Debates of Dec. 9th, 2013

Ethics

[Marc Garneau, Liberal, Westmount—Ville-Marie, QC]

Mr. Speaker, according to the RCMP, Senator Gerstein was willing to pay $32,000 to reimburse Mike Duffy. He was prepared to tamper with an independent audit by Deloitte by contacting Michael Runia to ask for confidential information. Senator Gerstein abused his power on the Standing Senate Committee on Banking, Trade and Commerce by denying the committee its right to question him.

Will the government ask Senator Gerstein and Michael Runia to appear tomorrow before the House of Commons Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics?

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Minister of Employment and Social Development and Minister for Multiculturalism]

Mr. Speaker, the member is asking a question about committee business in the other place. That is not the administrative responsibility of the government.

[Marc Garneau, Liberal, Westmount—Ville-Marie, QC]

Mr. Speaker, Conservatives in the Senate have been protecting Senator Gerstein from having to account for his actions, including agreeing to use donor money to pay a sitting Senator more than $32,000, seeking to corrupt an independent Senate audit by Deloitte, and abusing his position as chair of the banking committee to shut down an attempt by the committee to get him to come clean.

Will the government commit to calling Gerstein and auditor Michael Runia to testify tomorrow to the House ethics committee?

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Minister of Employment and Social Development and Minister for Multiculturalism]

Mr. Speaker, as I understand it, Deloitte has been clear that it conducted the audit in question in a completely independent fashion. With respect to what witnesses are called by Senate committees, that is the business of the Senate and the members.

If the member wants to put forward motions at committees of the House, he is welcome to do so. Those matters are dealt with by the House. They are not the administrative responsibility of the government.

[Marc Garneau, Liberal, Westmount—Ville-Marie, QC]

Mr. Speaker, for months, the Prime Minister and his department have hidden Ben Perrin's emails from the RCMP. It was only when the cops were loading the battering ram for the Langevin Block that the deleted emails suddenly became un-deleted.

Canadians do not believe that the most controlling Prime Minister in Canadian history knew nothing of the corruption and cover-up in his office. It is time to clear the air. Will the Prime Minister agree to release all of the emails they have handed over to the RCMP so that Canadians can judge for themselves?

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Minister of Employment and Social Development and Minister for Multiculturalism]

Mr. Speaker, I think the member does know that he is prone to exaggeration. He does know, however, that the Prime Minister's Office is co-operating with every request made of it by the—

[An hon. member]

Space does that to the mind. It is the zero gravity area in the mind.

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

Mr. Speaker, in fact, to the emails in question, the Privy Council Office has said:

We regret that we previously failed, even if inadvertently, to accurately inform you and the PMO...

Of course, the RCMP's ITO said:

I am not aware of any evidence that the prime minister was involved in the repayment or reimbursement of money to Senator Duffy or his lawyer.

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

Mr. Speaker, when the Senate scandal broke, the Prime Minister began to tell us his version of the facts. He told us three things on May 15. First, there was no legal agreement between Mr. Duffy and Mr. Wright. Second, Mr. Wright was the only one who knew about what had happened. Finally, there was only one payment. None of that is true. The RCMP has refuted all of it, every single bit.

What else is he hiding?

[Paul Calandra, Conservative, Parliamentary Secretary to the Prime Minister and for Intergovernmental Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, what the Prime Minister did do, as soon as he found out about these allegations in the media, was go back to his office and order that his office completely assist the RCMP in providing all the information the RCMP required. He also ensured that members of his staff provided waivers of solicitor-client privilege and waivers, through their legal counsel, with respect to the emails that were delivered to the RCMP.

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the NDP is the party of hope, so I always nurture the slim hope that I will get an intelligent response. Unfortunately, I am always disappointed.

Even if we pretend to believe that the Prime Minister knew absolutely nothing before May 15, we at least know that he got a briefing from his officials and employees on that date.

What was he told during that briefing? Who told him who was involved? What was the communications strategy? Did other members of his team lie to him, or did the Prime Minister ask for all of the information and deliberately decide to hide the truth from Canadians? What happened?

[Paul Calandra, Conservative, Parliamentary Secretary to the Prime Minister and for Intergovernmental Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, as we know, Senator Duffy approached the Prime Minister on February 13 to try to justify his inappropriately claimed expenses. The Prime Minister told him that, of course, he had to repay those expenses. Senator Duffy then went on TV and told all Canadians that he had actually used his own resources to repay those expenses. We know that was not, in fact, the case and that Nigel Wright actually repaid those expenses.

The Prime Minister found out about this on May 15 and made sure that his office provided complete co-operation and assistance to the RCMP and provided any emails and documentation they required.

[Chris Charlton, NDP, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

Mr. Speaker, we know from RCMP documents that Irving Gerstein spoke with Nigel Wright and Mike Duffy about using the Conservative Party fund to pay back former Conservative senator Mike Duffy's improper expenses.

When did the Prime Minister first learn that the party had offered to cover the entire payment? Was it on May 15?

[Paul Calandra, Conservative, Parliamentary Secretary to the Prime Minister and for Intergovernmental Affairs]

Again, Mr. Speaker, the party did not pay the expenses of Senator Duffy on this matter. As we have said, there was some legal assistance that was provided to the senator, but that, of course, is not unusual in any manner. We do assist members who require legal assistance.

As I have noted on a number of occasions, the Leader of the Opposition accepted the same legal assistance from his party, to the tune of hundreds of thousands of dollars. The difference is, of course, that we do not pay the judgments when we are found guilty. When the Leader of the Opposition was found guilty, his party actually paid the judgment as well as the legal fees. We do not do that.

[Chris Charlton, NDP, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

Mr. Speaker, if the Prime Minister knew that the Conservative Party had offered to pay Mike Duffy's illegally claimed expenses, and if the Prime Minister knew the Conservative Party had, in fact, paid for his legal bills, what did the Prime Minister have to say about Irving Gerstein's comments, from November 2, when he claimed the exact opposite? When can we expect the Prime Minister to sanction Mr. Gerstein for misleading Canadians?

[The Speaker, Andrew Scheer]

I did not hear anything in that question that touched on the administrative responsibility of the government. It seemed to be a question about party finances, and we have had previous rulings before on that.

The hon. member for Timmins—James Bay.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Mr. Speaker, the Conservatives have been claiming that they followed all the rules when they attempted to flush Ben Perrin's emails, but here is what the act says. It is an indictable offence to “destroy, mutilate or alter a record; falsify...or conceal a record” or to direct any person to do so.

It leads to the question of whether or not the Prime Minister's Office was involved in breaking the law with this cover-up. Will the parliamentary secretary tell us whether or not the government will support our motion at the ethics committee tomorrow to investigate this attempted destruction of Benjamin Perrin's emails?

[Paul Calandra, Conservative, Parliamentary Secretary to the Prime Minister and for Intergovernmental Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, of course, these emails were not destroyed. They were being held in a different file for different litigation. When the assistant clerk of the Privy Council discovered this, she made those emails immediately available to the RCMP.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I will repeat. It is an indictable offence to conceal a record.

Anyway, we are shaking our heads at the government, just like Canadians are shaking their heads at the failed Conservative candidate and now unelected, unaccountable Senator Jean-Guy Dagenais, who went to Speaker Kinsella offering to defend the Senate by attacking the NDP. The result was this bitter and bizarre personal attack against a standing, elected member of the House of Commons.

Is this really how the Conservatives are planning to restore the credibility of this disgraced institution? Will the Conservatives tell us who in the government was involved in this personal attack, and did the Prime Minister's Office help coordinate it?

[Paul Calandra, Conservative, Parliamentary Secretary to the Prime Minister and for Intergovernmental Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, let me say this. I do understand the frustrations of the people of Quebec with respect to the NDP members. Of course, for the people of Quebec, their priorities are like all other Canadians. They want a strong economy. They want job creation. They want open markets for their products. They want public safety and security. They want the investments in arts and culture we have been making. When it comes to those priorities, the people of Quebec know that the only people they can trust to deliver are the Conservative Party and this government.

[Lysane Blanchette-Lamothe, NDP, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

How ironic, Mr. Speaker. After seeing so many emails demonstrating just how much the Prime Minister's Office is pulling the strings in the Senate, we are trying to determine just how involved the Conservatives were in Senator Dagenais' insulting letter to my colleague, but we cannot get an answer. It is really quite ironic.

Let us continue with Senator Dagenais' exploits. He was the one who publicly opposed having the Auditor General examine Senate expenses. Can the Conservatives confirm that Senator Dagenais' expenses are in order?

[The Speaker, Andrew Scheer]

I think these questions about what may or may not take place in the other place are a matter for questions in the other place, but not for question period today.

The hon. member has a follow-up question. I will ask her to try to keep the purpose of her question to the administrative responsibilities of the government.

The hon. member for Pierrefonds—Dollard.

[Lysane Blanchette-Lamothe, NDP, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

Mr. Speaker, once again, let us continue with the exploits of Senator Dagenais, another senator who does not live in his senate division.

Not only did he oppose the Auditor General's review, but he refused to hear the testimony of Michael Runia, whom Mr. Gerstein tried to influence in the Duffy matter. For a former police officer to refuse to hear from a key witness, now that is really weak.

Does Senator Dagenais have something to hide? Did he refuse that of his own accord, or was he following instructions from the office—

[The Speaker, Andrew Scheer]

The purpose of question period is not to ask government members to answer for the actions of senators, but rather to ask them about the administration of government.

The hon. member for Terrebonne—Blainville.

Privacy

[Charmaine Borg, NDP, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to go back to the emails that magically vanished and then reappeared.

The emails were initially frozen because of unrelated legal litigation, that is the legal action dealing with the privacy breach at Human Resources and Skills Development Canada. We know that the RCMP now has Perrin's emails and that the matter is moving forward.

However, what about the privacy breach at Human Resources and Skills Development Canada? What is happening and when will the people affected be given answers?