Debates of May 5th, 2009

Seal Hunt

[Denis Coderre, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

Madam Chair, the fact is that we have to find solutions to protect families. We should not talk about one region versus another. As Quebeckers, as Canadians, regardless of region, we must develop the tools we need to do this. We absolutely need to work with the public to convince them. That is a fact.

But perhaps we need to do things differently. The first thing we need to do is to say that this issue transcends partisan politics. We need to tell the public that, as Canadians, we must work together to help the families that are suffering. The people who are watching us do not want pointless debates. They want to know what we are doing. Today, I want to tell them officially that our party, on this side of the House, will support them and will act accordingly.

[David Tilson, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

Madam Chair, listening to debate tonight, the only downside I have heard with respect to the discussions that have taken place is the partisanship that has been slipping into this debate.

It is a problem—

[Gerry Byrne, Liberal, Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, NL]

Talk to your colleagues.

[David Tilson, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

It has been going on, as members know, on both sides. I am not going to say that one is worse than the other, but it has been slipping into that.

It is a Canadian problem. I am speaking here tonight not only as a member of Parliament, but as president of the Canada-Europe Parliamentary Association. When we have gone to Europe, it has been with an all-party delegation, and all parties have supported the position every time we have gone. We recently went to Sweden. We have gone to France, the Czech Republic, and Slovenia. We have gone to Lisbon and Berlin. We have gone to all those countries that were president of the European Union, and Sweden is about to become one. At every one of those sessions, the topic of the seal hunt came up.

We had members from all parties. I am just going to mention a few.

One is a member from the Bloc Québécois, the member for La Pointe-de-l'Île, who has been quite vocal over the years.

Another is the member for Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, who I claim is the expert on this topic. I am pleased that he has been along at these delegations and has spoken not only on behalf of his party but on behalf of Canada and on behalf of Newfoundland and Labrador. I congratulate him for the work that he has done.

We had Senator Lynch-Staunton, Senator Milne, and Senator Goldstein, and believe it or not, I remember one Senator Mac Harb was there. I do not recall him speaking for or against. I do not recall that, but we were all speaking against it. Why in the world was he so quiet? I do not want to get into all that. That is the problem of the Liberal Party.

It is particularly regrettable that this vote comes just one day before the Prime Minister attends the May 6th Canada-European Union leaders' summit in Prague, an event that underscores our important shared values historically in Europe.

As with any bilateral relationship, there are always some issues on which we will not agree. We will not let this single disagreement get in the way of our overall efforts at building a stronger good-faith community partnership between Canada and the European Union. However, members should rest assured that we will not allow our broader objectives to distract us from defending the interests of Canadian sealers and their families.

As has been indicated already in this debate, Canada goes to great lengths to have a humane, well-regulated, conservation-based seal hunt. Our standards are based on the best scientific advice available, including that of the European Food Safety Authority.

It is therefore particularly galling to see claims by European officials and politicians, who know better, that the hunting methods employed in Canada are cruel. The EU's own EFSA study stated categorically that seals can be killed humanely with the methods employed in Canada, primarily the rifle but also the hakapik. Indeed, the sealing methods employed in Canada are in many ways similar to killing methods used in other industrial sectors, including other fur industries in Europe. This makes the actions taken in Europe outrageous and hypocritical.

What is even more shocking is the way in which Senator Mac Harb, with the tacit permission of the Liberal leader, has attacked Canadian sealers. While the government was working to advocate on behalf of Canadian sealers—

[An hon. member]

Oh, oh!

[The Deputy Chair, NDP, Denise Savoie]

Order. I would ask the member who has just been shouting to restrain himself. I know everyone feels very passionate about this question, but I would ask for some order.

The hon. member for Dufferin—Caledon.

[David Tilson, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

Madam Chair, while the government was working to advocate on behalf of Canadian sealers, that Liberal senator was writing to ask members of the European parliament to take away their livelihood.

Let me be specifically clear. There can be no justification for new restrictions on seal products based on animal welfare resource conservation or public morality. This applies equally whether the ban is acted on by individual countries, such as has already been done by the Netherlands and Belgium, or at the European community level as per the vote today by the European parliament.

There also can be no comparison between the Canadian seal hunt and the recent European bans on products made from dog and cat fur. Unlike cats and dogs, seals are not household pets. They are wild animals and can be hunted like any other wild animal, as indeed a range of wild animals are hunted in Europe.

As stated by the Minister of International Trade today, “A ban can only take place if it is based on science”.

The Canadian seal hunt follows internationally accepted best practices. It is humane and environmentally sustainable. It is therefore the government's position that a comprehensive ban on seal products would be a violation of the Europeans' legal obligations under the WTO agreement.

Such a ban is clearly both discriminatory and an unnecessary obstacle to international trade, in violation of both the WTO agreement on technical barriers to trade and the general agreement on tariffs and trade of 1994.

Canada has already addressed the issue of the Dutch and Belgian bans with the WTO. We can request a panel at any time. We had not done so because the pending legislation in the European parliament would supersede national bans, and there has been no point in addressing national bans until that issue has been resolved.

We are also fully committed to taking the European Union to the WTO once the council ratifies the decision taken today by the European parliament to implement a ban on the importation of seal products for the purpose of retail sale.

One important aspect of the European measure that must be addressed is its impact upon Canadian sealers and their families. Sealing is a significant source of income in many small, isolated coastal communities throughout Atlantic Canada, Quebec and the north, representing as much as 35% of a sealer's annual income.

Canada's exports of seal products are in three forms: seal skins, seal oil and seal meat. Traditionally, the pelts have been the main commodity. The average annual processed value of seal products is $35 million to $40 million per year. There are 6,400 active sealers and 650 processors in 30 communities in Newfoundland, Quebec and Nunavut. For sealing communities in Atlantic Canada, the hunt can contribute up to 35% of their annual income. This issue is therefore of great concern to all of Canada as well as to every other country where a thriving commercial sealing industry exists.

For aboriginal communities, sealing is an important cultural tradition as well as a significant source of income. It has also been an important part of the Inuit way of life for thousands of years.

While the measure adopted by the European parliament today includes a limited exemption for some traditional Inuit and indigenous products, this will serve no useful purpose. Inuit spokespersons in both Canada and Greenland have consistently pointed out that such an exemption is meaningless if the overall market for seal products is destroyed by a ban.

Sealing is a lawful activity that helps provide jobs in remote coastal communities where few other opportunities exist. This has been confirmed by rigorous animal welfare principles which are internationally recognized by virtually all independent observers.

Our government will continue to aggressively counter the misinformation campaign being waged by professional anti-seal hunt lobby groups.

I am disappointed that the European parliament has voted to restrict seal products in its markets. We have clearly lived up to our obligations. The Canadian hunt is sustainable, humane and well managed.

Our government's position remains that any ban on a humanely conducted hunt such as Canada's is completely without cause. The facts remain clear. Independent veterinary reports show that in Canada's seal hunt, seals are harvested in a humane manner. Science proves that our seal hunt is a sustainable activity based on sound conservation principles.

We will therefore continue to defend the right of Canadian sealers to provide a livelihood for their families. I know after listening to this debate that I can rely on the support of all members of the House as we move forward.

[Todd Russell, Liberal, Labrador, NL]

Madam Chair, we talk about non-partisanship and within that vein I want to say to my hon. colleague that does allow for objective questions and critique in this instance of some of the actions or inactions of the government. I think that is a fair statement to make.

I would ask the member a couple of questions. First, when he starts his speech by saying that he is severing the seal hunt and the ban issue from the EU talks at the EU summit that is going to take place tomorrow, has he not already put us in a weakened position when it comes to what our stance is on the seal hunt and the ban that was just brought in by the European Union?

Second, regarding the public relations campaign that the government has supposedly undertaken, how much did it cost? What kind of changes does he foresee in terms of a public relations campaign as we go forward? Many people have talked about convincing European parliamentarians or the European public.

Third, our sealers need help today. The prospective ban probably had some impact on dampening the market and the price for seal pelts. The severe ice conditions this spring impacted the seal hunt itself. The sealers and the sealing communities need some help right now. Can we look forward to some help from the government for our sealers and our sealing communities? As we go forward, because of this ban that is going to come into place, there is going to be some hurt in our communities and within the sealing community. Can we expect the government to provide some help for our sealers as we go forward as well?

[David Tilson, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

Madam Chair, there was a delegation and again, I can only speak in my capacity as chair of the Canada-Europe Parliamentary Association, but we were just there. We were in Stockholm and Strasbourg. Many of these issues were discussed.

With respect to the first question, with respect to the Canadians and the Europeans, everything is on the table. Everything that we can think of is on the table. It is a very broad discussion. These are very early discussions that are going on with respect to the Canadians and the Europeans. That is all I can say. The Prime Minister is there. He obviously feels this is important enough that he is going to be part of this negotiation. That is how important these issues are with respect to Canada.

With respect to the cost of advertisements, I do not have that information. Perhaps some of the ministers do and the member can ask the question of those ministers. I can only say that members from the Liberal Party, the Bloc Québécois, I cannot really speak for the New Democratic Party, and the Conservative Party have gone over there and we have fought, fought, fought with respect to this issue of the seal hunt. I single out the member's colleague, the member for Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor who single-handedly has done a fantastic job in debating all members of the European parliament we have spoken to.

[Raynald Blais, Bloc, Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

Madam Chair, I would like to mention one thing in passing. I have in fact had the opportunity to go to Europe and speak before the parliamentarians and also to meet with some of them. One of the points that strikes me in this matter is the degree of disinformation. So much of it in fact that, when the topic of the ban comes up, they say there is an exemption for the Inuit. That way they wash their hands of it.

Today a press release was made public from the Inuit delegation that has been at the European parliament in Strasbourg, They state categorically that they were deceived by the decision reached. It is bad for them as hunters but also as the Inuit community. They describe it as nothing more than a political ploy.

I believe that the hon. member across the way who has just spoken will surely be in agreement with me that the political ploy of including an exemption for the Inuit, which is criticized by the Inuit, speaks volumes on the way people perceive the decision that has been announced by the European Parliament. Everyone loses, even those who have been exempted today.

[David Tilson, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

Madam Chair, of course it is a ruse, absolutely. As I raised in questions to some of my colleagues who spoke earlier, the whole purpose of this thing was to stop the hunt. It had nothing to do with the selling of products. It had to do with stopping the hunt. “Stop killing the seals” is what Brigitte Bardot and Heather Mills said, and maybe Paul McCartney said it as well, although he did not say a lot. That was their position.

Yet the resolution says that the hunt continues, that sealers can continue to hunt all they like, but they just cannot sell the products. What a strange resolution.

With respect to the Inuit, I can only repeat what I said earlier in an exchange with some of my colleagues. How strange it is that this exemption can be provided to the Inuit. Who is going to buy their products when there is a ban on the sale of products? The whole resolution is a major goof. Government lawyers are looking at this issue now and when they proceed to the WTO, I hope that Canada will be successful on this.

[Scott Andrews, Liberal, Avalon, NL]

Madam Chair, I have two specific questions.

In his speech the member referred to how Prime Minister Harper is going to bring this up. If we read the newspapers today, one headline reads, “Harper to fight with EU over climate change”. He is going to the wall on climate change. Another headline reads, “European vote takes aim at seal hunt; Result won't derail free trade talks, says Harper spokesman”. He cannot have it both ways. Is he going to bat or not?

The member talked about going to the World Trade Organization over this. Why did the government not do it in April 2007 when Belgium and the Netherlands passed a ban in their countries on the importation of seal products? Nothing happened with the Conservative government in 2007.

[David Tilson, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

Madam Chair, I am only going to repeat what I said before. I am not privy to the negotiations. The ministers are, the cabinet is and certainly the Prime Minister is, but I am not personally privy to those discussions.

I know, because it has been said by Canadian and European officials, that everything is on the table. Will the seal industry be discussed? I do not know that either. I just know what has been said, which is that everything is on the table. It may, it may not be discussed.

We are now into the legalities of this whole issue. The Canadian lawyers are looking at potential actions at the World Trade Organization. Do they have grounds? All they have to do is listen to what has been said here tonight. I think they certainly have grounds. It is unethical, illegal and confusing and it does not make any sense.

We will wait and see what the lawyers say but quite frankly, if that action is proceeded with, and the minister has already said it is going to be proceeded with, I think that Canada will be successful in that proceeding.

[Gerry Byrne, Liberal, Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, NL]

Madam Chair, I would like to lower the partisanship and actually get some straight answers. I am sure the hon. member would want to provide information not only to the House but to all Canadians. Given the fact that the government has accepted to a certain degree that this will occur, will the government now assist sealers with income support?

The Minister of Human Resources and Skills Development, and I am sure the member will concur with this, when asked a question about ice compensation, already said that they are making sure that “we are looking after these individuals, and we will be addressing that situation very soon”. That was directed to seal fishers.

Can we confirm that will occur and will other measures soon take place?

[David Tilson, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

Madam Chair, he should ask the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans. I am not trying to give a glib answer. I am not qualified to give that answer. The sealers are having a bad hunt anyway, aside from this whole issue. It is a very difficult time with the ice and everything else. So--

[The Deputy Chair, NDP, Denise Savoie]

Order, please. Before we resume debate, I would just like to remind all members that they are to refer to other members in the House not by name but by title or riding.

Resuming debate, the hon. member for Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou.

[Yvon Lévesque, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

Madam Chair, I come from a riding where 14 coastal municipalities depend almost entirely on fishing and seal hunting. I was very bitterly disappointed to see the position taken by the European Union, a position as illogical as it is senseless, confused and flatly partisan on the part of these countries.

The European Parliament has demonstrated unbelievable hypocrisy. The seal hunt is a cultural practice both in Quebec and in Canada. Given the advertising by some European extremists, how could we describe the bullfights, for example, in Spain? If we compare the methods used to kill a seal to the way they massacre bulls and horses in their bullfights, would it be any more logical for us to say that any product derived from horses or cattle that comes from Spain should be banned in Canada? That would be unbelievably illogical. It is a culture, in Europe just as much as in Quebec or in Canada. It is also a means of survival.

Take the communities on the Magdalen Islands, for example. A delegation from the Standing Committee on Fisheries and Oceans toured the various fishery sectors earlier this spring. People were worried everywhere, be it on the Magdalen Islands, in Nova Scotia, in Newfoundland or on Prince Edward Island. Members of Parliament and members of the official opposition, the Bloc Québécois and the NDP took part in that tour and could see how worried the people who rely on this activity to survive were.

If they banned bullfights in Spain, I wonder what the reaction would be. We have seen the outright lies used to show the horrors of the seal hunt. At one point, the Canadian lobbyists who were vehemently and dishonestly denouncing the hunt even had to be told to stop.

We support the motion presented in this House. Why? First, the seal hunt is a lawful activity. Second, the Canadian government no longer funds commercial activities. Third, the slaughter of an animal, be it wild or domestic, is never a pleasant sight for anyone. There are ways of slaughtering, and the Government of Canada has been involved in finding the right ways to ensure that they do not suffer. Methods have been developed by experts.

There is an exception for the Inuit in Quebec, Labrador, the Northwest Territories and Nunavut, but these people often market their products through third parties who label them with their corporate name, which means that these people will never be able to sell their products on the European market. It is incredibly hypocritical to claim otherwise.

We were very concerned when we visited the Maritimes this spring because of the huge increase in the seal population due to the controls put in place to eliminate overkill, which the European Union could have described differently. That really hurt the lobster and cod fishers, among others. This is not an excuse to say that we will hunt more seals, but we could have a legitimate hunt, as we have always done in Canada and Quebec. It is not a massacre as such.

For example, in Newfoundland and Labrador, at least seven coastal communities derived between 15% and 35% of their income from the seal hunt. I am looking at my colleague from Newfoundland and Labrador, and I believe he agrees with that statement. Between 5,000 and 6,000 people derive income from the seal hunt. In most cases, it is supplementary income that makes up for losses they suffer occasionally. Some hunters say that the money they earn from the seal hunt makes up between 25% and 35% of their annual income. That is quite significant. It is much more significant than a corrida in Spain, for example, where there is a small economic boom during the corrida, but nothing afterward. Many innocent animals are killed during that time, or rather massacred.

On February 24, the Bloc Québécois had a motion adopted in the Standing Committee on Fisheries and Oceans calling upon the government to intensify representations to the European Parliament and implement a widespread educational campaign in Europe to counteract the inflammatory campaigns of misinformation against the seal hunt waged by abolitionist groups. and to do everything in its power to ensure that hunters and the seal industry have the best conditions possible for the 2009 hunting season.

We will certainly manage to get through the 2009 season, but we must not lose sight of the fact that the European ban comes into effect in 2010. Before it does, we have an obligation as a government to take steps, immediately, promptly and vigorously. It is urgent.

There are many myths about the seal hunt. The Canadian government subsidy for commercial activities, for instance, does not exist. It has never been used and the potential funding could be applied to using the meat, the oil and the omegas produced by seals. There is a huge number of potential derivative products.

Unfortunately again this spring the myths about white coat hunts were circulating, yet they have been banned since 1987. That was not exactly yesterday. People claim that the seal hunt is not a sustainable activity. Given its ability to reproduce itself, if seal hunting is not a sustainable activity, this means that not one mine, not one single stand of forest, will renew itself. None of them renews itself as much as the seals can.

According to another myth, seal hunting is authorized merely to re-establish the cod stock. It may be of some use for that purpose, but the scientists are not yet sure of that. Anyway, that is not and never was the purpose of the seal hunt. We also know that the Canadian government has ensured that steps were taken to make sure hunters were certain the seals were dead before butchering them. So far those measures have been respected.

[Scott Simms, Liberal, Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL]

Madam Chair, I would like to ask my colleague from Nunavik a question. I do not know the exact name of his riding, but Nunavik is very important to all of Quebec, Newfoundland and Labrador, eastern Canada, the Inuit and to us as well.

My question deals with the situation that he pointed out about hypocrisy because it is a very good point. There is a small exemption for the Inuit usage, but yet the Inuit community is so dependent on the commercial markets created on the east coast of this country.

Yes, I accept that. It is very important for all of Canada and not just for the east coast.

My question is this. How will this ban affect the people of Nunavik and their nation after this ban is put into place, and how will it affect their limited access to commercial markets?

[Yvon Lévesque, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

Madam Chair, the ban will have the same effect on the Inuit as on aboriginal or non-aboriginal peoples and on any segment of the Canadian population because, as I explained earlier, the Inuit who hunts seals and uses them to make goods will have to rely on a middleman to market and sell his goods.

In general, they do business with large companies that brand the product with their company. If that does not happen, Canada will be accused of conducting a seal hunt and identifying its goods with the Inuit and there will be a ban. That is what will happen. That is the extent of the hypocrisy.

[Scott Andrews, Liberal, Avalon, NL]

Madam Chair, I would like to commend the member for his work on the fisheries committee. We work with all parties and the fisheries committee does do some good work. We normally keep it in a non-partisan nature.

I would like to ask the member if he could put a human face on this industry for his province. In our province, there are sealers that draw 15% to 35% of their total income from the sealing industry. It is very important because at the beginning of the year this helps them get into the next fishery and helps them set up for the fishery after that, so this is a very important start to the fishing income.

I wonder if the hon. member could put a human face on it and explain how it would impact his area in Quebec like it has impacted the northeast coast of Newfoundland and Labrador.

[Yvon Lévesque, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

Madam Chair, I thank my colleague for the question.

My colleague sits on the House of Commons Standing Committee on Fisheries and Oceans and is also a very active member. He was very proud that we visited his province and, while we were there, he even went out of his way to meet us. We were able to give a human face to those we met, whether from Prince Edward Island, Newfoundland, Nova Scotia, Gaspé, the Magdalen Islands or even Nunavik.

In Nunavik, people are assigned to watch for seals and they spend nights sitting on a snowbank because hay and straw are scarce in Nunavik. They sit on a snowbank with a rifle and when the seals appear they fire shots into the air. Everyone gets up quickly to capture one or two seals. The village may survive for one or two months on these seals. Nothing is wasted; even the bones are gnawed on. Trophies and works of art are carved from the bone. The pelts are used to make boots, slippers, coats, mittens, toques and small hats to wear under the tuques.

I know that I can be recognized by my hat and not the other way around.

Those people use every part of the animal as much as possible, since quite often, that is all they have to survive. In Newfoundland and Labrador, the seal hunt represents 15% to 35% of revenues, but in Nunavik and Nunavut, 70% to 85% of the population lives off the seal hunt.

[Randy Kamp, Conservative, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans]

Madam Chair, I thank my colleague for his intervention. I think he covered the issues quite well. I have enjoyed working with him on the fisheries committee, as well.

I think on this issue the committee is resolute and until very recently, I think all of Canada's Parliament has been united on this issue. So it concerned me, and I wondered if it concerned him, when more recently a Liberal senator claimed to be doing the work of the European parliament.

At a time like this, more than ever, I think we need solidarity. I think it is not partisan to want solidarity on this issue. It is not partisan to expect parties that claim to support the seal hunt to ensure that their members exhibit that solidarity as well. Today, when I heard that same senator say on CTV that he was happy with this outcome and disappointed with the Minister of International Trade indication that he wanted to take this to the WTO, I just wondered what the members of the Bloc, and this member in particular, thought of these comments.

[Yvon Lévesque, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

Madam Chair, I think it is unfortunate we are holding an internal political debate, because this is becoming a political issue at the international level.

I am not surprised to see differing viewpoints within Canada. This can be shocking for Canadians and I think this is comparable to how Quebeckers feel when they see MPs from Quebec formulating opinions that are harmful to Quebec's interests. We feel the same.

Unfortunately, we cannot do anything about it. We fought to live in a free world. It is unfortunate that these things happen, but thankfully, only one politician has chosen to speak out to express that position and that is fortunate for us. It could have been worse. There are always politicians who will take advantage of a given situation and hurt everyone.

[Scott Andrews, Liberal, Avalon, NL]

Madam Chair, I notice the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans, again, likes to bring up the only celebrity the animal rights groups could get this year, a no-name, unelected senator. The Conservative Party continues to use this one person as its spokesperson. It likes to continue to bring it up over and over. It is the only celebrity the animal rights groups could get this year and the only people in this Parliament who are paying attention to that celebrity are members of the Conservative Party of Canada.

[Yvon Lévesque, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

Madam Chair, given the current problem, I think it is very important to immediately set our differences aside and, together, fight for the very survival of our seal hunters, no matter what political party they support and no matter what area of Canada they live in. We must wage this battle, because no one will do it for us.