Debates of Sept. 28th, 2010

Opposition Motion—Long Form Census

[Anita Neville, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Mr. Speaker, members on this side very much respect a citizen's right to privacy but, more important, we respect the right of citizens to have services from their government. We expect the government to respond based on good information and quality information so that the needs of Canadians are identified and that it has landmarks to see whether progress is being made.

When we talk about privacy, it is incumbent upon the hon. member opposite and his government to look at the many breaches of private citizens' privacy that have taken place under their government.

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

Mr. Speaker, to me, this debate is really about citizenship.

I will go back to a line that was actually attributed to President Kennedy but was in fact an idea that came from Greek philosophers, I am told. Perhaps it was from Pericles. The line reads, “Ask not what your country can do for you but what you can do for your country”.

It seems that the Prime Minister cannot even fill out a form every 10 years for his country.

Someone raised the point about how some people may feel annoyed or uncomfortable when a census taker comes to their door asking them to fill out a form. That may be true, some people, without a doubt, will feel uncomfortable, but that information is used to decide where hospitals will be built. That is a greater common good. It is the responsibility of the citizen to look after the greater common good.

In that equation, would it not be worth imposing the annoyance to produce something that is for the greater common good?

[Anita Neville, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Mr. Speaker, I spoke earlier about citizenship. I think that filling out the mandatory long form census is about citizenship.

However, my colleague raises an important point. This information talks about the kind of health care that is needed. We do not want to go to a hospital that is primarily a maternity hospital when the needs are for geriatric individuals. We do not want to see that there are not enough police on the streets or that the allocation of police is not what it should be because we do not have the information.

We want schools and communities to be able to plan so that infrastructure meets the changing needs of communities.

What I am hearing from hon. members opposite is that we benefit by ignorance. We on this side do not accept that.

[Wayne Easter, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to speak to this motion today, moved by my colleague from Westmount—Ville-Marie, calling on the government to reinstate immediately the long form census.

The motion, as members know, goes somewhat further by calling:

...on the government to introduce legislative amendments to the Statistics Act to remove completely the provision of imprisonment from Section 31 of the Act in relation to the Long-form Census, the Census of Population and the Census of Agriculture.

As members know, I questioned a member of the government earlier on the fact that at 12 o'clock today the census on agriculture still has a fine of $500 and a threat of imprisonment. That shows the double standard that the government has and the lack of principle for its remarks on this particular issue.

This is an extremely important motion in that it goes to the heart of political decision making at all levels, decisions that should be based on facts and facts that should be based on absolutely accurate data. Whether it is a bus route in a city, a school in a community, a rural community centre or a rural health centre, those decisions by municipalities, by provincial governments, by federal governments and by community advisory committees rely on accurate data. Therefore, accurate data is essential.

An article in The Globe and Mail by Steven Chase outlines how ridiculous the current government's position on the census is and has been. He states:

A study conducted by Statistics Canada weeks before Ottawa revealed its plan to scrap the mandatory long-form census found that significant errors can creep into survey results gathered on a voluntary basis.

He goes on to say, “it'll undermine the rich trove of data upon which they rely”.

I would add that because of the way the government is changing the 2011 census, it will throw off the trend lines and the reliability over time of data that Canada has become famous for around the world. We were respected around the world through Statistics Canada. We were the model to follow. The government is undermining that respect and that international reputation.

The article in The Globe and Mail goes on to say how the “new census-taking rules could skew data in a range of areas from housing to demographics”.

As the article implies, anyone who deals with statistics and data collection around the world knows that a voluntary census is flawed.

However, to make it even worse, the government is not only going to go to the voluntary census, it is trying to cover it up by putting out more forms, which will actually make the data even more unreliable because it will skew the figures. It is spending $30 million more than the regular census for less reliable information. Does that make sense? I know this is a borrow and spend government and there is nothing even on the census that it does not want to spend more money on to get less reliable information. Does that make sense? I certainly think not.

However, as we have seen on so many issues on what the government does, it does not want its government of ideology, ideology over substance and ideology over facts, and it takes the position of not letting the facts get in the way of decisions it wants to make and it will try everything to skew those facts. We have seen that in some of the debates recently in this House.

The government's position is clear. It is ideology over substance and ideology over facts that infiltrates most of the decisions of the government.

In my responsibility as agriculture critic, I can look at the Canadian Wheat Board. The minister does not want to hear the facts of that issue either. In fact, he has been minister for a long time, but he has not even been to its offices yet because he does not want to learn the good work it does. My point is it is ideology—

[Dean Del Mastro, Conservative, Peterborough, ON]

We don't believe in them. We believe in free markets, Wayne. It's foreign to you.

[Wayne Easter, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

—or the law, as the member is screaming opposite. He is a law and order member of Parliament. It is the law and order agenda: spend $9 million more for prisons for unreported criminals and crime. What ridiculousness.

However, let us look at what others, who are responsible for decisions, are saying about this stupid decision that is based on ideology by the government. In a report prepared and presented to the Edmonton city council on July 15, the actions of the federal government on eliminating the mandatory long form census were condemned. The report stated that the elimination of the census would have a direct impact on all the citizens of the city in that the loss of this data could negatively impact the ability of the municipality to plan everything from the location of recreational centres to transportation issues.

The Federation of Canadian Municipalities, in a letter to the Minister of Industry in July, stated that clearly that not only did federal and provincial governments require the data from the mandatory long form census, but municipalities like Edmonton, Calgary, Charlottetown, et cetera relied rely upon this data.

The Canada West Foundation's CEO, Roger Gibbens, has opposed the drive to ignorance by the Conservatives, stating the foundation knows, “a voluntary census will not produce reliable data. This is not an opinion; it is as close to a fact as one can get”.

The Canadian Medical Association appears to share the concerns of the city of Edmonton. According to the article in the Canadian Medical Association Journal on July 15, it stated that the decision of the government was absurd and dangerous. It said, “With no consultation, the [Prime Minister's] government has undermined evidence-based decision-making in Canada”. It went on to state, “In health care, it is an essential tool in the planning and delivery of services”. It concluded by saying, “If this decision is not reversed, Canada will stand alone among developed nations in not having detailed information about its population”.

That is quite a statement. It shows where the government is taking Canada. No wonder we are losing international respect. The government bases all its decisions on ideology and tries to avoid the facts at all costs.

Let me look at another area of hypocrisy of the government. The Conservatives claim they are doing away with the mandatory long form census to keep Canadians out of jail, or having to pay fines. That does not and apparently will not apply to farmers.

Who will be responsible for sending farmers to jail? It will be the Minister of Agriculture , according to the Minister of Industry. When the Minister of Industry was before committee, he said that is the Minister of Agriculture's decision.

As I said earlier, there is a clear double standard in that the government argues that it is all about jail time, but as the Minister of Agriculture knows, the agriculture census is important. The only way to get that reliable data is through a mandatory form. It is mandatory with fines and jail sentences applied against the farm community. The farm community accepts that because it knows how valuable that information is and how accurate it must be in terms of business decisions.

What we have is a decision made somewhere in the bowels of the PMO in the spring, imposed down on the government's members in the House. Now they are all singing the tune and trying to argue the case. It really is ideology over substance. That is all.

[Mike Lake, Conservative, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Industry]

Mr. Speaker, I talked earlier about the fact that the Liberals have singled out the most vulnerable, the poor, aboriginal communities and new Canadians for example, as people who are least likely to fill out the mandatory long form census.

I have two question for the member.

First, if a single mother with two or three kids lives below the poverty line and does not want to tell the government, for whatever reason, how much housework she did last week, does the hon. member believe she should be threatened with a $500 fine?

Second, if new Canadians, for whatever reason, say that they do not want to share with the government their religion, should they be threatened with $500 fines?

Those are two very simple yes/no answer questions. I hope to get that type of answer from the hon. member.

[Wayne Easter, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

Mr. Speaker, the member just does not get it. Those are the kinds of citizens from whom it is important to get information. If we do not get information from the full sector of society, and that is why it is required to be mandatory, then the data is thrown off. We need that information. Whether they are single mothers, or in the aboriginal community or in the farm community, we need that information. A voluntary census, as expert after expert and organization after organization have told the government, will not provide that reliable data.

Therefore, it is important to get it. It is important for those citizens who the member is talking about to provide that information so the right public policy decisions can be made to better their lives.

The member is trying to undermine—

[The Deputy Speaker, Conservative, Andrew Scheer]

Questions and comments, the hon. member for Gatineau.

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

Mr. Speaker, what does my colleague think about the statement made by the member for Beauce, the former industry minister who was once responsible for the census? At the July 27 meeting of the Standing Committee on Industry, Science and Technology, which I attended, the member for Beauce said that he had received as many as 1,000 complaints a day about the census. But Ms. Stoddart, the Privacy Commissioner, told us that they had received 52 complaints over the last 20 years and six complaints in the last decade.

What kind of disinformation and demagoguery is that? Could the member explain what is going on with the Conservatives?

[Wayne Easter, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

Mr. Speaker, the member makes a very valid point. The government spin is all about that. The member for Beauce never backed that up with emails or the information. It was a figure he pulled out of the air to try to spin the line to argue the Conservative point of view.

The government is all about that. We hear it every day, even on the gun registry debate. We have seen it use false statistics. We need accurate information.

Therefore, the member for Beauce is clearly wrong because he has not backed up that argument. I would go to the central authorities that have documented how many complaints they have received, and that would be the more accurate figure.

It just goes to Conservative spin once again and goes right to ideology.

[Maria Minna, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

Mr. Speaker, we all know no one has ever been convicted for not filling out their form, so let us get away from that.

I want to talk about what was raised a few minutes ago and that was new Canadians, immigrants and so on. One of the major tools we have to get the data that tells us the settlement rate, the kind of jobs they get, the blockage they face in schools and so on is through the census.

Perhaps the hon. member could tell us exactly how this information helps the government in developing policy for multiculturalism, race relations and immigration.

[Wayne Easter, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member is absolutely right. She mentioned there were members of the community who were fearful of filling out government documentation because of some of the countries they came from. However, when it is made mandatory and Statistics Canada personnel explain to them that it is important for decision making relative to their geographic—

[The Deputy Speaker, Conservative, Andrew Scheer]

Resuming debate, the hon. member for Sherbrooke.

[Serge Cardin, Bloc, Sherbrooke, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to say that I will share my time with the member for Gatineau. It is a good thing we are not having a talent show today, because my voice might go up or down a few octaves. The flu is setting in all over.

My thoughts on Statistics Canada's long form census, which the government wants to change from mandatory to voluntary, are very clear. The government is trying to discourage the large percentage of people who responded to the mandatory long form census. At the same time, in a way, the government wants to disengage from more humane and socially oriented policies.

Some time ago—even some years ago—the government set about cutting subsidies and bursaries for human and social science research centres. Hon. members will recall that there was a huge outcry over this. Today, we still get the feeling that the government does not want to assume its responsibilities, because it does not want to have an accurate portrait of Quebec and Canadian society at five-year intervals. This portrait can initiate policy development, especially social policy, but policies in other sectors as well.

Everyone probably knows an urban planner somewhere. I was a municipal councillor and I recently spoke to the urban planner in charge of statistics. He said the government is under the impression that it is paying for these people to gather information that other people end up using. It is not a big deal because the work needs to be done. They have general information, but to make the information more specific and to interpret the information these people also have to spend a great deal of time making the information relevant to the municipality or to the region. It is labour intensive.

On August 27, I had the opportunity to attend a committee meeting where there were three groups of witnesses who, I must admit, were there to support keeping the mandatory long form census. Very few people were there to support the government's action to make the form voluntary.

At the previous meeting—to set the date for a meeting of the Standing Committee on Industry, Science and Technology in order to continue talking about the census—the government initially wanted no part of it because it could not come up with credible witnesses to support its position. Nevertheless, it was striking to see the differences and to see what motivated each group.

Proponents of maintaining the long form census are all, or almost all, in agreement. Take Mel Cappe, president of the Institute for Research on Public Policy, for example. He knows all about government and the federal public service. He was appointed by order in council as a deputy minister under Brian Mulroney. He is a former clerk of the Privy Council and cabinet secretary to Mr. Chrétien. He is finishing his career in loyal service to the current Prime Minister. This man was thoroughly impartial in this testimony. What he told us was in no way partisan. He said that he had written four letters to the Prime Minister and the Minister of Industry. He did not receive a response from the Prime Minster and received only an acknowledgment of receipt from the Minister of Industry's office.

It was very clear to Mr. Cappe that the long form census is in the public's general interest. It also responds to the public's needs. It allows us to track emerging trends, needs and public concerns.

Obviously, it is mandatory, which deeply disturbs the Conservatives. And they know full well that a large segment of the population will not fill out the questionnaire if it is voluntary.

If it were simply a statistical issue and the proportion of people who did not fill it out were equal to the proportion that did, then maybe nothing would change. But we know what happens in these situations. People do not necessarily see it as an obligation, but they see it as their responsibility to help create fair and equitable policies in this society. But with voluntary participation, there will be groups of people who will not answer, groups of people living in specific circumstances. So we will not have any information on these groups of people, which will make a voluntary questionnaire useless, in practice.

Numerous people, even internationally, have stated that Canadian statistics will be useless, or close to it, and that they will not be trustworthy and will not have any credibility.

As we know, the Canadian Institute of Planners has taken the same stand. It uses the data often, if not all the time, for short-term as well as medium- and long-term planning. In fact, we know very well that we must be able to forecast certain population movements and compare them from census to census. This will no longer be possible commencing next year if the government does not change its policy.

As Mr. Cappe stated, we must produce reliable and robust data. He also talked about minimizing coercion, minimizing the intrusion into people's private lives and maximizing respect for the confidentiality of the data. As for confidentiality and privacy, I reread the 2006 questionnaire. I could not really say which questions were truly invasive or of a personal nature in the questionnaire. My responses to the questionnaire could have been published in my region's daily newspaper without my permission and it would not have bothered me. There was nothing special there.

Groups that concurred with the government and claimed to represent many organizations with hundreds of thousands of members said quite seriously, with a straight face, that more people would fill out the questionnaire if it were voluntary. On the contrary, it was clear from the presentations that people would not. As I was saying earlier, an identifiable group of people would no longer participate in the census if it were voluntary. Therefore, data would be missing and in the end, the government would have less success in creating sound policies.

This affects many areas of activity. We must reinstate the mandatory questionnaire in order to establish and implement policies that meet the needs of the people, sometimes those who are more marginalized. The government is always swimming against the current. People increasingly believe that they are required to participate in this evolution of society by having as much information as possible on a given date.

It is obvious that this government is not concerned with the social sciences. We need only look to the Canadian Association for Business Economics, which is also opposed to this decision that it maintains was made “without serious consultation with the broad population of data users”.

Furthermore, according to the association, “Decisions are made regularly by business and government about the location of resources and new initiatives based on the data in the long form.”

Even economists are saying that we must keep it.

[Paul Szabo, Liberal, Mississauga South, ON]

Mr. Speaker, accountability is often talked about in this place. In my view, accountability is a concept that means that one needs to be prepared to explain or justify one's actions or decisions in a manner that is true, full, and plain. That has not happened here. The member has noted a couple of examples. There has been no consultation, no rationale, and no support from anyone, other than the Fraser Institute. There is no justification for the changes. There is a reliance on the bogeyman, such as the threat of going to jail, which does not happen.

On privacy breaches, there have been no complaints.This really goes to the heart of what the Conservative government stands for. The government's official position is that it is defending the right of citizens not to divulge personal information.

The government has a constitutional obligation to sponsor a census on a periodic basis. Its reasoning is that it will allow people to not answer questions to protect their privacy. It is basically saying that nobody has to answer any of the questions. This is a circular argument that gets us absolutely nowhere and that, in fact, damages Canada as a whole.

Does the hon. member believe that the government has been accountable not only to Parliament but to Canadians?

[Serge Cardin, Bloc, Sherbrooke, QC]

Mr. Speaker, several witnesses who appeared before the committee expressed regret about the fact that the government appears to have made this change so suddenly, seemingly overnight. Several witnesses also said that responsibility for the method and the tools should lie with the chief statistician to ensure that the best possible methods are used to get answers that give us the most accurate view of our society, how it is evolving and how it is changing.

I think it is important to revisit the main argument of the Conservatives, who are saying that people are being threatened with jail time. Not a single person has ever been jailed for this, and besides, the motion proposes removing that measure.

Now when it comes to fines, as far as I know, we will still have the short form census and we will still have fines. In that regard, if we remove the jail time and fines, we might as well make tax returns voluntary. I think that very few people would file them, and we would have no information and even less money to put policies into action.

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I wonder what my hon. colleague thinks of the statement made by the member for Beauce, who said he received up to 1,000 complaints a day concerning the census when he was industry minister, when the Privacy Commissioner said that only about 50 complaints have been received in the past 20 years and six complaints in the past 10 years?

I wonder if my colleague could talk a little about the demagoguery demonstrated by the member for Beauce?

[Serge Cardin, Bloc, Sherbrooke, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the member for Beauce might have exaggerated a bit with his 1,000 emails a day, since I imagine that it would take a lot of propaganda to bring in that kind of response.

My office, which receives a lot of complaints, has not received that many. Not even close. It reminds me a bit of the people who would sometimes make requests to the municipal council and also to Parliament. They always tend to exaggerate to give some weight to their weak arguments. The Conservative government is making arguments to try to get support. But that is not even it, because they do not even want support. People are being forced to take action to try to slow down this very ideological government.

I think that this government has not yet found the best political advisors who are in tune with the needs and aspirations of the public, as revealed by a good, mandatory long form census.

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the Bloc Québécois supports the Liberal Party's motion to immediately reinstate the mandatory long form census. In the same vein, the Bloc is also calling for the removal of the provision on possible imprisonment if someone does not complete the census.

I want to point out one very important thing to our Conservative friends about where the census comes from. Let us go back to a time of obscurantism—I am not necessarily talking about the Reform Party of Canada, which was the precursor to the Conservative Party and still instills fear, because we know and see some of the members— when despots had absolute power. These despots could choose whether their subjects lived or died. These monarchs wanted to get as rich as possible, even at the expense of other kings or their own people. In other words, the king's opinion was the only one that mattered; he had a monopoly on the truth. Many of these kings even felt that they ruled by divine right.

Then came the revolutions. After them came a period of reflection when intelligent thought gained the upper hand. I would like the Conservatives to come back to earth rather than having us go back in time. I would like them to stay with us. During the liberal revolutions, these despots were removed. A new system was put in place. For almost 400 years—perhaps a bit less—this is how things have worked: a democratic system has been put in place. The democrats who are elected care about the lot of their people and reflect on how to improve it and how to improve citizens' lives. They also believe that they need information.

At the time, this information was known as political mathematics. That is where it all began. Political mathematics entails having all the—I would like my Conservative friends to listen carefully to the next word—scientific information, obtained by using a scientific method. The term scientific is very important. I know that some MPs believe that the world was created 5,000 years ago and that human beings lived alongside dinosaurs. That is not true. They should stop believing such things. They are not helping science and not helping the Quebec or Canadian public.

The fact remains that scientific mathematics has adopted the connotation of the German word statistik. These statistics, like those published by Statistics Canada and the Institut de la statistique du Québec, help the decision-maker, the elected representative, the democrat. The elected democrat wants to help the people, the citizens, and take an enlightened and scientific view of that people's situation in all spheres of life and society and throughout the nations they represent. Therefore, it is very important for the Conservatives to remain in the contemporary world and not take us back to the Middle Ages. It is very important to take note of this.

For these and other reasons based on scientific common sense, the Bloc Québécois rejects the changes to the census questionnaire proposed by the Reform Conservative government. These changes are based strictly on ideology, which is frightening, very frightening. In fact it worries us; science is being attacked.

These changes will hinder the ability of Quebec and its municipalities to put forward targeted and effective public policies that meet the needs of citizens. I know that this is a new concept for them. I would like them to move in that direction and we will help them do that.

In order to achieve the goal of collecting reliable data for proper scientific sampling, the mandatory nature of the long form census must be maintained. The Reform Conservatives want to sabotage the scientific aspect of the census, which is troubling, very troubling. I have heard the Reform Conservatives say things that are complete nonsense about this. I mentioned one such thing earlier, and I repeat: the member for Beauce has suggested that when he was the minister responsible for the census—the industry minister—he received up to 1,000 complaints a day regarding the census. Anything Capitaine Bonhomme could say is far less scary than the terrible things the member for Beauce is saying. A real bogeyman he is, that member for Beauce.

Yet the Privacy Commissioner, Jennifer Stoddart, said on July 27, 2010—I was present at the Standing Committee on Industry, Science and Technology meeting—that over the past 20 years, only 52 complaints have been received regarding all aspects of the census. We are talking about 52 complaints in 20 years, even thought the hon. member for Beauce said he received 1,000 a day. There have been only six complaints in recent years. I find it appalling that he would say such things. I think he should be sent to the corner to think about what he has done, because, let me assure this House, his opinion is not typical of Quebeckers.

We are sick of hearing the Reform Conservatives say that we are threatening Canadians with jail time if they do not complete the census questionnaire. First of all, as we know, the census has been mandatory since 1918. That is important to emphasize—1918, one year after the National Hockey League was created. My colleague, from Edmonton, an MP and secretary of state, will like that, since he once worked for the Edmonton Oilers, a team that has had its share of glory days.

Once again, it should be stated that all the opposition parties—there are thee in the House—agree with eliminating the jail term. We do not want people to go to jail because they do not fill out the census form. I will say it again so that they understand. We do not want people to go to jail because they do not fill out the census form. I saw my colleague from Ottawa—Orléans nod his head and we agree on this aspect. This measure needs to be taken out; it makes no sense.

More than 300 organizations and municipalities, including the City of Gatineau, are opposed to the Reform Conservatives' unscientific approach that will deprive them of statistics essential to the well-being of their citizens. Once again, this government has demonstrated its hostility towards science with this decision. All scientific organizations and university professors are calling for the mandatory long form to be reinstated as it is the best method for obtaining a representative sample of the whole society. A voluntary sample would never be approved by researchers given the unrepresentative characteristics of the answers received.

It is clear that by eliminating the long form census the Reform Conservative government is hoping to dilute science—which is appalling and sends a chill down my spine—and then be in a better position to discredit it. It is frightening. This tactic could be used to weaken social programs at various levels of government. Instead of fixing and eliminating the issue of poverty, one way for a right-wing government to avoid action is by hiding it. A voluntary survey could have that effect by under-representing many social groups, even entire regions or cities, where there are underprivileged populations. It needs to be said.

How are we to justify measures to help society's poorest and our linguistic minorities when the data are incomplete and unreliable? That is a fair question, and the answer is understandable. This makes no sense to do this. It should not be done. But it will be easier to justify imposing what we all know is an appalling right-wing Reform Conservative agenda opposed to scientific progress when the picture of reality is distorted by poor-quality statistics.

A voluntary census will make it much easier for this Reform Conservative government to better justify its ideological, demagogic measures by ignoring reality whenever reality does not suit its purposes.

Even Munir Sheikh, who resigned on July 22 from his position as Statistics Canada' chief statistician, said so. He sent dozens and dozens of emails urging the government not to do this. This man of principle took a stand against the government, then he resigned because he did not want his reputation blackened by the lack of scientific rigour favoured by a government that is not acting in the best interest of Canadians and Quebeckers.

[Shawn Murphy, Liberal, Charlottetown, PE]

Mr. Speaker, in this whole debate what I think is disturbing Canadians the most is the decision-making process used within the present government.

Normally when a decision of this magnitude is made, we would expect a very deep analysis to be done. It would be logical. It would be rational. The pros would be weighed and the cons would be weighed. There would be an extensive period of consultation, and the many groups, stakeholders, and organizations would be consulted. However, in this case, the evidence, according to the debate and all media reports, is that no consultation took place. There were no groups, no organizations, no individuals, and no religions consulted. Statistics Canada was consulted, and it said no, this is the wrong decision. Then I hear, disturbingly, that the cabinet was not consulted. Members of Parliament, representing about 45% of Canadians, were not consulted. The senators were not consulted. This is reflective of just how this decision was taken.

Does the member share my view of the problem with the decision-making process for arriving at this very bizarre decision?

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank the member from Prince Edward Island.

I completely agree with him. On the whim of a few decision makers who head up the party—which says a lot about how the party operates—the government decided to make changes to an internationally recognized institution that was working well. It did not just throw a wrench in Statistics Canada's works; it sabotaged the whole machine. Its goal? If this terrible decision is not reversed, scientific method will no longer shape the data arising from the next census. As such, the government will not have to recognize the data.

If this decision remains in place, the Integrated Public Use Microdata Series International will no longer accept Statistics Canada's data because the data will not be scientific. This is a step backward. The Conservatives think they are making progress, but walking backward or just moving their legs around does not mean progress. They are moving backward. They are taking away the tools. They are taking away an essential tool in an undemocratic fashion. They are doing this for purely ideological reasons. They did not bother to think before acting, and they have no respect for science.

[Dean Del Mastro, Conservative, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Canadian Heritage]

Mr. Speaker, I made the point earlier that this has to do with whether we respect people's right to privacy and whether we should ask them to provide information about themselves or whether we should tell them, and in fact threaten them, to provide private information about themselves.

It was interesting that a little while ago the Liberal member quoted former U.S. President Kennedy, who said, “Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country”. It is funny that the quotation starts with the word “ask”. Respect your citizens.

Does the member believe that we are here to serve the people or that the people are out there to serve us? Should we be telling them, by order of law, how they should live their lives? Do they have a right to privacy or not? I think that is a fundamental question. Do we believe in the Charter of Rights and Freedoms or only when it is convenient?

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the member is an excellent speaker, but what a load of demagoguery. What the Reform Conservatives are doing is taking away an essential tool that is supported by a long list of scientists. I know that scientists are not very important to the Conservatives. All they care about is taking power, getting a majority and practising obscurantism.

There were only six complaints about the last census and 50 or so complaints about the last two censuses from Canadians and Quebeckers. The government is doing away with an essential tool. It wants to throw it in the garbage for the sake of an ideology that ignores what the public needs in favour of a political agenda, instead of helping the public.

That is shameful. I am ashamed of them.

[Dan McTeague, Liberal, Pickering—Scarborough East, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I will be sharing my time with my able colleague, the hon. member for Ottawa—Vanier.

I never thought I would have to give a speech like this or have a discussion like this in the House of Commons. Obviously, in the quiet days of summer, just after Parliament ended, the Minister of Industry decided, in his infinite wisdom, to simply change what had worked for the country and was our jewel in the crown as far as the acquisition and aggregation of information goes. In one simple statement, the long form census that was so necessary to the fundamental understanding of who we are was gone, or at least it was proposed that it be eliminated.

In its place, we heard, in a rather pathetic excuse from the Conservative government, would be a voluntary form.

What we knew at the time was that the government actually had accurate, reliable, precise, honest information to suggest that what it was going to propose as an alternative was, in fact, a very poor cousin to the information it had.

I will go very quickly through this, because in the 10 minutes I have I want to come to the point of what we are really discussing here: the dumbing down of Canada by the Conservative government. What it does not want to do is provide information to Canadians and allow Canada to have a better understanding of itself.

I wish that some of the government members would understand that there is some wisdom in Yogi Berra's saying that if you do not know where you are going, chances are that you are going to wind up somewhere else.

The Conservative government, in what I consider an act of statistical vandalism, has thrown Canada into uncertainty so that people around this country will understand less about who we are. I am not talking about people who happen to support particular programs or who happen to have a political agenda to grind. I am talking about people who come from all walks of life. Mr. Speaker, you know them. They are the police associations in my riding.