Debates of Dec. 10th, 2013

Situation in Ukraine

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

Mr. Chair, I appreciate the comments from the member. I cannot help but think in terms of one of the reasons why we have this situation in Ukraine today is because of maybe a fear factor between let us say Russia and Ukraine and the European Union, where there are those who stay closer to the European Union and a smaller portion who want to enhance Russia in a protective mode which is to their detriment. That is just a personal opinion.

The member made reference to the fact that in Canada we had free trade agreements with many countries. This is something in which the population as a whole in Ukraine recognizes the value, that it can continue on trade with Russia and have an agreement with the European Union. Further to that, ultimately it could have a free trade agreement with Canada. It is all a good thing if the political will were to move in that direction. The concern is the political will.

I am wondering if the member might want to provide comments in regard to the political will of the Ukrainian president and if the member has some thoughts on this.

[Bernard Trottier, Conservative, Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON]

Mr. Chair, I appreciate my colleague's comments. I think the core of the problem is really a lack of political will. On its merits, as my colleague can appreciate, additional free trade agreements are good for everyone involved. Freer trade results in freer opportunities, more opportunities and more prosperity for everyone.

As a distant observer, we shake our heads and ask why Ukraine would walk away from a tighter economic integration with Europe. There was a lack of political will. The Ukrainian administration did not want to get closer to Europe largely because it was pressured by Russia, let us be honest.

I also think there is a lack of political will on Europe's part. We all know that Europe has its own economic challenges. Looking at the prospect of having to extend billions of dollars to Ukraine so it can avoid default was a real challenge. Europe has had enough challenges in its own back yard with Greece, Portugal, Italy, Spain and other countries and it has really hesitated to say that it should put money forward at this time.

If there had been more political will, there should have been a way to make this happen. Therefore, we will continue encouraging our Minister of Foreign Affairs, our Prime Minister and others to engage with Ukraine and with Europe and drive them toward a closer economic integration.

[Wladyslaw Lizon, Conservative, Mississauga East—Cooksville, ON]

Mr. Chair, I am very honoured and proud to take part in this debate.

I would like to start by citing some historical aspects that have a lot of connection to this debate. The hon. member for Hamilton Centre mentioned that we are remembering Nelson Mandela, a great person who brought freedom to South Africa. As well, my colleague for Dauphin—Swan River—Marquette mentioned the invasion on Czechoslovakia, which I remember very well.

I grew up in Poland under a communist system. I was too young to remember the invasion of Hungary in 1956, as I was only two years old, but I remember very well the invasion of Czechoslovakia. I grew up only eight kilometres from the border. I remember the moving troops and planes flying for days in the sky to the south. I perhaps did not have a full understanding of what was going on, but this debate has had a great significance for me personally because the 32nd anniversary of the imposition of martial law in Poland happened on December 13, 1981. The communist government decided to break the solidarity movement that started on August 1980, the first free trade union in a Soviet-controlled communist country.

It is a kind of oxymoron that countries run by the working people would have a union to allow for human rights for working people, but that was the case. After a year and a half of relatively free movement, General Jaruzelski and the government decided to end this. Troops and riot police were brought in.

I was on strike with my fellow workers facing the tanks and riot police, which at that time in Poland were called ZOMO. Now, in Kiev they are called Berkut. They are trying to restore order.

The reason I speak of all of this is because we are having this debate with support from both sides of the House, and it is great that this is happening in our Canadian Parliament. However, on December 13, 1981, when I and my fellow workers and friends were listening to the radio, it was discouraging that the sitting prime minister of Canada sided with the oppressive regime of Poland.

[An hon. member]

Who?

[Wladyslaw Lizon, Conservative, Mississauga East—Cooksville, ON]

I guess it was Pierre Trudeau at that time.

That is why it is so encouraging that today we are joining together in support of those in the Ukraine who are asking for the right to decide on their own where their country should go. The decisions of where Ukraine should go should not be made in the Kremlin or anywhere else; they should be made by the Ukrainian people. They have the capacity to make their own decisions on where they want to go.

I would like to express my concern. This is compounded by the current economic situation that will not be improved by President Yanukovych shunning the European Union and the west, nor by his disregard for the collective will of the country's citizens.

The government and the people of Canada are determined to assist the development of the Ukraine's economy to help Ukraine to improve its standard of living and to benefit from the freedom of a rules-based economic system, absent of the constraints of corruption and inadequate governance.

The current economic climate is Ukraine is very troubled. In a most recent report, the World Bank has forecast 0% growth for Ukraine in 2013, citing a weak global environment and delays in domestic policy adjustments. The bank cited high fiscal debt levels and a need to proceed with structural adjustments. Indeed, the IMF has characterized Ukraine as off track. As well, Ukraine faces worsening liquidity conditions and a banking sector that shows structural weaknesses, while access to long-term funding for businesses is difficult.

The Ukrainian government's privatization program has also generated concern, as many believe it will only benefit Ukraine's oligarchs. An association agreement and a deep and comprehensive free trade area with the EU could have put Ukraine on the path to economic stability and prosperity. Instead, the Yanukovych government rejected the opportunity.

In the recent news I read, it is very troubling. Berkut cleared out the Maidan, the Independence Square in Kiev, and we do not know what will happen with the tent city that was set up there, but we should all be in support of the people in Maidan in Kiev in Ukraine.

[Pierre-Luc Dusseault, NDP, Sherbrooke, QC]

Mr. Chair, I would like to thank the hon. member for his excellent speech and for his knowledge of this part of Europe.

How does he think Canada could help resolve this crisis that is gripping Ukraine right now? What diplomatic measures does he feel the current government should use to try and resolve this crisis in Ukraine?

[Wladyslaw Lizon, Conservative, Mississauga East—Cooksville, ON]

Mr. Chair, I think that not only Canada but all the countries of the democratic world could contribute pressure for a dialogue to happen in Ukraine.

There is no solution in using force. What we are seeing now is an attempt to do this. Ukraine is not the first country where we have seen force used to solve a problem, and force should never be used to solve problems. Their problems should be solved by negotiation, by all sides talking to each other and coming to a conclusion that would put the country forward.

Canada and other countries could be really helpful in the dialogue.

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Minister of Employment and Social Development and Minister for Multiculturalism]

Mr. Chair, I was very moved by my colleague's comments, a reflection on his experience during the period of martial law in Poland. He highlighted how important the views of western democratic leaders actually are in situations. Not to compare today's Ukraine, as worrisome as the situation is, to the period of Soviet darkness, but the member pointed out how when Prime Minister Trudeau pointedly refused, the only western leader to refuse, to condemn the imposition of martial law in Poland, that was used by the communist regime as a tool of propaganda.

On the other hand, when President Reagan spoke about the evil empire behind the Iron Curtain, the western left may have mocked him, but refuseniks like Natan Sharansky realized that they had friends who were not going to give up on the fight for freedom.

Would the member like to comment on that and also express what I believe is the unanimous sense of this place that we condemn the use of force occurring right now, as we speak, in Kiev against the Euromaidan peaceful protesters, and that Canada will work with its allies to ensure that in the future, people who violate the fundamental rights of free protesters will be held to account.

[Wladyslaw Lizon, Conservative, Mississauga East—Cooksville, ON]

Mr. Chair, what is very important is that those people who are there on the square and of the square know that they have someone to support them. I know from my own experience that when we heard on the radio, as we had no TVs, that there were people supporting us in New York, Washington, Chicago and in Toronto. This is the encouragement and driving force for the people on the ground. They will use that force to make the change and that is why we are so important and that is why this debate is so important.

[Raymond Côté, NDP, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Mr. Chair, I will not hide the fact that it is with emotion that I am speaking tonight on the situation in Ukraine.

That emotion is tied, in part, to the speech and testimony of the previous speaker, who experienced the repression in Poland under the Soviet regime first-hand.

I am also emotional because of the interest I have had in Russian culture for many years now. I have read certain authors who were severely repressed in the Soviet Union. Those readings have helped me discover a rich world with very deep historic roots.

Whether we like it or not, Ukraine's future is closely tied to that of Russia. For the Ukrainian people, living under the rule of Russia and the Soviet Union—in recent history and in the past—was a denial of their culture, their identity and their dreams of controlling their own destiny.

This probably explains the reaction and the strong grassroots movement we have been seeing for the past few weeks. This grassroots movement is an echo of the fabled Orange Revolution, which took place nearly 10 years ago, when people refused to accept a set of circumstances linked not only to their leader at the time, but also to Russian control.

The issues related to this crisis and this grassroots movement are not just democratic and economic; they are also cultural and relate to the Ukrainian sense of identity. I would even say that they are spiritual; they have to do with the Ukrainian soul. This explains why the protesters reacted so strongly to President Viktor Yanukovych's scarcely justifiable decision regarding the legitimate aspirations of the Ukrainian people.

This decision basically constitutes a complete and sudden flip-flop on the part of President Viktor Yanukovych with regard to negotiations and the path his government had been on for some time, which involved creating and maintaining ties with Europe. Those ties were linked primarily to economic exchanges, but could have gone further. They could have allowed Ukrainians to improve their lot, first and foremost, but also to fully express their identity and their culture with real pride.

It therefore comes as no surprise that the people reacted so strongly. Of course, people felt threatened by the old Russian controls, which unfortunately still exist today as a result of current economic ties, the Ukraine's dependence on Russian oil, among other things, and strong economic exchanges.

These factors could well prevent the Ukraine from pursuing its efforts to take full charge of its destiny.

For people who have lived for so long, for centuries, under authoritarian regimes, especially under foreign regimes outside the Ukrainian nation, the path to democracy is obviously challenging, tortuous and very difficult. The current government was democratically elected, but now it is working to turn back the tide of progress, to reverse an entire process, a steady progression towards advances and achievements. It is obvious that President Yanukovych is either refusing to understand or is responding to interests other than the public good, the good of his fellow citizens.

Given these facts, how could we not denounce the government's violence against the protesters? How could we not denounce this denial of the people's will and aspirations? The people cannot act solely through an electoral process, but must also use other options such as the public forum to protest, engage or interact with the officials in power.

We must truly stand by the Ukrainian people. In fact, more than stand by, we must give them our unwavering support. They must be given the opportunity to grow in a process that is brand new, unlike ours. Indeed , we already have a democratic tradition. It is not that old, going back barely 150 years. However, our democratic tradition is the heir to ancient British traditions, a history that spans nearly a thousand years. One might even say it is our western heritage in general. Indeed, our close ties with the United States are also part of our evolution. Our institutions also developed alongside our American neighbours.

Likewise, Ukrainians must somehow respond to their environment, but this response cannot occur in isolation. It must have support, not only from European countries, but from Canada as well, especially since Canada has a reputation, indeed a certain status, that gives it an almost de facto power to mediate certain situations in the world. I have heard this throughout my two and a half years as an MP. In my riding, I keep in touch with various communities, especially in Central Africa. They have praised Canada's voice in the world and clearly told me that it was a voice of authority.

We must really use that voice. In that sense, I join my colleagues from the other parties who spoke about offering strong support to uphold this democratic process and to avoid abuses of power. Canada has to be a major player in Ukraine to help this fledgling democratic process triumph, mature and grow over the coming years. This will not be settled in a matter of days. Everyone agrees on that.

Let us make a commitment to the Ukrainian people and help them realize these legitimate aspirations.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

Mr. Chair, what was interesting was the cheap shot from the minister of human resources, who hopes to be prime minister some day, in regard to former Prime Minister Pierre Elliot Trudeau, someone who is held in very high esteem by a good number of Canadians.

Having said that, I want to conclude my remarks by reflecting on what Canadians as a whole have shared with members of all political parties on all sides of the House, that is that we are genuinely concerned about what is happening in Ukraine today. Whether one is a current leader of a political party, a critic or any member of Parliament inside this chamber, I do believe that what we ultimately want is what the population of Ukraine wants. What we are asking for is that there is a respect for rule of law, democracy, and that we ensure human rights are being protected. That is ultimately what it is that we would like to see. Would the member care to provide comment on that?

[Raymond Côté, NDP, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Mr. Chair, I thank my colleague for his remarks. When we compare their situation to ours, we feel compelled to reach out to the people of Ukraine.

I have lived in a country governed by the rule of law my entire life. It is very upsetting to see people risk their safety and even their lives in pursuit of their right to live in a democratic country. These people want to live in their own country. They want to fulfill their destiny and affirm their identity. This is a call that we absolutely must answer.

[Anne-Marie Day, NDP, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Mr. Speaker, we are approaching the end of a debate that I believe has been very fruitful, with the exception of a sour note from a member who sees communism everywhere. He might want to lighten up a bit. We would prefer to forget that speech. We must provide our collective support to Ukrainians.

I would like to put a question to my colleague, who gave an excellent speech. Could he tell us how we should support the actions of the Ukrainian people?

[Raymond Côté, NDP, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Mr. Chair, I thank my colleague from Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles for her question.

We can obviously take meaningful action when we are on the ground. We can also offer economic support. Beyond that, we can provide clear, consistent moral support. That is another must.

I repeat: the issues there go beyond the economy and democracy. We are talking about identity, about the survival of a culture that has been largely repressed.

We must take meaningful action and have a presence on the ground. We must bring to order a political power that has completely forgotten where it came from, that has completely forgotten the progress made in response to public demand in the past 10 years. These demands can never be suppressed or denied.

[The Deputy Chair, Conservative, Barry Devolin]

It being 10:15 p.m., pursuant to Standing Order 53(1), the committee will rise and I will leave the chair.

(Government Business No. 5 reported)

[The Acting Speaker, Conservative, Barry Devolin]

Merry Christmas everybody. Accordingly pursuant to an order made earlier today the House stands adjourned until Monday, January 27, 2014, at 11 a.m. pursuant to Standing Orders 28(2) and 24(1).

(The House adjourned at 10:15 p.m.)