House of Commons Hansard #42 of the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was guns.

Topics

Emergency DebatePoints of OrderOral Questions

3 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

No.

Emergency DebatePoints of OrderOral Questions

3 p.m.

Liberal

The Speaker Liberal Peter Milliken

There is no consent so I believe that disposes of the matter for now. The member knows he can make a request pursuant to the Standing Orders for an emergency debate. If and when that happens, we will deal with it here.

Oral QuestionsPoints of OrderOral Questions

3:05 p.m.

Liberal

Wayne Easter Liberal Malpeque, PE

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. The Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Agriculture seriously misinformed the House during question period by alleging that the question raised today was handled yesterday in committee. That is not the case. The question was not asked or answered because it is information that became available overnight.

I know the parliamentary secretary to be an honourable gentleman and, therefore, would expect that maybe he will stand and inform the House in a proper fashion in response to that question. It was not dealt with at committee last night. It is new information.

Oral QuestionsPoints of OrderOral Questions

3:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Speaker Liberal Peter Milliken

While I am sure the hon. member for Malpeque feels that he may not have received the information he asked for or received it in a different form, the fact is that sometimes there are disputes about facts that occur in the House but they are not points of order and I do not believe he has raised a point of order. Those deal with procedural matters. The Speaker has no idea of what the facts are in any case and, if I do, I am not to let on.

The House resumed consideration of the motion.

Opposition Motion—Gun ControlBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

3:05 p.m.

Bloc

Christiane Gagnon Bloc Québec, QC

Mr. Speaker, I want to focus on today's motion, dealing with gun control. The government wants to extend the amnesty on the requirement to register firearms. Since 2006, when it was first elected, this government has tried every trick in the book to water down the requirement to register all firearms in circulation, including rifles and long guns.

This is indeed what the government has in mind and wants to do. It is going through the back door, whether it is with a private member's bill, or with Conservative senators who also present bills in the Senate to change the cost of registering firearms.

I am going to split my time with the hon. member for Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, who will also address this issue.

As we know, the debate on gun registration has been going on since 1995. We were in the House when that debate began, following the tragedy at the École Polytechnique.

This evening, a film on this tragic event will be shown. It will stir emotions, and it may lead a number of colleagues here to change their views on this important issue. The Conservatives are saying that this is a campaign promise. Some of them made that promise to their fellow citizens.

I want to remind them that public studies or inquiries conducted in Quebec show that three quarters of the population is very satisfied with the gun registration policy. There may have been some irritants related to the process, which was a long and costly one. But now that this gun registry is in place and is controlled in Quebec, the public is aware of its impact and of the objectives that we want to achieve. The fewer guns there are circulating freely, the more control and registration activities there are, the better we will be able to determine whether firearms are present when, for example, police officers arrive at the scene of a crime, or of an attempted crime. When an individual is holding hostage members of his family, or people close to him, the police is able to determine whether that individual is armed.

The arguments of the Conservatives are very dubious and open to criticism and debate. I need only recall certain arguments emphasized this morning by some Conservative members from the Quebec City region. The member for Beauport—Limoilou, for example, said that we need to have confidence in people—as though we did not have confidence in them—that these are responsible people who own hunting rifles and other long guns, and that these are certainly not the people who should be targeted. It is not a matter of targeting these people; it is rather a case of being proactive and of establishing certain conditions that can save lives.

Suicides and crimes are committed with rifles. Far too many people can be victims of crimes carried out with these weapons. I knew someone who, a few years ago—even before registration of firearms was considered, before there was a safety code to put them in a safe place, back when they circulated freely—who used his rifle one day, while he was depressed and on medication.

One fine morning, unbeknownst to his children, he left the house with his rifle under his raincoat. He took his own life with a hunting rifle. I ask myself today; if, for example, that weapon had been stored under certain conditions, would he, perhaps, have had time to reflect on his actions? I know that it was quite a tragedy for the family that experienced that suicide.

Today, it seems to me that the debate is over. We thought it was finished; but, no, each year the Conservative party comes back with proposals that seek to reduce the scope of firearms registry and this law. We must question the real motives of the government. Why does it want to proceed by sheltering a certain part of the population that owns weapons, rifles or hunting rifles from the law? They tell us that they do not want to upset them and irritate them further and that we should have confidence in them. I find it hard to accept this kind of bizarre argument. We certainly register automobiles and the boats on our lakes. You need a permit for a boat these days. Why is this a requirement?

Moreover, we know that those who own rifles and hunting weapons do not have to pay for the licence to use their weapons. Registration is free of charge for those people. What, then, are the irritants?

I remember another issue about which the same conclusion could be drawn. When we wanted to institute DNA testing, people in some caucuses did not want to see hair or saliva samples taken because they felt it was a personal invasion. At the same time, though, the objective was good. When someone is accused of murder, DNA testing might be the only way to find the real perpetrator. After several discussions within our own caucus, and other caucuses too maybe, we managed to reach a consensus and agreed to support the bill on DNA testing. I remember well because I wanted this bill to pass at a time when I was the Bloc critic on the status of women.

We might have expected, therefore, that all the members would refuse to extend this gun registry amnesty until 2010. We were asked to extend it in 2006. Then it was 2007 and then 2008 for the amnesty granted to hunters and people who have hunting guns or rifles. Now they want to extend it again until 2010. This means that some people do not have to comply with the law and others can be excluded from it.

We have a lot of support as well from the public, such as police associations and public health directors, including Mr. François Desbiens, public health director at the Agence de la santé et des services sociaux de la Capitale-Nationale. He says that the statistics are telling. A lot fewer people are using guns now to commit suicide or murder.

We also want all the members of the House today to think hard and come to see the film about the tragedy that happened at the École Polytechnique. An association was just created on gun control. We hope this might change the minds of some members of the House and that could make the difference when it comes to getting around this law and going back on our intent to pursue this objective.

Opposition Motion—Gun ControlBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

3:15 p.m.

Oxford Ontario

Conservative

Dave MacKenzie ConservativeParliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Public Safety

Mr. Speaker, I listened to my colleague across the floor and she mentioned a number of people who support the registry.

I have a quote that I will read and wonder if she would like to comment on it. This was stated by a senior police officer in the province of Ontario. The quote is as follows:

--a law registering firearms has neither deterred these crimes nor helped us solve any of them. None of the guns we know to have been used were registered...the money could be more effectively used for security against terrorism as well as a host of other public safety initiatives.

That was a quote from former Toronto police chief Julian Fantino dated January 2003. He is currently the Commissioner of the Ontario Provincial Police. I would suggest that he is a fairly well-known and respected senior police officer in this country. I wonder if she would have any response to the comments made by Mr. Fantino.

Opposition Motion—Gun ControlBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

3:15 p.m.

Bloc

Christiane Gagnon Bloc Québec, QC

Mr. Speaker, I thank the member for his question. That opinion is one among many others. For example, the Association des policières et policiers provinciaux du Québec and other police associations, who can speak for a number of people, tell us that there have, nonetheless, been some telling improvements.

I know that firearms control is not the only way to reduce the number of incidents or criminal acts committed with guns. I think that we must implement other prevention initiatives as well. We must go to the source of the problem and fight poverty, for example.

Today, many people lose their jobs and some are depressed because they do not know how they can get through the present recession.

Moreover, there are some desperate people out there. We must help community groups put resources at the disposal of people who commit serious crimes or attempt suicide. We must also offer support to certain individuals in our society.

However, we will never be able to prevent some deviant elements of our society from committing violent crimes.

In addition, the bill and the gun registry have larger objectives than those the member alluded to. Saying that we must invest the money elsewhere is one of the myths. I do believe that we must invest money elsewhere, but not the money used for gun control. I think that that would be a bad solution and a bad direction.

Opposition Motion—Gun ControlBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

3:20 p.m.

NDP

Linda Duncan NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB

Mr. Speaker, contrary to the comment offered to the House by the parliamentary secretary, it is interesting that a more current remark by a senior police officer, in fact the president of the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police, says that gun control saves lives. He was quoting from a report prepared for the police, which actually revealed that a substantial number of firearms recovered in crimes were once legal.

He calls for retaining the registry, including long guns, and says that, yes, rifles and shotguns are used less frequently in crimes today than 15 years ago. Why? It is because of the measures that were in place that paid off and the rate of firearm murders, particularly of women, has reduced because of that.

I am wondering if the member could remark on the support of the gun registry by the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police.

Opposition Motion—Gun ControlBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

3:20 p.m.

Bloc

Christiane Gagnon Bloc Québec, QC

Mr. Speaker, I thank the member for her question.

I was just saying a moment ago that various associations are satisfied, such as the police association and the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police. The great majority are satisfied. Apparently, three quarters of the population of Quebec are also satisfied with the registration of firearms. They know that there have been some irritants at the start and that implementing the firearms registry was very costly. But, now that it exists, it is inexpensive, and not using it would save only pennies, but that is what the Conservative member who asked me the question earlier wants to do. Saving pennies would not be sufficient to solve the whole problem.

I think it is one of the tools we want to provide for our citizens. Having some control over the circulation of firearms allows police officers to be better equipped when they arrive at a crime scene or when someone is held hostage and they know that the perpetrator owns a firearm. But it must not be assumed that, because no firearm was registered, the individual does not possess any.

There are also solutions which the government could use against firearms smuggling, since nearly 50% of firearms found on a crime scene are handguns. There could be other solutions, but the government has not yet adopted them.

Opposition Motion—Gun ControlBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

3:20 p.m.

Bloc

Ève-Mary Thaï Thi Lac Bloc Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC

Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague from Québec for sharing her time with me.

As my colleague so aptly pointed out a little earlier, we willingly accept the registration of our cars, snowmobiles and all-terrain vehicles for safety reasons. Why should it be different for firearms? The gun control bill was passed in 1995. The Bloc Québécois, having demanded it, therefore voted in favour of it.

To justify their opposition to the firearms registry, the Conservatives prefer to hide behind the crimes that are committed with illegal weapons. The Conservative government maintains that the real criminals will always manage to procure firearms. That may be so, but do we have to make the task easier for them? Abolishing the registry may aggravate the contraband weapons problem, since there will be no more control or monitoring of firearms.

For the third time, nay for the fourth time if we count Bill C-301, the government is attacking the firearms registry. This ideological stubbornness is difficult to follow, since we know that the firearms registry has made it possible to reduce the number of gun-related tragedies.

Since they were elected in 2006, the Conservatives have been constant in their efforts to damage this registry. In June 2006, they set the tone for this issue by tabling the bill for the outright abolition of the registry. Unable to convince the opposition, they took roundabout action by declaring an amnesty. That amnesty had been allowed by the Liberals, but the Conservatives extended it until May 2008, then May 2009. They are attempting to extend it once again for another year.

Furthermore, the firearms marking regulations dating from November 2004, which initially were supposed to come into force in April 2006, were pushed back a first time by the Liberals and a second time by the Conservatives, less than a month before they come into force in December 2009. The amnesty announced in May 2006 had a term of one year. However it was renewed twice, and now the Conservatives are trying to extend it another year. This is unacceptable to the Bloc Québécois. We demand that this program be in place by May 16.

There is a direct connection between the ease with which one can procure a weapon and the homicide rate. Quebec has seen a drop in the homicide rate since 1995, the year the registry began.

The hon. members from the Bloc Québécois are not alone in finding benefits in this registry. The police forces of Quebec and Canada indicate that they consider it a very effective tool. The public health agencies, reporting the situation on the ground, say that the registry is an effective means of achieving a lower homicide and suicide rate. Lastly, that is what the statistics say as well. The number of violent crimes has fallen since the firearms registry came into effect.

This request has also been made by the government of Quebec, which repeated it during its last election campaign, when the Quebec premier wrote to his federal counterpart to ask that the firearms registry be maintained. What is more, the elected officials of Quebec have on two occasions voted unanimously in the National Assembly in favour of maintaining this registry.

This evening, to raise awareness among our fellow members of Parliament, the Bloc Québécois will be screening Polytechnique, which relates the events of the 1989 massacre at the École Polytechnique de Montréal.

To prevent events like the ones that took place at the École Polytechnique de Montréal and Concordia University from happening again, the Government of Quebec is trying to protect the people of Quebec. Recently, it adopted the Anastasia Act, which tightens gun control by regulating firearms possession in some locations and creating a regulatory system for target practice in Quebec.

The Government of Quebec talked about its intent to assume greater responsibility for gun control. We know that criminal law falls under federal jurisdiction. If the Conservatives recognize the Quebec nation, they must recognize our right to have different needs. If they do not want to maintain the gun registry, they should transfer the responsibility to Quebec, and Quebec will look after it.

The best way to pass laws that reflect Quebec's needs is, without doubt, Quebec sovereignty. A sovereign Quebec would have dealt with the gun issue a long time ago.

Until then, the Bloc Québécois is the party that will stand up for the interests of Quebeckers and for motions passed unanimously in the National Assembly, including the one on firearms. The Bloc Québécois firmly believes that taking preventive action and tackling factors that lead to crime are sure ways to prevent human and family tragedies.

I said earlier that we set a record when it comes to the decline in crime and homicide rates in Quebec. We can see that creating the registry has had beneficial effects, unlike what is going on in our neighbour to the south. Ten years ago, they too had a terrible tragedy, the Columbine massacre. They did nothing to tighten access to firearms. The only thing they did to prevent crimes like that was to adopt more enforcement-oriented measures, like what the Conservative government is preparing to put forward. We have seen, however, that there were no significant results from those kinds of measures.

Although media coverage of violent crimes may suggest that they have been on the rise over the years, that does not reflect reality. Since the mid-1990s, crime has been falling in Quebec and Canada. Statistics Canada confirms that the overall crime rate has recently fallen in this country. It was the lowest in 25 years, and in Quebec it was the lowest homicide rate since 1962. That is not an insignificant fact.

We also know that violent crime declined by 22% in Quebec between 1991 and 2004. By way of comparison, the homicide rate in Canada for 2003 was three times lower than in the United States. That is very significant. Instead of modelling our policy on the Americans’, what we have to do is continue to work on prevention, and before long it will be the Americans modelling their policy on ours.

The Conservatives’ obsession with talking about nothing but smuggled guns must not be allowed to conceal the fact that the firearms most commonly used in spousal homicides are legally acquired shotguns and rifles. The statistics show that 85% of homicides are committed with rifles. We know that a large proportion of homicide victims in the case of spousal violence are women. That is not an insignificant fact.

We also know that it is not enough just to register a firearm. In 2003, Montreal police responded to a spousal violence situation. The wife was afraid because her husband, who had been hospitalized, was now coming home, and when the police checked the firearms registry they found that the man owned a real arsenal: 26 handguns, 16 hunting weapons and 45,000 rounds of ammunition. The registry made it possible for the police to prepare themselves before responding.

I will conclude by saying that we register our vehicles and we register our ATVs. Is it not reasonable for us to also register our firearms?

Opposition Motion—Gun ControlBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

3:30 p.m.

South Shore—St. Margaret's Nova Scotia

Conservative

Gerald Keddy ConservativeParliamentary Secretary to the Minister of International Trade

Mr. Speaker, I think the hon. member's comments are meant in the best practice of this House to add to the debate and to try to find a solution to a very difficult problem in this country.

Probably the greatest myth ever perpetuated in this country in the 20th century and certainly carried over into the 21st century is that of the long gun registry somehow changing safety and making people, especially women, more safe in this country. I would argue that during the 1990s and much of the early part of the 2000s, quite frankly, as a society we turned our back on problems regarding the safety of women. The previous government especially tried to make it all about a gun registry. The gun registry never enforced one peace bond. As a matter of fact, it took resources and dollars away from enforcing peace bonds in this country. The gun registry never made one woman any safer.

Registering gun owners makes a lot of sense. A licence and passing a psychological test make sense.

The member when talking about firearms has the right idea, but she is on the wrong road.

Opposition Motion—Gun ControlBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

3:30 p.m.

Bloc

Ève-Mary Thaï Thi Lac Bloc Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC

Mr. Speaker, the member opposite is talking about saving money when I am talking about protecting lives. The firearms registry lets us protect lives. I referred to a case in point. When a police officer went to an individual’s home, he was in a position to know that the individual owned an arsenal of more than forty firearms, and this meant that he was able to deal with the situation.

Right now, the last six murders of police officers were committed with hunting weapons. I am talking about saving lives. And the firearms registry is essential for precisely this reason: to protect people’s lives.

Opposition Motion—Gun ControlBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

Paul Szabo Liberal Mississauga South, ON

Mr. Speaker, the member will have heard already in the debate that the police consult the registry over 9,000 times a day and that the annual cost is about $3 million. This is not in dispute.

However, the police association takes exception to a simple sloganeering of getting tough on crime and focusing on criminals, because we have to prevent crime, not deal with it after the fact. For me, the most important issue is that there is an improper balance between crime prevention and dealing with a problem after we have it.

The police association is calling for increased border security to deal with the illegal importation of guns. It wants to properly monitor retailers and wholesalers to deal with the issue where guns and ammunition are sold. It wants additional front-line police officers.

I wonder if the member would agree that the government seems to have more of a political focus on the need to somehow disband a gun registry, which our police authorities say helps them to keep the public safe. The government, for political reasons, rather than focusing on a balance between prevention and--

Opposition Motion—Gun ControlBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Acting Speaker Conservative Barry Devolin

The hon. member for Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot.

Opposition Motion—Gun ControlBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

3:35 p.m.

Bloc

Ève-Mary Thaï Thi Lac Bloc Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC

Mr. Speaker, in fact, when it comes to prevention, Quebec is one of the leaders. What Canada should be doing is modelling its policy on Quebec’s. We know that Quebec has the lowest crime rate. Quebec has long understood that prevention is the best way of tackling crime. I am a criminologist by training myself, and so I know how important prevention and dealing with problems at their source are.

In my opinion, the gun registry is the best tool the police can have to work with, because in addition to protecting the public, it protects the police from some of the attacks they might be facing.

Opposition Motion—Gun ControlBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

April 21st, 2009 / 3:35 p.m.

Conservative

Candice Bergen Conservative Portage—Lisgar, MB

Mr. Speaker, I will be sharing my time today with the member for Yorkton—Melville.

I stand today to address the House on the motion brought forward by the hon. member for Marc-Aurèle-Fortin. I am aware that gun crime prevention is an issue of great importance to the hon. member, as it is to all of us in this House. We should never forget that so many tragedies have been a result of gun crimes. We also should never take for granted or take lightly our responsibility to approach this problem with vigour, sophistication and intelligence.

In order to do that, we need to look beyond the tempting initial assumption that all problems can be solved with more of the same: another registry, another bureaucracy, another bundle of red tape. It does not work.

I cannot agree with this motion or support this motion, nor would my constituents. We need laws that attack the problem, not law-abiding citizens. The government has set out a balanced approach to preventing violent crime in Canada and that approach does not include criminalizing or otherwise burdening legitimate gun owners.

Canadians put their trust in this government in large part because of our commitment to get tough on crime and to make our streets and communities safer. The choice now is clear. We can have more concrete action against crime or we can settle for what the hon. member from the opposition wants, which is a false sense of safety that comes from an expensive long gun registry.

Our way is better. We have made significant investments in crime prevention over the past three years and we have put more tools and better tools into the hands of law enforcement officials. We are cracking down on gang and drug crimes and we are changing the way criminals are dealt with in our judicial system.

Tackling the illegal use of firearms is a pillar of our government's public safety agenda. We have introduced longer mandatory prison sentences for gun crimes and tough new rules on bail for serious weapon related crimes. Our government has put more police on the streets to fight gun crime, among other priorities.

We are also investing $7 million annually to strengthen front-end screening of first-time firearm licence applicants with a view to keeping firearms out of the hands of people who should not have them. We recently introduced legislation that would create a new criminal offence to target drive-by and other intentional shootings that involve reckless disregard for the life or safety of others.

In addition to taking these long overdue actions, our government has proposed fundamental changes to gun registration laws in Canada. As hon. members know, it is our intention to eliminate the wasteful and ineffective long gun registry that places an undue burden on farmers and on duck, deer, moose and other legitimate hunters. The long gun registry puts law-abiding Canadians at risk while doing nothing to prevent gun crimes.

These honest Canadians were not part of and never will be part of the violent crime problem in Canada. Our intention is to shift resources from this program to the front lines of policing, border security and the fight against organized crime.

Eliminating the long gun registry is not about less gun crime prevention but about better, more effective gun crime prevention. We believe that firearm legislation should target criminals, not the millions of law-abiding Canadians who use rifles and shotguns to protect their farm livestock, hunt wild game or otherwise earn a living. These citizens should not be presumed irresponsible or dangerous simply because one article of their property happens to be a long gun.

Most gun crimes are not committed with long guns. Criminals do not and never will register their guns. We do a disservice to Canadians to operate on the assumption that these criminals will ever register their guns. Canadians deserve better than that.

Canadians deserve real action. We need mandatory minimum sentences for those who commit violent crimes and we need more police spending more time enforcing the law instead of pushing the paper of previous governments.

Our government has also introduced a number of measures to make it easier for gun owners to comply with the existing legislative requirements, as firearms owners who comply with the firearm program are subject to continuous eligibility screening.

With the motion currently before the House, the hon. member is attempting to eliminate one of these measures, the firearm amnesty. In 2006, the former minister of public safety announced that licence renewal fees would be waived. In other words, individuals would not need to pay a fee or renew or upgrade existing licences to replace expired licences.

Those individuals who had already paid to renew their firearms licence were reimbursed. New licence applicants are still required to pay a licence fee. The objective was to ensure that we had a system that encouraged people to self-identify to ensure the list of licensed, law-abiding firearm owners more truly reflected their numbers in our population. Without this enhanced compliance, the licensing system is meaningless.

In May of last year, the government introduced yet another measure to support compliance through a regulatory amendment that enables individuals with expired possession-only licences to apply for a new licence without taking the Canadian firearm safety course. Most of the affected individuals are over 50 years of age and they often reside in rural or remote areas where access to training is limited. Collectively, these three measures comprise a comprehensive regulatory package intended to increase compliance levels, and they appear to be working. In just three years, from 2006-08, the rate of renewal of possession-only licences increased by 15%.

As I noted at the outset, the government has taken a balanced approach to gun crime prevention. We are absolutely committed to protecting the safety and security of Canadians while ensuring that honest, law-abiding citizens are not subjected to unnecessary registration procedures for legally acquired, non-restricted firearms.

Unfortunately, this motion is neither balanced nor prudent. The measures proposed by the hon. member would unnecessarily criminalize thousands of farmers, hunters, rural residents and other law-abiding citizens who are responsible gun owners. It would continue to drain resources that could be better spent on tackling the real problem: gun crime. This motion is not in the best interest of Canadians. It does not deserve the support of the House.

Opposition Motion—Gun ControlBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Mark Holland Liberal Ajax—Pickering, ON

Mr. Speaker, while I appreciate the member's comments, there is a number of areas with which I have grave concerns. The first is the distinction that this would somehow criminalize individuals. When we ask everyone to licence their car or their pet, we do not say that we are making criminals of them because we are asking them to do that.

She asserted that somehow long guns were not part of the problem. Maybe she can reflect on some of these statistics and tell me how she came to that conclusion.

Of the 15 police officers who were killed in the last decade, 13 of them were killed with long guns, not with handguns. Only two were killed by handguns. With respect to spousal homicides involving firearms, they are more than twice as likely to occur with a long gun than with a handgun. When I was on the Durham Region Police Services Board, it was made very clear to me that these were not individuals who had committed previous crimes. This is one of the things I am not sure the members appreciate. These are passion crimes. These are individuals who have these guns in their homes. The police who must respond to domestic violence cases need to know that those weapons are there.

Why would we remove something that is used over 9,000 times a day, that the police and chiefs of police say that we need and something that is a vital tool in stopping this type of thing?

Opposition Motion—Gun ControlBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Candice Bergen Conservative Portage—Lisgar, MB

Mr. Speaker, the fact is that the registry, as it exists, does criminalize legitimate gun owners who do not register their weapons. It is a farce. We have a licensing process and we need to continue with that.

The fact is that criminals are not registering their guns. We have criminals who are killing and hurting people. These are people who are not registering their guns. Why does he want to penalize law-abiding citizens? It is not working. It has not worked in the past and it never will work. He needs to support ending the long gun registry.

Opposition Motion—Gun ControlBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

3:45 p.m.

Bloc

Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC

Mr. Speaker, I much appreciate the way the member tackled the problem from the start. I understand that we are pursuing similar objectives, and I even think she used almost the same terms I did in my speech. We all agree that firearms are dangerous and must be left only in the hands of responsible people.

Those responsible people, who need an acquisition licence to buy a firearm, must know that they cannot give it to another person, since the firearm is registered in their name. If it were ever used by another person to commit a crime, the police would trace it back to the owner.

There is another aspect, and I have a hard time understanding it. I would like my colleague to explain. I do not understand why she talks about the registration of a firearm being a burden. My goodness, many different things must be registered. In my municipality, I had to register my cat. People will have a hard time convincing me that my cat is more dangerous than a rifle. I do not feel like a criminal simply because I have to register something. If I buy a dangerous object that can kill, I am being asked to be very careful with it and to register it in my name.

Opposition Motion—Gun ControlBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Candice Bergen Conservative Portage—Lisgar, MB

Mr. Speaker, I agree. We have the same goals in mind and that is to reduce crime, to make our streets safer and to ensure that men, women and children are protected.

A lot of the issues the hon. member raised are issues relating to licensing, which is something we do support. The problem is when we have law-abiding citizens who are made to look and feel like criminals because they have a gun. Maybe they are gun collectors. Registering one cat may not be an onerous issue for my hon. colleague but if we have gun collectors who are law-abiding citizens and they are considered criminals if they do not register all the long guns they are collecting, it is not working. It is wrong and the gun registry did not work. That is the basis.

Opposition Motion—Gun ControlBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Paul Szabo Liberal Mississauga South, ON

So get tough on those criminals because they did not register.

Opposition Motion—Gun ControlBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Candice Bergen Conservative Portage—Lisgar, MB

Exactly, get tough on criminals. Support it.

Opposition Motion—Gun ControlBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Acting Speaker Conservative Barry Devolin

I appreciate the enthusiasm that members bring to this debate but I would ask all members to show each other the respect they deserve.

Resuming debate, the hon. member for Yorkton--Melville.

Opposition Motion—Gun ControlBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Garry Breitkreuz Conservative Yorkton—Melville, SK

Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the opportunity to participate in this debate. I have no doubt, as was just mentioned, that the members of the Bloc care deeply about the safety of Canadians and for that reason I assume that the motion before us was tabled with the best of intentions. It suggests that by doing away with the firearms amnesty and by maintaining the registration of all types of firearms, Canadians would be safer.

I do not believe this is the case. Before I address this question in detail, let me put this into some context. As an aside, I have heard many arguments today that really are not valid at all. Some of the statistics I have heard quoted are totally twisted and are very misleading. I wish I had time to address them all. Unfortunately, at this point I do not, but maybe during questions and comments I will try to deal with some of those.

I want to deal first of all with the larger context here. When the gun registry was first introduced in 1995, the previous government promised it would cost approximately $2 million to taxpayers to implement over five years. In her 2002 audit, however, the Auditor General of Canada reported that the program's costs had skyrocketed to more than $600 million and moreover, due to a lack of solid financial information, that is, the government was hiding costs, she believed this figure did not fairly represent the true costs of the program.

Then, in a follow-up audit in 2006, the Auditor General reported the cost of the new information system for the registry had nearly tripled from the initial estimate. What is more, the cost of the entire firearms program had mushroomed to nearly $1 billion. Reflect on that: $2 million, $1 billion. That is 500 times over budget. I do not think there has been a government program in history that has gone 500 times over budget. It is unbelievable. I have talked to previous Liberal cabinet ministers and MPs who are upset with what happened and if they had known, would not have originally supported this. Yet, we are here today trying to defend something that is indefensible.

Small wonder that many Canadians are calling the gun registry a boondoggle, a terrible waste of government resources. But apart from the cost to taxpayers and the financial burden on law-abiding citizens, there is also no evidence that the gun registry has kept Canadians safe. I have heard the arguments that it is no different than registering a cat. We do not spend $300 registering a cat and many times more than that and neither is it a criminal offence if we do not register that cat.

This is not only my personal belief. This is not only the belief of a vast number of my constituents in Yorkton—Melville, it is also the belief of the Auditor General of Canada who in her 2006 audit stated that, “The Centre does not show how these activities help minimize risks to public safety with evidence-based outcomes such as reduced deaths, injuries, and threats from firearms”.

This is a statement by probably the most credible person in Canada. She has studied this issue in more depth than anyone sitting here, probably anyone else in Canada. She has access to all the information behind the scenes. We had better listen to what she has to say. She tells us the gun registry shows no benefit to Canadians. Let this Parliament wake up to somebody that we can trust when they are speaking.

It is also the belief of veteran police officers such as Julian Fantino, Commissioner of the Ontario Provincial Police, who has said in the past, “The firearms registry is long on philosophy and short on practical results considering the money could be more effectively used for security against terrorism as well as a host of other public safety initiatives”. He has summed up the essence of what we should be talking about. Is it cost effective? He, of course, clearly indicates it is not.

When this government came to office, we pledged that our approach to crime would generate the kind of practical results demanded by our law enforcement community rather than wasting taxpayer dollars on initiatives such as the long gun registry which does nothing to reduce gun crime.

This morning I chaired the Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security. The committee is doing a review of the national sex offender registry. I find that study very interesting and I wish all Canadians could have been in on what we were hearing this morning. Officials before the committee told us that the RCMP spends less than a million dollars per year running its sex offender registry.

Why have we spent $2 billion and counting tracking law-abiding citizens? Why do we not focus our sights on the criminal element and start focusing on their crimes? That should be what we are interested in: child molesters, drug dealers, organized crime.

We as Conservatives promised to make our streets safer by tackling the deadly combination of youth, gangs and guns. We proposed tougher sentences for violent and repeat offenders, especially those involved in weapons related crime. We promised to work with the provinces and territories to fight the root causes of crime through community-based prevention.

We made these promises and we kept them. Over the last three years the Government of Canada has passed legislation to tackle violent crime. We introduced mandatory prison sentences for gun crimes, as well as reverse onus bail provisions for serious offences, a lot of changes that have been long overdue.

I am citing these things for those watching to show that we have balance in our approach to fighting crime. We have provided more money to the provinces and territories so that they can hire additional police officers. The government has also committed to helping the RCMP recruit and train more personnel.

More recently, the government introduced legislation that among other things will create a new broad-based offence to target drive-by and other intentional shootings that involve the reckless disregard for the life or safety of others. Those convicted of such acts would be subject to a mandatory minimum sentence of four years in prison with a maximum period of imprisonment of fourteen years.

That is what we should be doing. We should be going after the criminals, not hoops, hurdles and all kinds of paperwork for law-abiding citizens because laying a piece of paper beside that gun does not affect one whit what happens with that firearm.

If these acts are committed by or for a criminal organization or with a restricted or prohibited firearm such as a handgun or automatic weapon, the minimum sentence would increase to five years. That makes sense. Punish the criminal.

The government has shown that through these measures it is serious about getting tough on gun crime. We also need to ensure that we have a system of gun control that is effective and efficient.

I support a licensing system. Keeping firearms out of the hands of people who should not have them makes sense. The gun registry does not do that. The bottom line is it does not do that.

We need to be combatting the criminal use of firearms and getting tough with crime. We also believe that gun control should target criminals, not law-abiding citizens. I have said that many times. It should save lives, not waste money. It should be cost effective. It should promote safety on our streets, not frustrate duck hunters and farmers. That is why the extension of the current compliance measures beyond May 16 of this year is so important.

I urge all hon. members to vote against the current motion which seeks to refuse the extension of the amnesty after May 16.

I have 33 pages of quotations from police officers on my website. I would like to refer people to them. I will give a quick one here. It states:

Your statement that it is used 5,000 times a day by police is misleading. A check of the registry is done automatically every time an officer is dispatched to an address, wanted or not. From its inception, I was advised not to depend on it to make decisions. It is outdated, inaccurate and completely unreliable. To make a decision at a call based on registry information would be foolish at best and deadly at worst.

There are thousands of police officers across this country who will tell members exactly the same thing. I ask members to consult them. They do not find this registry helpful at all.