Debates of Sept. 28th, 2010

Opposition Motion--Long form census

[Bruce Stanton, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

Madam Speaker, I want to bring to the member's attention the issue of quality of the data, which has been talk about all day.

I had a look at some of the testimony before the industry committee on July 27 and in response to a question from the member for Westmount—Ville-Marie concerning a survey that Ipsos Reid had done that indicated that 19% of Canadians, if asked, would probably not participate in a volunteer survey of this sort, Darrell Bricker of Ipsos Reid pointed out that a little over 81% would. On that point he said, “But in my experience, a survey response rate of 80% is better than anything I've seen”.

This is different from what we have heard today. Here we have a professional pollster admitting that this is good quality data. I wonder if the member has something else to offer with regard to that statement.

[John McCallum, Liberal, Markham—Unionville, ON]

Madam Speaker, we have 355 solid groups opposed to this. We have one, the Fraser Institute, in favour. I think that says something.

The member's question displays a regrettable lack of statistical knowledge. We can have 80% of the people answering the form but if 80% of them are disproportionately white, middle class or upper middle class, then we leave out those who are less fortunate in society and the view of the nature of our country will be a biased one. That will serve the country badly. That is the fundamental point he does not understand.

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

Madam Speaker, the member for Markham—Unionville cited a whole number of groups across the country. He may be aware that the city of Burnaby and the city of New Westminster in my riding have both taken a stand against this gutting of the long form census. That is what it is. That is what the government is attempting to do.

What is interesting in all of this is that the Fraser Institute, as the member points out, the National Citizens Coalition and even the President of the Treasury Board have been saying that the long form census is too invasive so they will take example from countries like Finland where the government takes over the personal and confidential data file of citizens and then uses that information to create the census.

As we have heard cited here, this is really big brother gone rampant. It is administrative data, a personal file, that is taken by the government.

Does the member think that is the eventual end game of the government? The President of the Treasury Board has said that the government wants to be like Finland and take over the personal data file. Should Conservative voters be concerned about where the Conservatives are heading on this?

[John McCallum, Liberal, Markham—Unionville, ON]

That is an interesting question, Madam Speaker. What the member said is absolutely true. The Scandinavian system is much more invasive than the system under the long form census that we have. If the Treasury Board minister wants to go the way of socialist Scandinavia, so-called, does this mean that we have a Conservative big brother process? That is one theory, which the member seems to be proposing.

My preferred answer in terms of the government's motives, although I am just speculating, is that it is really just playing to the small minority of super anti-government types that are a part of the Conservative base.

[Bonnie Crombie, Liberal, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

Mr. Speaker, on behalf of the residents of Mississauga—Streetsville, I am happy to join in the discussion on the long form census.

Earlier this summer, the government announced its intent to abolish the mandatory long form census, which will compromise the accuracy and integrity of the data that Statistics Canada collects. Its rationale was that the mandatory census was overly coercive, intrusive and that no citizen should be punished with a jail term for failing to complete the form. However, according to Statistics Canada, no person has ever been sentenced to jail for failing to complete the census and a very small number of individuals have ever been fined.

Since the announcement back in June, the industry committee was recalled to hear voices and Canadians, from coast to coast to coast, came forward to express their discontent and often their visceral disagreement with this announcement.

We next witnessed the resignation of a lifelong civil servant, the director of Statistics Canada, Mr. Munir Sheikh, who could not, in good conscience, justify, rationalize or accept this policy. He knew that the data would be inaccurate and compromised.

The list of those Canadian civil servants who spoke out against this included former chief statistician, Ivan Fellegi, who celebrated 51 years as a civil servant; former PCO clerks, Mel Cappe and Alex Himelfarb; and former Governor of the Bank of Canada and finance deputy minister, David Dodge. They all urged the government to reverse its decision on the long form census.

In fact, the current governor, Mark Carney, stated that the Bank of Canada may no longer be able to rely on the data from Statistics Canada for analysis because of the proposed changes to the census. Mr. Carney said that the changes could have an impact on the quality of the research in important areas and force the bank to supplement the information with its own research. According to Mr. Carney, “There is a non-trivial range of data that could be affected”.

The central bank draws from a wealth of information about subjects, from the job market to housing and household debt, to track the economy and to help it decide whether to adjust the country's overnight lending rate. It receives that from the statistics that Statistics Canada collects.

In the face of rebuke, the response by the Minister of Industry was, “I got bigger fish to fry”, demonstrating the Conservative government's arrogance and contempt for its opponents and, in this case, for a man, Mr. Fellegi, who has dedicated his life to the service of our country for over a half-century.

In my time remaining I will discuss three issues: first, the historical basis for this vital tool; second, why it is so critically important to decision making; and last, why the decision to dismantle it is more ideologically driven than rational.

What is behind this irrational decision?

First, I will give the history of the census. The first known census to be taken was in Babylon at about 3800 BC. Not only were people counted but livestock, butter, honey, milk, wool, vegetables and weapons were also countred. The Egyptians, Chinese, and Persians all implemented a census. The Romans conducted a census every five years, including a very famous one that forced a very pregnant Mary and her carpenter husband Joseph to travel to Bethlehem to register themselves and their newborn son in 33 BC.

As most of us know, Jean Talon completed the first census in Canada, then known as New France, in 1666. He recorded age, gender, marital status and occupation. Through the years, more questions appeared. Questions of livestock, crops, buildings, churches and grist mills were added.

As Canada matured and grew, questions on race, religion and ethnic origin were also introduced. Yes, even as far back as 1710, questions of armaments and firearms also appeared. How fitting is that, given our vote on the long gun registry just last week?

Since 1666, census information has been used to collect information for the betterment of our society. It helped define our rich mosaic and create an accurate portrait of our nation and, most important, it helped us plan for the future.

Second, why collect census information at all? Quite simply, the census helped us shape our nation. If we do not have vital statistical information, then governments cannot make reliable, scientific, evidence-based, factual, efficient and cost-effective decisions to plan for our future, such as projecting the funding for our schools, our hospitals, our public transit and our police forces based on population growths, and for funding of settlement agencies based on projections of new immigrants arriving at our doorstep.

James Turk of the Canadian Association of University Teachers stated:

—we are deeply concerned about the disastrous consequences this will have for the scientific understanding of Canadian society, and for the ability to make informed decisions about social and economic policies.

The collection of data is not something to be feared. Statistics are used for creating, evaluating and monitoring federal legislation, for policies and programs, for rural communities, for ethnic communities, for women's groups, for the poor and for the disabled. It is used to collect demographic trends and information used to determine transfer and equalization payments to provinces for veterans, for health and social transfer payments, for Citizenship and Immigration to aid in the settlement of refugees and for language instruction for newcomers to support their economic, social and cultural integration into our nation and for labour market activity and income to plan Canadian pension needs, employment insurance programs and old age security.

The government's decision to eliminate the mandatory census will compromise the integrity of data and render it unreliable. Certain ethnic groups and other minority groups will be underrepresented in the data and will lose out on programs and services. Demographic trends will be missed altogether.

This decision has drawn opposition and has been widely condemned by media outlets, community groups, NGOs, not-for-profits, business groups, economists, aboriginal leaders, francophone groups, cities and municipalities. Over 350 organizations do not support making the long form census voluntary. The government stands virtually alone in its decision to proceed in its decision to proceed with abolishing the long form census.

Some of those who oppose dismantling it include: Canadian Association of Journalists, the Canadian Jewish Congress, the Evangelical Fellowship of Canada, the Anglican Church, the CD Howe Institute, Canadian Population Society, Canadian Federation of Independent Business, cities and municipalities from across the country, Canadian Marketing Association, Canadian Labour Congress, the CMA, Catholic Women's League and the Prime Minister's former adviser, Tom Flanagan from the University of Calgary.

The list goes on, but I know my time is limited so I will move on to my final and third point, which is ideology versus science and rationality. I believe the decision to abandon reason and facts stems from the government's underlying and fundamental civil libertarian views and ideology, which places the rights of the individual ahead of the collective good.

We see Conservatives cutting government programs and services all in an effort to reduce the size and capacity of government. We see them attempting to eliminate tools deemed necessary by professional law enforcement agencies, such as the gun registry, because of the perceived nuisance it causes gun owners to register their firearms.

We see the Conservatives attempting to eliminate the mandatory census because they claim that governments should not be in the bedrooms or the gun closets of the nation, that it has no right to collect data on individuals even if it is in the interests of protecting the collective good, or to create a scientific evidence-based internationally praised and accredited database for all to use.

We see the Conservatives put ideology ahead of respect for democracy and silence those who oppose them as we have witnessed with the dozens of courageous civil servants who have been fired in various departments and ministries. We see them eliminating a credible, scientific policy planning tool for all to use in the delivery of social programs, of veterans programs, of language and settlement programs.

Not knowing the facts means not having to deliver the goods and services. The Conservatives will continue to base policy on anecdotes as we saw with the rationale for building more prisons, because unreported crimes were on the rise. They base policy on ideology rather than on facts and statistics.

I am not just speaking of the elites of society, as the government House leader has suggested, but of the myriad of groups and organizations that have taken the government to task for its decision to eliminate the data generated from the mandatory long form census for planning and policy purposes.

We need to ask the government this once again. What is its true motive for cancelling the mandatory long form census? Why would it proceed with its decision in the face of opposition from every sector, every region and every level of government? The decision has been universally panned, but rather than accept the folly of their actions and adjust their policy position, the Conservatives remain headstrong, self-righteous and sanctimonious.

I will gladly stand and be counted and support this motion. I hope the Conservatives and all members of the House will do the same.

[David Anderson, Conservative, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Natural Resources and for the Canadian Wheat Board]

Madam Speaker, the member opposite is very proficient at name-calling, but her logic does not quite follow as well as her insults do.

The previous member talked about how ridiculous this debate is, and he is actually right. I do not think either one of them were at industry committee this summer when we had a professional pollster before us. We asked him if he could get this information.

[An hon. member]

A pollster?

[David Anderson, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

Madam Speaker, the member does not want to let any other members speak because she is too busy insulting them to let them have their say.

He was the one professional who was called to the industry committee, one who does this for a living. When he was asked if he could get this information, he said that he absolutely could, that this was what they did all the time. We asked him if it had to be mandatory and he said absolutely not, that there was no reason why it had to be.

One area where voluntary information is used extensively across our society is the efficacy of drugs. When drugs are approved, all the testing that is done is voluntary. The information is gathered on a voluntary basis. I do not think the opposition would be so foolish as to actually suggest that all those approvals are invalid because the information has been gathered voluntarily.

I want to address the issue of jail time. The folks opposite say that they do not like to see Canadians go to jail. We know that Statistics Canada has used that as one of the basis to intimidate people to fill out the form. If jail time is removed as a penalty, it still does not take it away because the fines are left in the legislation. If people do not want to pay the fines, they will end up in jail anyway, and—

[The Acting Speaker, NDP, Denise Savoie]

The hon. member for Mississauga—Streetsville.

[Bonnie Crombie, Liberal, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

Madam Speaker, what is really at stake is the reliability and the accuracy of the data.

If we look at a quote from the former head of Statistics Canada, Mr. Munir Sheikh, he says, “It is recognized that the quality of data collected by the voluntary survey will be lower than that of a mandatory survey”.

If we look at his assistant, Chief Statistician Rosemary Bender, she says, “The information will not be as usable for a range of objectives for which the census information will be needed”.

When we talk about punitive measures, Canadians get it. They understand how important a tool the mandatory long form census is. It is used for creating policies and programs that serve their needs: social programs, veterans programs, health programs, public transit programs, language programs. That is why we see the rate of non-compliance being so low. There has never been an imprisonment over not filling out a mandatory census. There have been only a few people fined over decades and we have had only three complaints to the Privacy Commissioner.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Madam Speaker, when the member for Mississauga—Streetsville raised the question of what was the motive of the government to go to this position, as I recall the end of the last session, the government was getting pilloried by questions about the Afghan detainees, the supremacy of Parliament.

When we watched the headlines throughout the summer, what was the point of discussion? It was the mandatory long form census. The Conservatives succeeded, much like a magician who distracts us with one hand while they pick our pocket with the other one, in deflecting the conversation away from those items that were very clearly damaging to them.

Would the member for Mississauga—Streetsville agree that is potentially what the Conservatives might have been up to?

[Bonnie Crombie, Liberal, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

Madam Speaker, if my colleague had read the Globe and Mail this morning, he would have seen a resounding headline that said, “The elimination of the long-form census defies reason”.

The census is a senseless debate. We are wasting precious House time when we should be focusing on the economic mismanagement of the Conservative government. We should be focused on the waste of spending, including $9 billion on prisons and the sole-source contract on $16 billion in fighter jets, $20 billion in corporate giveaways or $1.3 billion on a G8/G20 summit, much of it spent on glow sticks.

We should be focused on Canadian families and the rising cost of post-secondary education, keeping public health care strong and sustainable and caring for the sick and aged and our veterans, or properly funding retirement pensions or funding higher quality full-time jobs, not prisons, not fighter jets and not this senseless debate on this voluntary census survey—

[The Acting Speaker, NDP, Denise Savoie]

Before resuming debate, I would ask that if members would like to be recognized for questions and comments, they wait until they are recognized.

Resuming debate, the hon. member for Acadie—Bathurst.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Madam Speaker, I would like to share my time with my colleague from Sault Ste. Marie.

I am pleased to be speaking today about Statistics Canada's mandatory long form questionnaire. I was wondering when the long form questionnaire was introduced in Canada and why. Someone was wise enough to say that we needed to have this data. That was years ago. I am not sure how long the questionnaire has existed, but I know that it was not started just last year. It definitely was not introduced by the Conservative government, that is for sure.

For us, for minority communities, the long form survey is important, especially for the development and vitality of our communities. The FCFA has been in hearings at the Federal Court since yesterday. They were there again this morning until 12:20 p.m. An association that represents one of the largest francophone communities in the country had to go to court to ask for an injunction to keep the government from scrapping the long form survey, which would deprive organizations, and the government itself, of fundamental data.

This will deprive organizations of basic data. The long form gives them access to information that helps them tailor their services to communities and request services from the government, which is responsible for making programs available for francophones and anglophones in Quebec.

A review of parts IV, V and VII of the Official Languages Act shows that the government has certain responsibilities toward citizens. Now the government has the best excuse ever. I suppose it was trying to imitate Canada's former Prime Minister, Pierre Elliott Trudeau, who said that the state has no business in the bedrooms of the nation—

[John Baird]

Or their bathrooms.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

—or their bathrooms, as the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons just said, or their living rooms or kitchens. Or their garages either.

When Pierre Elliott Trudeau made that comment, it was for another reason. Back then, he was referring to what people did in their bedrooms, not to the number of bedrooms people had.

When the mandatory long form asks how many bedrooms people have in their houses, it is asking for a different reason. The government does not want to know the answer to that question because if it asks a family how many children it has, then finds out it has four but only two bedrooms, that means more housing has to be built. We need affordable housing. That is the government's responsibility. That is an answer it would rather not hear. It does not want to know how many bedrooms people have, because the number of bedrooms reported on the long form suggests that if a family has four children and only two bedrooms, it needs more bedrooms. The government does not want to know that people need affordable housing with four or six bedrooms. The government should tell people the truth instead of playing this negative game.

The Conservative government would like to have nothing to do with Canada or the nation. It does not want to have to help them. It wants to make laws and build prisons, and if people act up they will know what is coming to them. The Conservative government prefers that to knowing the truth and understanding what people need. Cities, mayors, academics and responsible people who see the importance of the long form census are calling on the government to make it mandatory again.

The Conservatives are saying they do not want to start jailing people who do not want to disclose details about their private lives. The people who gather this information have a responsibility, and we can trust them. There have been no cases, despite what the government says. No one has ever been sent to prison for this. It is like making a law to create a speed limit on the highway and not stopping people who are speeding because it is not bothering anyone and the government is not in the business of issuing fines or getting involved in other people's business.

We need leadership from the government. A government has to know things about the people and what is happening in the nation. We need to know how many people live in cities. How many francophones live in Alberta and what are their needs? Are there health services or not? Are there government services or not? Are there child care services or not? We need that data. How many immigrants speak both official languages? We need to know. In Montreal, how many immigrants speak French? How many immigrants speak French in Alberta, Saskatchewan, British Columbia, in all the regions?

Under part VII of the Official Languages Act, the federal government must take positive action to support the development and vitality of official language minority communities. What did the Minister of Industry state in this House? He said he added two and a half questions—that should equal a bedroom and a half—on language, which will meet the requirements of the Official Languages Act. It would be interesting to ask him if he really knows the requirements of part VII of the Official Languages Act. It would be interesting to ask him that and hear his answer.

In particular, does he understand the obligation of federal government agencies and departments to adapt their programs and services to meet the needs of those communities regarding health, the integration of immigrants, education and economic development? How is the government supposed to adapt to communities and populations if it does not know what is going on in the regions?

When we look at how the government is handling this whole issue of the mandatory long form census, it is a real joke. We have a government that is responsible for providing services to its citizens, but it does not want to know anything about them. The Conservatives believe that people will answer voluntarily and they will get all the information they need. That is really unacceptable.

How can positive measures tailored to the needs of francophone and Acadian communities be implemented without reliable data such as those obtained with the mandatory long form? Statisticians are saying that unless participation is mandatory and people are compelled to tell the truth the data will not be reliable. It is an incentive for making people fill out the questionnaire.

Instead, the government steps in and encourages people to say that they do not want to know what the government is doing, that the government does not want to force them and does not want to intrude in their private lives. If we do not want to intrude in people's private lives then, in the same vein, a police officer should not ask a driver if he has had a beer that evening. We should not be asking a driver if he smoked a joint that evening. That pertains to his private life. That is the most ridiculous argument about a person's private life. It is an excuse that permits the government to not carry out its responsibilities towards its citizens, to not provide services to francophone and anglophone communities. The government will say that it did not have the relevant data or that had different data.

Our communities are clearly telling us that they need this data. Canadians need it. Therefore, we are asking the government to change its mind. If we look around in this country—and this is what I am hearing in my riding—Canadians are wondering where the Conservative government is going with this. As usual, it is going in the wrong direction.

[Paul Szabo, Liberal, Mississauga South, ON]

Madam Speaker, I have been here since the debate started this morning, and I have been writing down some of the points that have been made.

I thought it was interesting that the fact-based evidence shows that the database is being jeopardized. This was a point raised by a lot of people. The fact is that 355 organizations disagree with the government, and one organization, the Fraser Institute, agrees with it, which does not seem to be a consensus of support for the government's position.

A number of other points were made. There were no privacy complaints. There was no evaluation base, no support from anyone, no consultation, no rationale, and no accountability. When I put it all together, I think I have it figured out.

I am going to ask the member if he can comment. I think this move on the census by the government was done intentionally. It really wants to destroy the quality of information available to Canadians to assess policy so that the government can continue to pursue what it believes is its ideological and scary agenda.

I wonder if the member has a comment on that.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Madam Speaker, I want to tell the member what the people at home are saying. What is it that the government does not want to hear? What is it the population is telling them about what is happening in their communities and what is needed in their communities that is scaring them?

That is exactly what the people are saying at home.

When we talk to the people, they ask, “What is wrong with this government? What is wrong with this Prime Minister? Why is he so upset about doing things that we do not like him to do?” It is something that is good for the community. We have organizations saying to us that those communities need this information if we want to bring them programs to help them.

When those questions were raised, the Conservatives talked about the nation not having any business in the bedrooms of people. We are not asking what they are doing in their bedrooms. We are asking how many bedrooms they have, and if they need affordable housing, they will get affordable housing.

That is what the nation needs to know and what the government needs to know as a responsible government.

[Rob Clarke, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

Madam Speaker, I am very happy to be speaking in this debate on the long form census. However, what I am hearing here is a bunch of hogwash. I am hearing that the gathering of data would be very beneficial to first nations, Métis and federations. That bothers me, being first nation myself.

I am hearing the Liberals, the NDP, and the Bloc advocate for these organizations. I think Canadians have to know what is going on. They have to hear what the census is all about.

One of the misleading things I am hearing from the opposition is that it is going to be very beneficial for first nations. I would to point out and let Canadians know that in the 2006 census, 22 reserves refused to participate in the census. What does that mean? One-quarter of the population was unaccounted for. I think Canadians need to know that. The census is skewed, so the gathering of the data is not getting the proper details.

One of the points I would like to bring out is that the government looks at the Indian registry. This is another form of gathering and collecting data.

I would like the member to clarify this. Would the registry be beneficial and more accurate than the census?

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Madam Speaker, probably both would be good. Why give one up?

Aboriginals do not live only on reserve. We have aboriginals living in the cities, and they need to know how many people may be living in cities and what we can do to help them.

The aboriginals have told us that it is not good to get rid of the long form.

Why get rid of it? Why does the government not want to have the information about its citizens? It just does not make sense. I believe that no other country is doing this, if they care as a government, except the Conservative government, which likes all Canadians to be on their own. Give them their taxes back in their pockets and they can look after themselves.

That is not the type of country we have. We have collectivity. We look after each other--

[The Acting Speaker, NDP, Denise Savoie]

Order. Resuming debate, the hon. member for Sault Ste. Marie.

[Tony Martin, NDP, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

Madam Speaker, it is a great pleasure to speak on this very important topic, as it affects the members of my community and people across Canada.

I want to speak to this issue today from the perspective of its impact on those who are most at risk and marginalized in our country. I want to, first, put it into some context.

I have been working very hard for 20 years now at a senior level of government on the issue of poverty and how the policies and programs of government have an impact, directly or indirectly, on the lives of those in communities across the country who are struggling to make ends meet, to keep body and soul together, and to look after themselves and their families.

I believe that government has no greater responsibility than to look after those in its jurisdiction who are most at risk and marginalized. I have watched governments at both the provincial and federal levels, particularly in the last 15 years, try to define the issue out of existence rather than do things on behalf of and in support of those who are challenged.

All of us who are involved have been engaged in a constant, perpetual debate about how to measure poverty. What measurements should we use? Some people talk about the low income cutoff. Others talk about the market basket. There are many other vehicles people have argued about over those 15 years. All the while, the people who are counting on us, who are looking to government for some assistance, who are thinking that we will work with them to help them better their lives, get nothing. They get no leadership, no direction, and no partnership. They get nobody coming to the table to work with them to help them out. We who have been given this great responsibility to set up programs to deal with their issues cannot get to a place where we agree on what poverty is, what the measurement is, what the level is, and what it looks like so that we can get on with putting in place some of these very important programs.

The other context I want to talk about is a very important discussion that has been going on at the Standing Committee on Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities. The member for Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, who is in the House today, will know about this and so will the member for Huron—Bruce, who sits on that committee and is here this afternoon.

We have been, for two years now, out and across this country talking to people, people who are working with those who are living in poverty and people who are living in poverty themselves. We have talked with different levels of government, municipal and provincial, that are trying their very best to respond to the ever-increasing challenges facing ordinary families and working men and women across this country as the economy changes, the recession hits us, and we try to work our way through it. They are asking who will put in place programs that will assist them in dealing with these very complicated and difficult realities they have not experienced before and now have to deal with.

We are trying, as a committee, to bring forward some strong recommendations to this House that would make a difference. Those recommendations would be based primarily on our ability, together, in a non-partisan way, to decide on some measurements that would indicate to us where it is that we need to start to deal with this very difficult challenge.

As we crossed the country, we discovered that poverty had a different face. I went to Vancouver, Penticton, Castlegar, and Burnaby. I went to Edmonton and Calgary and met with people there. I then went over to Saskatchewan, to Saskatoon and Regina. I went to Winnipeg, Thunder Bay, many places in the wonderful province of Ontario, and then down to Halifax, Moncton, St. John's, and Montreal. We went across this country. We discovered that poverty presents itself in different ways because the challenges are different. We need to get a handle on what it looks like and how we can best make a difference in the lives of our people.

In this context, removing the long form census, discarding important data that will give us the ability as a standing committee to measure poverty and know what it looks like in different places in the country, will tie our hands behind our backs. It takes away the vehicles we need to make the recommendations that government must have to respond to the challenge of assisting people across the country.

Many provinces, to their great credit, have launched anti-poverty strategies in their own jurisdictions. They need the long form census to get that information. They need to continue this important work. If the federal government is going to respond to the call of those provinces, if the government means to come to the table and be an effective partner once again in a national anti-poverty strategy, then we need the long form census to acquire the information necessary to target the resources that will give us the best return on our investment.

It is an important piece of public policy that we are debating here today. I appeal to the government and its sense of fairness and justice, in looking at its own jurisdictions, ridings, and constituencies to agree with me and the members from Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, Huron—Bruce, Chambly—Borduas, and the many who have been working so hard for a number of years. The Minister of Human Resources and Skills Development will need these vehicles as well. Give us the tools we need to do this job properly.

As an example of how all this will affect the country, let us take a look at the disabled community. The member from Dartmouth—Cole Harbour raised this in committee. Last spring, the disabled got the first indication of what was coming when the government announced that the important PALS survey, which was based on the census, was not going to continue. The PALS survey went to people who reported a disability on their census form. Because the census form was mandatory, it was thought to be a reliable sample of the disabled community.

The Participation and Activity Limitation Survey, Statistics Canada's major collection of data on individuals with disabilities, was cut by the government department that paid for it: Human Resources and Skills Development Canada. There was real concern and skepticism in the disabled community on how reliable the information would be with the proposed new database culled from tax information, welfare rolls, and similar databanks.

That is just one of the groups we concern ourselves with when we look at poverty and the impact it is having. We are looking at the larger group and the many smaller ones we need to address as we bring forward a national anti-poverty strategy.

I agree with all those who have put their voices on the record in opposing the removal of the long form census, which is an essential element in the work the government does on behalf of its constituents.

[Michael Savage, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

Madam Speaker, the member for Markham—Unionville a few minutes ago referred to how foolish this whole debate is, how unnecessary. In many ways, it is like having a debate about whether the earth is flat or round; it is that bizarre.

My colleague from Sault Ste. Marie spoke about poverty. He was in Winnipeg in early August, as I was, for a poverty round table. We were trying to determine how to make Canada serious about combatting poverty. He heard the concerns, as he had done before, of people who were trying to do things for people in the community.

The Canadian Council on Social Development, CCSD, has done a lot of work on the census over the summer. I congratulate it for this work. At one point the organization referred to some work that had been done and asked, “So what will we be left with [without the long form]? A skewed picture of mostly middle class Canadians. We'll look less diverse, less poor, ultimately less in need of government support”.

I certainly believe that is what the government wants. It wants a skewed picture of this country so it will not have to spend money that it does not want to spend on needs that it does not want to recognize. I wonder if my colleague shares that view.

[Tony Martin, NDP, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

Madam Speaker, I certainly do. There are many others in this country who share that feeling as well. It has probably even been mentioned a few times here today, but particularly in the context of trying to put in place programs that will help those who are most in need.

The Evangelical Fellowship of Canada said the government is acting like Pharoah in the Old Testament, not recognizing that, if the census is good enough for God when he deemed that everybody needed to be counted, then it should be good enough for the government.

Top Jewish leaders from across Canada wrote the industry minister warning that the loss of key demographic data on religion and ethnicity gleaned from the long form questionnaire would hinder charitable efforts to help members of their own community and, in many instances, the poor.

Canadian bishops have said that a great deal of this information based on data gathered by Statistics Canada is helpful to all faith groups, especially when they try to respond to those living around their parishes who are in need of help.

[Mike Wallace, Conservative, Burlington, ON]

Madam Speaker, I would like to make a clarification. We are not getting rid of the long form census. It is changing to a voluntary response from a mandatory requirement, under which non-compliance was punishable by jail or fine.

There was a 95% return rate in the last census. Of that 95%, how many volunteered to return the survey because they thought it was the right thing to do? Of that 95%, what percentage does the member think did it only because there were penalties involved?