House of Commons Hansard #31 of the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was copyright.

Topics

Democracy in UkraineGovernment Orders

6:40 p.m.

NDP

Peggy Nash NDP Parkdale—High Park, ON

Madam Chair, many Ukrainian Canadians are asking themselves what they can do here in Canada regarding the situation in Ukraine. I have had the privilege of participating in public demonstrations with the community a couple of times regarding the serious situation in Ukraine.

My question is with regard to Canada's trading relationship with Ukraine. Isolating Ukraine would be the wrong way to go. Does my colleague think we should encourage Ukraine to respect its own judiciary and democracy by telling it that respecting human rights is extremely important if it wants a free trade agreement with Canada?

Democracy in UkraineGovernment Orders

6:45 p.m.

Conservative

Robert Sopuck Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Marquette, MB

Madam Chair, my hon. friend has asked an excellent question. A thriving trading relationship is probably the best way to promote democracy and human rights. Canada will, and should, express outrage at what has been happening in Ukraine, but at the same time Canada should help move Ukraine toward a stronger and better relationship with the western world. It has to be a two-pronged approach where we express our concern for what is happening to Yulia Tymoshenko and at the same time increase our trading relationship with Ukraine.

Democracy in UkraineGovernment Orders

6:45 p.m.

Liberal

Kevin Lamoureux Liberal Winnipeg North, MB

Madam Chair, I appreciate the member's comments. It is a very important debate we are having this evening. I will put forward a thought and will be interested in hearing the member's response to it.

Given Canada's history in terms of wanting to help resolve issues in Ukraine, would the member be in favour of having representatives from all parties of this House make representation on an issue such as this? We would get one or two members from each political party in the House to show how serious we are on this particular issue. Is this something which he thinks the government might be open to do?

Democracy in UkraineGovernment Orders

6:45 p.m.

Conservative

Robert Sopuck Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Marquette, MB

Madam Chair, a few months ago I had the honour to be elected chair of the Canada-Ukraine Parliamentary Friendship Group, an all-party group dedicated to improving relations with Ukraine. Personally, I would have no difficulty with the suggestion that he had.

This is one of those issues that transcends partisanship. I know that all of us strive to get our place in the sun as political parties and MPs, but there are issues which I think transcend partisanship, and this may be one of them. I think that is something we could consider through the Canada-Ukraine Parliamentary Friendship Group.

Democracy in UkraineGovernment Orders

6:45 p.m.

Mississauga—Erindale Ontario

Conservative

Bob Dechert ConservativeParliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Foreign Affairs

Madam Chair, I would like to congratulate my colleague on being elected as chair of the Canada-Ukraine Parliamentary Friendship Group. He does very fine work in that regard.

The member was in attendance last Friday evening in Toronto when the Prime Minister received the Shevchenko award from the Ukrainian Canadian Congress. I understand that the Prime Minister is only the second prime minister in Canadian history to have been awarded that medal. The first was prime minister John Diefenbaker. Could the member share with us some of the comments the Prime Minister made last Friday night on that occasion about this matter that we are discussing this evening?

Democracy in UkraineGovernment Orders

6:45 p.m.

Conservative

Robert Sopuck Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Marquette, MB

Madam Chair, the Prime Minister was very forthright and principled in his comments. There was no equivocation, no hesitation at all. Canada is clearly on the side of the Ukrainian people.

I have a comment about the Taras Shevchenko medal. Taras Shevchenko is the heart and soul of Ukrainian culture. Indeed, in my own little community of Sandy Lake we have a Ukrainian museum and there are the poems of Taras Shevchenko. The common thread of freedom, democracy and the rule of law permeate Ukrainian culture from the littlest communities to the largest cities, and our Prime Minister's remarks reflected that.

Democracy in UkraineGovernment Orders

6:45 p.m.

NDP

Hélène Laverdière NDP Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC

Madam Chair, the NDP strongly supports this motion. The NDP is really concerned about the politically motivated persecution of Ukrainian opposition members and, in particular, the former prime minister, Mrs. Tymoshenko.

We in this room are not the only ones to be concerned about the current situation, nor are we the only ones to say that this trial was politically motivated. Amnesty International, which is a very trusted organization, said:

The prosecution against Yuliya Timoshenko is politically motivated. The charges against her are not internationally recognizable offences, they are attempts to criminalize decisions that she made in the course of her work.... Poor political decisions of this kind – if that is what they were - should be punished by voters, not through courts.

We fully agree. In fact, we have been concerned for some time about the situation. In September the NDP finance critic and the foreign affairs critic sent a letter to the Minister of Foreign Affairs to underline our concerns on that issue. We are quite happy for this opportunity to discuss this very serious issue today.

As we all know, democracy is far more than casting a vote every four, five or seven years, depending on the regime. Democracy includes fundamental respect for institutions. In this case we can see a clear disrespect for normal institutions and the division of power. The persecution of Mrs. Tymoshenko is a politicization of the judicial system, not only her persecution but the persecution of other opposition leaders. It should be a wake-up call for all of us that our institutions can be so fragile and have to be protected seriously.

Democracy also includes respect for political rights. Here again we see a clear violation of those rights. As well, democracy includes respect for diverging views, such as in the media. More and more in Ukraine there is a shutdown of media that show different versions of things, and of course, opposition parties. Democracy is that and a lot more.

I started by saying that democracy is not only about voting, but democracy is also about the right to vote. There are serious concerns about the October 2012 election in Ukraine. How is this election going to proceed if the main opposition leaders cannot participate in the said election? What kind of democratic election can that be?

We are all here today because we deplore this situation, but we are not the only ones. The EU has condemned the situation, as have the Americans. However, we should do more than deplore and protest.

We Canadians have such strong links with Ukrainian people. Their brothers among us have helped build this country. We have more than 120 years of a strong relationship, so we do care about what is happening in Ukraine. We do not want Ukrainians to lose all the benefits of the Orange Revolution. We do not want violence to erupt in Ukraine. This could happen; repression moves quickly. We want a democratic and prosperous Ukraine.

We should do more than stand here worrying and saying this is not good. We should communicate our concerns to Ukrainian officials. We should discuss with partners in the EU and our neighbours to the south to see what avenues there are to convince current Ukrainian authorities that they are going down the wrong path. We should also help in Ukraine. We should support, for example, human rights groups. We should support a training formula. We should support pro-democracy organizations.

We already give $22 million a year to Ukraine. I am not saying we should stop giving this money, far from it, but we give it mainly in the business and agricultural sectors which are very important. If the situation gets worse, those sectors are going to suffer too. Maybe we should do a bit more on prevention. Maybe we should work more upstream and put all our efforts and money toward ensuring a healthy Ukrainian democracy where human rights are respected, where there is a clear division of power and where the prime minister does not hold all the power over parliament, government and everything else.

This is something we should clearly think about. We should think about redirecting our aid money to support on the ground human rights organizations and pro-democracy organizations. We should be looking very closely at the proposed Canada-Ukraine free trade agreement to see if we should move forward in the current circumstances and if so, if we can include in the agreement some safeguards and guarantees regarding human rights and the rule of law.

Democracy in UkraineGovernment Orders

6:55 p.m.

Mississauga—Erindale Ontario

Conservative

Bob Dechert ConservativeParliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Foreign Affairs

Madam Chair, I want to congratulate my hon. colleague on her speech and on her selection as the foreign affairs critic for the NDP.

The member will know that the Prime Minister made a statement about the Tymoshenko matter just last Friday when, as was mentioned earlier, he had the honour of receiving the Taras Shevchenko medal from the Ukrainian Canadian Congress, the highest honour that organization bestows. As was pointed out earlier, he is only the second prime minister in Canadian history to receive that medal. He said:

I've written directly to President Yanukovych. I let him know that I am deeply concerned...that the conduct of Tymoshenko's trial does not reflect accepted norms of due process or fairness. Friends, we all know that vigorous political opposition and judicial independence are vital to building a democratic and prosperous Ukraine. Canada will support Ukraine whenever it moves towards freedom, democracy and justice. However, our foreign policy is rooted in principle, and in the defence of freedom.

I wonder if the hon. member could comment on the Prime Minister's remarks.

Democracy in UkraineGovernment Orders

7 p.m.

NDP

Hélène Laverdière NDP Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC

Madam Chair, I believe that his comments were quite pertinent. We thank him for that. His comments reveal a great deal about Canadian diplomacy, defending democracy and human rights, which has been an exceptional and longstanding tradition recognized throughout the world, and a source of pride.

As part of the response, such a gesture is absolutely essential. I also suggest that we could do more by examining the type of aid that we give Ukraine and by providing concrete assistance on the ground to developing democratic institutions and human rights organizations.

It is fine to say that we support democracy, but we must do our part. With Canada's expertise in democracy, human rights and democratic institutions, and given our longstanding friendship with Ukraine, we should be first in line to provide our support.

Democracy in UkraineGovernment Orders

7 p.m.

Liberal

Kevin Lamoureux Liberal Winnipeg North, MB

Madam Chair, I want to pick up on the member's point about getting directly involved. I had made the suggestion to a previous speaker that one of the things we could consider looking at is the possibility of having an all party group of members of Parliament go and deliver a message based on consensus.

I would be interested in hearing the member's response to that particular idea.

Democracy in UkraineGovernment Orders

7 p.m.

NDP

Hélène Laverdière NDP Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC

Madam Chair, I thank the member opposite for his suggestion, which seems to be an interesting one.

When we are dealing with such complicated issues, it needs to be a multi-prong approach. I think parliamentarians can play an important role, especially given that one of the problems in Ukraine is the lack of independence of the parliament in the current situation. This could be very important and I am sure some people from the NDP caucus would be interested in participating in that.

I think we also need to bring to bear governmental pressure and the on-the ground expertise that Canada has on these issues.

Democracy in UkraineGovernment Orders

7 p.m.

NDP

Linda Duncan NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB

Madam Chair, I thank my hon. colleague for her very informed and helpful comments. In the House, we all respect her long history in the diplomatic services. Her opinion is very valued on this.

It is interesting that the very recommendations being made in the House and by my hon. colleague are endorsed by the Ukrainian Canadian Congress. It has called for CIDA to divert its funding and its support toward more NGO support to build better governments, and so forth.

I appreciated my hon. colleague's comment that while we do not want to discourage trade between Canada and the Ukraine, we want to build their economy. I come from a province where the former premier was of Ukrainian descent. We come from a very proud tradition.

I have a history with some of the side agreements to trade agreements, for example the NAFTA agreement in which conditions were imposed giving citizens the right to participate, access information and so forth. Apparently, the Ukrainian Canadian Congress has called for censuring the Ukraine government. If we look at the definition of censure. I wonder if perhaps those are some of the measures that we could pursue. Maybe there needs to be conditions on transparency, engagement and so forth in our trade agreements.

Democracy in UkraineGovernment Orders

7:05 p.m.

NDP

Hélène Laverdière NDP Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC

Absolutely, Madam Chair, and the tools already exist. This is not the first time that a country is in a situation where it is signing agreements with another country that still has progress to make. The European Union is a good example. It accepts into the union countries that still do not meet its standards, but it gives them benchmarks to reach. I think that is a policy that we should integrate into all of our free trade agreements. As my colleague said, it is not a matter of abandoning Ukraine. In such situations, it is important to maintain a dialogue and work together, and for Canada to bring what it can to the table.

If I may digress: in all of our free trade agreements, when necessary, we must have specific measures to ensure that human rights and democratic development are essential parts of the free trade agreement. That is true not only for Ukraine but also for Colombia and many other countries. We cannot do trade only without taking into account issues as important as human rights. If it is not a matter of being kind, it is a matter of being smart. Countries that do not respect human rights are often more unstable countries, and no one wins.

Democracy in UkraineGovernment Orders

7:05 p.m.

Conservative

Peter Goldring Conservative Edmonton East, AB

Madam Chair, I congratulate my colleague on her dissertation on the matter at present. I just have one suggestion to possibly throw into the mix.

The Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe has delegates from Canada, the United States and 54 other countries, including the Ukraine. It is an excellent forum to have these discussions with parliamentarians from 56 countries. Perhaps it is in a forum, not necessarily to single out but maybe to be inclusive, that we should have a discussion on parliamentary democracy. It might inch into this type of discussion on how to deal with matters, how to make the point and have a decision-making process with 56 countries of parliamentarians on a better way for parliaments to proceed with their own internal democracy.

Democracy in UkraineGovernment Orders

7:05 p.m.

NDP

Hélène Laverdière NDP Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC

Madam Chair, I thank my hon. colleague for his speech, which is in line with my comments. If we want to ask the OSCE to be a partner in the talks with Ukraine, we can do it at the parliamentary level, but we can also do it with the organization itself. It has a great deal of expertise in democratic development and the protection of human rights.

Democracy in UkraineGovernment Orders

7:05 p.m.

Liberal

Kevin Lamoureux Liberal Winnipeg North, MB

Madam Chair, I am disappointed over recent events in relation to the prosecution of former Ukrainian prime minister and opposition leader, Yulia Tymoshenko. Recently, a judiciary in Ukraine found that Ms. Tymoshenko had overstepped her authority as former prime minister in a 2009 gas deal with Russia. The government of the current prime minister, Viktor Yanukovych, has alleged that the agreement forces Ukraine to pay exorbitant prices well above market value for Russian gas. As a result, Ms. Tymoshenko has now been sentenced to seven years in prison and has been barred from holding governmental posts for an additional three years after the completion of her prison sentence.

Others have also been targeted. Recently, charges have been brought forth against former interior minister, Yuri Lutsenko.

I think it is clear, from these recent charges against the opposition in Ukraine, that the government is engaging in political silencing, especially in light of upcoming elections both next year and in 2015. As a result of her sentence, Ms. Tymoshenko will not be permitted to run in either election.

I take issue with these political trials that ultimately put at risk the ability of Ukraine to have free democratic elections. We must ask how Ukraine can uphold the rights and visions of its people when dissenting voices are threatened and effectively removed by the hands of the courts and through what appears here to be the influence of the government. Governments cannot prosecute the decisions of former governments simply because they do not agree with them, and governments must respect and safeguard the right of individuals to express their positions.

Dissension is not criminal. Rather, it is an integral part of the maintenance of a strong, dynamic and democratic society. Amnesty International has repeatedly called for the release of Ms. Tymoshenko and various international experts have questioned the legitimacy of the trial.

I urge the government to take measures so that the rights of Ukrainians are upheld and so that individuals and authority figures have the ability to speak freely of their positions without fear of prosecution. Ukraine needs to facilitate a fair and transparent appeal process for Ms. Tymoshenko and to ensure that the judiciary maintains its independence.

It is a privilege for me to stand here today and speak to this very important take note debate. I find that Canada has a wonderful history in terms of friendship with Ukraine and the connections we have been able to develop over the years speak volumes. As has been pointed out, back in 1991, Ottawa was quick to recognize an independent Ukraine. On May 27, 2008, all four parties here in the House of Commons voted on a bill recognizing the Holodomor as an act of genocide.

Even though I was not in this particular House, I was in the Manitoba legislature. In the last number of years, the Manitoba legislature has had resolutions and bills dealing with the recognition of the Holodomor as an act of genocide. We recognize the valuable contributions our Ukrainian community has made to who we are as a Canadian society. In fact, one of the first issues I raised inside the House of Commons was an issue that I know is very important to our Ukraine community, and that was in regard to the Holodomor and the Canadian Human Rights Museum, and why it is that I believe, suspect and hope that others in the House see the value of having that permanent display.

I say that because we do have a role to play. We have a history where we have shown that Canada can have an impact. We have that rich heritage here. I could talk about Winnipeg North as a community that was, in good part, built by Ukrainian immigrants. They have not lost their caring or compassion for their homeland, which is something I personally encourage. We need to take advantage of the rich heritages that are brought from other countries. Ukraine is one of them and the Ukrainian community has made immense contributions to our country.

People can turn to organizations such as the Ukrainian Canadian Congress that have immense amounts of credibility to get a sense of what is actually happening. Organizations like that can help us in ensuring we are making good decisions on where to go from here.

I and the Liberal caucus have benefited immensely from the past performance of Borys Wrzesnewskyj, the former member of Parliament for Etobicoke Centre, and he also was a friend. Even though I have not known him long, he was a colleague of mine, and he ensures that the Liberal caucus is being kept informed on this very important issue.

That is one of the reasons I made the suggestion a little earlier that there is something else we should consider doing. I was pleased that the member for Dauphin—Swan River—Marquette mentioned the possibility of three or five members going to Ukraine to look at what we might be able to do in an all-party fashion, including the Canada-Ukraine Parliamentary Friendship Group, of which I am a member. I look to the member and suggest this is something that could make a difference. Maybe it is possible to visit Mrs. Tymoshenko herself or other individuals in Ukraine, as a group of parliamentarians.

It is really encouraging when party politics are put aside in order to address an important issue. This is an important issue that is worthy of the debate taking place this evening, and I hope and trust that members will want to take it to the next level. It is encouraging when we hear that letters have been written, whether they are from the Prime Minister or others, or when individual actions are taken within our many communities, even by individuals not of Ukrainian heritage who know what is right and wrong, see what is happening in Ukraine and feel it is just not right. It shows just how vulnerable democracy is and how important it is for us as parliamentarians to play a role in protecting democracies where we can, especially where we can have that influence.

I would suggest the time is right for us to be debating this issue today. I hope a strong message will go to Ukraine about the debate we are having. I look forward to a response from the member for Dauphin—Swan River—Marquette, chair of the Canada-Ukraine Parliamentary Friendship Group, with the hope that we will be able to move forward on the issue. Perhaps we could meet and have a discussion as to what is next. We could possibly invite the Ukrainian Canadian Congress to participate in our next meeting so we can continue the dialogue in an apolitical fashion and hopefully have a stronger impact in Ukraine. I trust, hope and pray we are able to make a difference in the beautiful country of Ukraine.

Democracy in UkraineGovernment Orders

7:15 p.m.

Conservative

Peter Goldring Conservative Edmonton East, AB

Madam Chair, just as a little background for those who may not be aware, Yulia Tymoshenko was the lightening rod in the Orange Revolution. She really was one of the premier people who caused the Orange Revolution, kept it going, and brought it to a successful, wonderful conclusion. What a message to the world to have hundreds of thousands of people out on the street in protest for their vote and to have no one injured in it. It was a peaceful protest that was successfully brought through.

She was a thorn in the side of the president back then, and in the last presidential election as well. It is rather understandable, in a way, why she would be perceived to be problematic for the president moving forward, as my colleague said.

Does my colleague have other ideas for things we might do to put this issue forward on an international platter? Would it be appropriate to call in the ambassador of Ukraine when he does arrive here, or for our friendship committee to have a friendly meeting with the ambassador of Ukraine when he does arrive? What other things could my colleague possibly offer for consideration?

Democracy in UkraineGovernment Orders

7:20 p.m.

Liberal

Kevin Lamoureux Liberal Winnipeg North, MB

Madam Chair, I think that is an excellent idea. I have two quick points. The Orange Revolution is something that is really unique in world history, and we acknowledge that. The leading role Ms. Tymoshenko played was just overwhelmingly phenomenal. That is all the more reason why Canada does have a role to play.

I suggest that there is the political will here today, whether it is the Liberal Party of Canada, the New Democrats or the Conservatives in government. Maybe the way we attempt to take it to the next level is to ask the member for Dauphin—Swan River—Marquette, who is the chair of the parliamentary friendship group between Canada and Ukraine, to convene a meeting and we will get members from all political parties together. I am a member of that particular committee and I would welcome the opportunity to have the ambassador come before the committee. Maybe we can come up with some ideas through that particular committee. I can assure the member that he would have my full co-operation in an apolitical fashion.

Democracy in UkraineGovernment Orders

7:20 p.m.

NDP

Linda Duncan NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB

Madam Chair, I have to share that I am finding it very encouraging to hear both from the Conservative benches and the Liberal benches the enthusiasm they share with us for the orange wave.

Democracy in UkraineGovernment Orders

7:20 p.m.

Conservative

Peter Van Loan Conservative York—Simcoe, ON

It is different.

Democracy in UkraineGovernment Orders

October 18th, 2011 / 7:20 p.m.

Conservative

Peter Goldring Conservative Edmonton East, AB

Stick with the program.

Democracy in UkraineGovernment Orders

7:20 p.m.

NDP

Linda Duncan NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB

No, it is not different. It is a colour that represents freedom, democracy and opportunity to participate in the development of their nation. We applaud the people of Ukraine for standing up and fighting for that. I know Ukrainians share that with Canadians. They want the opportunity for economic development. They want the freedom of association. They want democratic institutions.

There is a wonderful institution that comes out of Alberta, the Ukrainian News, which has been there for many decades. It has been giving front page coverage to this issue. It is clearly an issue of concern to Canadians and to Albertans, and not just people of Ukrainian decent.

I am wondering if the member agrees with what is reported in the Ukrainian News , that the Ukrainian Canadian Congress is saying, yes, we should be using all diplomatic means but we should be censoring the Ukrainian government if it is not including measures for democracy and freedom of speech in its trade relationships with Canada. I wonder if the member could speak to that.

Democracy in UkraineGovernment Orders

7:20 p.m.

Liberal

Kevin Lamoureux Liberal Winnipeg North, MB

Madam Chair, again, I have two quick points.

That is one of the reasons I made the suggestion that the Canadian Ukrainian Congress would be a wonderful group to have come and meet with the friendship group, which we already have established and which is quite ably chaired by the member for Dauphin—Swan River—Marquette. There is all-party representation on it. I believe it could be done in a fairly apolitical fashion by doing it that way.

With regard to the reference to orange, I could talk about the yellow revolution that occurred in the Philippines in reaction to President Marcos. I do not want to get into the colours. It is not about colours. Ms. Tymoshenko is an awesome lady and she is quickly becoming a world icon. I think what we need to do is, in an apolitical fashion as much as possible, try to make sure there is justice to this issue and that democracy is protected in Ukraine, as much as we can.

I am prepared to work in an apolitical fashion with someone of Ukrainian heritage back in Winnipeg North or with the Prime Minister, because this is an issue that I think transcends party lines. At least that is my take on it at this point.

Democracy in UkraineGovernment Orders

7:20 p.m.

Liberal

Jim Karygiannis Liberal Scarborough—Agincourt, ON

Madam Chair, I am remembering some of the history of the Orange Revolution and the work that was done then. It was the spirit of the Martin government at the time that sent close to 1,000 observers, under the leadership of former prime minister John Turner. They went there to assist and make sure democracy did happen.

There are 1.2 million Ukrainians in Canada, the fourth largest diaspora in Canada, and they are playing an important role. We have members of Parliament from Ukraine and we even had a Governor General.

We can sit and talk about sanctions, and I was impressed when my colleague across the way said that maybe we should call the ambassador and speak to him. I am wondering if there is a means for ambassadors whose countries are misbehaving in an undemocratic fashion, be they Egypt or Syria, to be called on the carpet and read the riot act. Maybe we should act in the same fashion when the new ambassador comes from Ukraine, and also all the other high commissioners and ambassadors whose countries are doing this kind of thing. Could the member comment on this?

Democracy in UkraineGovernment Orders

7:25 p.m.

Liberal

Kevin Lamoureux Liberal Winnipeg North, MB

Madam Chair, I appreciate the comment in regard to the election observers. The number of Canadians who participated in Ukraine in 2004 was impressive to see.

In my short period of time in the Canada-Ukraine Parliamentary Friendship Group, I have noted that there was a relationship between the past ambassador and the group. I do believe there is some merit in terms of asking, but the past ambassador is now back in Ukraine. One of his last responsibilities was to retrace via train the immigration of individuals who came from Ukraine. I met him in the Winnipeg train station. I believe there is merit in at least asking for the ambassador so we can express ourselves in a very direct way.

One of the suggestions we made earlier was having an all-party group of MPs travel to Ukraine, hopefully to meet with Ms. Tymoshenko or others. We hope the government will pick up on that particular recommendation.