Debates of Feb. 6th, 2012

Ending the Long-Gun Registry Act

[Brent Rathgeber, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

Mr. Speaker, with respect to the constitutional jurisdiction, as the hon. member no doubt will be aware, there was a constitutional challenge led largely by my home province, the Province of Alberta, arguing as I have that the registry was in fact ultra vires because of a division of powers. That argument was not successful, because the courts ruled that it attempted to have a valid criminal purpose. “Attempted to” are the key words.

I think the evidence is borne out, if members listened to my and previous speakers' interventions, that it does not prevent crime and does not save lives. Therefore, the fact that it was an attempt at a valid criminal purpose does not make for a valid criminal result. For that reason, this registry has to be put to bed.

[Kerry-Lynne Findlay, Conservative, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Justice]

Mr. Speaker, with respect to the possession and acquisition licensing program, I understand that firearms will still require a licence. I wonder what the member feels about how that system works to protect the public.

[Brent Rathgeber, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

Mr. Speaker, as I said in my comments, I support the licensing mechanism because it deals with the individual.

The registry deals with the gun, the property. There is no correlation between safety and crime prevention and the gun. There is safety and crime prevention with respect to the person who uses the gun. To get a valid licence, people must pass criminal records checks and must have taken a firearms safety course and demonstrated they are capable of using that firearm safely.

I support the licensing mechanisms, which are unaltered by Bill C-19.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I cannot say I take any pleasure in rising to speak at report stage on Bill C-19, because I believe this bill represents the triumph of ideology and wedge politics over evidence and public safety.

Over the last 30 years, Canada has introduced numerous measures to tighten firearms control and has produced a system that has served us well, the twin system of licensing owners and registration of weapons. Why did we come to this system?

There are three main reasons that we have slowly but surely tightened our control over firearms in this country. Certainly there were spectacular tragedies, like those at École Polytechnique in Montreal, which caused us to pay the due attention we should have paid much earlier to this crisis. My colleague from Beauharnois—Salaberry talked in very personal terms about some of the suffering that was caused to students and their families in Montreal. Those victims and families worked very hard to get the government to set up this gun registry to try to prevent situations like this one in the future.

There were two other factors that were also at play. One of those was the very frequent use of firearms in domestic violence, which I will come back to in a second. The other was the very frequent use of firearms in suicides, particularly youth suicides. What is significant about firearms and suicides is that firearms are final. If people take pills and then change their mind, they can call an ambulance. If someone slashes his or her wrists, there is a chance. When a firearm is used to commit suicide, it is over.

These three things together cause us as a society to say we can and must do better in the control of firearms.

What evidence do we have of the effectiveness of this registry? In the short time I have, I want to talk about three pieces of very important evidence. The other side likes to say there is no evidence, and I will come back to talk about what I think they are doing in misusing information.

My first piece of evidence is the very strong support of police for the gun registry. We all know that long guns have killed about 80% of the officers killed on duty in this country. However, I do not think that fact is what has caused police organizations to support the bill. We also know they access the system about 14,000 times a day. The other side tries to discredit that by saying it is automatic and that it does not provide good information. From my personal experience as a police board member, I know police do not do things that waste their time; they are too busy. So if they are accessing the registry there is a good reason to do so. Police believe it to be a very useful tool. This was found in the RCMP evaluation of the Canadian firearms program in February 2010.

Also, almost without exception, police leaders and police associations support the gun registry, including the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police, the Canadian Police Association, the Canadian Association of Police Boards. I sit on the public safety committee where I am the vice-chair. What the government tried to do on that committee was to find individual police officers and individual researchers who would say they did not support the registry, when the overwhelming evidence was that police organizations, police leaders and those who work in the field of criminal justice find it to be effective.

The second piece of evidence we have comes from domestic violence. One in three women in this country killed by their husbands is shot, and 88% of them are shot with legally owned registered rifles and shotguns. Over the past five years, courts have ordered the revocation of 9,950 permits to own firearms. This has allowed police to go to those residences and pick up the firearms. While the other side said there was no evidence of the registry preventing deaths, I believe there are strong indications that many deaths were prevented by the seizure of arms from the 9,950 people the courts had determined were unstable and therefore should not have firearms in their possession. If this bill passes, the police will no longer be able to go with confidence to residences and pick up all the firearms there, only those the people wish to tell the police officer about.

As for the results, there are good statistics in this area. Gun-related spousal homicides are down 50% since the introduction of the registry. This is an undeniable fact. The use of long guns in suicide has also decreased by 69% since the introduction of the registry, with no evidence of a substitution of other methods. As I mentioned, the problem with guns and suicide is the finality of it. The Institut national de santé public du Québec estimates that 2,100 lives have been saved since the implementation of the registry. An excellent example of sophistry is the claim that we cannot prove a connection between those two. However, we can prove a correlation between the two and we must rely on these kinds of correlations.

Sure there have been concerns about the registry. There was definitely mismanagement of its implementation by the Liberals, long delays and huge cost overruns. When the Conservatives on the other side cite their cost figures, that is like water under the bridge. This is money that was, yes, wasted by the Liberal government, but it has already been spent and cannot be recovered.

There have been some other concerns about rural residents and first nations, and I certainly heard from them in my riding, especially about the criminalization of a first offence for failure to register a firearm. On this side of the House, we argued that could easily be fixed, and we suggested amendments to do that.

There have been concerns about the accuracy of a firearms registry. Again, on the other side, the members like to select their evidence and choose an earlier time before most of those problems with data entry were corrected. We have had more recent reports showing that most of the data which is entered is very correct. There is a very small 1% to 2% error rate. There are holes in the registry, as my hon. friend from Beauport—Limoilou said, because of the amnesties that had been granted, which created some doubt among Canadians about whether they were required to comply with this legislation. Most recent, that amnesty has been extended to 2013.

In 2010 the NDP introduced amendments to address those kinds of concerns. Four of those were put forward on this side of the House.

The first of those was decriminalizing the first-time failure to register. This would make a one-time failure to register a non-criminal ticket. However, a persistent refusal to register firearms would have remained a criminal offence. That is a good compromise, and in talking with people in my riding, they felt that would have solved their problem.

Second, the NDP suggested amendments in 2010 that would have placed a permanent ban in legislation on having a charge for registration. Therefore, we would take away a fee. I heard from first nations in my riding that the registration fees were a barrier for those who were involved in subsistence hunting. Taking away that fee, as we proposed in 2010, would have solved that problem.

A third problem was there were, apparently, releases of private information for the registry. We proposed amending the legislation so information could only be released for use in law enforcement or in court cases.

Finally, we proposed an amendment which said that we would add a legal guarantee of aboriginal treaty rights to the gun registry.

Instead of taking those compromises and trying to work with the opposition, the government proceeded with the complete abolition of the gun registry and added on, in this new version, the destruction of the data.

As the Conservatives have a majority in the House and are determined to proceed, we have been forced, at report stage, to suggest amendments to fix the worst parts of the bill as it stands. I see five things that need to be changed before the bill proceeds.

First, the bill fails to require owners to check for a valid licence before transferring a firearm. The other side likes to talk about criminals not registering their guns, but the bill, as it stands, would open a major door for criminals acquiring firearms because the seller of firearms would not have to check for a valid licence before transferring that weapon. Therefore, even if the government were right and the registry was not much of a deterrent to prevent criminals getting guns, now it would throw the doors wide open for criminals to purchase guns.

The second thing that needs to be fixed is this. Before the institution of the registry, businesses were required to keep records of the sale of non-restricted firearms. There is nothing in the bill that puts that requirement back. Yes, many responsible businesses will keep records, but many which might not be so responsible will not keep those records.

The third thing that needs to be fixed is we would no longer be tracking the loss, theft or destruction of non-prohibited and non-restricted weapons.

The fourth is that destroying the data would mean that there are some court cases in progress and some future court cases which might come forward where convictions could be obtained if they had data from the gun registry. That data would be destroyed and those people would walk free.

Finally, the bill would treat all non-prohibited, non-restricted weapons the same, meaning the Ruger Mini-14, which was used in Montreal in 1989 and in the Norway shootings, would now become an unregulated weapon in our country.

I believe the real agenda here is delivery by the government on a wedge issue promise, one which delivered great fundraising to the Conservatives and had a great deal of success in dividing the country. However, the arguments on the other side really depend on the selective use of information. I know the government likes to say that the police caucus on its side does not support the gun registry. It would surprise if opponents of the gun registry or police had run for another party. The government self-selected that caucus because of its opposition.

As I said earlier, we have seen arguments with select witnesses, select evidence and select research to support a hard-line position, which the government had already decided on before it came to debate in the House. Therefore, we are back to where we started, and that is the triumph of ideology and divisive politics over evidence and good public policy to keep Canadians safe.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

Mr. Speaker, what is the member's knowledge of rifles is? Has he ever shot a rifle? Has he ever belonged to a gun club? Has he ever owned a rifle? Does he have a family member who has one? Has he ever gone hunting? Has he gone to a first nations community where residents rely on hunting for sustenance? What kind of involvement does he have with weapons?

I would be interested to know because it seems to me that often people who have a personal interest in this, especially relating to hunting and fishing activities and having to rely on them for sustenance, have a more accurate depiction of what actually takes place with the gun registry and the realities of it.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I genuinely thank the member for his questions because the answer to all of them, except belonging to a gun club, is yes. My father and grandfather were hunters. I went pheasant and duck hunting with them when I was young. I have never belonged to a gun club. I have fired a rifle. I have gone hunting with my first nations friends. Again, I think that was an attempt to be a bit selective.

What I also rely on is my experience of 20 years working in the academic criminal justice system and the real research that has been done on the gun registry, my personal experience as a member of a police board and a member of a municipal council with the police force, which strongly supports the gun registry.

[Elizabeth May, Green, Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC]

Mr. Speaker, my hon. colleague is from the neighbouring riding of Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, nearly as beautiful as Saanich—Gulf Islands.

I do not know if he saw today's Victoria Times Colonist. Further evidence of the support for our local police forces in southern Vancouver Island is from a story today in the Times Colonist about the quick action, led by police Sergeant Dean Jantzen in Saanich, leading to an arrest based on the theft of many long guns. Sergeant Jantzen stated, “Access to the long-gun registry has been critical to advancing the speed of this investigation”.

I draw that to his attention and ask for further comments.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I will not start a debate with the hon. member from the neighbouring riding about whose riding is more beautiful because that will take all of our time. What she has to say certainly confirms my experience, as I said, as a police board member and then as a city councillor, where I very often heard from police forces that they used the gun registry for very good effect.

The other side also tends to neglect its use in solving crimes and getting convictions. That is the story the member is talking about today, that it helped police conduct an investigation, it will help get a conviction in court and it is an important tool for future crime prevention and, as the other side likes to say, keep criminals off the streets.

[Alain Giguère, NDP, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

Mr. Speaker, in response to our colleague from Alberta, I would say that we have talked a great deal about long guns for hunting. Unfortunately, long guns also include semi-automatic weapons with 40-round magazines. If the member from Alberta ever wants to go hunting, he should let us know. We will make sure that there is no one else around. A hunter who needs a 40-round semi-automatic weapon is a problem.

That is the main problem with the long gun registry. Guns that are in no way connected to hunting or even protecting farmland are legalized.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I believe the hon. member is quite right. One of the big holes that I pointed to in my speech is this treatment of not just hunting weapons, but all non-restricted and non-prohibited weapons, which includes sawed-off shotguns, which are manufactured as short-barrelled shotguns, and the Ruger Mini-14. It includes many very dangerous weapons that have nothing to do with hunting or sports shooting.

He is quite right and I really hope that at report stage we might at least be able to convince the government that there needs to be an acceptance of the NDP's amendment to ensure these kinds of guns are not freely available on our streets.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I was surprised to hear the earlier answer of my colleague. I did not understand in that area of Canada there were actually people who continued to hunt, and I am pleased to hear that

I have been an avid hunter for years, raised in northern Alberta, with many reserves in my constituency, about 19 in total. I am a registered trapper. In fact, I have three brothers who have traplines and continue to trap and have lodges and many aboriginal families continue to rely on moose, bear and elk for sustenance. I was pleased to hear that from the member. I understand he has been involved as an academic on some police boards and I am glad to hear that as well.

I had the opportunity to be a criminal lawyer in what I and most Canadians would consider to be probably the number one boom town of this century, and that being Fort McMurray. I was a very active litigator back in the nineties. I had the opportunity to defend murderers and people found guilty of aggravated assault.

Overall, guns were used a very small amount of time to commit these kinds of crimes. Members might be surprised to hear that knives were the predominant weapons of choice by these individuals. Indeed, I defended one particular person who was charged with murder. She killed her husband with a knife and was finally convicted of that, but as a result of other circumstances, battered wife syndrome, she received a lenient sentence.

I remember one particular occasion where an individual was stabbed with a fishing knife they were using to cook. I do remember some incidents where guns were used, but not where they were used to commit murder. When guns were successful in killing someone, it was usually done by accident. That is what I would like to talk a bit about today.

However, first, I want to advise the House and all those Canadians listening that I am totally in support of ending the long gun registry. I also want to thank the member for Yorkton—Melville, who was someone I particularly aspired to meet, prior to becoming a member of Parliament, because of his belief in ending the long gun registry and the waste it had caused.

I represent about 180,000 people who live in my constituency. I have lived there for 47 years. I want to let the House and Canadians know that during the time I ran for office and until this day, ending the long-gun registry is still the number one issue in my riding. In fact, an individual could raise more money by speaking about ending the long gun registry in politics than any other issue in my riding and, I understand, any other issue in western Canada. With that in mind, I suggest it is a very important issue for the people of western and rural Canada.

It is good to have a debate about this issue and I clearly understand, from listening to the members opposite, that there are issues on both sides of it. However, clearly, after this amount of time, I do not think there are any valid reasons to keep the long gun registry. Certainly, with my experience as a criminal lawyer, I do not believe police officers should rely on this instrument. Nor do I believe it is successfully utilized by them.

One of the things people need to do is educate themselves about firearms, first and foremost. I received a gift of a firearm when I was 12 years old. The first gift I remember receiving was a Remington .22 single shot rifle. I remember opening that gift at Christmas time and it was one of the greatest things I ever had.

My parents and older brothers trained and educated me on the use of the rifle. That is because they used weapons on a full-time basis on the trap lines and to provide food for our table. My father would not allow me to use the weapon for the longest period of time until I was fully trained on it and I understood the basic rules for its use.

I agree, quite frankly, with some of the rules that are currently in the Criminal Code with respect to weapons, one being locking up weapons. My father and my brothers locked up their weapons. They ensured they were out of reach of children. They ensured that we understood fully that we did not point a weapon at another person, whether it be loaded or not, and we always considered the weapon to be loaded, whether it was or not.

I was taught the basic rules and that is clearly what needs to be done with children and those people who want to use weapons at any time. We have an education system on weapons and it is mandatory to take the course to own weapons. I think that is as important as it is for people to lock weapons up and keep them under control.

I have had friends and family members who have been shot by weapons. Usually, as I said, it was by accident. However, the person pulling the trigger is the one who needs to be punished, as well as the people who do not properly storing their firearms, do not keep them under lock and key and allow them to be kept loaded.

A child was killed in Fort McMurray some 25 years ago. He was the brother of a friend of mine. He was killed at the young age of 12 years old. However, the person who had that weapon was storing it incorrectly and was punished for that. I think that is the proper thing to do.

This is very similar to other pieces of property. Vehicles are utilized on a daily basis in Canada but they can be used as a weapon. Certainly, under the Criminal Code, people do use them as a weapon and try to kill or maim other people. They are licensed but most people can drive vehicles who are over the age of 16 or 18 in this country.

Clearly, we need to ensure that people are adequately educated on weapons and that they keep track of them and store them. However, $2 billion spent on a gun registry that, quite frankly, accomplishes nothing is something that I do not think most Canadians agree with. In my riding, as I have said, it is still the number one issue.

We know there is a lack of knowledge on the other side in particular when we hear the previous member and members from other parties refer to sniper rifles. This was thrown around by the NDP as empty rhetoric. It only serves to confuse Canadians about what the real issues are. The opposition tries to pull emotional issues out, which do not really help in the debate. I do like having a good debate on this issue but I want to clarify once and for all that a sniper rifle is just a rifle that is used by a sniper. The terminology means nothing other than that. There is nothing more and nothing less to what a sniper rifle is. There is no difference between that firearm described by my colleague, the member for St. John's East, and any high-powered rifle used by hunters and target shooters. This type of misinformation shows, at best, a lack of basic firearm knowledge.

I am not sure of the name of the previous speaker's riding because it is the big city for the most part, but his basic knowledge and understanding of the firearms registry is merely an attempt by the NDP to confuse Canadians. It is misinformation that really does not add anything to the debate. In fact, I saw some NDP billboards featuring silhouettes of various firearms. These billboards of the firearms were used to confuse Canadians because those weapons are already restricted or prohibited and would not change under this new law.

Why would they put those pictures of prohibited and restricted weapons on the billboards? I think it goes further to what I am trying to put forward. They are adding nothing to the debate except to fear-monger and cause confusion for Canadians who are not educated on these particular issues.

It does come back to education. The issue here is that there are real arguments on the side of those people who want to get rid of this archaic and expensive piece of legislation that actually does nothing to keep Canadians safe. There are farmers, ranchers, hunters, trappers and sport shooters who have broken no laws and yet are criminalized by people who have nothing to do with it except on the basis of academia, such as the previous member.

Education is necessary in this place and it is for Canadians on the use of firearms and what they can do with those firearms. Children need to be trained and the people who utilize these weapons need full training and a full understanding of what they can do, because they can kill. However, it is the person who pulls the trigger who kills and not the rifle.

[Paulina Ayala, NDP, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the government is telling us that the registry is not foolproof insurance. But is that not the case for any insurance? According to the Conservatives, the registry should be destroyed because it is not 100% effective. According to this logic, Canadians should not only cancel their home insurance, they should burn down their house.

How can my colleague assess the real effectiveness of the registry if he will not consider the opinion of the police who use it?

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I am sorry but something must have been lost in translation. I am not sure what insurance policy the member is referring to. I do not think I referred to that in my remarks.

However, in relation to the member's comments generally, as a criminal lawyer I recognize one thing and that is that criminals do not register their guns. They do not have any respect for the law. To suggest that in some way registering guns will keep Canadians safe is absolutely ludicrous. It does not do anything for that. In fact, it will be the criminals who have the guns and the law-abiding citizens who will not. I have 14 rifles and I can assure members that the process for registering is ridiculous, has been ridiculous forever and is not accurate at all.

I am not sure what the member is talking about but criminals do not register their guns. They buy their guns and bring them over the border or get them shipped in. It is impossible to keep that under control. What we can do is ensure that the people who disobey the law and do use weapons to commit crimes are punished, and that is what this Conservative government is doing. We are ensuring that the people who do the crime do the time. The NDP should join us in that.

[Elizabeth May, Green, Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I extend to my hon. friend from Fort McMurray—Athabasca an invitation to visit southern Vancouver Island because it is not all big cities and lots of people go hunting. I am sure we could show him a good time if he came for a visit.

In the meantime, I wonder if he noticed the use of the long gun registry in another recent event. I mentioned earlier in response to my friend from Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca the use of the long gun registry in solving a crime just this week in Saanich. There was also an event just 11 days ago in the Sudbury area in which the long gun registry helped the police solve a crime.

The evidence from the police and particularly from the Canadian Association of Police Chiefs, despite the individuals here and there who have been made so much of by the Conservative Party benches, show that overall, as the many incidents confirm, they use the long gun registry to solve crimes. What will they use in its absence?

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

Mr. Speaker, how about police officers? It would be nice if the member from the Green Party and the members from the NDP would actually support this government when we put money into front-line police officers because they are the ones who actually solve the crimes.

To suggest that a computer system that is utilized by some police officers will be accurate on a continuous basis or that it will keep police officers or other Canadians safe is ludicrous. It is not kept up to date. There is no way to track the firearms themselves.

People may be able to pull a couple of things out of the air here and there to say that it has been effective but it has not been effective $2 billion worth. That is a lot of front-line police officers who can be trained and put on the streets to ensure Canadians are kept safe, because that, ultimately, is what it is about.

The NDP and the members opposite keep voting against those front-line police officers. That is why the police officers support the Conservative government.

[Dany Morin, NDP, Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, QC]

Mr. Speaker, given that I have very little time remaining, I would like to address my comments to the Conservative member, who I believe is just as reasonable as I am. The registry is not perfect but the NDP has made some suggestions that find a middle ground between abolishing the registry and maintaining it, such as decriminalizing the failure to register a firearm for first-time offenders and issuing the person involved a fine instead, or else indicating in the legislation that long gun owners would not have to absorb the registration costs. We proposed other amendments to the bill that the Conservatives refused to accept.

I am a reasonable politician and I believe that he is as well. Why did the Conservatives refuse to accept these amendments?

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I can assure the member that I am reasonable but keeping the long gun registry is not reasonable. It is not effective and it is not cost effective. I believe that users who use certain things like registries should pay for that. The NDP does not agree with that. Somebody has to pay for it ultimately. Bluntly, I think that Canadians need to pay for everything we do in this place, and we should keep that in mind when we bring forward ineffective programs like the long gun registry has been.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I am proud to stand and speak firmly against Bill C-19, An Act to amend the Criminal Code and the Firearms Act, ending the long-gun registry act.

For any Canadians watching, I think a fair summary of this legislation would say that it would do two things: First, it would eliminate the requirement to register non-restricted firearms or long guns; and second, it would destroy existing records of long gun registration that are currently held in the computer system accessed by police.

As a registration certificate would no longer be required to possess a non-restricted firearm, if this bill passes, certain offences in the Firearm's Act are amended or appealed and the Criminal Code would also be amended so that failure to hold a registration certificate for a non-restricted firearm would not give rise to any of the offences relating to unauthorized possession of a firearm and it would not allow police to seize a firearm. Previous versions of government bills to dismantle the registry did have a requirement for people to check that the person they were selling or giving away their long gun to was a licensed firearm owner. Earlier versions of this bill also allowed for businesses to keep records of the sale of long guns, as was the practice prior to the registry. This bill contains neither provision.

What I have learned since coming to the House and participating in this debate over the last three and a half years has been that this is a big country and we bring many different sensibilities to this debate of the long gun registry. I have noticed that there are differences regionally, socially and culturally. Part of a healthy democracy is that people come from various parts of our broad fabric and bring the different perspectives of the people who live in their riding. That is healthy and that has informed this debate. I commend all members of the House for their contributions to this debate. I also want to give my particular position on the bill and also try to represent what I think is the broad consensus of the people in Vancouver--Kingsway.

Here is how I basically approach the issue of gun registration. I operate from the assumption that a firearm, whether it is long gun, a handgun or any kind of gun, is inherently a dangerous product. It is one of those products that when used exactly as designed has the capacity to harm, injure or kill people or anything living. I come from the basic position that anyone who has the right to own such an implement has a corresponding responsibility and duty to ensure that dangerous product has certain parameters around it. Those include knowing where that object is and ensuring the object cannot be used to hurt other people. I come from the general perspective that tracking the possession of that implement, tracking the sale of it, is a good thing. I come from the point of view that us knowing where those dangerous items are is something that makes our society safer.

I also have come to believe, after talking to many police officers across the country, that the gun registry helps them solve crimes. We all know that there are many thefts and break-ins across the country on a daily basis. None of us likes that but it is a reality of Canadian life. When a gun is stolen and subsequently used in a crime, I am told by police officers that locating that gun, finding out where it was originally registered and what residence it was registered to, helps them trace it back to its original owner and helps them, ultimately, to solve crime with that piece of evidence. I think that a gun registry imbues those who own guns with a feeling of responsibility.

It has been said a few times, and I do not want to make light of this, that we licence dogs and cars in our country. We licence certain fertilizers because there are constituent parts that can be used to make bombs. When people go into hardware stores to buy simple fertilizers, we make those stores keep a registry of who buys the fertilizers because we recognize that they are dangerous products and if they get into the wrong hands they can cause injury and death.

I also think of the balance of convenience. What is being asked of Canadians when we establish a gun registry? We are asking people that as a consequence of their privilege and right to own that weapon they simply fill out a registration form which indicates to authorities that they are the registered owner of that particular item.

What inconvenience is caused to people? There is a lot of rhetoric on all sides of the House on this issue. In my sincerely held belief, we are not asking duck hunters and farmers to do much. We are not asking them to give up the right to own a firearm. They can own 10 firearms if they want. We are simply asking them to register their firearms as a sign of responsibility, just as we would ask them to do if they purchased a car, which they would do without complaint.

There has been a lot of talk by the government about there being no evidence of the efficacy and effectiveness of the gun registry. That is not my understanding and it is not my research.

A vast number of police forces across the land are supportive of the gun registry. They are not unanimous, but there is no unanimity on any issue in this country. I will read a couple of quotes.

Bill Blair, the chief of police in Toronto and the past president of the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police, said:

The registry gives officers information that keeps them safe. If the registry is taken from us, police officers may guess, but they cannot know. It could get them killed.

Chief Daniel Parkinson, president of the Ontario Association of Chiefs of Police, said:

Scrapping the federal Firearms Registry will put our officers at risk and undermine our ability to prevent and solve crimes.

The government talks a lot about victims. It claims to support the rights of victims better than any other party in the House, which I doubt, but that is what it says. Sue O'Sullivan, the federal victims' ombudsperson, said:

Though there are varying points of view, the majority of victims' groups we have spoken with continue to support keeping the long gun registry.

My friends opposite stand in the House and say there is no evidence from police, victims or anybody in this country that the gun registry is desired or supported, but that simply is not true. I have just given the House some examples of hundreds of quotes from police officers, victims' groups, people who work in the criminal justice system across this country who tell us on a daily basis that the long gun registry is effective in preventing and solving crimes and keeping people safe. This is coming from police officers, women, people who might be contemplating suicide.

It is a little surprising that the Conservatives want concrete proof positive of a direct causative relationship between the gun registry and saving lives. With the greatest of respect, I do not need that. We accept many things in life. In this chamber we make decisions. We pass laws that are based on the best educated information and evidence that if we take a certain step it will likely result in a different step. We do this with tax law for instance. If we provide a tax cut to corporations, the government suggests it will lead to a certain behaviour by those corporations, and that they will invest, or so goes the argument. Does the government have evidence of that? Is there concrete empirical evidence of that? Probably not, but we make that decision based on the best evidence and our best reasoning.

The same thing I would respectfully suggest applies to the gun registry. If we tell people that if they want to own a firearm, a weapon that can kill, maim and injure, then registering that weapon will make our country slightly safer. That to me is intuitively correct.

I want to talk about what differentiates our country from the country to the south. In our country we have had much tighter firearms regulations. I have always felt that makes Canada a safer place. We do not have the level of gun violence that there is in the United States. The major reason for that is that we have tighter gun regulations, and Canadians support that.

The Conservative government says that criminals will not register guns, but every member on the government side says the government stills want to have the registration process of the gun owner. Criminals do not apply for a firearms acquisition certificate either.

With the greatest of respect, this is sound public policy. I agree that a lot of money has been wasted by previous governments, but that money is sunk. This is a valuable tool for police and the people of this country. I urge all members of this House to put ideology aside and vote to keep our communities safe.

[Marc-André Morin, NDP, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Mr. Speaker, most of the people who have talked to me about the gun registry have asked me the same question. Where did the $2 billion spent on the registry go? People want to know where that money went before the registry is destroyed.

The Conservatives are so obsessed about economics, so why are they not asking themselves that question? Sure, they inherited a messed-up registry from the Liberals, but most of the mismanagement that made the registry so inefficient happened on the Conservatives' watch. Should the government not have a duty to the public to at least try to find out where the money went before destroying the registry?

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I agree with members on the government side when they point out what appears to be an unconscionable amount of money spent in setting up the registry by the previous Liberal government. I share that concern.

The 2006 Auditor General's report suggested that the entire Canadian firearms program, not just the registry, had hit $946 million by 2005. Recent information has also pointed out that the cost of the registry alone has stabilized at about $4 million of the total annual cost of $76.5 million for the Canadian firearms program. While all Canadians regret the amount of money that went toward setting up the registry, that money is gone, and it is a very small amount of money that is needed to keep the registry going.

We know the police access the registry 17,000 times a day. Police are using it. It is a valuable tool being utilized every day by police. I do not think we should throw out the baby with the bathwater.

[Frank Valeriote, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

Mr. Speaker, the member for Vancouver Kingsway talked about the need for first responders to know whether or not a gun is on site. He said that the licensing system in and of itself does not let them know how many guns are there, but the registry would let them know. In fact, it should be called a gun tracking system, not a registry system.

Does the member think that a police officer or a first responder should go in assuming there is a weapon? Would there be more value in going in knowing there may be a weapon? Could he talk about the value of knowing as opposed to having to assume?

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Mr. Speaker, that is an astute question. A key moment for me in making up my mind on this issue occurred when I was talking to police officers at an annual Canadian Police Association event on the Hill. I asked officers that very question. They told me that when they go to a house at 11:30 at night and it is dark, they will assume there are guns around. However, if they do not know, they are going to presume that there is one there and they will go around the back yard on high alert. If they see a shadow, if they see a cat move, they will not take any chances; their guns will be drawn. However, if they know there are no guns there, they will go in a little differently. They are always on alert but they will not go in on the same level of alert.

I hear catcalls from non-police officers on the government side. That is not what I said; it is what police officers told me. I take a lot more seriously what our men and women who are protecting us on the streets every day say.

The vast majority of police on the streets will tell us that they want the gun registry. It helps them do their job. It helps keep them safe. I will stand up for keeping police officers safe even if the Conservative government will not when it puts ideology above the safety of police officers.

Bill C-19--Notice of time allocation motion

[Peter Van Loan, Conservative, Leader of the Government in the House of Commons]

Mr. Speaker, I must advise that an agreement has not been reached under the provisions of Standing Orders 78(1) or 78(2) concerning the proceedings at report stage and third reading of Bill C-19, An Act to amend the Criminal Code and the Firearms Act.

Under the provisions of Standing Order 78(3), I give notice that a minister of the Crown will propose, at the next sitting, a motion to allot a specific number of days or hours for the consideration and disposal of proceedings at those stages. My plan is to allot one further day of debate at report stage and two days for third reading.

Report Stage

[Guy Lauzon, Conservative, Stormont—Dundas—South Glengarry, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I am definitely honoured to speak to Bill C-19, the ending the long gun registry act.

We are delivering on our government's commitment to scrap the wasteful and ineffective long gun registry once and for all. We have been clear and straightforward with Canadians. It is no secret that we have consistently opposed the long gun registry. For going on 17 years we have said that we are going to scrap it. I am truly excited to say that this is finally coming to fruition.

Last May Canadians gave our government a strong mandate to carry out their priorities. That means jobs. That means economic growth. That means a fair immigration system. That means safe streets and communities. That also means ending the wasteful and ineffective long gun registry.

Every member on this side of the House and every candidate who stood under the banner of the Conservative Party of Canada has stood shoulder to shoulder with law-abiding farmers, hunters and sports shooters all across this great land.

Our government believes that the requirement to register long guns has needlessly and unfairly targeted law-abiding Canadians. This may seem like a simple statement, but it is worth repeating. Criminals are predisposed to breaking the law and going against society. I say it is simple, but it is very clear that the NDP, the Liberals and all those who support the long gun registry do not understand this simple truism. If people are predisposed to breaking the law, why on earth would anyone think they would comply with needless, complicated paperwork? The answer is simple and clear to all reasonable people. It does not happen. Criminals do not register their guns.

I am confident when I stand here to assure everyone that the government has carefully examined all sides of the argument. I can unequivocally state that the long gun registry has been nothing but wasteful and totally ineffective.

Bill C-68 was introduced by Allan Rock and the Liberals in 1995 in the wake of the tragedy that took place at École Polytechnique. The horrific events that unfolded on December 6, 1989 are truly unbearable not only for the victims but also for Canadians as a whole. Let me state that the long gun registry did not, could not and would not have prevented Marc Lépine from taking the lives of those innocent women. There is no evidence that the long gun registry has ever stopped a single crime or saved a single life.

According to our state broadcaster, the CBC, since the long gun registry was created, it has cost Canadians in excess of $2 billion. That is money that should have been used to crack down on real crime and real criminals, not law-abiding farmers, hunters and sports shooters.

The majority of homicides committed in Canada did not even involve long guns. Statistics show that rifles and shotguns are not the problem. In reality, they are not the weapon of choice for criminals. The weapons used in crimes are primarily handguns which will continue to be registered. They are also usually illegally smuggled across the border or stolen and are not being caught by the registry.

Our government does believe that the right gun control laws do save lives, and our government will continue to take action to make our streets and communities safer.

Bill C-19 would continue the strict system of controlling restricted and prohibited firearms. Firearm owners who wish to acquire a firearm or ammunition would still require a valid licence. That would mean they must maintain a clean criminal record, pass a firearms safety course, as well as comply with all firearms safe storage and transportation requirements.

What Bill C-19 would specifically do is repeal the requirement for licensed firearms owners to register their non-restricted firearms. It is simple and it is practical.

All reasonable people agree that there is no need to continue a regime that has had no discernible effect in accomplishing its goal. This bill would also delete all the records of law-abiding long gun owners in the registry, as well as records under the control of chief firearms officers.

Some have criticized this portion of the bill. I would like to discuss why it is fundamental to fully scrap the wasteful and ineffective long gun registry. By force of the Criminal Code, the strongest power available to any government, data on law-abiding firearms owners has been collected over the last several years. By eliminating the registry, we would be returning some sanity to Canadian firearm laws. We could focus our efforts on real measures that have real results.

The question remains: What would happen to the data that was collected during the unfortunate period when the government decided to turn on its citizens and needlessly infringe on their privacy? To members on this side, the answer is very clear. In order to fully scrap the long gun registry, one must eliminate it in all its forms. Future gun owners would not be required to register their property. Current gun owners should be afforded the same protection of their privacy. Upon royal assent, the data would be destroyed.

To draw an analogy to illustrate this point, I would like to reference comments made by the Minister of Public Safety. He said that ending the long gun registry but keeping the data is akin to a farmer saying that he will sell his farm to someone so long as he gets to keep the land.

I have had the good fortune of campaigning in the riding of Stormont—Dundas—South Glengarry for the last five elections. The good people of Stormont—Dundas—South Glengarry decided to elect me four of those times. During those campaigns, not once did a person tell me that he or she would not vote for me because I supported the long gun registry. On the other hand, literally hundreds of people stopped me when I was campaigning and asked where I stood on the long gun registry. I told them that I supported the abolition of the long gun registry and they said I had their votes.

I heard some comments earlier about police officers. I can tell the House that police officers in uniform stopped me when I was campaigning and asked me that very question. When they heard that I supported the abolition of the long gun registry, they said they would vote for me and support me. As a matter of fact, in the last few elections off-duty police officers distributed lawn signs for me because I was in favour of abolishing the long gun registry.

Last May, when Canadians went to the polls, they made their choice loud and clear. They voted for a strong, stable majority Conservative government that will deliver on its promises. I would like those Canadians to join me today in saying our government has delivered. I am delighted that we will finally scrap the wasteful and ineffective long gun registry once and for all.

[Kennedy Stewart, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

Mr. Speaker, it is hard to get my head around this bill in some ways. I understand the Conservatives campaigned on getting rid of the long gun registry. What confuses me is this additional clause to destroy all the data that is associated with the registry.

I come from an academic background. Simon Fraser University is one of the best criminology schools in all of Canada. I am sure it could use this data to help police solve crimes. I would like to know if there will be any exemptions to allow academic researchers to access the registry as long as all the names are kept anonymous.