Debates of April 21st, 2009

Opposition Motion—Gun Control

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the previous speaker said that some people have inflated the numbers. I believe he is one of them. I do not know where he found that registering a long gun costs $300. Right now, there is no fee to register a long gun. Registering my cat cost me $10. But whatever the cost, in civilized societies, dangerous objects are registered. Cars are a good example of that.

Then the member said that the registry cost went from $2 million to $1 billion. The numbers are huge, I agree, but the cost of the registry did not go from $2 million to $1 billion. It was supposed to cost $83 million and produce $81 million in revenues. There is the $2 million. The cost of the registry has not been multiplied by 500.

We already have a registration system. Is the member opposed to the fact that police can know whether or not there are registered guns in a house where they are called because of domestic violence?

To operate, the system has to be computerized, which means centralized. It is the computerization that was expensive. But I agree that it could have been done at a much lower cost.

[Garry Breitkreuz, Conservative, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

Mr. Speaker, I wish I had 10 minutes just to answer that one question.

The hon. member should do the math. There are seven million guns in the gun registry. There are probably around 20 million guns in this country, so we have about one-third registered for $2 billion. If he takes the seven and divide it into 2,000, he will find out how much per gun it has cost. He should do the math.

In regard to police officers consulting the registry before they go to a home, I have a police officer in my home province who instructs his police officers not to consult the registry. He says he has to re-program every cadet that he trains when it comes to CFR checks and reliability in regard to a police officer. In fact, it does not change their procedures at all. It would be insane for a police officer to rely on the information in the registry before he went to a home to, let us say investigate a domestic dispute. For example, criminals do not register their firearms and even if they did, the police officer does not know if there is one there so it does not change his procedure in any way.

This police officer goes on to say that the gun registry places the lives of police officers at risk. Hon. members should note that statement. The gun registry offers a false sense of security.

[Paul Szabo, Liberal, Mississauga South, ON]

Mr. Speaker, the member is promoting changes to the law which, according to the police association, would relax controls on handguns and semi-automatic weapons, allowing licensed firearm owners to obtain as many handguns and restricted weapons as they want without an approval process. It also removes the requirement to have authorizations to transport restricted weapons and handguns. This would increase the transportation of semi-automatic rifles and handguns, and therefore increase the risk of loss and theft of vehicles as well as increase the access to firearms in less secure environments, thereby reducing public and police officer safety.

If the member wants to get tough on crime, why is he proposing changes to the law that will in fact increase crime?

[Garry Breitkreuz, Conservative, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

Mr. Speaker, that is another debate for another day. I would gladly answer those because every one of those accusations is false, sir. Everyone of them is false. Those are the talking points of the Coalition for Gun Control. Its information is totally inaccurate. We will have that debate another day.

[Jim Maloway, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

Mr. Speaker, there was a lot of sound and fury in the member's speech. I note that the government has made it voluntary to register long-guns because of the amnesty which will extend beyond May 16, 2009. If the government believes so strongly that the long-gun registry should be removed, then why does it not bring in its own government bill to eliminate the gun registry?

[Garry Breitkreuz, Conservative, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

Mr. Speaker, the government has introduced a bill in the Senate.

[Johanne Deschamps, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I will be sharing my time with my colleague from Brome—Missisquoi.

The Conservative government is determined to weaken the gun control legislation. After declaring an amnesty for owners of unregistered long guns three years ago and twice renewing it, the government is planning to change the gun registry with Bill C-301, An Act to amend the Criminal Code and the Firearms Act (registration of firearms), sponsored by the member for Yorkton—Melville, and Bill S-5, An Act to amend the Criminal Code and another Act, which was introduced in the Senate.

The Conservative government, which is trying to please its militant base, wants to remove non-restricted firearms, meaning rifles and shotguns, from the current gun registry. In fact, the Conservative government wants to do away with the requirement to possess and present a registration certificate for a non-restricted firearm.

The Bloc Québécois has made a firm commitment to improve gun control and maintain the registration of all types of firearms in its entirety. Gun control is one of the most effective ways to prevent crime. That is why the Bloc Québécois is debating the following motion today:

That, in the opinion of the House, the government should not extend the amnesty on gun control requirements set to expire on May 16, 2009, and should maintain the registration of all types of firearms in its entirety.

Even though the rate of homicides committed with rifles and shotguns continues to decline, the fact remains that of the 188 firearms that were used to commit a homicide in 2007, 32 were rifles or shotguns, which is still far too many.

Hunting is a popular sport in my riding. I myself have taken a firearm safety course. I know that some hunters probably do not appreciate having to register their guns. But registering a gun takes only a few minutes and does not cost the hunter a cent. It is a simple procedure that can help save lives.

The Bloc Québécois is in Ottawa to defend the interests of Quebeckers. Public safety is not negotiable. Even if Canadian gun control legislation is for the most part under federal jurisdiction, the Government of Quebec has come up with a few tools to improve public safety. It has passed the Anastasia Act designed to protect the people of Quebec by tightening gun control, regulating gun ownership in certain places and creating a system to control the practice of target shooting with prohibited or restricted firearms.

If the Conservative government wants to deregulate gun control, let it transfer those powers to Quebec so that it can administer the firearm registry itself. Quebec MNA's all agree on the necessity of gun control legislation. On March 31, the National Assembly voted unanimously in favour of this motion by the member for Mercier:

THAT the National Assembly of Québec demand the maintaining of the firearms registry, including hunting weapons, and denounce Private Bill C-301 introduced by the Federal Member for Yorkton-Melville... which dilutes the application and scope thereof.

There is no lack of support in Quebec for the gun registry. Police forces report that it is an appropriate and effective tool. Front-line organizations involved in violence and suicide prevention as well as public health agencies report marked decreases in homicides, suicides and accidents involving firearms. They are all opposed to Bill C-301 and call for the registry to be kept as it is.

The Barreau du Québec has expressed the opinion that “the Firearms Act should be kept as it is at present, and that abolition of the gun registry constitutes a threat to public safety.”

Yves Francoeur, president of the Montreal Police Brotherhood, maintains that the gun registry must not be weakened in any way. Even with its limitations, the registry is still a useful tool for Canadian police forces, and it is consulted by them an average of 6,000 times a day.

According to him, since the registry was created in 1998, about 20,000 licences have been revoked or denied, and this has undoubtedly averted a number of tragedies, particularly in spousal violence situations. To all appearances, a large proportion of the Quebec public believes that we need to maintain the gun registry as it is, and end the amnesty granted by the Conservative Party in May 2006.

In particular, we must not lose sight of a sad but true problem in society: suicide. Every year, there are people who use guns to end their lives, and often the weapon used is a hunting rifle. According to Statistics Canada, out of all suicides committed between 1979 and the end of the 1980s, about a third were suicide by firearm. Starting in the 1990s, the proportion began to fall. In 2002, about one out of six suicides was committed with a firearm. The decline in firearms suicides has contributed to the drop in the overall suicide rate. Avoiding easy access to firearms is the best way to prevent suicide. Most suicides would undoubtedly not have happened if the firearms and ammunition had been stored securely.

Firearms control is also a women’s issue. Women account for a small percentage of the two million gun owners in Canada. On the other hand, they account for a large proportion of victims of firearms violence. Over the last decade, the rate of spousal homicides committed with a firearm has fallen by nearly 50%. Is that not excellent evidence that the firearms registry is effective?

In spite of that fact, there is still far too much violence committed against women and children. It is up to the government to invest in preventing spousal homicide. The firearms registry contains tools for that job. The Association féminine d'éducation et d'action sociale, the Fédération des femmes du Québec and the National Council of Women of Canada, which are all women’s rights advocacy organizations, strongly support the firearms registry.

Some women’s organizations are critical of extending the 10-year licence validity period for all firearms owners, which would reduce the number of opportunities to review the information on the licence and ensure that it is up to date.

When it comes to justice and public safety, the Bloc Québécois firmly believes that the most effective approach is still and will always be prevention. This means that we have to tackle the root causes of crime and the conditions that lead to tragedies in the home. We have to tackle the causes that lead to crime: frustration, violence and despair. We have to find tools to combat poverty and inequality in our society.

The Bloc Québécois in fact believes that the federal government must do more to control firearms, including stricter enforcement of its regulations on the storage, display, transportation and handling of firearms by individuals, which provide that firearms must be stored securely so they do not fall into the hands of criminals.

For all of the reasons I gave in my speech, I call on all my colleagues to vote against Bill C-301, and in particular I call on Liberal Party members, the ones who initiated the firearms registry, and on Liberal senators, to vote against Bill S-5.

[Larry Miller, Conservative, Bruce—Grey—Owen Sound, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank my colleague across the way for her interest in this. I would also like to recognize the work and understanding of the members for Portage—Lisgar and Yorkton—Melville on this very subject.

I recently read an article in The Globe and Mail about the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police ethics adviser, who resigned. Apparently he was upset about them accepting large sums of money from certain lobby groups. He felt that there was a definite conflict of interest in the positions they have on certain issues and for those who fund their organizations.

The Globe and Mail article of April 8 went on to say that one of their donors was Bell Mobility-CGI-Group Techna, with a donation of $115,000, which went toward the purchase of 1,000 tickets, at $215 each, to a Céline Dion concert. I would like the member to comment on that.

Since they also supply some of the stuff for the gun registry, I wonder if the member thinks this is a conflict of interest. I would like to hear her comments on it.

[Johanne Deschamps, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank my colleague for referring to the article he has quoted in this House. I find it difficult to answer as I have not seen the article but I would nevertheless like to stick to the crux of the matter at hand and that is keeping the gun registry.

If my colleague listened carefully to my speech, he will have understood that I am in favour of keeping the gun registry in order to combat violence and eliminate domestic tragedies of which, unfortunately, many victims are women.

I imagine that there will always be corruption in this world. It is an element of human nature. I do not believe that there is any law that could eliminate this corruption. However, we must determine what this registry, in its current form, has produced in recent years, namely, a decrease in homicides, the suicide rate and family violence.

We note that support for the registry has come from associations, women's groups in Quebec, police officers. A unanimous motion by the National Assembly of Quebec even states the need and the—

[The Acting Speaker, Conservative, Barry Devolin]

The member for Ajax—Pickering has the floor for questions and comments.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to return to the matter at hand with a question about the safety of the police. We often talk about this issue in the context of how much the police support this as a tool because it increases public safety. It helps us deal with issues like violence against women, and it makes sure the police know the situation they are going into. We well know that most crimes are not premeditated. Most crimes are not committed by individuals who have previously committed a crime.

I would like the member to comment specifically about how this protects police officers. We know that, for example, 13 of the 15 police officers killed in the line of duty over the last decade were killed by long guns. We also know that, in Mayerthorpe, it was a registered long gun that was used to convict some of the individuals who were involved in that. In fact, it was a registered weapon that led to a conviction—

[The Acting Speaker, Conservative, Barry Devolin]

The member for Laurentides—Labelle has the floor.

[Johanne Deschamps, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Mr. Speaker, if I may, I would like to provide my colleague with an example of what the gun registry can do for police officers.

In the winter of 2003, police officers with the Montreal police force intervened in a case of domestic violence. The wife was afraid that her husband would return after a short hospital stay. When they checked the registry, the police discovered that the man had a veritable arsenal: 26 handguns, 16 long guns and 45,000 bullets.

The guns were immediately seized and had the search not been successful, the police could have pressured the man to locate the guns. Without the registry, it would have been impossible to know that the man had an arsenal of weapons.

[The Acting Speaker, Conservative, Barry Devolin]

It is my duty pursuant to Standing Order 38 to inform the House that the questions to be raised tonight at the time of adjournment are as follows: the hon. member for Labrador, Aboriginal Affairs; the hon. member for Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, Culture; the hon. member for Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, Domtar plant in Lebel-sur-Quévillon.

[Christian Ouellet, Bloc, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased to address the motion presented by the Bloc Québécois today, asking the government to maintain the registration of all types of firearms in its entirety. It is truly a motion that reflects the wish of a majority of Quebeckers.

I want to begin by referring to a specific case. This example will be compelling enough to make those who are opposed to gun registration think twice about this issue. It will also show, to some extent, my support for this idea. A few years ago, in the Sainte-Thérèse area, the police was called because someone had barricaded himself in a house. Unlike in the example given earlier, that person was not a criminal. He had no criminal record. Therefore, the police had no reason to suspect that this individual could be dangerous. What did the female officer do? She had no warning, because the gun was not registered. She went to the door. The man was standing on the other side of that door with a hunting rifle. He fired a shot and the police officer died on the spot.

One may argue that this is just an exception. It is indeed, but it is one too many. If that gun had been registered, and if the police had known about it, the officers would have been aware of the danger. So, this case alone shows the need for the gun registry. Losing one officer may not seem like much in relation to the whole population, but it is one too many.

Of course, some chiefs of police, in Ontario or elsewhere, are saying that the registration process is not working. There are also Conservative supporters among the police. There are Conservative supporters in all areas. But we are talking about police associations, about the majority of officers who are saying that this registry is absolutely necessary. Just think that, on average, they consult it 6,067 times a day. They do not consult it just for fun, or to kill time: they do it to get information. Therefore, it must be relevant, otherwise they would not bother.

Earlier, it was mentioned that registering a gun was a difficult process. We do not understand. My colleague rightly pointed out that we register automobiles, among other things, but I would go even further. As members know, we must register a deer after killing it. Indeed, a hunter must register a deer after he has killed it. He must travel some distance, and he must pay a fee. By contrast, registering a firearm is currently free, and hopefully it will remain so. Mr. Speaker, if you go fishing, you have to register the fish that you catch. Is that too much work? Yet, everyone does it. To claim that it is too much work to register a firearm is nothing more than an ideological view. If one kills a wolf, even by accident, by hitting it while driving—it happened to me—one has to register it. Therefore, what is the big deal with registering a gun?

Is it too complicated? What about visas and residence permits to travel abroad? People have to spend days to get them. They have to go to one place to get a signature, to another to get a photo, and so on. Yet, they do it. Why would it not be the same with firearms? Why is it so complicated?

Finally, the Conservatives have never said what they really think down deep. They have certain prejudices because some of their voters still think they live in the wild west. They do not want to say they have guns at home. The member said we are criminalizing people who do not register their guns. We also criminalize people who do not register their cars. We criminalize anyone who does not register. Once people register their guns, they are in full compliance with the law.

The cost argument is the most beautiful of all because it comes back so often. This cost so and so many million dollars. However, the fact it was very expensive does not mean we should destroy it now. We should not get rid of it because the Liberals were incredibly irresponsible about the cost. It has been paid for, it is not a debt.

If we built a bridge and it cost 3 times or even 500 times as much as it was supposed to, would we destroy the bridge because it cost too much? Let us be sensible. We would just say it was badly handled, but that is all water under the bridge now. We would not say we should destroy the bridge and go back to rowing across the river because that does not cost anything. This is what someone just said: we should do what we used to do because it did not cost anything.

The entire federal firearms control program costs $73.7 million a year, and of this, the gun registry costs only $14.6 million. How much is that per Canadian if registration remains free, as is currently the case? Not even 50¢ a year. And they say it is too expensive? It is nothing. They do not know how to count. There is a problem here somewhere.

I want to look now at the myths surrounding the gun registry. Some people have a talent for mixing everything up. They have a talent for mixing the gun registry up with the licence to make it seem that the registry is hyper expensive and useless. Nothing could be further from the truth because the registry and the licence are two different things. Getting a licence is much more complicated. The registry costs very little and does not take long. It is hardly necessary to eliminate it. We get back to the fact, as was mentioned earlier, that family tragedies always happen as a result of the presence of hunting guns and rifles in houses.

Some will say that it is because there are very few handguns, and indeed, very few handguns in houses. When I was younger and had young children, it suddenly occurred to me that I had inherited a rifle from my father and there it was, in plain sight. At that time, there was no gun registry or anything of the sort. I thought having a rifle in plain view in one's house set a bad example, even though it was a beautiful hunting rifle from 1898. I gave it to a friend and never saw that rifle again. I thought that merely having an uncontrolled weapon in the house set a very bad example. Now, certainly, putting weapons away in a cupboard, sealing or locking it, and so forth, that is definitely complicated. Registering the weapon is not the complicated part.

We are in favour of the registry and maintaining it in full. With this motion, we are supporting the notion that all Quebeckers want it. With its legislation known as Anastasia's law, the Quebec National Assembly is also calling on the federal government to maintain it. Police forces and the general public want the same. It would be hard to eliminate something that has cost a fortune simply because there are a few people in another region who say that it serves no purpose. I will come back to this point. It is precisely because it has cost so much that we should consider it important to keep. We have it and people want it.

[Candice Bergen, Conservative, Portage—Lisgar, MB]

Mr. Speaker, there is one thing members on this side of the House find very frustrating. We are making an attempt to protect Canadians from criminals. We have put forward legislation and different amendments, but it seems that no matter what we try to do, opposition members try to block it. All of a sudden, now we find there is a great passion for gun registration. It is frustrating.

This morning I met with Manitoba police officers who work in Winnipeg. They are on the front lines. They deal with criminals every day in downtown Winnipeg. They do not support the gun registry. They say it is a false sense of security. There are a number of police officers who do not support it. If we want to get tough on criminals and end crime, which is what we want to do, then let us look at a solution that works.

I want to ask the hon. member about that.

[Christian Ouellet, Bloc, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Mr. Speaker, we consider prevention to be more important than punishing criminals. Before they become criminals, they have to be stopped and encouraged to do something else. We have to see the success that can be achieved. On the other side, they think it is just a matter of punishing criminals who are at that stage. If we engage in prevention so that they do not reach that stage, we will not need to put them in prison because they will not be criminals.

There was talk earlier about the cost of registering firearms. I might also ask them how much the sweep of the Hells Angels cost. It cost $1 million. And how much will the trials cost? Between $6 million and $15 million. So, do not tell me that they reject the registration of firearms in order to save money.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I want to come back to the issue of cost. It is being used as a smokescreen. We know the RCMP has said that it costs around $3 million a year to maintain the registry. We know when the Prime Minister was in New Brunswick he said not to worry, that no one was going to lose his or her job. Clearly, the government is not reducing any of the employment that is there.

Perhaps we could help the Conservatives find $3 million, if they are so concerned about the $3 million. Perhaps the regional minister for Quebec could travel a little less, or perhaps the Conservatives could stop the contracts, which broke the rules, to hire speech writers for the finance minister.

I am wondering if the member has any ideas, since the Conservatives are concerned about the cost of $3 million. Instead of cutting a program that police say is essential, perhaps we could help them find some waste that they could reallocate to cover that cost.

[Christian Ouellet, Bloc, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Mr. Speaker, it is an excellent question. It is true that money could be saved and certain things could be changed in the present federal administration. We could also save money if our buildings were more efficient. The building next door still has only single-glazed windows. It costs nearly an extra million dollars per year for heating. Over three years, firearms registration could be paid for.

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

Mr. Speaker, there have been amnesties for four years. The people who do not want to register their firearms are not registering them. If those people are not registering their guns, does that make the registry more or less reliable? Should we be surprised that it is not working at full capacity if it is less reliable?

[Christian Ouellet, Bloc, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member for his question.

I was referring earlier to non-registered weapons. Certainly this makes the system far less effective. Some chiefs of police may say that it is not effective because we don’t have a count of everybody’s weapons. We wonder why some people are not interested in registering their guns. The people in my riding and the people I know are not reluctant to register their guns: they have nothing to hide. They do it easily. Why, in other places, is there this mindset of not wanting to register firearms? I have trouble understanding that, apart from the fact they are being encouraged by some parliamentarians.

[Gordon O'Connor, Conservative, Carleton—Mississippi Mills, ON]

Mr. Speaker, on a point of order, there have been discussions between the parties and I believe you will find consent for the following travel motion: That in relation to its study on the federal contribution to reducing poverty in Canada, six members of the Standing Committee on Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities be authorized to travel to Halifax, Nova Scotia, Moncton, New Brunswick, and Montreal, Quebec, from May 10 to 14, 2009, and that the necessary staff accompany the committee; that in relation to its study on the federal contribution to reducing poverty in Canada, six members of the Standing Committee on Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities be authorized to travel to Calgary, Alberta, to attend the Canadian Social Forum Conference from May 20 to 22, 2009, and that the necessary staff accompany the committee; and that in relation to its study on the federal contribution to reducing poverty in Canada, six members of the Standing Committee on Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities be authorized to travel to Toronto, Ontario, from June 1 to 2, 2009, and that the necessary staff accompany the committee.

[The Acting Speaker, Conservative, Barry Devolin]

Does the hon. minister have the unanimous consent of the House to move these motions?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[An hon. member]

No.