Debates of Nov. 29th, 2011

Motions in Amendment

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

Madam Speaker, I thank the member opposite for outlining why the Conservatives think it is important to move forward with the bill. Of course it flies in the face of any kind of evidence that is emerging from countries, like the United States, that have taken this approach and are now backtracking because it simply did not work.

The member talked about crime prevention. I want to reference the University of Ottawa's Institute for the Prevention of Crime, which has posed a number of questions and I wonder if the member would be prepared to answer them. The institute talks about evidence-based approaches and it has four questions. I am sure the member will not have time to answer all of them but we should consider these four questions in the House. If we had full time for debate we would have done this. The questions are:

What is the evidence on proven or promising practices in this area?

What are the gaps in our knowledge (research priorities)?

How will the initiative be monitored and evaluated?

How will resistance to change be addressed?

I wonder if the member could address those questions in the context of crime prevention and the measures he has indicated that the government is prepared to take.

[Robert Goguen, Conservative, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

Madam Speaker, contrary to the opposition, we do not look to the south for solutions to preventing crime and predicting the most vulnerable elements of our society.

I am always bemused by the fact that the system that we are trying to put in place to protect the innocent people of Canada, the victim, is compared to the United States of America. It is my understanding that we are always being compared to Texas. Texas does not have a parole system, so that is largely different from what we have here in Canada and what we are proposing in the legislation. We are not radically changing the whole system. We are trying to protect society from the most violent and repeat offenders.

As I understand it, Texas also has a death penalty. What can we really draw from Texas and the other 51 states of the United States of America that all have their own criminal code? In Canada, we have the benefit of having one Criminal Code to send a resounding message to all Canadians that we will protect them from the criminal element, and that is what we are doing and we believe it will work.

[Dany Morin, NDP, Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, QC]

Madam Speaker, Quebec has made it clear that it does not want to foot the bill for Bill C-10, the omnibus crime bill.

When the office of the Minister of Public Safety was asked to clarify, the minister's spokesperson responded that it would be up to each province to allocate the resources of the Canada social transfer according to its priorities. If I understand correctly, the Conservative government is asking the Government of Quebec to cut the budgets for post-secondary education, social assistance, social services and early childhood services, since these are areas covered by the Canada social transfer, in order to pay for the megaprisons.

Is that what the Conservative government is telling Quebec, that it should make cuts in order to pay for the megaprisons?

[Robert Goguen, Conservative, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

Madam Speaker, the Government of Canada and the provincial governments, including the Government of Quebec, each have their own jurisdictions. It is certainly up to the provinces to decide where they should allocate the necessary funds, according to their priorities. It is not up to the federal government to tell the Government of Quebec where its priorities should be. We know very well that Quebec puts a great deal of emphasis on rehabilitation. There is nothing in Bill C-10 that in any way affects Quebec's ability to reform its system for rehabilitating offenders.

[Kellie Leitch, Conservative, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Human Resources and Skills Development and to the Minister of Labour]

Madam Speaker, this government focused on the serious issue of protecting victims and it campaigned on a promise to be tough on child sex offenders and to crack down on illegal drug trafficking, really unlike our colleagues across the aisle in the NDP. Could the parliamentary secretary please comment on what the bill does to protect children from these serious crimes?

[Robert Goguen, Conservative, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

Madam Speaker, obviously Bill C-10 focused, as I said previously, on the most vulnerable members of society, and those are the children. Everyone will agree that children must be protected from sexual exploitation and Internet crime. Obviously, anyone who does this and has this type of contact will be punished severely and be deterred from doing this by being placed in prison.

The people of Canada have asked for this, we have responded to it, and there is no surprise that there are provisions in there to seriously punish people who are in this field of criminal activity.

[Kerry-Lynne Findlay, Conservative, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Justice]

Madam Speaker, I am very pleased to speak today about Bill C-10, the safe streets and communities act, to highlight that this bill is a reflection of our commitment to tackling crime, increasing public safety, and restoring the confidence of Canadians in the justice system.

The people of Canada know they can count on us to deliver on our commitments. Bill C-10 includes nine bills from the previous Parliament. Many critics of the bill argued that the bill was too big and too difficult to understand. I would note that the bill has had a thorough review in the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights. There has been no difficulty at all in understanding what these reforms seek to do. While not all members share the government's approach, I think all members of the committee would agree that their voices have been heard and we have had a respectful exchange of views.

As has been noted many times, all of these reforms have been previously introduced in Parliament. Many were previously studied and some even passed by at least one chamber. These bills were at various stages in Parliament in the last session, have been debated and studied in this session, and the public and stakeholders as well as members of Parliament are by now very familiar with these proposals.

Despite this familiarity, it is worth noting the elements and the origins of Bill C-10, in other words, the nine bills that were introduced in the last session of Parliament. As the Minister of Justice indicated at second reading debate, some changes have been made to this bill due primarily to the need to co-ordinate the merger of several bills into one and make consequential amendments to effect these changes. In some cases, other modifications were made, all of which are consistent with the objectives of the bill as originally introduced.

The former bills now included in Bill C-10 are the following.

Bill C-4, which proposed to amend the Youth Criminal Justice Act to ensure that violent and repeat young offenders are held accountable through sentences that are proportionate to the severity of their crimes and that the protection of society is given due consideration in applying the act.

Bill C-5, Keeping Canadians Safe (International Transfer of Offenders) Act, which proposed to enhance public safety by modifying the circumstances that would permit an international transfer of an offender.

Bill C-16, which proposed Criminal Code amendments to prevent the use of conditional sentences, or house arrest for serious and violent offences.

Bill C-23B, Eliminating Pardons for Serious Crimes Act, which proposed to amend the Criminal Records Act to expand the period of ineligibility to apply for a record suspension, currently referred to as a pardon, and to make record suspensions unavailable for certain offences and for persons who have been convicted of more than three offences prosecuted by indictment.

Bill C-39, Ending Early Release for Criminals and Increasing Offender Accountability Act, which proposed amendments to the Corrections and Conditional Release Act, to support victims of crime and address inmate accountability and responsibility and the management of offenders.

Bill C-54, Protecting Children from Sexual Predators Act, which proposed Criminal Code amendments to better protect children against sexual abuse, including by increasing the penalties for these offences and creating two new offences aimed at certain conduct that could facilitate or enable the commission of a sexual offence against a child.

Bill C-56, Preventing the Trafficking, Abuse and Exploitation of Vulnerable Immigrants Act, which proposed to amend the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act to authorize immigration officers to refuse work permits where it would protect vulnerable foreign nationals against exploitation, including sexual exploitation.

Bill S-7, the Justice for Victims of Terrorism Act, which proposed reforms to allow victims of terrorism to sue terrorists and supporters of terrorism, including listed foreign states.

Bill S-10, Penalties for Organized Drug Crime Act, which proposed amendments to the Controlled Drugs and Substances Act to provide mandatory minimum penalties for serious drug offences, including when offences are carried out for organized crime purposes, or if they involve targeting youth.

The maximum penalty for the production of some drugs would also be increased. These amendments also proposed to allow a sentencing court to delay sentencing while the offender completed an approved treatment program.

Bill C-10 was studied by the justice committee over several weeks and over 90 motions to amend the bill were considered. While very few were passed and many were completely inconsistent with the principles underlying the bill, each motion was given due consideration.

I would also note that over 80 motions have been proposed at report stage. Many of these motions seek to completely undo or gut the proposed amendments.

As I noted at the outset of my remarks, Bill C-10 reflects our government's commitment to restoring public confidence in our justice system. Clearly, the motions proposed at report stage demonstrate that this commitment is not shared by other members of the House.

There has been a great deal of discussion about the elements of the bill that provide for mandatory minimum penalties and that restrict conditional sentences. The reality is that these reforms are carefully tailored and targeted to offenders who commit the most serious offences.

Should offenders convicted of arson receive a conditional sentence allowing them to serve out their sentence at home under certain conditions? Should an offender convicted of an offence with a maximum sentence of 14 years ever be permitted to serve that sentence in the comfort of the offender's home?

Even under the strictest of conditions I think all Canadians would agree that no matter what the conditions of house arrest may be, it is simply not appropriate for serious offences. Bill C-10 reforms will make that crystal clear.

I would note that motions to amend the proposed reforms to the conditional sentencing provisions were made at committee and again at report stage. Without going into detail, those motions sought to permit conditional sentences to be imposed without regard to any criteria to limit their imposition as long as certain other exceptional circumstances existed about the offender. Such sentences are not appropriate for some offences regardless of the offender's particular circumstances.

Conditional sentences were never intended to be used for the most serious or violent offences. Our reforms will clarify this once and for all and will provide the clear parameters for use of conditional sentences or house arrest.

As I noted, part 2 of the safe streets and communities act includes former Bill S-10, Penalties for Organized Drug Crime Act. These reforms have been introduced in three previous Parliaments and have been passed by both chambers but never by both in the same session.

Despite our repeated debates and committee study of these reforms, there still remains much misunderstanding about the mandatory minimums for serious drug offences. As noted by other speakers, the minimum mandatory penalties are tailored to serious drug offences where aggravating factors are present.

Importantly, the amendments include an exception that allows courts not to impose the mandatory minimum sentence if an offender successfully completes a drug treatment program or DTC, as it is referred to. The program works with individuals who have been charged with drug-related offences who meet certain eligibility criteria to overcome their drug addictions and avoid future conflict with the law. It involves a blend of judicial supervision, incentives for reduced drug use, social services support and sanctions for non-compliance.

There are currently six drug treatment courts in Canada. They are located in Ottawa, Toronto, Winnipeg, Regina, Edmonton and Vancouver. The same exception applies for other programs, so that a court could delay sentencing to allow the offender to attend another approved treatment program.

This last point seems to have been overlooked by some members and we all share the concern about the need for mental health resources. However, the Criminal Code already permits a court to delay sentencing to permit an offender to attend an approved treatment program. This could be a program for mental health issues, anger management or other similar issues. This already exists in the code.

I will conclude by saying that the government is committed to public safety and improvements to the justice system, and will continue to deliver on the promises that we have made to Canadians.

[Rosane Doré Lefebvre, NDP, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the government is introducing a bill that will increase the prison population in federal institutions.

I have a few questions about that. Several federal penitentiaries are located in my riding. At present, the employees of institutions that house inmates already have many problems in relation to quality of life, health and workplace safety. These institutions are not even at full capacity, yet there are already problems.

Does my hon. colleague believe that the number of employees working in these federal penitentiaries will be increased? Is there anything in this bill to protect the employees already on the ground, given that the prison population will increase and more and more problems will arise in prisons?

[Kerry-Lynne Findlay, Conservative, Delta—Richmond East, BC]

Mr. Speaker, one of the problems I am finding in this debate back and forth is that everyone keeps looking within the four corners of this particular comprehensive legislative package for all the answers. There are ongoing programs and ongoing dialogue with our provincial and territorial partners.

As we know, with the division of powers in Canada, the federal government is responsible for legislating on criminal law and the provincial governments for administering it. The conditions in prisons, how prisons are run and how staffing is done is part of an ongoing dialogue. These are things that continue to be worked on and those concerns will be brought forward in those dialogues.

[Hélène LeBlanc, NDP, LaSalle—Émard, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Justice. As elected officials and government members, they have a duty to base their decisions on experts' studies in order to create informed policies.

She said the bill aims to restore the confidence of Canadians in our justice system. What study is the member basing that statement on?

[Kerry-Lynne Findlay, Conservative, Delta—Richmond East, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I do not know that one needs studies to know. I certainly heard it when I was knocking on doors during the last election campaign. As a lawyer of 30 years, I have been hearing for the last 30 years from members of the public that they do not understand why the punishment for certain crimes is not commensurate with the severity of the crime. They do not understand why someone convicted, not just accused but convicted, of serious and violent offences can serve some of that time or any of that time in a conditional sentence or in their own homes.

This is an ongoing problem in the public's mind and one that we are adamantly seeking to address with this legislation.

[Irwin Cotler, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the other parliamentary secretary made reference to the fact that we should be going across the country and listening to Canadians, not engaging in fear-mongering. I have gone across the country and I have listened to Canadians, both in my former capacity as minister of justice and now as an MP, on this bill.

I would like to put two questions. Is it fear-mongering to raise evidence-based critiques of mandatory minimums, some of which are based on evidence contained in Department of Justice publications, as I know them to be?

Second, is it fear-mongering to raise concerns about whether Bill C-10 comports with the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms when the minister of justice, whoever he or she may be, has a constitutional duty to ensure that legislation comports with the Charter of Rights and Freedoms?

[Kerry-Lynne Findlay, Conservative, Delta—Richmond East, BC]

Mr. Speaker, of course there is a duty on behalf of the Minister of Justice to put forward legislation that complies, in our view, with the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. However, as the hon. member said himself in the justice committee, there is also a constitutional duty for the minister in his portfolio to protect the public. That is exactly what this is aimed at doing.

A lot of rhetoric has been coming from the other side, most of it hysterical, and I do mean that in both senses of the word. There were 40 mandatory minimum penalties in the Criminal Code before this government took office that were either introduced by the Liberal Party, which he represents, or were not repealed by that party.

[Lysane Blanchette-Lamothe, NDP, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

Mr. Speaker, you surely will not be surprised or amazed to hear that the NDP supports criminals, especially those that are dangerous to our children. Yes, the NDP supports criminals. You will not be surprised to hear that because it is an argument that the Conservatives have made repeatedly for some time now. It is an arrogant and inflammatory argument. I would say instead that it is precisely because we do care about the issue of crime that we are opposed to Bill C-10 as it stands.

If any member of the House truly believes today that I want to help criminals and encourage sex crimes against children, then he or she should rise, look into my eyes, and tell me that. Even the title of this bill is ridiculous: the safe streets and communities act. There is nothing that leads us to believe that mandatory minimum sentences or having no access to rehabilitation are really going to make our streets safer.

I want to speak about a report by the Standing Senate Committee on Human Rights entitled “The Sexual Exploitation of Children in Canada: the Need for National Action”. This report illustrates the grave danger children face when it comes to sexual crimes. It is asserted, among other things, that most children who are sexually abused are victims of people that they know well, that they trust, and that are close to their family.

The report proposes a number of potential solutions to combat sexual crimes against children. It is suggested that helping children blow the whistle on their aggressors might put an end to their nightmare. By arresting criminals more quickly, it may be possible to prevent further sex crimes against children. It might be surprising to learn that the report does not speak of mandatory minimum sentences, but rather of education. Education can promote children's self-esteem and give them tools to communicate.

There is also the question of access to adults who can be trusted, perhaps soccer coaches or teachers. There are plenty of people in the circle of a sexually abused child who can help open the door at the right time and listen to a child's confidences. It is also a matter of giving children the confidence that they need to report somebody by giving them the services they need before and after they blow the whistle. When children are trying to report someone, they must get support. The family members must also get support so that they can help the child rebuild self-confidence.

Those are but a couple of tools that could justifiably be associated with the title “safe streets and communities”.

There is no reference to mandatory minimum sentences in this report. The report is but one of many examples I can use to argue for my point of view: that supporting children can be a far more effective alternative to mandatory minimum sentences.

I can also speak about a strategy cited in a political statement by the Canadian Council on Social Development, which refers to crime prevention through social development. What does that mean? It is a tool, according to the CCSD, which would be a far more effective and less costly way of preventing crime. Early intervention prevents crime by helping those who otherwise may become criminals or victims.

It refers to risk factors, or what can lead a person to act in a certain way, to become a criminal or a victim. Once again, there is a surprise: it has nothing to do with mandatory minimum sentences. Criminals do not ask themselves if they are going to have to spend a certain number of years in jail. This does not necessarily influence their decision-making. This report talks about a number of risk factors such as poverty, inadequate parenting skills, addiction and alcoholism, dropping out of school, mistreatment, low self-esteem and negative peer involvement. These are problems that must be tackled in order to prevent crime and make streets and communities safe.

Bill C-10 is an omnibus bill that covers very different and diverse subjects and issues.

The bill would allow victims of terrorist acts to sue perpetrators of terrorist attacks or to sue states. The bill talks about mandatory minimum sentences, drugs and sexual crimes. It covers electronic surveillance of offenders and the codification of victims' rights. It talks about applying for a pardon, or rather a record suspension, which would be much more difficult to obtain. It talks about a criminal justice system for youth. It talks about work permits for foreign nationals who run the risk of being mistreated.

All these issues are very important and certainly deserve our attention, but they are all grouped together in one bill that must be discussed all at once. Thus, there are not many opportunities to debate these matters in the House. This is also the case for experts, for those who have dedicated their lives to justice and fighting crime, and who are not even given the time to provide their opinion and their expert advice to the government, which will make decisions without really listening to them.

Speaking of experts who testified before the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights, the following are a few who appeared on October 18.

Mr. Gottardi, vice-chair of the national criminal justice section of the Canadian Bar Association said:

The bill takes a flawed approach to dealing with offenders at all stages of their interaction with the criminal justice system, from arrest, through to trial, to their placement in and treatment by correctional institutions, and to their inevitable reintegration back into society.

Another expert, Mr. Jackson, who is a member of the committee on imprisonment and release of the national criminal justice section of the Canadian Bar Association stated:

This road map ignores 150 years of correctional history. It pays no attention to previous recommendations or royal commissions. In its 200 pages there is not a single reference to the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, or to decisions of the Supreme Court. It is legally illiterate, and yet it is the brainchild of the amendments that you have before you and upon which you are asked to hear.

Clearly, the witnesses who appeared before the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights are not all in favour of what has been presented.

Furthermore, Mr. Gottardi expressed his disappointment at being given only five minutes to speak before the committee. Imagine that. He has devoted his whole life to justice and the fight against crime and was given only five minutes before the committee to address such an important piece of legislation. I am sorry to say to Mr. Gottardi that, regardless of whether you were given five minutes or five hours, it would not have made a very big difference because the Conservatives likely would not have listened to what you had to say.

Today, 88 amendments are being presented, which is a significant number. What work was done in committee? Did the committee truly listen to the members and witnesses? I highly doubt it.

In closing, this government boasts that it listens to families, which is commendable. It is important to listen to Canadians and to react to what they have to say. They do not understand our justice system, so why not explain it to them better? They are frustrated and they are calling for justice because they think that criminals are not serving long enough sentences. It is a matter of vengeance and the families' pain and suffering. Perhaps, we could help them in some way other than to simply agree with them and introduce mandatory minimum penalties.

We could also listen to the experts who have a lot to say on this subject. For example, the West Island CALACS, which is known for its work to combat violence against women and domestic violence, has told us that it disagrees with the general thrust of this bill because it opens the door to additional repression. Repression does not give victims any real power.

So, let us listen to these experts and the people who deal with violence and the lack of safety on the streets every day. Let us listen to their suggestions and have a real discussion in order to create a bill that is far more respectful of the real needs of all Canadians.

[Dany Morin, NDP, Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, QC]

Mr. Speaker, last Sunday, under the Access to Information Act, The Canadian Press obtained an internal report by the federal Department of Justice. The report raises doubts about the effectiveness of harsher sentences, the linchpin of the Conservative government's tough-on-crime policies. To quote the author of the study, André Solecki, “There was no evidence to suggest that the imposition of a fine or imprisonment had any effect on the likelihood of whether an offender would re-offend or not.”

Thus, I have a question for my hon. NDP colleague about the following observation. Either the Conservative government does not read its own internal reports, or it ignores any reports that it does not agree with, stubbornly sticking to its ideology and forsaking all expert opinions that call for more emphasis on prevention and rehabilitation than on harsher sentences.

[Lysane Blanchette-Lamothe, NDP, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I thank my hon. colleague from Chicoutimi—Le Fjord for the example he gave. Indeed, the studies conducted by experts have called on the government to focus more on prevention. I have several examples here today. I already mentioned the CALACS and quoted a few reports. In particular, some studies involving a meta-analysis show that incarceration does not reduce recidivism. I could also talk about the University of Ottawa's Institute for the Prevention of Crime, which found that a number of prevention policies and practices have been proven to reduce crime and victimization and to improve general well-being.

So, yes, there are tons and tons of examples of people who are saying that Bill C-10 is the wrong way to go.

[Matthew Dubé, NDP, Chambly—Borduas, QC]

Mr. Speaker, there is a term that I quite liked in the hon. member's speech and that is “risk factors”. It is very interesting. The idea is that all of us here are in favour of virtue and reducing crime, especially violent crime, as the hon. member put it so well. In the meantime, we all have different approaches.

The Minister of Justice often cites a poll from Quebec that says that every Quebecker is in favour of harsher sentences, but there is more to it than that. This does not necessarily mean they support the measures in Bill C-10, because that bill has a number of problems.

I would like the hon. member to say a few words about the fact that when we talk about risk factors, we are talking about issues in our society such as health and education. Now, not only are those issues not being addressed in order to reduce crime, but the provinces are being asked to dig into their budgets for these programs, to pay for this bill.

I would like the hon. member to elaborate on this problem.

[Lysane Blanchette-Lamothe, NDP, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

Mr. Speaker, allow me to share some of my experience to comment on this. I used to be a primary school teacher. Let me tell you, if every time a student did something the teacher did not like and the teacher turned around and gave that student lines to copy out, or some other form of punishment, that would not solve the problem in the long term, neither in the classroom nor in the school. Instead, young children need to be taught social skills. They need to be shown how to study, how to ask questions and how to express frustration. Indeed, repression is not the only method and it has also been proven not to be the most effective method. That is my comment.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to join in today's debate on Bill C-10.

As members are aware, the bill has been criticized on a number of grounds. One of the most frequent criticisms aimed at the bill was the fact that there were several amendments proposing mandatory minimum penalties, MMPs, for serious drug offences under the Controlled Drugs and Substances Act. No doubt, in part as a result of these criticisms, this part of the bill was subject to the greatest number of motions to amend. As we can see, in the end, that part of the bill was amended only once in committee.

As parliamentarians we have engaged in an impassioned debate on the issue of mandatory minimum penalties. In fact, for many parts of the bill the justice committee has spent 67 days hearing from 363 witnesses over the course of the last four years. That does not include the marathon sessions we spent at clause-by-clause consideration. I believe all members of the committee should be congratulated for their hard work. They put in a lot of hours and they worked very hard on this particular bill.

As I have just indicated, the minimum penalties for serious drug offences were often criticized. Some of the criticism appeared in the media and some was stated by witnesses appearing before the committee. I would like to take a few moments to deal with some of these criticisms.

One of the recurring criticisms of the mandatory minimum penalty provisions is that a person in possession of marijuana would receive a minimum penalty. I have to say that I found this particular criticism the most surprising. This is the fourth time that the Controlled Drugs and Substances Act, in relation to provisions of the bill, has been before Parliament.

These provisions have been exhaustively examined by the Senate Standing Committee on Legal and Constitutional Affairs and by the House of Commons Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights and they are clear. The Minister of Justice has appeared before these committees and he has repeatedly stated that these proposals do not apply to simple possession. He has frequently stated that the proposed mandatory minimum penalties would only apply to the most serious drug offences.

It is difficult to make it clear which offences do not fall under the ambit of these provisions, and yet this particular criticism continues to reappear. At this point I am forced to conclude that anyone who makes this criticism is of bad faith and that the criticism is only being made to suit other purposes.

Another criticism that is directed at the mandatory minimum provisions is the suggestion that someone who simply gives a joint of marijuana to a friend would be at risk of receiving the minimum penalty provided by the new provisions in the bill. The definition of trafficking in the CDSA includes giving a drug. Therefore, as a result, giving a joint would be necessarily caught by these new mandatory minimum provisions.

While it is true that giving a drug is included in the definition of trafficking, the provisions of the bill are clear. In order for the mandatory minimum provisions to apply to the offence of trafficking, there must exist one of the aggravating factors listed in the new provision dealing with trafficking. Here again the Minister of Justice has been clear: The application of mandatory minimum penalties would occur only if one or more of the listed aggravating factors were present during the commission of the offence.

A variation of this criticism has been that if a young adult were to give a marijuana joint to a friend while at school, the person giving the joint would be liable to a minimum penalty of two years' imprisonment. The argument here is that one of the aggravating factors is present, that trafficking has occurred in a school, and therefore the minimum penalty must apply.

Here again, the criticism is misplaced. Clause 39 of the bill at the very outset states that paragraph 5(3)(a) is subject to paragraph (a.1). Paragraph (a.1) provides a penalty of anyone trafficking in cannabis in an amount that is equal to or less than three kilograms. That penalty is a maximum term of imprisonment of up to five years.

The net effect of paragraphs 5(3)(a) and (a.1) taken together is to remove the offence of trafficking in amounts of three kilograms or less from the ambit of the minimum penalties for the offence of trafficking found in paragraph 5(3)(a). Therefore, a young person who gives a joint to a person while at school, were he or she to be prosecuted, would be liable to the ordinary penalty found in paragraph 5(3)(a.1) and not the minimum penalty of two years.

I would also like to say a few words about one of the motions directed at clause 43. This clause proposes a new subsection 10(4) to the CDSA which will allow a court to delay the imposition of the sentence so as to enable the offender to participate in a drug treatment program approved by the Attorney General, or to attend a treatment program under subsection 720(2) of the Criminal Code.

A significant number of individuals applying for admission into drug treatment courts are individuals who have committed prior serious drug offences, most notably trafficking and possession for the purposes of trafficking. These offenders would receive minimum penalties if the proposed mandatory minimum penalty regime is implemented.

Clause 43 creates an exemption from the application of mandatory minimum penalties for offenders who participate in treatment programs. These provisions will enable a judge to delay the application of the penalty while the offender participates in a treatment program, and will allow a judge to impose a penalty other than the minimum penalty if the offender successfully completes the treatment program.

The motion that I wish to comment on proposes adding a paragraph to clause 43. The new paragraph would add that the judge could delay sentencing for the offender convicted of a drug offence so he or she could attend and receive treatment for mental health issues, or attend a mental health treatment program approved by the Attorney General.

While I believe that this motion was well intentioned, I would like to point out that the provision being proposed in clause 43 is not necessarily for the treatment of drug-specific problems at the exclusion of all other problems that a drug offender may have. Indeed in my view, the reference to a treatment program under subsection 720(2) would allow a judge to permit the offender to attend any approved treatment program, including a program for mental health issues, provided of course there are treatment programs available and approved.

Our government recognizes that serious drug crimes, including marijuana grow operations and clandestine methamphetamine labs, continue to pose a threat to the safety of our streets and communities. Bill C-10 contains significant elements forming part of our strategy to address this problem.

The bill proposes amendments to strengthen the Controlled Drugs and Substances Act provisions regarding penalties for serious drug offences by ensuring these types of offences are punished by an imposition of mandatory minimum terms of imprisonment.

With these amendments, we are demonstrating this government's commitment to improving the safety and security of communities across Canada. Canadians want a justice system that has clear and strong laws that denounce and deter serious crimes, including serious drug crimes. They want laws that impose penalties that adequately reflect the serious nature of these crimes.

[Dany Morin, NDP, Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my Conservative colleague on the other side spoke about the treatment offered to prisoners, in particular for addiction. I like this approach that the government is looking to include. However, I do have some concerns. Correctional investigator Howard Sapers said that only one in five inmates has access in prison to programs for anger management or substance abuse.

I would like my Conservative colleague to tell me whether the government plans on expanding the measures in the crime bill to ensure that addicts have access to programs that will help them and will make our streets safer.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

Mr. Speaker, that is an interesting question. I would say to my colleague across the floor that in the last session of Parliament the public safety committee toured the prisons across this country, not all of them, but a number of them. We found that in fact there was a whole raft of programs available to people in prison.

If my colleague had had the opportunity to sit through the committee, he would have heard from other sides, not just Mr. Sapers, for whom I have a great deal of respect, but also from others. According to people who work inside the prison system, a number of prisoners refuse to take treatment.

In many cases, treatment is being offered, but it also has to be accepted. It is like the old adage that we can lead a horse to water, but we cannot make him drink. In the case of the federal prison system, we have increased mental health treatments in the facilities.

I am sure there is more to be done, and as we move forward, things will be done.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Mr. Speaker, there is a lot that I would like to say but I know that time is always our enemy here.

This government has invested a lot in the skills link program to keep youth from crime and to help re-educate folks who are dealing with a past conviction. Through the National Crime Prevention Centre, we invest a lot. My hon. colleague mentioned the significant investment in the institutions themselves in order to give programs to people to help them get back on track and be contributing citizens. At both ends, in fact, we are investing a lot of money.

My hon. colleague knows this file well and I appreciate his great work. Even where we have clearly underlined that the minimum sentences are for serious drug crime, for serious violent crime and for repeat crime, are these people also not able to apply for parole after one-third of that five year minimum and are they not also subject to release after two-thirds of that time unless the Parole Board deems that they should not be released? Is that not the case?

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

Mr. Speaker, in this country we do have parole systems and we do have systems that work to rehabilitate those people who are sent to prison. That is one of the interesting things. We frequently hear about the difference between what is happening in some jurisdictions outside of our borders where they do not have a parole system. We do have a parole system that works very well.

In some cases, we appreciate that we do need to make some changes with respect to the parole system, perhaps tighten it up and make the rules a bit different and a bit tighter. However, people need to understand that when individuals are sentenced to prison there is a certain prison term involved and it is not eliminated because of extremely early parole.

Although we have a parole system and it works very well, there are jurisdictions that are frequently related to that do not have a parole system. I think we should be proud of our system. It works to rehabilitate individuals who are sent to prison for serious crimes.

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I am rising to speak to Bill C-10, the safe streets and communities act. The New Democrats have put the safety of our communities as a top priority, but I feel that what gets lost in much of this discussion is that there are many roots to safety in our communities.

This bill has bundled together a number of previous pieces of legislation that were before the House and much has made about the fact that they were before the House, but it is important to remind members that roughly one-third of the members currently sitting in the House today did not have an opportunity to engage in debate and discussion when those bills were previously introduced. Part of our role as parliamentarians is to practise due diligence, as well as to scrutinize legislation that comes before us very thoroughly and ensure that Canadian interests are being broadly served.

I want to touch for a moment on the whole issue of safe streets and communities and refer to an article on November 14 in the Toronto Star. This was written by the Canadian Bar Association and it is entitled, “Ten reasons to oppose Bill C-10”. I will not go over all of the reasons because I think a number of members have ably outlined them. However, I will touch on a couple of points. It starts by saying:

Bill C-10 is titled The Safe Streets and Communities Act—an ironic name, considering that Canada already has some of the safest streets and communities in the world and a declining crime rate. This bill will do nothing to improve that state of affairs but, through its overreach and overreaction to imaginary problems, Bill C-10 could easily make it worse. It could eventually create the very problems it’s supposed to solve.

Bill C-10 will require new prisons; mandate incarceration for minor, non-violent offences; justify poor treatment of inmates and make their reintegration into society more difficult. Texas and California, among other jurisdictions, have already started down this road before changing course, realizing it cost too much and made their justice system worse. Canada is poised to repeat their mistake.

Earlier today, in response to a question I asked, I heard one of the members opposite ask why we would look south when we have our own justice system here, and so on. Of course, he is absolutely correct. We do have our own justice system here. However, I would argue that we should look at other countries that have tried similar strategies to see what the outcomes were. If the outcomes did not work in other countries, I cannot imagine why we would think they would work here.

The Canadian Bar Association went on to outline its 10 reasons and I will touch on a couple. It states:

1. Ignoring reality. Decades of research and experience have shown what actually reduces crime: (a) addressing child poverty, (b) providing services for the mentally ill and those afflicted with fetal alcohol spectrum disorder, (c) diverting young offenders from the adult justice system, and (d) rehabilitating prisoners, and helping them to reintegrate into society. Bill C-10 ignores these proven facts.

Number 4 on its list of 10 is as follows:

No proper inspection. Contrary to government claims, some parts of Bill C-10 have received no previous study by parliamentary committee. Other sections have been studied before and were changed—but, in Bill C-10, they’re back in their original form.

Number 9 on its list reads:

Victimizing the most vulnerable. With mandatory minimums replacing conditional sentences, people in remote, rural and northern communities will be shipped far from their families to serve time. Canada’s aboriginal people already represent up to 80% of inmates in institutions in the Prairies, a national embarrassment that Bill C-10 will make worse.

Number 10 reads:

How much money? With no reliable price tag for its recommendations, there is no way to responsibly decide the bill’s financial implications. What will Canadians sacrifice to pay for these initiatives? Will they be worth the cost?

In its conclusion, it said:

Canadians deserve accurate information about Bill C-10, its costs and its effects. This bill will change our country’s entire approach to crime at every stage of the justice system. It represents a huge step backwards; rather than prioritizing public safety, it emphasizes retribution above all else. It’s an approach that will make us less safe, less secure, and ultimately, less Canadian.

The Canadian Bar Association very ably outlined the concerns of many in the opposition and many people across this country.

A rally was held outside of my constituency office in Nanaimo last Thursday. I was in the House and was not able to speak to the people who were meeting but, contrary to what the Conservatives say, there are many Canadians who are absolutely concerned about the repercussions of this bill. This rally was about supporting people who are speaking out in opposition to Bill C-10. I have received hundreds of emails. In some of the side conversations that go on in the House, I have heard Conservative members say that they have had virtually no opposition to this bill and yet I can tell people that I have received hundreds of emails in opposition to this bill.

I want to touch for a moment on crime prevention because that is also one element that is lacking in this bill, not only crime prevention but the funds for crime prevention. I heard a previous member rhyme off a number of programs but the reality of it is that there is a link between poverty and crime. However, I do not want to underestimate the fact that there are many people who are not poor who commit crimes. We have had some very high-profile Canadians, one in particular who has been doing time in a U.S. jail for white collar crime. I just want to point out that poverty does not necessarily mean that one will end up committing a crime.

There is an article that was put together about child and youth crime prevention through social development. This paper very strongly urges the Government of Canada, this Parliament, to invest in children and youth as a crime prevention strategy. This paper was developed through the CCSD, the Canadian Council on Social Development.

The council says:

Crime prevention reduces the risks for future crime and victimization. But many of the assumptions we make about what works to prevent crime are ill-founded.

A landmark report prepared for the U.S. Congress concluded that some of the most common efforts to stop crime--such as boot camps, police Neighbourhood Watch programs, and drug education classes for children--don't even come close to reaching their objectives.

However, interventions focused on changing the underlying social conditions of children and youth--such as nurse visits to “at risk” families with infants, parenting classes, availability of recreational programs, and a focus on social competency skills in school, to name just a few--were found to decrease crime. This kind of approach is called crime prevention through social development.

It is a very lengthy report and I will not have time to read all of it into the record. I just want to read some excerpts from it. It has another section titled, “When kids flourish, crime doesn't”. It reads:

Social conditions such as housing, family income, and education leave their deepest marks on children and youth. Improvements in the social conditions have been shown to open up new vistas for young people who might otherwise end up behind bars.

Evaluations done in Canada, the U.S., Europe and other countries demonstrate that certain social interventions work, they are cost effective and they provide social benefits. Researchers now conclude that social intervention can yield positive, measurable benefits within three years. with reductions in crime of 25% to 50% within 10 years.

I will say those numbers again because I think they are important. An investment in children and youth can result in crime reduction rates of 25% to 50% within 10 years. Rather than subjecting people to crime, victims of crime, and families to all of that chaos that results when a family member commits a crime, surely that investment would be worth it for the health, safety and overall well-being of our communities and our country.

One study found that it costs taxpayers seven times more to achieve a 10% reduction in crime through incarceration rather than through a social development approach. Again, the council goes on to list the fact that if we invest in housing, education, clean drinking water, all of those things which I think every member of this House would acknowledge that if people have safe, clean, affordable housing, if they have good employment, if they have access to education, if they have all of that kind of social capital that we talk about, their chances of getting into trouble are greatly reduced.

In my closing minute I will touch on the fact that one of the other places where we need to invest is early childhood education. The University of British Columbia has a study that says for every dollar we invest in early childhood learning and care, we save $7 in the long run. That $7 is saved in the criminal justice system, in education, in income assistance and in health.

It is unfortunate that we are having a conversation in this House about a tough on crime bill that purportedly will make our communities safer when all of the evidence flies in the face of that.

I would urge this House to reconsider this action and that we talk about these investments in our communities instead so that we can actually prevent crime from happening and that our communities do become safer, healthier, happier places in which to live.

[Elizabeth May, Green, Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I would like the member to expand on how this bill protects children or fails to protect them. I note that some of the strong critics of the bill with concerns have included the Canadian Paediatric Society, and the Canadian Council of Child and Youth Advocates, particularly looking at the changes within the Youth Criminal Justice Act.

How do we ensure that we protect our young people, as everyone here wants to? We do not want children at risk from sexual predators. We do not want children at risk from exploitative child pornography. However, neither do we want to have a bill passed that the experts in child welfare find so badly wanting.