilding industry? Clearly, in 15 years, Canada is going to lose that industry. The statistics are clear. It is also clear that the United States is protecting its shipbuilding industry, as are other countries.

How is it that, here in Canada, no one cares about the shipbuilding industry and we agreed to sign this agreement for no good reason, other than to have an agreement signed? I would like him to explain that.

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12:45 p.m.

Bloc

Mario Laframboise Bloc Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC

Mr. Speaker, first of all, the member knows very well that the very text of the agreement indicates special concern for shipbuilding: there is a 15-year period, a moratorium. Therefore the entire text is up for discussion. Naturally it is an important issue.

When looking at a free trade agreement from a macroeconomic perspective, there are positives and there are negatives. One of the negatives pertains to shipbuilding. Therefore, Canada must decide to tackle the problem. Of course, if the NDP decides to pout in its corner and not put any effort into making progress on a Canadian marine policy, there will be problems. That is why I stated in my speech that I was disappointed today that there was not unanimous support for Bill C-2and for tackling a real Canadian marine policy.

Once again, it shows divisiveness. We are trying to make our colleagues understand that we have to put our partisanship aside and try to work on the real needs of the industry by developing a Canadian marine policy. When Bill C-2 is adopted, the Bloc Québécois will be available. We have 15 years to adopt a policy and to ensure that our shipbuilders will be competitive.

If they are able to compete with Norway, they will be able to compete with every other country. It is a good opportunity.

If the NDP decides to stay in its corner and to do everything it can to prevent a discussion of this issue and if the Conservatives are no longer keen on it, they will have the backing of the NDP for not having a Canadian marine policy. That is the situation we find ourselves in.

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12:45 p.m.

NDP

Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC

Mr. Speaker, I quite like the member, but he is misleading Quebeckers.

More than half of all Quebeckers want fair trade. That is what most Quebeckers want. But the Bloc Québécois is aligning with the Conservative Party and the Liberal Party, both of which are championing John McCain and George W. Bush's behind-the-times ideas. It is absurd to suggest that we cannot protect certain strategic industries.

Workers in the Lévis and Lauzon shipyards have asked the Bloc Québécois to vote in favour of the NDP amendment to exclude shipbuilding from the agreement. The United Stated have done so systematically. Under their Jones act, they have excluded shipbuilding and shipyards to ensure that the industry can make a full contribution to their economy.

The NDP is the only party in the House that says that shipyards deserve our support and should be excluded from the agreement. This is the only way to force the government to come up with a proper marine policy.

Why is the Bloc supporting an agreement that sells out shipbuilding when the NDP is offering a solution that would bring in a marine policy? Saying that we might come up with something someday is not good enough. This agreement will kill shipbuilding. That is what shipyard workers all over Canada, including those in the Lauzon shipyard, have told us.

They have made their needs clear. Why is the NDP the only party listening to these workers?

Canada-EFTA Free Trade Agreement Implementation ActGovernment Orders

12:45 p.m.

Bloc

Mario Laframboise Bloc Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC

Mr. Speaker, one thing is certain, and that is that the Bloc Québécois wants to protect the values and interests of Quebeckers. The government says it is open to discussions with the world. At a time of crisis, the Premier of Quebec took the trouble to spend a few weeks discussing a possible free trade agreement between Quebec and the rest of the European Union with EU representatives. We have to keep in mind that Quebec has a population of 7 million, while Canada has a population of 33 million. If we want to lead the world in aluminum, nickel, aerospace and many other industries, we have to be able to open up to world markets.

Obviously, when we enter into agreements and analyze them on a macroeconomic level, we see that they have advantages and disadvantages. One of the disadvantages of this agreement has to do with the shipbuilding sector. However, because of the political divide in this House, which is supported by the NDP, we are unable to tackle the issue of a real shipbuilding policy.

Canada-EFTA Free Trade Agreement Implementation ActGovernment Orders

12:50 p.m.

NDP

Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC

Mr. Speaker, this is an extremely important debate, which is why the NDP is following through, as we have at each level of the debate, to ensure the voices of shipyard workers from coast to coast are actually heard in this debate.

As members well know, there is an Ottawa bubble that is incredibly strong for new members of Parliament, the Conservatives, Liberals and even Bloc members. They come here and forget about the interests of their constituents. It happens time and time again. We see these with trade agreements that sell out Canadians and sell out Canadian jobs.

Essentially, we have Conservative and Liberal MPs who only listen to corporate CEOs, even as those corporate CEOs are moving jobs offshore to other countries, to the third world where they can pay miserable wages and then sell their goods back in Canada. The result has been a hemorrhaging of manufacturing jobs over the last few years, hundreds of thousands of manufacturing jobs lost, and still the government persists in bringing forward sellout agreements, agreements that have not been negotiated with any strength, that have not been negotiated with the interests of the country in mind, but are simply agreements that sell out various sectors of the Canadian economy in the hope that somehow, magically, through George Bush-style free trade agreements, there will be economic benefits.

The reality, which Statistics Canada tells us very clearly, is that approach does not worked. Over the last 20 years, for about three-quarters of Canadian families, their real income has actually gone down, and many of them are listening today. They have seen how disastrous right-wing economic policies, including George Bush-style free trade agreements, have been for the country. They are earning less now than they were 20 years ago. If that is not a silent economic crisis, I do not know what is.

The whole basis that somehow throwing these agreements out and selling out various sectors creates jobs in Canada simply does not work and does not hold up. It is very clear. When the bottom line of these agreements and the whole lack of industrial strategies in a whole variety of sectors does not work, one would think the government would think twice, but no, from Liberals to Conservatives, it is just the same old thing.

Perhaps that is why the NDP representation in this House over the last few years has tripled. It is because people are saying that it does not work in their communities. People are tired of working for minimum wage jobs and are tired of seeing their manufacturing facilities close down.

We saw that with the softwood sellout, which the Liberals and Bloc Québécois members now regret supporting. They are trying to distance themselves as the penalties now start coming into play, with $68 million last week and probably $400 million that softwood communities and small softwood companies, the ones that have survived, will have to pay when the next decision comes down.

It is absolutely absurd and now, the opposition parties that helped the Conservatives drive the getaway car in the softwood sellout, are trying to pretend that they were not in the car. Canadians are not fooled by that.

Now we have an agreement coming forward that every representative, whether a worker's representative or an owner's representative, representing shipbuilding across this country from coast to coast, have said will kill our shipbuilding industry. It has been unanimous. We are not talking about some difference of opinion. We are talking about unanimous recommendations to carve out shipbuilding from the agreement and yet not one Conservative MP has stood up for shipbuilding, even though, in many cases, they represent shipbuilding workers in their ridings. The Bloc Québécois, as I mentioned in French just a few minutes ago, despite being pressed by shipyard workers in Lévis, Quebec, is refusing to stand up for shipyard workers.

Only one party in this Parliament is standing up for shipyard workers and that is the NDP and that is because we have our own shipbuilding critic, the member of Parliament for Sackville—Eastern Shore. We have a new member of Parliament for Welland who represents the shipbuilding workers there and who is doing a terrific job as well.

We represent our constituents. We are standing up for shipbuilding workers. It is not as if the members can pretend they have not heard. Hundreds and hundreds of letters have been pouring in, especially to Liberal MP offices, telling them to support the NDP's amendment for the carve out. More are coming in as we speak. So many are coming in that fax machines have been having difficulty keeping up. The letters say, unanimously, “Support the carve out”.

I read one of the many letters into the record earlier and I will do it again. It said:

One of the most surprising things to me as a shipyard worker is that all stakeholders in the industry including owners, operators and unions from coast-to-coast have emphasized the need for this support during the many committee meetings that were held on the use of free trade talks. It's a shame that the Liberal party of Canada feels that it has to remain a puppet of the Conservative government in supporting another bad free trade deal for Canada.

These letters are pouring in and they are heartfelt. The shipyard workers are saying that Canada has, by far, the world's longest coastline and a proud shipbuilding tradition. In fact, just a few decades ago we had the fourth largest navy on the entire planet. Shipbuilding yards were turning out ships in Vancouver. We had ships coming out every week. We had tens of thousands of shipbuilding jobs.

The reason that industry is now on its deathbed is because of a completely irresponsible approach by the former Liberal government and continued by the Conservative government. Now we have a coffin that is being presented in the middle of the House of Commons by the Conservative government through Bill C-2, which would kill and finish off our shipbuilding sector.

Liberals and Bloc members say that is okay, that they are alright, they are MPs and that they do not care about the workers in this country. What are they basing their vote on? There is some sort of airy-fairy theory that somehow Canada will be advantaged. There has been absolutely no economic impact analysis of this agreement. Not one Liberal MP, Conservative MP or Bloc Québécois MP has actually said that maybe we need to know how many jobs will be lost from this.

It is absurd that the Ottawa bubble corrupts every MP who comes from other parties. They seem incapable of standing up for Canada and for Canadians jobs once they get elected to Parliament. It is appalling. They cannot say that they did not know. Those letters are coming in, letters that the NDP has read into the record, letters from the B.C. marine workers, Davie shipyard and the Halifax shipyards. It is pretty conclusive.

What happens next? Well, we are now starting debate on third riding. In a few moments I will offering a motion that will carve out shipbuilding from this agreement.

What we are saying is that, over the next two weeks, those shipbuilding workers who are listening in today, those shipbuilding workers who have been sending their letters to Liberal MPs and those shipbuilding workers in Quebec who have been indicating to the Bloc Québécois that they should be voting for this carve-out will get another opportunity.

Over the next week, they need to let their voices be heard. They need to ensure that those MPs who are so willing to sell out our shipbuilding industry for some vague advantage that might come, although there is no economic analysis so they cannot really pinpoint anything, but those MPs will be forced to make a choice. They need to know that if they vote to sell out shipbuilding, they will not come back to the next Parliament. It needs to be that clear.

We have precedents for that. We all recall the softwood sell-out that supported by the Bloc and the Liberals. Many of those Liberal MPs who voted for the softwood lumber agreement, particularly in northern Ontario and northern Manitoba, are no longer here. People in northern Ontario and in northern Manitoba said “No, if you are not going to represent us, we are not going to return you to Parliament”. Those Liberal MPs are no longer here.

The Liberal MP from Welland, who was a flamboyant free trader on the George Bush model, is no longer here and has been replaced by a dedicated social democrat who is standing up for the workers in the riding of Welland.

More and more Canadians are saying that they do not want the old speeches that they have been hearing for 20 years that eventually something will happen, eventually our quality of life will improve, eventually we will get higher incomes, while all the money continues to be concentrated in a few people's hands. Corporate CEOs and corporate lawyers are making more money than ever. In fact, the wealthiest Canadians now take most of Canada's income. Middle class and working class families have lost ground. Their real incomes have gone down, even the hours worked have increased substantially. However, the policies that have been adopted by Liberal and Conservative governments have put the focus on the wealthiest of Canadians to the exclusion of everyone else. Increasingly, Canadians are waking up to that fact.

This is a call out for shipbuilding workers in Victoria, British Columbia and Nanaimo, B.C., shipbuilders with that proud tradition that I mentioned in Vancouver, British Columbia in the Washington yards. They need to contact their Liberal MPs and telling Conservative MPs that this sellout is completely unacceptable. Over the next week, they need to make their voices heard.

Shipbuilding workers in southern Ontario in the Welland yards, who, unfortunately, have a terrific MP, also need to make their voices heard.

People in Lévis, the workers at the Lauzon shipyard, must tell the Bloc Québécois that it is unacceptable for the Bloc to penalize Quebec City because the citizens did not vote the right way. This shipbuilding sell-out is unacceptable. These workers made it clear but they must work to make it even more clear since the Bloc does not seem to understand that this sell-out deal is even worse than the softwood lumber sell-out, which cost Quebec workers thousands of jobs. Those workers lost their jobs because the Bloc, instead of defending Quebec's interests, simply decided to go with the same old free trade policies as George Bush, the Conservatives and the Liberals. The Bloc refused to defend Quebec's interests, while these workers should have been listened to.

The shipbuilding workers in Nova Scotia have sent in hundreds of letters and they cannot be more clear, but they need to phone the MPs for Halifax West and Dartmouth—Cole Harbour who are refusing to stand up for their constituents.

The shipyard workers in Marystown, Newfoundland and Labrador, who have a very good member in the MP for St. John's East, but all of the other Newfoundland and Labrador MPs are trying to vote for an agreement that kills the jobs in Marystown. We heard that from shipyard workers across the country. Over the next week, because we will not be in session, they need to let their MPs know that this is unacceptable, that they must stand up for Canadian jobs and for their community.

The reality we face is a House where one party is defending Canadian jobs and standing up for Canada and three parties that are selling us out. They are not even selling us out with anything tangible to give us. We have no economic impact statement, nothing that actually says what advantages are here. They say that it is symbolic. I am sorry but the shipyard workers of Canada need more than symbolism. They need jobs. They need a maritime policy that actually creates more jobs. They do not need an agreement that, as shipyard workers have so clearly said to the Parliament of Canada, kills their industry.

The Conservatives say that in 30 years they will be investing more money. Well, in 30 years there will not be any shipyards left. The Liberals say that some day they will be in government and they will put a policy in place. Well, there will not be any shipyards left.

The Bloc Québécois says that it will defend Quebec's interests, except when it comes to shipbuilding. It is ready to sell out in terms of the workers' interests because it believes that Quebec will eventually come out on top. But the Bloc Québécois has nothing tangible to show because there has never been an impact study. The Bloc cannot provide any arguments that counterbalance what is being sold.

With that very clear point, I know that the hundreds of shipyard workers who have been writing to members of Parliament and the thousands of other shipyard workers across the country will be impacted by this agreement unless we get the carve-out that the NDP is proposing. We ask the shipyard workers to write in.

I will complete my speech by moving the following amendment. I move:

That the motion be amended by deleting all the words after the word “That” and substituting the following: “Bill C-2, An Act to implement the Free Trade Agreement between Canada and the States of the European Free Trade Association (Iceland, Liechtenstein, Norway, Switzerland), the Agreement on Agriculture between Canada and the Republic of Iceland, the Agreement on Agriculture between Canada and the Kingdom of Norway and the Agreement on Agriculture between Canada and the Swiss Confederation, be not now read a third time but be referred back to the Standing Committee on International Trade for the purpose of reconsidering clause 33 with a view to re-examining the phase-out of shipbuilding protections.”

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1:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Deputy Speaker Conservative Andrew Scheer

The amendment is in order.

Questions and comments. The hon. member for Sackville—Eastern Shore.

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1:05 p.m.

NDP

Peter Stoffer NDP Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS

Mr. Speaker, I again want to highlight my hon. colleague, who has done an outstanding job in committee and the House by raising the spectre of what may happen to the shipbuilding industry if these particular policies carry on.

My hon. colleague is a learned gentleman. He is not asking for anything that is against the WTO or the GATS. He is not asking for anything illegal. What he is asking for is fairness in representation of the facts when it comes to shipyard workers, shipowners and shipbuilders in the five major yards we have left in Canada.

We know for certain that if we were to get the carve-out of shipbuilding, Norway would raise concerns and might back away from it. That leads to one of the questions I would like to ask my hon. colleague. Why would Norway be so hinged on shipbuilding? We understand that there is a scaled reduction of the tariff over 15 years, but we know very well that favourable tax policies in Norway can offset that.

The reality is that our largest trading partner is the United States, and this is the crux of the matter in my argument. Every single FTA it has signed since 1924 specifically carves out shipbuilding and marine services. It is our largest trading partner. Why would Canada not legally do the same, in order to protect the interests of our shipyards and workers in this country?

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1:10 p.m.

NDP

Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC

Mr. Speaker, I would like to pay tribute to the member for Sackville—Eastern Shore, who has been the foremost advocate for shipbuilding workers across the country and the foremost advocate for having a national shipbuilding strategy here in Canada. He has done real honour in the House by his actions.

The workers, the owners, and every single representative and witness representing the shipbuilding industry have told us time and time again in committee, “This will kill us”. Every single one said it.

Yet Liberals, Conservatives and Bloc members have said they don't care. They have some airy-fairy approach to the George W. Bush style of free trade, and they think it has to work, even though there are no economic impact statements at all to justify it. They just figure that somehow Canada is going to come out ahead. That is just not good enough for the hard-working shipbuilding workers across this country from coast to coast.

Every other country does this. As the member mentioned, the Jones Act protects the United States' shipbuilding industry so that the U.S.A. can continue to build it in a very viable way. This one kills the shipbuilding industry with 1,000 cuts instantly. As soon as it is approved, it shuts off certain sectors from Canadians in terms of being able to build ships, and that continues until the inexorable end of our shipbuilding industry.

The member for Sackville—Eastern Shore asked a very intelligent question. The reality is that every member of the House should be standing up to vote for this NDP amendment.

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1:10 p.m.

NDP

Wayne Marston NDP Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON

Mr. Speaker, I want to thank the member for Burnaby—New Westminster on behalf of U.S. steelworkers and the former Dofasco workers of Hamilton, who produced his steel.

Earlier in the debate on this particular motion, I think we heard the member for Sackville—Eastern Shore talk about the command centres of our ships now looking like they are from Star Trek or some futuristic place. In fact, Canada is a leading nation in the development of shipping. I cannot help but remember that just recently we passed the 50th anniversary of the death of the Avro Arrow. I am very fearful that we are at the beginning of the end for the shipbuilding industry in Canada. For steelmakers across this country, who rely on making steel for auto manufacturing and for vessels, this is crucial.

I want to thank the member and again refer to the fact that the United States, since the Jones Act of 1920, has been doing exactly what this member has asked. Did the member try to put this through a committee similar to this?

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1:10 p.m.

NDP

Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC

Mr. Speaker, the member for Hamilton East—Stoney Creek has been a strong advocate for Canadian workers and Canadian jobs. I wish we had more members like him in the House. We have 37 members like him, but we need to have 137 so that these kinds of sellouts actually stop. We are working on it. The number of members providing strong representation for workers has tripled in the House over the past few years. If it triples again, we will not see any more of these sellouts.

It would be an important step in the Canadian Parliament to stop the Ottawa bubble and actually start thinking about ordinary people across this country, rather than just corporate CEOs and bankers, which is what Liberals and Conservatives seem to love. They love giving money to bankers and corporate CEOs. They do not seem to think very often about the hard-working ordinary Canadians who pay their taxes and actually pay their salaries.

The question asked whether this issue had been raised. It was raised in committee repeatedly by every single representative from the shipbuilding industry, both owners and workers. It was every single one. The member is quite right to point this out. We have Liberals and Conservatives not even bothering to listen. They do not even bother to listen to the impact of their decisions. They did not even want to read the bill. They just wanted to push it right through.

In fact, Liberals moved to cut off witnesses. We had Liberals and Conservatives saying that they did not really want to hear from shipbuilding representatives. They did not really care about that. Somebody said that there were going to be some benefits in this deal, and even though there had been no economic analysis whatsoever, they were just going to pass it through, throw it on the House of Commons and see what happened.

That worked really well for the softwood sellout, did it not? Thousands upon thousands of jobs were lost because members in the House did not do their job. We told them what the impact would be: hundreds of millions of dollars in fines, softwood communities devastated, closures of mills and money going down to the United States. What did they do? They voted it through. We are giving them a last chance to do the right thing.

Canada-EFTA Free Trade Agreement Implementation ActGovernment Orders

1:15 p.m.

NDP

Jim Maloway NDP Elmwood—Transcona, MB

Mr. Speaker, I would like to observe that the United States has shown a lot of common sense in past history by protecting its shipbuilding industry through the Jones Act of 1920. Why would the members opposite have such a lack of common sense and not follow the United States? They seem to want to follow the United States in every other field of endeavour. Why would they not follow them in this one?

Canada-EFTA Free Trade Agreement Implementation ActGovernment Orders

1:15 p.m.

NDP

Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC

Mr. Speaker, that is a very good question from my colleague for Elmwood—Transcona. The answer is that they are stuck in the past. They are dinosaurs on trade policy. The rest of the world is moving to fair trade. We are seeing a fundamental change, because the old George W. Bush style of free trade policy simply did not work.

We now have fair trade in place in Washington. The Barack Obama administration was elected on that basis, yet here, the last relics of the George W. Bush style of free trade are still in place in the House of Commons. Canadians need to know that we have these relics. They are trade illiterates. They are folks who just take whatever is given to them on free trade without checking facts, without checking what has actually happened to middle-class family incomes and without checking the impacts of each and every one of these agreements that Liberals and Conservatives love to sign, but do not seem to want to read.

I think that is why we need to look at best practices. The member for Elmwood—Transcona asks a very valid question. The U.S. has a viable and vibrant shipbuilding sector because, under the Jones Act, they exempt shipbuilding from international trade agreements. That is a best practice that has led to thousands of new shipbuilding jobs in the United States. The NDP is simply saying that we want to adopt that best practice here and carve shipbuilding out of this agreement.

Canada-EFTA Free Trade Agreement Implementation ActGovernment Orders

1:15 p.m.

NDP

Malcolm Allen NDP Welland, ON

Mr. Speaker, it reminds one of the old adage about the barn door and trying to catch the horses after the barn door is closed. To be honest, the dry dock doors are about to shut and the last ship is about to sail away.

I commend my hon. colleague, who has fought vociferously and passionately and courageously to save shipyards across the country. Could I ask him what he thinks will happen to those communities where those shipyard workers are?

Canada-EFTA Free Trade Agreement Implementation ActGovernment Orders

1:15 p.m.

NDP

Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC

Mr. Speaker, we know what will happen. They will lose their jobs, and their families will lose their breadwinners.

This is why we are saying through you, Mr. Speaker, to the country at large that this is the time when shipyard workers need to speak out. Those hundreds of letters have had some impact--

Canada-EFTA Free Trade Agreement Implementation ActGovernment Orders

1:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Deputy Speaker Conservative Andrew Scheer

Order, please.

Resuming debate. The hon. member for Sackville--Eastern Shore.

Canada-EFTA Free Trade Agreement Implementation ActGovernment Orders

1:15 p.m.

NDP

Peter Stoffer NDP Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS

Mr. Speaker, we know where the government's attention is. We heard it today in question period, when it could not even get a simple question correct. With all the people working in government, with all the statistical information that the government could have, in response to a simple question by one of our colleagues from the Bloc Québécois on EI, it had the audacity to deliberately mislead the House of Commons and Canada by telling us that 82% of EI claimants get EI. Where did that figure come from? The truth is that fewer than 40% of the people who claim for EI actually receive it. Where did that figure of 82% come from? It is unbelievable.

Here is another place where the government's attention is. Page 8 of Quorum shows that in 2007 the ten highest-paid bureaucrats in the government got bonuses of 25%, 33%, 28%, 24%, 15%.

What does the government tell the shipyard workers? “We are going to phase out your industry. You might be able to collect EI if you qualify”.

Well, shipyard workers do not want EI. They want to have jobs and look after themselves.

I get a kick out of the Liberals and the Bloc when they say that they want to have a national policy. We already have one. In 2001, the then industry minister, Brian Tobin, struck a committee made up of labour and industry. It came together with the “Breaking Through” document. It presented five major recommendations to assist the industry and put it on sound financial footing. Some of the elements were a combination of what we call structured facility financing and accelerated cost capital allowance, but in order for them to work, they had to be together.

Yes, the government did put in SFF, but not for the five-year term that we and industry and labour had asked for, and not with ACCA. We needed to have them together. It was a straightforward recommendation that would have put this industry on sound footing. It did not happen.

That report is still collecting dust on the Minister of Industry's desk. How frustrating it is that almost eight years after these workers, companies and groups got together to do that report, trusting that something might move, it has not happened.

We have heard from Liberals. The hon. member for Halifax West, when he was the fisheries minister, stood in the shipyards and said, “Don't worry, folks. We're going to build those big new mid-shore Coast Guard vessels right here”.

Four years later and with a Conservative government, we still do not have them, yet what do the Conservatives announce in a budget? Instead of the $22 billion worth of work that we need over 20 years for building the JSS support vessels, the Coast Guard vessels, the icebreakers, the laker fleets, the ferry fleets, et cetera, we got what we call the “canoe budget” of $175 million to build some hovercraft and do some mid-life refits on some vessels.

That $175 million is important. There is no doubt about it. However, the major yards, except for the refits, are not going to be building hovercraft. It just does not happen.

In reality, very much more was required and very little was delivered.

The Conservatives are nice people individually. There is not one of them I would not want as my neighbour. We have to ask ourselves, though, what they, with their Liberal friends and their Bloc friends, would collectively tell the shipbuilding industry, when in committee after committee they heard and heard again that these trade deals may very well be the end of us in the future.

It is not just EFTA alone that will kill this industry. Once we put in this trade deal with EFTA, then Korea is knocking on our door, and Korea has said very clearly that shipbuilding and the auto sector will be major factors in our trade talks.

That is where the deal will be killed. That is when shipbuilding says goodbye in this country.

The government may want to remain true to its word down the road and say that we are going to build the Diefenbaker here in Canada. The irony of it is that in order for a yard to do it, the government may have to subsidize that yard to get it done, as it did for the Irvings in the 1980s. It gave them millions of dollars to upgrade the yard. They built the frigates. Then it gave them $55 million to shut it down. That was the Conservatives and the Liberals.

The reality is that we have an industry that can be viable, that can hire thousands of people.

I will relate an incident that happened yesterday. The EnCana Corporation, with the Deep Panuke project, announced that Irving in Halifax will be building an offshore vessel. It is a $60 million contract. All of a sudden, 200 additional workers will come back in, $20 million will be offset to the economy in payroll and income taxes, and there will be $14 million of direct input into the Halifax-Dartmouth area.

That is one supply vessel, at $60 million. Can members imagine what billions of dollars of work would do, not just in Halifax, but in Marystown, Lévis, Welland, and the Washington yards in Victoria, what it would do for a stimulus package in this country? We do not have to subsidize it; we have to invest.

The men and women in the military deserve new navy fleets. The men and women in the Coast Guard deserve those new vessels. The men and women who ply the Great Lakes deserve new laker fleets, and the men and women who serve our ferries and transportation on the east and west coasts and in the Great Lakes areas deserve to have those new ferries.

We certainly do not want to see another example of the BC Ferries corporation having three vessels built in Germany at a cost of $540 million and not one job created in B.C. because of it. Then what does the BC Ferries corporation ask? They want a waiver of the 25% import duty charges. They want to waive it, because if they do not get it, what will happen is that they may have to raise rates on the ferries. It is blackmail. That is exactly what they are doing to the government. I hope the government says very politely to the BC Ferries corporation, “No, you must pay those duties coming in.”

George MacPherson, a B.C. shipyard worker, said very clearly, if the government had invested that money properly, it could have built those ships for probably less than what it did in Germany, because 40¢ on every dollar would have gone immediately back into the economy through income payroll taxes. That does not include the offset jobs that would have been there.

Of course, the Conservatives are very serious about economic plans and they like to create jobs. We saw a classic example of that just a while ago when 18 of their friends entered the Senate for $6 million. What a great economic stimulus package that was.

I could be wrong on this one but I would not mind testing it: I do not think there is one member of Parliament in the House who was asked by any constituent to request that the Prime Minister put 18 more of his friends in the Senate to get the economy going. That is where it is, the Senate.

That is not what Canadians are asking for. They are asking for jobs and for the ability to look after their own families, to pay their taxes and live in their communities.

We have five major yards left in this country. Since 2001, since the “Breaking Through” report, we have consistently, over and over again, asked the previous government and the current government to pay half as much attention to the shipbuilding industry as it does the aerospace industry.

It was not lost on anyone when the Conservatives stood and bragged about an investment of over $300 million in the aerospace industry. What happened because of it? Some very good news: Bombardier-Canadair with a more than $1 billion contract. That, in my opinion, is a sound investment.

I know this sounds like a socialist-democratic idea that the ghosts of Tommy Douglas, Stanley Knowles and J.S. Woodsworth are coming back to filter through the House of Commons, but imagine the concept of using Canadian taxpayers' dollars to hire Canadian workers to work in Canadian shipyards, work with Canadian companies, and build Canadian ships.

That is such a far-fetched idea. It must be some crazy NDPer saying this. The reality is that this is what Canadians are asking for. They want investments in strategic industries that will build the economy of tomorrow. They want to make sure that their tax dollars go to hire their friends and their neighbours so that they in turn have jobs to look after their families.

For the government to sell out the shipyard workers and the companies through this EFTA deal means that Korea is next, and what else after that? Yet we have reported over and over again that there is nothing wrong, nothing illegal, no trade disputes at all, in carving shipbuilding out of that debate.

We can have the EFTA deal. We do not mind it at all. In fact, we would like the government to promote the EFTA deal, but leave shipbuilding out of it, because that will eventually hurt our industry.

In 2003, when I questioned the then deputy prime minister, John Manley, in this House, we heard him say that the shipbuilding industry, in his view, was a sunset industry, that it was time to get over it and move on. That is what he said in 2003.

I honestly believe there are a lot of Liberals, a lot of Conservatives and the bureaucrats behind it who still believe that and would trade off this industry for something else. That is inexplicable. It is unbelievable that two major parties in the House who have been governing this country since Confederation can have such a dim view of shipbuilding in this country.

The reality is that with sound investment and the proper protection this industry can grow and be a bright light in the future for our economy.

Canada-EFTA Free Trade Agreement Implementation ActGovernment Orders

1:25 p.m.

Conservative

The Deputy Speaker Conservative Andrew Scheer

The hon. member for Sackville—Eastern Shore will have nine minutes left in the time allotted to him the next time the bill is debated in the House.

It being 1:30 p.m., the House will now proceed to the consideration of private members' business as listed on today's order paper.

Standing Orders of the House of CommonsPrivate Members' Business

March 13th, 2009 / 1:30 p.m.

Conservative

Maxime Bernier Conservative Beauce, QC

moved:

That Standing Order 89 be amended by deleting the words “and of second reading of a private Member’s public bill originating in the Senate”; and Standing Order 86.2(2) be amended by deleting the words “a Senate public bill or”.

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to rise today to speak to my private members’ business motion M-277. I am grateful to my colleague, the member for Crowfoot, for having developed this initiative in the last Parliament. Given the urgency of the motion, the member asked me to bring the motion forward and I am happy and privileged to do so.

The motion proposes to change the House of Commons Standing Orders so that Senate private members’ business items are treated in the same way as House of Commons private members’ business items. It is very important that they be treated fairly. As all members of the House of Commons know, at the start of each Parliament a list of members for the consideration of private members’ business is established. A random draw is held to establish the order in which members’ names will be added to the order of precedence, which is the list of members’ bills and motions that will be considered by the House. Once the draw has been held, the order of precedence lists 30 members of the House who have the privilege of seeing their ideas, bills or motions debated in the House.

Of course, cabinet ministers, parliamentary secretaries, the Speaker and the Deputy Speaker are excluded from the list. The principle behind the establishment of the list is that each member should have an opportunity in a Parliament to have a private members’ business item—something that is important to the member, his or her constituents and all Canadians—debated in the House of Commons. This principle was enunciated in 2002 in the 66th report of the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs on private members’ business, a report that was very short and to the point.

Of course, a member can have one of his or her private members’ business items debated only if his or her name has been added to the order of precedence. Other members must wait until their name is transferred from the list to the order of precedence. This ensures a fair process for the consideration of private members’ business in the House. Unfortunately, there is a problem with the Standing Orders and that is why we have a motion before us today.

The problem is that our current rules treat Senate private members’ business differently from House private members’ business. Private members’ business items coming from the Senate to the House of Commons are automatically and immediately added to the order of precedence. I will repeat that, so we all understand: once they are sponsored and introduced by a member of the House of Commons private members’ bills coming from the Senate are automatically and immediately added to the order of precedence, ahead of the members of this House. This means that Senate private members’ business items get preferential treatment in the House of Commons, unlike bills by members of this House. Senate private members’ business items can jump the queue that is established for the management of House private members’ business items. Senators are taking advantage of the loophole in the Standing Orders and are sending an increasing number of private members’ bills to the House.

To be fair, let us look at what happens in the Senate. In the Senate, there is no list for the consideration of private members’ business or an order of precedence. Senate private members’ business items are introduced are added to the order paper and can be debated on any given day. However, in practice, the Senate rules allow the party with a majority in the Senate to control which private members’ items are advanced and which ones die on the order paper.

So, even if the Rules of the Senate provide for equal treatment in theory, in fact, this is not the case. And unlike the House, where a member can bring forward only one of his or her items in a Parliament, Senators can advance an unlimited number of private members’ business items. For example, Senator Grafstein has seven bills on the order paper in the Senate at the present time.

Some may say that we in this House should not worry about a few Senate private members' items. To them, I would point out that senators have already introduced 29 Senate private members' items. That is an average of one bill per day that the Senate has sat during this Parliament.

Since the order of precedence in the House is only replenished when the number of items falls to 15 after the House has dealt with private members' business items—as I said earlier, the order of precedence is made up of 30 private members' bills or motions—Senate private members' bills that are sent to the House and added to the order of precedence can delay the adding of new members of the House to the order of precedence.

That is why this procedure is unfair. Other members of the House have to wait indefinitely for the day their name appears on the order of precedence.

If senators keep introducing one new item per day, these items will be sent to the House, and the next members in line will not be able to bring their items forward until the fall or even later. It is basic math.

That is unfair to the members of this House who are awaiting the next replenishment of the order of precedence so they can bring forward one of their motions or bills. We need to ensure that the Standing Orders treat Senate private members' items the same way that House business items are treated. That is what my motion proposes to do, and I hope that many of the parties and members of the House will support it.

Motion M-277 would change the Standing Orders of the House of Commons so that members who are added to the order of precedence have to choose between bringing forward one of their items or sponsoring a Senate private member's bill. Members who want to sponsor a Senate private member's item would still be able to do so—but only when their name is added to the order of precedence.

This motion would provide for fairness in the way we handle House and Senate bills. Fair treatment will benefit all members of this House. I therefore call on all members of this House to support motion M-277.