Debates of Sept. 28th, 2010

Presence in Gallery

[The Speaker, Liberal, Peter Milliken]

It is my pleasure today to welcome to the House of Commons several athletes, coaches, and managers associated with Canada's Special Olympics team. They are gathered from across the country for Hill Day, an opportunity to meet one-on-one with senators and members of Parliament.

On behalf of all members, I congratulate them on their achievements.

[Some hon. members]

Hear, hear!

Notice of Motion

[Jim Flaherty, Conservative, Minister of Finance]

Mr. Speaker, pursuant to Standing Order 83(1), I wish to table a notice of ways and means motion to implement certain provisions of the budget tabled in Parliament on March 4 and other measures.

I ask that an order of the day be designated for consideration of the motion.

The House resumed consideration of the motion.

Opposition Motion--Long form census

[The Speaker, Liberal, Peter Milliken]

When the matter was last before the House, the hon. member for Pickering—Scarborough East had the floor for questions and comments consequent upon his speech. I therefore call for questions and comments.

The hon. member for Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I have high regard for the member for Pickering—Scarborough East. However, I was shocked at the speech that I heard regarding the census. I do not know if I was shocked more by the lack of substance or the basketfuls of hyperbole that he used.

One of the things that amazes me in this debate is how often the members of the opposition conveniently leave out two important facts: first, the mandatory short form is still in place; second, this form accounts for a great majority of the information needed for public policy.

They also leave out the fact that the long form is still available in a voluntary format, unless, of course, they want to brush it aside and discredit it.

I will ask this one question of the member. Could he please table in the House evidence that a voluntary survey has less efficacy than one that is forced by statute? He must have that evidence. He speaks so confidently about it.

[Dan McTeague, Liberal, Pickering—Scarborough East, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I would gladly take up the opportunity for the hon. member, who has not yet spent the necessary time on this topic, but soon will, I hope, as a new member of the industry committee. I wish him well there. But I am more than willing to give him the evidence.

I am pleased to present for the hon. member's perusal documents from 355 organizations, groups, and individuals from across this country who speak with great breadth and integrity on this matter. I would have no difficulties in providing the hon. member a copy. In fact, I will be so generous as to suggest that we provide it to all members.

However, let me remind the hon. member that he knows, statisticians know, the evidence is clear, what he is proposing derives from his fear of what exists. The question is, why does the member for Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale believe it is important to throw away good information? Does he not believe in an honest, factual version of what Canada looks like?

[Paul Szabo, Liberal, Mississauga South, ON]

Mr. Speaker, on September 10, four former top bureaucrats, namely, Mel Cappe, David Dodge, Alex Himelfarb, and Ivan Fellegi, a former Statistics Canada head, wrote to the Prime Minister, asserting that the government's decision to make the long form census voluntary has damaged Statistics Canada's credibility and international standing, and that in their view the chief statistician, not the minister, should have the power and independence to decide on the methodology and techniques that the agency needs to do its job.

The government's response was, and this is a quote from the communications officer of the Prime Minister's Office: “The fundamental principle we are defending here is the right of citizens not to divulge personal information and the government not to threaten [them] with jail and fines”.

In my view, this is a curious response to a constitutional obligation to undertake a regular census.

I wonder if the hon. member would care to comment on the government's attitude toward the Constitution.

[Dan McTeague, Liberal, Pickering—Scarborough East, ON]

Mr. Speaker, members will recall that in my speech, which obviously was not listened to, or perhaps understood, by some members of the Conservative Party, I said that there may be constitutional questions related to the importance, or rather the requirement, of having an accurate and proper census to take evidence of what this country is.

I am not surprised to hear some grumbling from the benches on the government side. This is the same grumbling we heard after the government pushed a number of significant people out of their positions because they happened to challenge it.

We have to ensure the integrity of the system.

I wish my Conservatives colleagues on the other side would recognize that there is a difference between their own ideological peccadilloes and the importance of maintaining credible information for the country. There is a difference between the two. They ought to be separated. My hon. colleague from Mississauga South is indeed correct. They must be separated.

Given the track record of the current government of damaging, destroying, and removing things that are valuable to this country, I think the time has come to ensure that there is independence for statisticians in this country.

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to speak to the debate today because I had a wonderful opportunity all day yesterday and half the day today to be a spectator at a presentation that was being held not far from here in one of the two courts in the Supreme Court of Canada building, the Federal Court of Canada. The Fédération des communautés francophones et acadienne was there to present its application to have the government's decision announced in August overturned and to request an order to make the census form that the government is proposing to send out next year mandatory and not voluntary.

I will mainly focus on the official languages aspect of this unfortunate decision by the government to drop the long form census—as it is proposing to do—which was mandatory, and to make it voluntary, although sent to more people. The people from Statistics Canada have testified by affidavit. I could provide the hon. member opposite with a quote from the testimony of these people who, without reservation, have said that information obtained by Statistics Canada, government agencies and all those using such a survey, would be less valid and reliable than information obtained through a mandatory census form.

The Fédération des communautés francophones et acadienne is focusing mainly on the Charter of Rights and Freedoms and the Official Languages Act, part VII, subsections 41(1) and 41(2) in particular. Some colleagues in the House will recall that it was in 2005 that we made the last changes to this section of the act that I will now read in order to give everyone some context in this debate.

Subsection 41(1) of the Official Languages Act states that:

The Government of Canada is committed to (a) enhancing the vitality of the English and French linguistic minority communities in Canada and supporting and assisting their development; and (b) fostering the full recognition and use of both English and French in Canadian society.

Subsection 41(2), entitled, “Duty of federal institutions”, reads:

Every federal institution has the duty to ensure that positive measures are taken for the implementation of the commitments under subsection (1). For greater certainty, this implementation shall be carried out while respecting the jurisdiction and powers of the provinces.

I mentioned that these amendments were passed in 2005, when we were in power. I was the minister responsible. And I must say to my colleagues across the way that they supported these amendments. Also, I thought that they had understood the meaning of what they had approved at that time.

I would like to make a few comments about the intent of the lawmaker at that time. The commissioner of official languages at that time, Dyane Adam, made a wonderful comparison that I would like to share. The lawmaker's main intention was to create an obligation for all agencies and departments in the Government of Canada.

I would like to remind the members that this section was added to the Official Languages Act in 1988 under the Mulroney government. But it was mainly seen as a wish and not an obligation. It was not binding. In 2005, as a result of Bill S-3, which was introduced by my predecessor in the House, Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier, we jointly amended the Official Languages Act to create this obligation and make it binding on all agencies and departments. I want to highlight that this law, which was implemented within a year, applies to all departments and agencies.

At that time, Ms. Adam made a comparison to help people understand the new obligation that had been created. It was an obligation to act positively because we were dealing with positive measures. She compared it to a trip to the doctor. If someone goes to the doctor, the doctor is obligated to act and must, therefore, make a diagnosis. And that combines the government's obligation to undertake consultations and to obtain the most accurate information possible. With this diagnosis, the doctor can then prescribe something—medication, an operation or something else. There is an obligation to act. There is no guarantee of results, but there is an obligation to act on the diagnosis.

With the adoption of this section of the act, Government of Canada departments and agencies now have the obligation to act based on consultation, that is, based on information which, it is hoped, is as accurate as possible. Hence the responsibility of one agency in particular, Statistics Canada, to do what it must to obtain accurate information. This was part of the basis for the application of the Fédération des communautés francophones et acadienne to the court. I am anxious to see the court's decision. It seems that the decision may come fairly quickly given the circumstances. I will be watching. I understand the sub judice convention. I spoke about the facts and did not venture into interpretation. I will leave that to the courts, and that is as it should be.

I was listening to the presentation by the government's lawyers this morning. They argued that because there are no regulations there is no obligation with respect to the census. That argument is somewhat disturbing because we must not forget the legal hierarchy where the Constitution is at the top, followed by laws, and after the laws, there may be regulations, and after regulations, there may be guidelines for application. Just because there are no regulations does not mean that the law is null and void and that the responsibilities of the agencies and the government with respect to the law are diminished. That seems to be the gist of what they were arguing this morning. I look forward to the court's decision and eventually, if there is an appeal, the final decision. In fact, it may be appropriate at that time for lawmakers to adjust the act by regulation or amendments so that the intention is not misunderstood.

I would also like to say that the government's decision is unfortunate because if it is not reversed, it would affect everything that has been done since the last census, the post-census studies. This point is worth our consideration. A post-census study does not just have to do with official languages, but that is certainly one important aspect. For example, not too long ago, I went to visit my friends in the Eastern Townships. They were nice; they gave me a study, in both languages, on the anglophone community in the Eastern Townships.

It is “Profile of the English-speaking Community in the Eastern Townships”, second edition. They were quite proud to give me this document, because it is a document that gives a very precise profile of their communities and their membership. It would be rather disastrous if we could not produce this kind of document and profile anymore, which would be a consequence of not having the mandatory long form census.

I have tried to understand the government's intention here, and all I can conclude—and we all agree, at least those who bothered to try to understand—that as soon as a census becomes optional, the wealthy will be less inclined to fill it out in full, and so will the poor and the most vulnerable. So we will have a less-than-complete portrait of society and its inequalities. The only thing I can figure is that by abolishing this mandatory census the government is trying to camouflage, conceal or hide all of the inequalities in our society. Then it would feel less pressure to create programs to eliminate these inequalities, or at least to reduce them. I find that deplorable.

Now it is very clear that the government is not presenting us with a hidden agenda. Their agenda is clear, and Canadians have to deal with it.

[Claude Gravelle, NDP, Nickel Belt, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I have a question for my colleague from Ottawa—Vanier about the census.

I come from a francophone community. A few weeks ago, I went to Saskatchewan to visit with francophones. This week, I visited Acadians in New Brunswick. It is clear that many francophones in this country live outside Quebec.

Can the member tell me how francophones outside Quebec will be affected by the fact that there will no longer be a long form census?

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Mr. Speaker, one of the documents the FCFA presented to the court is an affidavit signed by Ms. Bender, assistant chief statistician at Statistics Canada, who clearly states that the results obtained from a survey like the one proposed by the government would be less reliable than the results obtained from the mandatory long form, especially for small groups, including minority francophone communities and certain minority anglophone communities.

Thus, the impact is more serious for the communities my colleague is talking about, which is why the FCFA felt it had to go before the courts to exercise its constitutional and legal rights as recognized by the House, or by both Houses and the Parliament of Canada.

[David Anderson, Conservative, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Natural Resources and for the Canadian Wheat Board]

Mr. Speaker, I do not know, in all the time I have been here, that I have ever heard so much rubbish and fear-mongering as I have today. I have to say that.

The hon. member opposite made a statement. Maybe it was changed in translation, but it came across as, “if it is not overturned, all the data will be lost”. That is one of the ridiculous statements and positions we have heard all day.

When we were at committee, we actually had one professional pollster who came to committee. He was asked if it was possible to gather this data and have good data from a voluntary survey. He said that of course it was. He did this for a living and said that of course it was possible. So everything we have heard today is actually fear-mongering.

The one reality that does exist is that people have been intimidated by this process in the past. I want to give one example from my riding, because the people called me. I have had dozens of people call me, but this one stood out, because it was a farmer who was being called about the farm survey. He was getting cancer treatments. He told the Statistics Canada person on the phone that he was getting treatments and needed to be left alone. Rather than do that, they started calling from 7 o'clock in the morning until 11 o'clock at night. He could not convince them to leave him alone until we finally intervened and asked Statistics Canada to stop calling. That is the kind of thing that has happened.

I know other people who have been threatened with fines and jail time if they do not fill out the long form census. I have had many calls in my riding. This has been one of the sources of contention in my riding for a number of years. People in my riding are telling me that they are very thankful.

It is interesting that the other side is more than willing to represent special interest groups, but those groups are often at odds with the real people who are sick and tired of being told what they have to do. It really reveals a difference between this side of the House and the coalition. The main difference is whether we seriously think we should be invading people's privacy or not. On this side we do not think so.

The questions they want to force people to answer include how many bedrooms they have in their houses or what time they leave for work in the morning. Those are the kinds of things they are willing to go to the wall for. We think it is reasonable to let people answer these questions voluntarily. We know that Canadians will do that. They will stand up. They love and respect their country. They will take care of these issues.

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I did not say that. Perhaps there was a problem with the interpretation. I will confirm that. I did not say that all the information accumulated so far would be lost. However, the usefulness of that information could be considerably reduced because the continuity would be broken. I am not the one who says so; professional statisticians and historians said so repeatedly this summer before the Standing Committee on Industry, Science and Technology.

The member can try to put words in people's mouths, but he will not succeed in my case. I know what I said and I would be willing to do so anytime, anywhere. As for the issue of the threat of imprisonment, he can repeat that all he likes, but on this side of the House, we agree it should be removed. So I do not understand his problem. We simply have to get rid of it. Besides, if he does not want to do it, we will; we will remove prison sentences. There is a big difference between that and deciding not to ask Canadians for information. I wonder if the government would be willing to let Revenue Canada do the same. I doubt it.

[Mike Wallace, Conservative, Burlington, ON]

Mr. Speaker, it is my pleasure to rise today to take part in this important discussion we are having on the revision of the 2011 census. In particular, I would like to discuss where official language questions sit within the new 2011 census. However, first I want to say a few words about the history of the census, because it helps put the recent events into context.

Since it was first conducted in 1666 by Canada's first official statistician, Jean Talon, the census has provided a portrait of our people and the communities in which we live. At that time, the census tallied a grand total of 3,215 inhabitants and recorded age, sex, marital status, and occupation. This information was used to help plan and develop the colony of New France, and it set the stage for succeeding governments to use statistical information to guide decision-making.

In 1871, the first national census occurred, following which the constitution required that a census be taken every tenth year thereafter. In that year, information was collected on housing stock, armaments, livestock, crops, buildings, churches, grist mills, firearms, race, religion, and ethnic origin. The main goal of this national census was to determine the appropriate representation by population in the new Parliament.

Let us move forward, a full 70 years later, to 1941, by which time data collection was becoming more sophisticated and comprehensive. By 1956, rapid growth in our population and agriculture promoted the need for benchmarks at five-year intervals to provide a more accurate basis for annual statistics. It was that year that the first national quinquennial census was conducted. In addition, for the first time, television was used to encourage Canadians to fill out the census. Again, the passage of time led to revisions in our census-taking methods. Accordingly, the 1971 census introduced more innovations than any of its predecessors. In fact, it is only since 1971 that Canadians have completed the questionnaires themselves rather than give oral answers to a door-to-door Stats Can interviewer.

Also, 1971 was the first year of the long form census. The short form was distributed to a sample of Canadian households covering the basic population, and it asked nine housing questions. The long form went to the remaining households and contained the same questions as the short form plus 50 additional questions dealing with a wide variety of socio-economic matters, which greatly expanded the scope and intent of the census from what it had been in prior years.

In 2006, as more and more Canadians gained access to the Internet, households across the country were offered the convenience of completing their questionnaires online.

That, my colleagues, is the briefest of highlights from 360 years of census history in Canada. As a country, we have grown from 3,215 inhabitants to a nation of more than 33 million.

The 2011 version will continue the tradition of earlier censuses. It will continue to paint a picture of the people living in Canada. We have refined the collection methodology and at the same time are making the process less intrusive, less coercive, and easier to complete. In short, in 2011 the census has once again been revised and updated to suit the times, as it has been many times in the past.

The long form census will now be made voluntary and the threats of jail time or heavy fines will be removed.

It may also interest the House to know the questions in the 2011 national household survey are exactly the same as what would have appeared in the mandatory long form census.

The government does not dispute that we need solid, basic demographic information about Canada and Canadians. Clearly this has been the purpose of the census for many years and we feel that this necessary information will be collected on the census short form rather than on the long form introduced in the 1970s. With the existing distribution of the national household survey going to so many millions of households and with the short form being sent to 100% of the households with the same demographic and language questions that the 2006 census covered, we are confident that the 2011 version will continue to provide vital planning information for governments and other users of census data.

The debate before us today is not about the data. The debate is about the differences, and most important, the contrasting positions between the opposition and the government, a difference that could not be more pronounced.

The government believes we must strike a fair balance between the need for information and the personal privacy rights of Canadians. Further, we strongly believe it is unacceptable that an agent of the Government of Canada uses the threat of jail or fines to gather that information.

The opposition coalition has made it clear that they do not care about those concerns. They choose instead to demand that Canadians provide detailed information on over 40 pages of questions whether they want to or not. Under their rules, data at all costs trump the personal rights of Canadians. The opposition cannot have fully thought through their position, though, because I cannot think of any member of the House who could honestly tell a constituent to fill in a form against his or her will or go to jail.

I have to assume that we are all here today debating the invasion of Canadians privacy for nothing more than reasons of pure partisanship. I would think those we represent would expect that we could do something much more productive with our time, perhaps finding more ways to get more Canadians into jobs, or working harder on pulling Canada out of the recession.

On that note I would like to address concerns about how the government is able to comply with the obligations under the Official Languages Act. First and foremost, as has been said, the government is committed to providing usable and useful data that can meet user needs. As hon. members know, to address any official language concerns the government has added two additional questions to the short form. I can assure the House that all questions relating to official languages asked in the 2006 census will be maintained in the 2011 version, including knowledge of official languages, mother tongue and languages spoken at home. Of course, the government, in all its actions on this matter, remains fully committed to taking into account the priorities and any concerns of the Office of the Commissioner of Official Languages.

To meet both the spirit and the letter of the law, the minister announced in August the addition of two language questions in the census questionnaire to meet the requirements of the Official Languages Act.

The following questions were approved by order in council and published in the Canada Gazette on August 21:

Question 7 of the 2011 census reads:

Can this person speak English or French well enough to conduct a conversation?

Question 8(a) reads:

What language does this person speak most often at home?

Question 8(b) reads:

Does this person speak any other languages on a regular basis at home?

Question 9 reads:

What is the language that this person first learned at home in childhood and still understands?

These questions together will ensure the government's compliance with the Official Languages Act. This includes providing services to and communicating with the public in both official languages, supporting the development of official language minority communities, and fostering the full recognition and the use of English and French in Canadian society.

Of course, these questions on the 2011 census go beyond the mere meaning of legislative requirements. The answers to these questions will provide the government with key official language demographics throughout Canada.

In that regard, I would be remiss if I did not remind my hon. colleagues that, just as the mandatory long form did before it, the national household survey will also have a question on the language most often and readily used in the workplace. The point is that between the census and the national household survey we will be gathering essentially the same official language information as we did in 2006.

The government is fully committed to the notion that the vitality of the official language minority community is fundamentally important to the cultural mosaic that is Canada. To back up these words, we are proud of our unparalleled investment of $1.1 billion to support those communities through the road map for linguistic duality initiative.

It seems to me that through these actions we will be in a position to provide the sort of information that stakeholder language and cultural groups find most valuable.

The long and the short of it is that the government has a clear vision with respect to supporting and developing official language minority communities and promoting our two official languages to all Canadians.

Part of that support is through the data that has been, and will continue to be, collected via the census and other sources. We believe the 2011 census and the national household survey, along with the other survey sources from Statistics Canada, will continue to play this important role.

I would ask that all members encourage their constituents to complete the census when they receive it next May, because ultimately it will provide us with the information we need to build a better future.

A concurrence motion was brought forward by the NDP on Friday of last week and I had the opportunity to speak to that motion. I do not know why the coalition does not get its act together to find out who is moving what and when so we are not debating the same thing twice within a five-day period, but that is fine.

I want to go over a couple of points.

I made the point that according to the definition of a census in law, a census has to carry penalties. All of us in the House agree about removing the jail time. No one has ever served jail time.

The other part is the issue of the fine. For it to be defined as a census, it has to carry a mandatory requirement and that mandatory requirement needs some sort of punishment or it is not mandatory but voluntary, and that is all we are doing.

There is a lot of misinformation that the long form census has now disappeared. It has not disappeared. We are making the long form census voluntary, because there was a requirement for penalties. To make sure that we get a good return on the voluntary form, we are increasing the number of Canadians who will receive it by 30%.

I am a bit of a numbers person. We are going from about 2.5 million to 4.5 million people who will receive the long form. Even the statisticians and the people who appeared before committee said we would probably get about a 70% return rate. That is 800,000 more returns than we have now under the mandatory system.

People argue that we might get more back but they are worried about the quality. I disagree. I believe Canadians understand that providing us with information through the voluntary system, through the national household survey, will help with the development of public policy. It will help social service communities and business communities.

Canadians will come to the plate, whether they are in the upper income brackets or receivers of social services. They will fill out the form. There is no evidence that there will be a skew on who will fill it out and who will not. I am confident in Canadians, and as I said in my speech, I ask every single member of Parliament to encourage Canadians in their riding to voluntarily fill out the form when they get it.

To be clear, the way the law stands now, if one does not fill out the form, under the mandatory system, one is facing a fine. Let us assume that there would be no jail time, although there is the threat there; one would face a fine. One of the questions on which a person would be facing a fine is about nationality, where one's parents were born or where one comes from.

Here is one of the questions on which I do not understand why the opposition members want to make it the law to fill out the form. The question asks what is the person's religion. It does not care whether that religion is practised but what the religion is. Maybe the person is Anglican and his wife is Roman Catholic. There is a long list of religions, such as Lutheran, Buddhist, Hindu, Sikh. What if individual Canadians feel that religion is a private matter between them and their god? I do not think the Government of Canada needs to know what a person's religion is or whether that religion is practised. Under the present system, if one refuses to fill it out, that could carry a fine because it is a mandatory census.

All we are doing on this side of the House is saying it is a question that should be answered voluntarily by Canadians. We ask them to do it because it does provide information, but it is their private information and not a government requirement.

A constituent of mine, in a previous census, where it asked for nationality and one of the options was native Canadian, put native Canadian. His wife got a phone call from Statistics Canada asking for his Indian card number. She said her husband was not an Indian. Statistics Canada said that he ticked that off and wanted his number. She said she had been married to him for 40 years and should know whether he was an aboriginal Canadian or not. His grandparents were born in Canada. His great-grandparents were born in Canada. Statistics Canada called him back and said to him that he had marked off native Canadian and if he did not have an Indian status card number he could face a fine or jail time for not giving the proper information. They negotiated and he changed his answer because he was not going to face a fine over it, but he made his point.

Do we have to have employees of Statistics Canada calling individuals and threatening them with fines and jail time to fill out these questions? I say not, the Conservatives say not, and I think most Canadians say not.

[Michael Savage, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

Madam Speaker, the member spoke about the concern he has in regard to asking questions about what religion somebody might be. Yet the religious organizations in Canada, such as the Anglican Church, the Canadian Jewish Congress, the Canadian Conference of Catholic Bishops, the Evangelical Fellowship, and the United Church, are all demanding that the census be used.

I will quote Bernie Farber, the CEO of the Canadian Jewish Congress, who said that every Jewish federation in the country signed a letter to the Prime Minister asking that he reverse the census decision. Mr. Farber said:

Without that demographic data, we just can't plan properly.

Bishop Pierre Morissette, president of the Canadian Conference of Catholic Bishops, said about the long form census:

This is one of the only ways in which we, at the national, regional and diocesan levels, can gain knowledge of the demographics and identify the geographic areas where our services are required

The churches are saying that they need this data. One of the ways churches help many people is by helping those who need help the most, the disadvantaged. That brings me to people with disabilities, who are very concerned about this.

Does the member think he knows more about the needs of vulnerable Canadians and the needs of Canadian churches than the most vulnerable themselves and the churches themselves?

[Mike Wallace, Conservative, Burlington, ON]

Madam Speaker, the churches are asking to make sure that they have the information.

If we want to be honest with them, I would say we are sending it out to 30% more Canadians. We are expecting a return rate of 70% instead of 95%. I question that the 95% return rate was because there was the threat of jail time and fines. I think the return rate was 95% because most Canadians thought it was the right thing to do, not because of the threat.

My response to the churches is we are going to get them more responses and they will be as good in terms of quality. The churches will have more information on which to base their decisions as to where they provide their services. It is not a bad thing.

The survey is not disappearing. The long form census questions are not disappearing. They are still being asked. The only difference is that we are asking Canadians to volunteer the information. They will not face jail time. They will not face fines. It is voluntary.

It will be quality information. The churches will still be able to make quality and quantity decisions on where they provide services.

[Claude Gravelle, NDP, Nickel Belt, ON]

Madam Speaker, the hon. member in his opening remarks said that it is not about data; it is about differences between the opposition parties. I would like to correct the hon. member. It is about data. That is all it is about. It is about data.

One of the questions the respondent did not like was what time the individual leaves for work in the morning. That question is not relevant to me, but it may be relevant to municipalities when it comes to public transportation planning.

The member mentioned the information regarding the number of bedrooms in a person's house. That too is important for the municipalities if they are planning rental housing.

I think the government is concerned about safeguarding privacy. I would like to quote one of the government members. He said:

Statistics Canada has taken a number of important safeguards to protect the privacy and confidentiality of Census responses.

That is a quote from the member for Beauce.

I would like the hon. member to tell me, if privacy was not an issue before, why is it now?

[Mike Wallace, Conservative, Burlington, ON]

Madam Speaker, privacy is important to all Canadians. It is becoming increasingly so with the onslaught of new technologies. We can look at the role our Privacy Commissioner has played in the Facebook issue. She has made a significant contribution to privacy issues around the world. Privacy is an issue.

Where the questioner is wrong is that those questions, which were not in my speech but I am happy to speak to them, such as about the number of bedrooms in a person's home and how long it takes to get to work, still exist. We are not getting rid of those questions. The form is exactly the same as the long form, but it will go to more people. We will have more data. We will have more responses. Canadians will fill it out because it is the right thing to do. They are the exact same questions. There is no difference in the questions.

What is being expressed by a number of opposition members is a fallacy. The questions are exactly the same.

[Joe Preston, Conservative, Elgin—Middlesex—London, ON]

Madam Speaker, my colleague is right and he keeps reinforcing the point. We keep hearing from the other side that it cannot be done.

I live in a riding where volunteerism plays a large role. Each and every day volunteers come out and do something, whether they are volunteer firemen, volunteers who coach little league or hockey, or volunteers who put on the fairs, run the legion, name it. That is volunteerism in Canada.

Members on the other side are suggesting that we cannot get this information voluntarily. That is what we are suggesting. Instead of hitting people with a stick, we are going to ask them to do what is right for Canada, do what is right for their city. We are going to ask that they give us the information voluntarily.

Do you think you will have any trouble voluntarily getting the information in Burlington?

[The Acting Speaker, NDP, Denise Savoie]

I would ask all members to address their comments to the Chair.

The hon. member for Burlington.

[Mike Wallace, Conservative, Burlington, ON]

Madam Speaker, in my experience as a municipal councillor, I found the people of Burlington to be engaged in public policy. The return rates on our voluntary surveys at the city of Burlington and at the region of Halton were tremendous. We would get good information. Someone said at committee that we would not know where to build the fire halls or we would not know how big the pipes should be because the census would not be accurate. That is an absolute fallacy. We know where to put the fire halls because the census tells us where people are living and where they might live. However, that was only a small chunk of the information that the municipality used in planning communities.

We will get the responses. I believe in Canadians. We will have to promote it, but we will do the promotion. We all have a responsibility to do the promotion. We will get accurate information. We will continue to provide the public services that this country demands and which Canadians are receiving today.

[Scott Brison, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

Madam Speaker, our party is very concerned about human rights. We are the party of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. Many international organizations are very concerned about human rights.

I would like to ask the hon. member how many letters has he received from Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch demanding the release of these prisoners of conscience from Canadian penitentiaries, these prisoners of conscience who simply refused to fill out their long form census? How many blood-stained letters has he received from these prisoners of conscience in Canadian prisons?

Perhaps most importantly, how many Canadians have actually been jailed for not filling out the long form census? The member referred to that as the compelling reason, that we have to free these people from Canadian penitentiaries for their failure as prisoners of conscience to fill out the long form census. How many people have actually been put in Canadian penitentiaries for this violation?

[Mike Wallace, Conservative, Burlington, ON]

Madam Speaker, I am glad to get an opportunity to respond to this question. As I said in my speech and in answer to other questions, it is my understanding that the jail term will disappear, as has been agreed to by all parties. However, for the form to be defined as a census, it still requires some sort of punishment and that includes fines.

I am looking forward to working with the hon. member, who is his party's new finance critic. He used to be a Tory, but he flipped sides and went to the other side. It will be very interesting to see what his financial acumen is now that he is a Liberal.

[John McCallum, Liberal, Markham—Unionville, ON]

Madam Speaker, I have been in politics almost 10 years and never ever have I participated in such a ridiculous debate. It is ridiculous in the sense that the government is proposing that we go with ignorance over knowledge, ideology over reason. There are 355 organizations and individuals who seldom enter politics denouncing this move. The Conservatives talk about jail time when not one Canadian has ever gone to jail for not completing the census. The Liberal bill will remove that possibility even as a theory.

There are people from across the land in every kind of occupation and profession professing that this long form census data is crucial to our understanding of our country, whether we are in business, whether it is a provincial government, a municipal government or whatever. It makes absolutely no sense and the government keeps changing its arguments.

An hon. gentleman who actually worked with me as the deputy minister, Munir Sheikh, a great Canadian, a great public servant, had no option but to resign as chief statistician after his advice to the government was, to put it charitably, mischaracterized.

I will now talk a little bit about the economic angle, but I am just astounded as a Canadian in politics that this issue should ever have come to the floor of the House of Commons because it makes absolutely no sense. It is counter to what is good for Canada. The Conservatives have no arguments to the contrary, so I am a bit floored, I must admit.

Let me now turn to some more detail on the economic side. For example, we have Mark Carney, a highly respected Governor of the Bank of Canada, whose job it is to set interest rates and conduct monetary policy for the good of the Canadian economy. He himself has said that the absence of long form census data will impede his ability to conduct monetary policy for the good of the Canadian economy. To quote him, he said, “There is a non-trivial range of data that could be affected”. Then according to a Globe and Mail story, when asked which data could be affected, Mr. Carney said, “That's part of what we're going to have to work through. Obviously a series of surveys on the household side, and the potential implications for the labour force survey”.

Here is the man appointed by the Conservatives, and in this case I would say a very good appointment, to conduct the monetary policy of the nation saying that his job for the good of the Canadian economy will be negatively impacted by this ridiculous, stupid decision by the government to abandon the long form compulsory census. That is just the tip of the iceberg. We have 355 solid organizations confirming how ridiculous this move is.

Let me just say one thing about statistics. Those on the other side do not seem to understand the basic principle of statistics. We do not get more accurate information by increasing the numbers. It is not a question of how many respond; it is a question of which type of person responds. The experts are unanimous that there are certain classes of Canadian citizens, certain types of people, perhaps new Canadians because they have trouble with the language or poorer Canadians, who will not answer and therefore will be unrepresented. We could have 10 million Canadians answering, but if they are disproportionately of the, shall I say upper or middle class or parliamentarian types who are not in these negatively affected groups, we will get a disproportionate answer and we will not get accurate data. That is what all the statisticians are telling us. That is what the government either does not understand or chooses to ignore.

This affects not only the Bank of Canada but businesses that are making investments, such as a business wanting to set up a new Tim Hortons or a grocery store, they want to know where people live. These businesses are the backbone of our economy. However, they will no longer have accurate information in terms of demographics and where people live, the incomes of people and all of those things needed to conduct their business in an effective way. It is bad for business and bad for the Bank of Canada and the management of the Canadian economy.

I will give the House a few more quotes. The thing is beyond the pale. We really do not need more quotes because it is so obvious but since we are debating this issue I will read more quotes.

Craig Alexander, president of the Canadian Association for Business Economics and the chief economist at TD Bank, said, “...the census is the single most important piece of information we get.” They will no longer have it thanks to the anti-diluvium attitude of the Conservative government.

The Nunavut finance minister said:

We depend largely on information that they gather to help us shape our policies, programs that we deliver in Nunavut in areas such as the homeless issue, health, education.

Nunavut will no longer have this information.

The Association des statisticiens et statisticiennes du Québec, which has more than 110 professional statisticians in its ranks, is in favour of reinstating the mandatory long form questionnaire for the 2011 census.

The statisticians of Quebec are hardly a left-wing, subversive socialist gang who the government should be afraid of. These are people who do not usually get involved in politics and they are typical of those who are speaking out against this ridiculous decision on the long form census.

John Winter, president and CEO of the B.C. Chamber of Commerce, again not a socialist subversive to the best of my knowledge, said:

Having dependable and quality data which achieves a high response rate to questions covered by the long form is vital for business analysis and policy development. Businesses, regardless of size and sector, base their planning and decisions on dependable census data. This determines how they will develop initiatives and allocate resources to remain successful.

That goes back to my example with Tim Hortons.

Madam Speaker, I forgot to say that I will be sharing my time with the member for Mississauga—Streetsville.

I could go on forever with quotes but I will give the House just one more.

Marni Cappe, president of the Canadian Institute of Planners, said:

The mandatory framework of data collection under the current Census system provides a validity and comprehensiveness that is not likely able to be matched by a voluntary system....

I have been in politics almost 10 years and I have never seen a more ridiculous action taken by any government than this action on the long form census. It destroys the quality of data needed by businesses, by governments, by NGOs and by others to run our country effectively. They will be paying more money to get weaker data. The notion of people being sent to jail is totally ridiculous because no one has ever been sent to jail. The Liberal member's private member's bill would eliminate, even in theory, the possibility of jail time.

I see absolutely no reason for this and we on the Liberal side will work as hard as we can to get this motion through in order to block this anti-diluvium dinosaur move by the Conservative government.