Debates of Sept. 18th, 2012

Enhancing Royal Canadian Mounted Police Accountability Act

[Tarik Brahmi, NDP, Saint-Jean, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I listened carefully to the speech from my colleague from Winnipeg North. He asked why the government has been dragging its feet and why did it take so long to put forward a piece of legislation concerning this very serious issue; that is, the sexual harassment at the RCMP. I agree with him. It is very serious. The government should have acted long before.

Why does he believe that the Liberal government, when it was in power before 2006, did not act and propose some piece of legislation concerning this very serious issue?

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

Mr. Speaker, I cannot help but notice that often the NDP will raise a question when we try to address an important issue and its members will say, “Why did the Liberals not address it?”

I suspect that if we were to do a Hansard check, we could be critical of the NDP. Why did it not raise it as an important issue in its capacity as an opposition party? Is it because it was a failure as an opposition party back then?

Issues come to the surface.

I can tell the member that, at the end of the day, if the Liberal Party were in government, whether it is today or in 2015, we would treat this issue as a priority because it is a priority for Canadians, not only for today but for the last few years since the commissioner highlighted the issue. We would be taking the action necessary to deal with the issue head-on, because we recognize the importance of sexual harassment. All in all, the Liberal Party has done its best in terms of trying to resolve it. Is it perfect? No. However, I can tell members that the NDP is no more perfect than the Liberal Party. That much I can guarantee.

At the end of the day, let us hope that the bill gets to committee and we are able to see some amendments brought forward that could enhance the bill. We owe it, I believe, to the victims of sexual harassment and to improve the image of our RCMP.

[Elizabeth May, Green, Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC]

Mr. Speaker, this bill is a long time coming and certainly we need improvements in RCMP accountability. These changes are welcome. I am particularly mindful, not just of the individual transgressions that come to light too late or that are sometimes put under the carpet, but of some rather high profile ones where the failure of the rights and powers of the public inquiry into the RCMP, when it was headed by Paul Kennedy, made it unable to put forward subpoena powers. In that way, former commissioner Zaccardelli refused to appear to explain why he put out a press release naming an hon. member of this House for something in which he had no involvement whatsoever. We needed to get to the bottom of that. It affected an election. We were unable to because the Commission for Public Complaints Against the RCMP had no subpoena powers.

I would like to ask my hon. friend if he would join me and urge the committee to call the former head of the Commission for Public Complaints Against the RCMP, Paul Kennedy, to provide his expertise on whether this is good enough or whether we need more improvements to this proposed law.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

Mr. Speaker, one of the things that I tried to emphasize during my comments was the fact that we have been afforded an opportunity by having the bill brought forward because of an RCMP commissioner. If the government really wanted to improve the system the best thing it could do is to approach the committee with an open mind so that there could be amendments brought forward, whether at the committee stage or perhaps at third reading. Those amendments could be given attention and listened to as to what people have to say about them. I suspect that there are likely a number of amendments that would improve the legislation.

I do not have any problem looking at good ideas, listening to why a member might feel it should pass and then voting accordingly. That is something the Liberal caucus has done in the past and will continue to do in the future. At the end of the day, we want to have and continue to promote the best police service in the world, the RCMP.

[Rosane Doré Lefebvre, NDP, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank the hon. member for Winnipeg North for his speech and for his interest in Bill C-42.

I believe that all members of the House agree that we need to examine this bill more thoroughly in committee to ensure that the amendments that need to be made to strengthen this bill are actually made.

I noted that, in his speech, my colleague criticized the Conservative government for taking so long to act. I agree with him. It took a very long time for this bill to be introduced, and our questions were being answered very evasively.

However, I still have more questions because we have been hearing about sexual harassment within the RCMP for years. We had already heard about it when the Liberal government was in power.

I do not know if my colleague can explain to me why the Liberals did not do anything to address these issues when they had the opportunity to do so before 2006.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

Mr. Speaker, I suspect that if we go back in Hansard what we would find is that the NDP in opposition rarely, if ever, raised the issue of sexual harassment within the RCMP. If I am wrong, I would challenge the member to show me where the NDP actually raised that specific issue.

Over the last number of years, the Commissioner of the RCMP has raised the profile of that particular issue. It has been debated more within the public over the last few years. The government did have a responsibility. If there was a Liberal government today we would have dealt with it a whole lot sooner.

I suspect that the member might not necessarily be satisfied with the answer, but I look forward to her providing me quotes from Hansard where the NDP raised the issue before 2010.

[John Rafferty, NDP, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I am happy to see you back in the chair again in this session after a summer of working hard for your constituents. I say that not to get extra time for my comments here, but to let you know that we are very pleased that you are here.

I will be supporting Bill C-42 at second reading because, while it falls short on a number of accounts, it is still a step in the right direction and should, hopefully, help the membership of the RCMP receive better personal protection in its workplace and could help restore public confidence in this institution. I say that because police officers like other first responders put their lives at risk every day when they are on the job and Canadians are very grateful for their sacrifices. It only makes sense that while they are busy protecting Canadians, the members of our RCMP staff can go to work knowing that they, themselves, are protected in their own workplace.

In a majority government the government has an opportunity to make a real difference and has an opportunity to take real action. Unfortunately the bill does not far enough. I will support it going to committee because I think in committee we can make this a bill that everyone in the House can be proud of as well as in the RCMP.

We can go further on these issues as there needs to be a clear anti-harassment policy in the RCMP, one which contains specific standards for behaviour and specific criteria for evaluating the performance of all employees. Such a policy is needed to serve as a basis for a fair, disciplined process, but will not be guaranteed, unfortunately, with the passage of Bill C-42 as it now stands.

Also, Bill C-42 does not go far enough in directly addressing the concerns of women serving in the RCMP. New Democrats are calling for urgent action to foster a more inclusive and safe environment for women in the RCMP. This bill has been introduced without the benefit of the findings of an internal gender audit of the RCMP, ordered by the commission that is currently under way but not yet completed. The Conservatives' approach does not make women in the RCMP a priority.

Another criticism I have heard from members of the public, who are affected and concerned about the implications of Bill C-42, is that the proposed new civilian complaints commission looks remarkably like the current RCMP public complaints commission, especially in that it would not be a fully independent commission reporting to the House of Commons. Instead, it would continue to report to the Minister of Public Safety.

The new commission would also have serious restrictions on its ability to undertake independent investigations and its findings would be presented only in the form of non-binding recommendations to the commissioner and to the minister. Removing these restrictions, allowing truly independent investigations and making those recommendations binding is needed. Removing these restrictions on the independence of the new commission will be a major issue for us at the committee stage.

The proposal also fails to create an agency with any teeth since primary investigations into accidents of death or serious bodily harm will largely be contracted out to municipal or provincial police forces, even though some of those police forces have no civilian investigation body or are still conducted by the RCMP itself.

Bill C-42 is a step in the right direction, so I will be supporting the bill at second reading in the hope of improving it at committee.

I believe our RCMP personnel deserve better and with some improvement I am certain that public trust will once again be restored in this most important national institution.

My hon. friend from Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca made some very interesting comments yesterday, and I would like to further some of the things he had to say.

The first is that we really should have had this legislation much sooner. There is an urgency for the public in terms of confidence in the RCMP. There is an issue where RCMP rank and file members are working in a workplace climate that is not always supportive of the difficult and the very dangerous work they do. Of course it is important to the RCMP leadership, which is charged with the task of making those necessary changes, but, first and foremost, I believe there is a necessity to restore the confidence of Canadians in our international police force.

The RCMP has long provided excellent service to Canadians coast to coast to coast, but over the previous years, dating back to the Liberal government, we have had increasing questions about incidents involving use of force where public confidence has waned in the RCMP. That is a problem, not just for the public, but also for serving members of the RCMP.

The bill's second purpose, as stated, is to promote transparency and public accountability in law enforcement. We could not agree more that this is essential if we are to meet the first objective, which is to restore public confidence in the RCMP. The only way to do that is through enhanced transparency and public accountability.

The third reason for reforming the RCMP Act, which is stated in the bill's preamble, deals with the relationship with provincial, regional and municipal governments that hold contracts with the RCMP. They have entered into those contracts in good faith, but often feel they do not have adequate input into the policing of their jurisdictions, or adequate accountability measures for the RCMP when they have questions about what has happened in those jurisdictions.

A fourth measure, also as stated in the preamble of the bill, is to promote the highest levels of conduct within the RCMP. This, of course, is a goal that is shared by governments, RCMP members and the public at large. Day in and day out the vast majority, virtually all of the RCMP members, strive to meet those levels of conduct. However, we need clear statements of what happens when those levels of conduct are not met, with clear consequences and procedures that would also protect the rights of RCMP members who have dedicated themselves to the service of Canadians so they do not find themselves subject to arbitrary procedures as part of discipline.

Finally, the bill's preamble states that we need to reform the legislation to create a framework for ongoing reform so we do not find ourselves in this situation again 25 years later, since government after government have failed to address these questions and failed to provide leadership on these issues.

We in the official opposition can agree on the goals expressed in the legislation and I believe we can go further. We can even agree on the key areas for action identified in the summary of the bill. Although the bill's summary counts the areas of action as only two vital areas, I would count three.

First, we agree that there needs to be action to strengthen the RCMP review and complaints body. The RCMP Public Complaints Commission has provided a valuable service, but we have concerns about its full independence and its ability to oversee independent investigations.

Second, we believe there needs to be a framework to handle investigation of serious incidents involving members, incidents that involve death or serious injury, which will help enhance transparency. In this day and age the public has said very clearly that it does not accept that the police forces investigate themselves in very serious incidents. We believe an independent investigation would not only benefit public confidence, but it would also benefit those who serve in the RCMP by guaranteeing the public would understand the outcome of those investigations and where their names are cleared, they would be cleared once and for all.

Finally, there needs to be action in the area to modernize discipline, grievance and human resource management processes.

The minister has cited anecdotal evidence of things that take way too long, and we all know that is true. However, what is lacking is that clear guidance for RCMP members of what those standards are and how a failure of those standards would be dealt with in a judicious and fair manner.

In addition, when RCMP members have grievances, they need to have the understanding that their concerns can be brought forward in a timely manner and that those grievances can be resolved and not drag on for many years.

Therefore, we do agree on the areas in which we need to make reforms to the RCMP Act.

In particular, we believe it is crucial to allow the RCMP commissioner reforms in the area of discipline to deal with the climate of sexual harassment that exists in the RCMP. We would like to see leadership from the government in mandating the commissioner to bring in a clear anti-harassment policy and a clear process, which would contain specific standards of behaviour with regard to sexual harassment and specific criteria for evaluating the performance of all employees in this important area.

However, having said how much we agree with the objectives of the legislation and with the areas that need to be reformed, I am not standing today in the House simply to present bouquets to the minister. We in the opposition have our concerns both about government inaction by Liberals and Conservatives and government inaction in particular in the areas of transparency and accountability.

The government has been in power since 2006. Yes, it inherited a record of inaction, but it has been six years, three ministers and two RCMP commissioners and we are just now embarking on the process to reform this legislation so we can get measures which would make a real difference in the performance and the work lives of RCMP members now in 2012.

In the meantime, more than 200 women members of the RCMP have joined lawsuits alleging sexual harassment within the RCMP. There has been an ongoing series of problems with loss of public confidence in the RCMP in investigations of serious incidents.

We have wasted valuable time. Numerous studies have presented solutions to these problems. I give the government credit for appointing a task force, which reported back in 2007, nearly five years ago. It reported back with important proposals for reforming the culture of the RCMP, discipline of the RCMP and important recommendations to the Public Complaints Commission.

An internal review was completed in 2008 of the process of using independent observers in police investigations of themselves.

In 2006 Mr. Justice O'Connor made recommendations in the Maher Arar inquiry with regard to the national security activities of the RCMP.

Most recently former public complaints commissioner Paul Kennedy made recommendations both on investigations of serious incidents, which was tabled in 2009, and also when he appeared before the justice committee in January of last year to give recommendations on increasing the independence of the job that he used to hold.

There is no shortage of advice available.

However, in a question that was asked earlier of the minister, it is unclear why the government chose to pick only certain recommendations and a certain piece of all of those reports. It is hard to see the overall theme that guides this legislation.

We have said that government leadership is required, and that means more than just legislation. Therefore, I cannot let this opportunity go by without pointing out some of what the government has done in the area of the RCMP and the Public Complaints Commission.

Just this past week, the government issued layoff notices to two staff members of the RCMP Public Complaints Commission when we are in the midst of reforming it and the commission is in the midst of a massive study of the sexual harassment complaints that have taken place in the RCMP. Why has the government chosen to lay off staff members at the complaints commission in the midst of this crisis over sexual harassment that the commission is trying to address?

Also in the last week, we saw layoff notices given to 149 support staff members of the RCMP across the country, including 42 support staff in British Columbia alone. These are people who provide important services to help the RCMP do its job on a daily basis. These were not uniform members who received layoff notices but people who work everywhere from the forensic labs to personnel recruiting and in all the other very important functions that support the basic duties of the RCMP.

When it comes to the Public Complaints Commission in the RCMP, the government has been following a peculiar practice. When Mr. Kennedy produced his strong recommendations on investigations, the response of the government was to fail to reappoint him to the job. Having appointed him in 2005 and giving him annual reappointments every year, when his very strong recommendations came out suddenly he was no longer the government's first choice for the job of public complaints commissioner.

Ian McPhail, the new interim commissioner, was initially given a one-year term as interim chair and has now been appointed for another year. I am emphasizing one year because we are talking about someone who should have independence from the government to do the job of providing civilian oversight for the RCMP. How can someone do that job with any confidence when at the end of every year he or she could lose his or her job?

While I am encouraged to see that the new legislation talks about terms of up to five years for the new chair of the civilian review agency, I am concerned that the government will continue its practice in making only annual appointments, which gives it far too much power over what should be an independent commission.

Those are just some of the concerns that I have outlined with respect to Bill C-42. However, I am happy to be part of the committee that will deal with these issues should it pass second reading.

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

Mr. Speaker, in view of recent incidents, one would reasonably conclude that the RCMP is a bit of a troubled institution. We have the Maher Arar incident and the difficulties with respect to Judge O'Connor criticizing the RCMP's conduct. We have David Brown commenting on the pension fund. We have the taser-related death of Mr. Dziekanski, the sexual harassment charges, et cetera.

My question has to do with this initiative by the government which, on the face of it, appears to be a good initiative. On the other hand, it may be just the appearance of something rather than a reality. I am wondering whether the hon. member has thought about these incidents in relation to this bill and has asked himself the fundamental question of whether the bill would enhance accountability, discipline and reaction to what are a demonstrable series of incidents that reflect poorly on our national police force?

[John Rafferty, NDP, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

Mr. Speaker, one of the situations we must deal with in this place day in and day out, month after month is where legislation comes forward and in most cases it seems, at least recently, the legislation has the background of a good idea. Unfortunately, however, the legislation does not go forward to create a situation where there is real action.

To speak specifically to my friend's question, it is beyond me why in a majority situation we would not have a government that was bolder and willing to present the kinds of bills where we would have real action, a real change and a real opportunity for change for all Canadians.

I hope the bill will go to committee where we will see if we can make it the legislation that we need in this country right now.

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

Mr. Speaker, in the spirit of carrying on this important conversation, which I think is important for the member who will be sitting on the committee and going through the bill, I will take, for example, the sexual harassment issues. The summary of the bill says that it will modernize discipline, grievance and human resource management processes for members. However, in this morning's papers we read that certain female members of the RCMP are unwilling to have their lives exposed to this kind of process. When we put the bill through that lens, how will the bill help those who are most fearful of exposing themselves to this particular process?

[John Rafferty, NDP, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

Mr. Speaker, it is important to note that there are many things missing from the bill. If the bill were to pass in its present form, I would be very hard pressed to support it. In fact, in its present form I would not support it at third reading.

We have an opportunity here to ensure that, in the case of sexual harassment and members of the RCMP coming forward, there is whistleblower protection and elements in the bill where individual RCMP members could have the confidence in their ability to come forward and deal with these issues.

I can assure my friend from Scarborough—Guildwood that if the bill were to pass in its present form I would not be supporting it.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

Mr. Speaker, before I pose a question I would ask what the required number is for quorum in the House of Commons?

[The Acting Speaker, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Is the member asking to seek quorum? I see quorum, so the hon. member may continue.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

Mr. Speaker, I understand that the government has made the decision to bring the bill forward when there is a great deal of criticism as to why it has taken so long over the last couple of years since the commissioner of the RCMP has raised the profile by saying that he does not have the authority to deal with the issue of harassment to the degree that he believes would be appropriate and which I think most parliamentarians would agree with.

Would the member provide some comment in regard to the role that the commissioner played in terms of us having the bill before us today?

[John Rafferty, NDP, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

Mr. Speaker, there has been some movement in the last couple of years, which the commissioner has been an important part of, but there has also been an increase in awareness, not only in this place but also in the general public in terms of the kinds of jobs that we ask RCMP members to do and the kinds of obstacles they have in performing their jobs to the best of their abilities.

I believe, as I said in my speech, that we are on the right path. Bill C-42 is a step forward but it is not a giant step forward. As we deal with this in the public safety committee, we in the New Democrats will ensure as much as possible that this bill gets changed for the better and we will work to ensure that happens so we can come back to the House with an amended bill that takes a giant step forward.

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

Mr. Speaker, it is not as if the hon. member and I are having a dialogue with each other but I want to discuss this a bit more in depth. What is it in structures of the commissioner and/or the management of the RCMP that do not enable it at this time to be able to provide a system of human resource control and justice particularly for the complainants in these sexual harassment cases?

[John Rafferty, NDP, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

Mr. Speaker, it is important to note that with a long-standing institution like the RCMP that has not had a lot of change, relatively speaking, in the course of its history, when it comes to reform it is always a big shock. It is a big shock to most of us in Canada and certainly within the RCMP.

The process is on its way but it is important that these reforms not be a one-time shot. It is important to ensure in this bill that there are ongoing reforms. This organization, like any other organization, is a living organism that continually changes. With some of the issues that we have been dealing with in the last few years with the RCMP, it is quite clear that this organization has been slow to change. With Bill C-42, we need to ensure that the mechanism exists to ensure that reform can happen on the basis that it is needed over the next 20, 30, 40 or 50 years so we do not have to revisit this and it can act as a body the way Canadians expect it to act.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to have an opportunity today to speak at second reading of Bill C-42. It is called An Act to amend the Royal Canadian Mounted Police Act and to make related and consequential amendments to other Acts, but the government has chosen to call it by its short title, the enhancing Royal Canadian Mounted Police accountability act. The government is fond of naming these bills in some sort of public relations move. This is intended to cover everything that is included in the act but also to respond to public concerns.

It is fair to say that the Royal Canadian Mounted Police was an institution that, up until recent years, had a great deal of respect among Canadians, whether they be members of the policing field or members of the general public who looked to the RCMP as the embodiment of a system of justice that had high standards of professionalism and respect from the public and from other police officers.

I started practising law in 1980 and in my early days the RCMP was known by other police forces as the senior police force in Canada. The police forces in my jurisdiction and others would look to the RCMP in terms of standards, whether they be of training, establishment of procedures and investigative procedures or standards of ethics and conduct, and this went on for many years.

I am only saying what many others have said before me, including members of the RCMP, many of whom I have spoken to over the last few years. There is a great deal of concern about the institution itself and about its ability to ensure the level of trust and respect that a police force demands. Others have rightly spoken about the high regard in which the RCMP is held throughout the world in terms of its effectiveness, its investigative ability and the forensic and technical expertise it has and lends to other forces throughout the world. In terms of training in other nations under various international agreements and United Nations efforts, we have made a significant contribution through the RCMP.

However, we have seen, at sometimes very senior levels of the RCMP, a failing that needs to be corrected. The most recent controversy has been about complaints of sexual harassment and, more importantly I suppose, the failure to adequately respond to the question of sexual harassment. Although we do have incidents of sexual harassment, as the report published today pointed out based on a survey of 426 members of the RCMP in British Columbia, the majority of respondents did not feel that the harassment was rampant inside the force. However, they expressed frustration at the handling of existing cases and the high number of unreported cases.

That is not saying it is rampant throughout the force, so we are not condemning the RCMP when we talk about the existence of sexual harassment cases. However, we are condemning the institution both for failing to respond properly to those incidents that have been reported and for failing to provide an atmosphere in which reporting can take place and—because primarily we are talking 99% of the time about women who are subject to such sexual harassment—in which they actually have a safe place to bring forth their complaints knowing it is the complaint that will be dealt with and not them.

That is important. It is important that the public have a clear understanding, belief, trust and faith in our senior police force representing the nation in symbolic ways, whether it be on our coins or through the musical ride. The RCMP is well known as a symbol of Canada and of respect. Even the ancient comment, which I suppose is praise, that the RCMP is the force that always gets its man or woman as the case may be, is emblematic of the esteem in which this organization is held in the popular culture of Canada. However it has to be fixed.

The question here is whether or not Bill C-42 is that fix. We know that the RCMP and the authorities within the RCMP need to be able to deal with bad behaviour. We know we need to have effective civilian oversight, and this has been commented on in various speeches here for many years. We also need a fair grievance procedure, one that ensures that grievances, whether they be about sexual harassment, pay and benefits or the conduct of some officer towards an individual, are dealt with fairly and in a timely manner. These are things that have to be done.

In this atmosphere, where we are talking about one of the principal recent reasons—the issue of sexual harassment—for the public outcry for accountability of RCMP officers and the force itself, what I find surprising is that in this bill we do not have a standard or even a statement with regard to sexual harassment and the unacceptability of it in an organization and in employment relationships. It may be a matter of policy in some organizations. In an institution of this nature, which is regarded as quasi-militaristic and has a hierarchy of authority where officers are expected to listen to and obey the commands of senior officers, more particularly there is a need to ensure that officers who have authority over others are prohibited and exhorted in a specific way not to abuse that authority, especially when it comes to the serious issue of sexual harassment.

Today's news, as mentioned by the previous speaker, is of the release of a survey done five or six months ago, interviewing a fairly large number of British Columbia members of the RCMP, and an internal report that found female members do not trust the force's system to deal with harassment complaints and frequently avoid reporting instances of perceived wrongdoing:

Participants strongly expressed that they were fearful of coming forward to report harassment as it could hinder promotional opportunities, have a negative impact on their careers, and possibly cause them to become a scapegoat for anything supervisors wanted to find fault with.

The opinion was also expressed that the RCMP is known for moving the complainant rather than dealing with the problem. In that context, I have to challenge the minister's statement in his speech yesterday that all we need to do is give the front-line managers power to make decisions, in fact, give them more power to deal with circumstances in situations.

We are supporting the bill at second reading and our public safety critic, the member for Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, spoke very eloquently yesterday on it. We are supporting it because we do know there is a need to fix some of the problems in the RCMP and provide for a greater accountability and an ability to deal with these problems. However, we want to ensure we do not see merely a pendulum swinging one way and then the other, giving more authority and power to those at the top without ensuring that the job that needs to be done gets done. This is what I see and fear about this legislation.

We need timelines to deal with grievances. We need timelines to deal with situations. We need standards, particularly around conduct and behaviour. In that respect, a code of conduct is a good thing. However, we also have to make sure there would be due process.

I have a worry that the checks and balances are not there when I see a grievance procedure that gives the commissioner final and binding decision-making authority that he can delegate to somebody else, who in turn can delegate it to somebody else below him or her. It would be a final and binding decision without any reference to third parties, civilians outside or standards that may exist in other elements of public life.

This is a concern that has been raised within the military where there are similar circumstances. The grievance boards do not have sufficient outside involvement and it is all done within the context of the military circumstances, just as with this bill, where there would be an internal grievance procedure that would not have the checks and balances we would want.

Many of the matters that are dealt with are not specifically policing matters but rather of compensation, fair treatment or whether a dinner allowance was properly awarded. Yes, these things should be dealt with quickly, but with fairness and not arbitrarily.

We need due process in terms of grievances and conduct that may result in dismissal without powers arbitrarily set with the commissioner. The proposed legislation would give the commissioner the absolute right to appoint or discharge members, but it could be subject to a conduct board, which is probably a good thing.

If we are going to have a code of conduct, we have to have someone able to interpret and apply it. However, from my opportunity to peruse it, it is not clear in this proposed legislation who would actually do that or who the members on the conduct board would be. This is something that the committee would look closely at. We would like to see a code of conduct that specifically prohibits and explains what sexual harassment is, for example.

We do have codes of conduct with respect to the use of force. Clearly, the conduct of the RCMP and policing communities in the use of force in certain circumstances is another issue that has brought about concerns from many people. We had the Dziekanski investigation and hearing in British Columbia and there are other instances throughout the country that question the behaviour of RCMP members and police officers on other forces. It is not an exclusive issue to the RCMP, but behaviour, standards and conduct are brought into question and challenged.

These are the subject of lawsuits in some cases, and inquiries and other investigations. There has to be a proper code of conduct for that. There has to be a disciplinary procedure when it is necessary to impose discipline. There has to be due process to ensure that officers themselves are protected when they find themselves accused of certain breaches of conduct. It has to be fair. I believe the word used yesterday by my colleague from Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca was “balance”. There has to be a balance struck that does not simply let the pendulum swing one way because there is a perception that there is insufficient authority being exercised.

I want to talk about something else that others have mentioned, namely that legislation alone is not going to change the culture within the RCMP. It has to come from leadership and education. It perhaps also has to come by involving people from outside the force, that is by having them come in to help in solving some of these problems. The RCMP internally has been aware of these problems; they are not new. There has been report after report expressing concerns about the structure of the RCMP and the problems there, yet we do not see solutions. They are not all going to come from the top. The leadership has to come from the top but other people can be brought in to solve the problems.

This is an internal report that was commissioned after Commissioner Paulson was appointed. The commissioner himself has vowed to root out so-called dark hearted behaviour in the RCMP. Rooting things out is one thing, but changing the culture is another. It is a little harder job. It is not simply a matter of passing legislation. It is a matter of replacing the culture with a new culture based on respect: respect for each other, respect for women, respect for citizens and respect for the fact that police officers are given significant authority to use force in keeping the peace. That is something that has to be used with great care. It is a big responsibility that we give to police officers. From those to whom that responsibility is given, much is expected.

What is interesting in the response to the internal report, a pretty damning report referred to in today's Globe and Mail, is that the majority of the respondents in the report said they had no faith in the current reporting process. That is why we have unreported cases of sexual harassment and other forms of harassment. That is a fairly damning conclusion by individual members of the RCMP in this internal report. This results in severe morale problems and also a lack of faith in senior officers and the structure itself.

One response by Deputy Commissioner Callens, who is the commanding officer of the B.C. RCMP, was to send more than a hundred officers for training to ensure greater timeliness and follow-up to complaint investigations. Indeed, this is what the RCMP said in a statement. Well, follow-up and timeliness is one thing, but there are also other aspects to this whole notion of how does sexual harassment exist in the first place. Why is it tolerated? Is there a culture of toleration? Is there something more deep seated that has to be dealt with outside of legislation but internally within the RCMP? It is a big job and they may need outside help to do that.

Therefore, I realize this is a big task and that the legislature cannot fix everything by legislation. Nonetheless, the legislation itself is a step in the right direction. We support the notion of having more authority to deal with problems and having things dealt with in a more timely fashion.

We are concerned about some of the measures here. There need to be a lot of changes in the bill before it will be acceptable to the official opposition. We will work assiduously in committee to help make that happen.

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I want to pick up on the last few minutes of the thoughtful speech by the hon. member, particularly the softer elements of the speech and the cultural issues around the RCMP.

Reading the report in the Globe and Mail quoted by the member, it is pretty obvious that any reporting of a sexual harassment issue by any female RCMP officer is a career killer. That is a well-entrenched view.

My colleague and I shared defence critic responsibilities a few months ago. He will know that the ombudsman has reported on the issue of the mental health of soldiers. One of the issues he and I talked about was stigmatization, which I want to relate to this particular issue, in this case the stigmatization of those who report and the impact it has on their career.

I wonder whether the hon. member has any thoughts or contributions to make with respect to what is essentially an inherent conflict between the person who might report and the person who might be in a position of authority to receive a report. What would the member like to see in the legislation to handle those kinds of almost structural conflicts?

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Mr. Speaker, regarding the comment by the member for Scarborough—Guildwood, I think it is very difficult.

I will talk about one thing I came across early in my career as a lawyer back in the eighties, the whole issue of domestic violence and how it was handled by police officers. It was a live issue.

In our jurisdiction, the police, in a rather enlightened way, invited members of the women's shelter and the women's movement to talk to police officers about domestic violence and how it worked.

Up until then it was very common for police to ignore violence against women, seeing it simply as a domestic matter that they would not interfere with. It took almost an education process by people outside of the police force, because the police culture had been such that the police would not get involved with domestic matters. It was seen as something they did not deal with. Even though it was assault or assault causing bodily harm, or intimidation, unlawful confinement and all kinds of other crimes, they did not deal with it. It took a long time to address that, with the assistance of the women's movement talking about what all of that meant.

From the reports we read and at least from what we see as the tip of the iceberg, it seems that within the RCMP there is almost a lack of understanding about what sexual harassment is, why it is wrong, and why it cannot be engaged in and why the culture has to change.

Maybe they have to bring in someone else from outside to help with that process. Maybe they have to have a separate process. If we are to go through a process of dealing with sexual harassment, instead of going directly up the line, maybe there should be another body dealing with that, one that has more understanding of what happens and is able to find a way, not just through discipline but also through—

[The Acting Speaker, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Order, please. I would remind hon. members to watch the chair from time to time. I realize that members want to address other members in the chamber, which is perfectly acceptable, but they should watch the chair on occasion so that the chair can indicate how the time is going.

Questions and comments. The hon. member for Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I, too, have benefited from the very thoughtful speech by my colleague from St. John's East on this topic.

I wonder if he has any reflections on the amount of time it has taken the government, which has been in power since 2006, to act on these issues, which we have all known exist in the RCMP.

Even after appointing its own task force, which tabled a report in 2007 called “Rebuilding the Trust”, here we are five years later and the government has brought in legislation that the minister himself admits has errors in its translation and text and appears to have been hurried at this point.

Does the member have any reflections on why it has taken the government so long to address these issues?

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Mr. Speaker, why does it take the government so long? I do not know how serious it is. There have been issues with the RCMP and the government seems to be well aware of them, but it is not prepared to take them head on. The government seems to be so bent on one idea of law and order and being tough on criminals that it is not moving fast enough to make sure the system is working right.

The fact that the bill is not really ready for prime time is clear evidence of that. The fact that the RCMP complaints commissioner, who was trying to be effective, was not reappointed, and that the government did not deal effectively with the recommendations of the O'Connor commission and others calling for a purely independent external review body with teeth all point to the fact that the government is not really serious. We are going to have to work hard to change that. Whether we will be successful or not, frankly I am not sure.

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I just want to pick up on the member's response to my earlier question, which I thought was a good analogy between the cultural change in the way police handled complaints about what was then called “wife beating” and now, at a time when this insight has not been translated into how the RCMP handles its own internal issues.

I wonder whether the hon. member could expand his thoughts on what we used to call in law Chinese walls, the ways in which matters that would have been inherently in internal conflict in a law firm would be handled so that the resolution of the dispute would not negatively impact on a career, relationships, and on a whole range of things that probably are beyond our understanding, and whether this bill could be shaped in that way. Will the member be making inquiries at committee on how the larger cultural context would be changed?

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Mr. Speaker, the member is on the right track. We can prohibit reprisals, but to make that effective is a different matter. As I am not a member of the committee, I would urge committee members to seek advice on that from people who know about these things. The legislation does not adequately address it right now. The mere fact of what it prohibits shows the many ways in which someone who complains might encounter reprisals of one form or another.

Again, perhaps there has to be someone very senior in the force who should be designated to be proactive on this, someone whose job would be to make sure that a complainant were not treated negatively as a result of a complaint. Having a specific officer or a specific division in charge of that might be one way.

As for Chinese walls, we cannot get around the fact that it is known that someone complained. Therefore, someone may need to have proactive role of taking on that responsibility. I would look to advice from experts perhaps to tell us how that could be done.