Debates of Feb. 25th, 2013

Response to the Supreme Court of Canada Decision in R. v. Tse Act

[Hélène LeBlanc, NDP, LaSalle—Émard, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank my colleague for his speech, and especially for giving a very important perspective.

He is the official opposition science and technology critic, and has followed this issue very closely. When we talk about science, we are talking about facts and information, which enable us to make informed decisions here in Parliament.

In his conclusion, he wondered whether the bills that are currently before the House of Commons are balanced, or whether the government is still trying to introduce bills that are based on sensational reporting.

Does this bill strike a balance between public safety and the protection of privacy?

[Kennedy Stewart, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague from LaSalle—Émard for her question and for her very good work on the industry committee and as our industry critic. She is doing fine work, and it is a pleasure to work with her.

In terms of balance, I do not think the Conservatives have this right. In fact, I worry about the base premise they use to design policy in this area at all. For example, many members on that side of the House find the Charter of Rights and Freedoms an inconvenience. If they had their way, they would probably abolish it if they had a chance. That way they would be able to pursue these lines of inquiry. They would intrude into people's privacy in the name of crime and punishment. I think that is a mistake. We have to be vigilant to make sure they are not allowed to do that.

[Chris Charlton, NDP, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I have been following the debate all day, and I certainly know that the courts have established new parameters for the protection of privacy. We and all Canadians would expect the House to follow those parameters.

Most Canadians who were here for the debate on Bill C-30 have good reason to be concerned about the Conservatives' privacy legislation, and their record in this regard is far less than encouraging. The member started to talk about that in some detail, but for folks in my community of Hamilton Mountain that is probably the number one concern: How can we be assured that our privacy is protected, even though we understand there may be times when law enforcement officials need to be able to access some of that information? There has to be accountability. There has to be oversight. How can we make sure we are actually living within the spirit of what the courts are demanding of us?

I wonder if the member might want to take a couple more minutes, because I know his time here was brief, to talk about those issues in more detail.

[Kennedy Stewart, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

Mr. Speaker, in all these matters the key word is “reasonableness”. The state has to be reasonable. It is a democracy. We are elected to make the laws for Canada under guidance of the charter and our Constitution, as well as Supreme Court rulings, treaties and other things, but it is for us, as we sit here, to think how an average Canadian would think about these particular laws. Is this too intrusive? Is this getting the information we need?

I feel that on the other side of the House, members have not been reasonable in many cases. They have been pursuing an ideological line that is inconsistent. The two sides of their party are battling. The social Conservatives would like to intrude in all aspects of life, and then the libertarians would like the state to be non-existent. This causes them a lot of trouble on the other side of the House. Again, it is up to us to be vigilant to make sure we are reasonable in the laws we propose in this place.

[Lysane Blanchette-Lamothe, NDP, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I rise today to take part in the debate on Bill C-55, An Act to amend the Criminal Code, also known as the Response to the Supreme Court of Canada Decision in R. v. Tse Act.

Before I speak in more detail to Bill C-55, I would like to provide some background on the reasons for this bill.

In its ruling in R. v. Tse, the Supreme Court stated that section 184.4 of the Criminal Code, entitled “Interception in exceptional circumstances”, which was enacted in 1993, was unconstitutional because it did not include any accountability measures. The court gave Parliament until April 13, 2013, to amend the provision and make it constitutional.

Parliament has until April 13, 2013. That leaves 19 days until the deadline imposed by the Supreme Court of Canada, 19 days during which Parliament will sit and can work on this bill. I will come back to that point, but it is important in terms of the context of this debate.

What is section 184.4 of the Criminal Code? What exactly does it cover? What is the problem? Here is what the section states:

A peace officer may intercept, by means of any electro-magnetic, acoustic, mechanical or other device, a private communication where

(a) the peace officer believes on reasonable grounds that the urgency of the situation is such that an authorization could not, with reasonable diligence, be obtained under any other provision of this Part;

(b) the peace officer believes on reasonable grounds that such an interception is immediately necessary to prevent an unlawful act that would cause serious harm to any person or to property; [and here we are talking about serious harm, and I will come back to that]

(c) either the originator of the private communication or the person intended by the originator to receive it is the person who would perform the act that is likely to cause the harm or is the victim, or intended victim, of the harm.

In other words, section 184.4 of the Criminal Code allows a peace officer to intercept certain private communications without prior judicial authorization if the officer believes on reasonable grounds that the interception is immediately necessary to prevent an unlawful act that would cause serious harm, and provided that judicial authorization could not be obtained with reasonable diligence.

We are dealing with something that is pertinent, and we believe it is important. If a peace officer has—first—serious reasons for believing that—second—serious harm may occur and that waiting for authorization to intercept conversations could prevent the officer from intervening in time to prevent the harm, then we are dealing with something very important.

We agree that some peace officers must have this latitude in certain circumstances. However, Bill C-55 must strike a balance between, on the one hand, allowing peace officers to do their very important job, which is to protect society and the community, and, on the other hand, guaranteeing the right to privacy and not to be wiretapped without prior knowledge, or without knowing the reason. We doubt the bill can do so because no one can say whether or not a peace officer has reasonable cause for intercepting a communication.

That is the dilemma. How far can peace officers go in doing their job while protecting the individual's right to privacy?

The Conservatives' first response to this dilemma was Bill C-30. We have heard all about it because it caused an outcry from the public, the media, corporations, entrepreneurs and a number of public safety organizations. In short, there was a huge protest against the Conservatives' Bill C-30. They were forced to drop it because evidently it was very troubling and there was cause to be troubled.

The problem persisted. Section 184.4 violated a section of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. This issue definitely needed to be addressed and a solution needed to be found.

I am going back a bit. Section 184.4 threatens the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms because it does not provide for a monitoring mechanism and particularly because it does not require that notice be given to individuals whose private communications have been intercepted. Such a violation cannot be validated by the application of section 1 of the charter.

This is similar to what I was saying earlier: we are looking for that balance. Here, a section of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, which is dear to the hearts of all Canadians, is being violated by a provision of the Criminal Code, and that cannot be allowed to continue.

That is how we have come to be debating Bill C-55. An excerpt of the bill reads as follows:

(a) requires the Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness and the Attorney General of each province to report on the interceptions of private communications made under section 184.4...

We have here a sort of regulation requiring reporting on any interceptions. The bill goes on to say:

(b) provides that a person who has been the object of such an interception must be notified of the interception within a specified period...

The individual does not necessarily have to be notified the following day or the following week. This bill would once again regulate this potential surveillance by stating that it must be declared and that individuals under surveillance must be notified within a specified period.

(c) narrows the class of individuals who can make such an interception;

This is also important. We must clearly define who may conduct such surveillance.

Lastly:

(d) limits those interceptions to offences listed in section 183 of the Criminal Code.

This is another measure that regulates interceptions.

I will support Bill C-55 at second reading, for all the reasons I have mentioned, so that it can be examined in committee.

There is a problem. The Supreme Court of Canada has given Parliament a deadline to correct things. So let us get to it and carefully examine Bill C-55.

Earlier I spoke about Bill C-30, which became a scandal across Canada. I would like to say that Bill C-55 is nothing like Bill C-30. What we have before us is different, and that is encouraging.

This bill gives us, as parliamentarians, a better foundation to work with so we can fix the part of the Criminal Code that the Supreme Court of Canada has asked us to fix.

However, investigations must absolutely include oversight mechanisms and accountability measures. That is what the court said. I agree, as does my party, the NDP. We must ensure that Bill C-55 respects the rule of law, the Constitution and the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

That is why we think it is necessary to carefully examine this bill in committee. We must ensure that Bill C-55 is not another Bill C-30 and that all of the provisions are addressed properly.

Earlier, the minister told us not to worry, that Bill C-55 respects the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms and the Constitution. But he did not tell us how he verified that. I hope that he did not take the same measures he took for Bill C-30. We can take little comfort if he did.

Who was consulted? What measures were taken to ensure that Bill C-55 respects the Constitution and the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms?

That is important, and not just hypothetically speaking. It is important because this would not be the first time the Conservatives have introduced a bill without listening to the experts and without following democratic processes and procedures. Such bills must then be dismantled, shelved, debated, reworked and re-introduced. It is a waste of time for parliamentarians and it is an inefficient way to work. The Conservatives introduce flawed bills that anger the people and sometimes scare them as well.

We need to examine Bill C-55 seriously and ensure that the work is done well, in the interest of all Canadians.

[Hélène LeBlanc, NDP, LaSalle—Émard, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank my colleague for her speech.

She emphasized the fact that, while the bill before us today is not like Bill C-30, it must still be studied in committee so it can be amended and improved.

Does she think that this bill can benefit from the recommendations that will be made in committee?

[Lysane Blanchette-Lamothe, NDP, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague for her question. Unfortunately, I did not have time to deal with that issue in my speech. I had hoped to have an opportunity to address it.

Certain words and aspects of the bill lead us to believe that teamwork in committee will improve it.

For example, clause 2 of the bill now defines “police officer” and appears to limit the scope of the powers under section 184.4. Is this sufficient? Is the terminology correct and specific? When an element in the Criminal Code is changed, we must be sure that the terms are specific and consult with experts to find out how the terms may or may not be interpreted.

This is one example of the elements that the committee must work on to ensure that the bill corresponds to the mandate that the Supreme Court of Canada has given parliamentarians.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

Mr. Speaker, there is one other aspect we talked about earlier in the day, and that is the timing of the introduction of Bill C-55. The government had plenty of time to bring the bill forward. We asked why it waited so long before we had the opportunity to debate it. The government sat on it for almost a year. Today we are being asked to pass the bill not only to committee stage but to third reading and so forth before April 12.

Could the member provide some comment on how we are expected to expedite the passage of the bill?

[Lysane Blanchette-Lamothe, NDP, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

Mr. Speaker, all opposition members are disappointed to find themselves faced with a bill of such importance that should have been brought before this House a long time ago. We find ourselves with 19 days in which to give the bill serious consideration and ensure it is correctly formulated and meets expectations.

Why was the bill introduced only 19 days before the deadline set by the Supreme Court of Canada? Perhaps if the Conservatives had not introduced an aberration like Bill C-30, we would not be here today with only 19 days left. This is an excellent example that shows that if we work well, if we listen to the experts, if we consult Canadians and if we transcend partisanship, we can perhaps bring in good bills that provide solutions to problems and that do not need to be drafted, redrafted, overturned and then introduced in the House only 19 days before the deadline.

Work that is well done is good for all parliamentarians and all Canadians.

[Djaouida Sellah, NDP, Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I listened very carefully to my colleague’s speech. She stated that Bill C-55 was different from Bill C-30, which, as we know, was a spectacular failure for the Conservatives. As my colleague just mentioned, this is proof that the Conservative government is a slow learner.

However, the Supreme Court of Canada asked the government one year ago to amend section 184.4 to make it constitutional. Unfortunately, we have only 19 days to do so. I would like to hear my colleague’s comments on this matter.

[Lysane Blanchette-Lamothe, NDP, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my reply will be short, but it will be very clear.

As I said earlier, work that is done thoughtfully and with respect for Parliament as an institution is better for everyone and will maximize our chances of getting positive results.

I hope the Conservative government has learned from its mistakes and will act more reasonably, intelligently and responsibly in the future. I could go on and on.

[Glenn Thibeault, NDP, Sudbury, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank my colleagues for that great round of applause as I start my speech.

I am very pleased to rise today to stand up and talk about our points relating Bill C-55, An Act to amend the Criminal Code in response to the Supreme Court of Canada's decision.

I know that we are coming to this with 19 days to go before it is supposed to be taken care of. As New Democrats, we recognize the importance of this and will be supporting it at second reading. We are in favour of sending this legislation to committee for review.

This enactment amends the Criminal Code to provide, in response to the Supreme Court's decision, safeguards related to authorization to intercept private communications without prior judicial authorization under section 184.4 of the act.

Notably, the enactment states that it:

(a) requires the Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness and the Attorney General of each province to report on the interceptions of private communications made under section 184.4;

(b) provides that a person who has been the object of such an interception must be notified of the interception within a specified period;

(c) narrows the class of individuals who can make such an interception; and

(d) limits those interceptions to offences listed in section 183 of the Criminal Code.

I was talking earlier about how this really has come down to 19 days. I believe my colleague from Winnipeg North asked this question repeatedly today. The Conservatives have had a year to act on this. Why now, in the eleventh hour, are we having to deal with this so quickly? If they are truly looking at what can make great legislation, it is the debate and involvement of all members of Parliament from all sides.

However, once again, we see the Conservatives bringing forward legislation at the eleventh hour so that we all have to come together very quickly to try to pass something that we, of course, want to give due diligence and a good once over. Unfortunately, we have seen from the Conservatives time and time again the lack of opportunity for debate.

How many times is it now that the Conservatives have used time allocation to shut down debate when it comes to important bills? I believe that we are up into the 20s if not the 30s. We have seen budget bills and other legislation affecting the services Canadians rely on shut down at every opportunity. It is unfortunate that we once again have to come to an eleventh hour conversation to ensure that we can get legislation to committee.

This new legislation is simply an updated version of the wiretapping provisions the Supreme Court deemed to be unconstitutional. The court has established new parameters for the protection of privacy, and we expect this legislation to be in compliance with those standards.

Canadians have a good reason to be concerned about the Conservatives' privacy legislation. Their record in this area is not very encouraging. We need to continue working for the public to uphold the rule of law, the Constitution and the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

If we go back, not too long ago, we had the inception of Bill C-30. Back in February of 2012, the Conservative government tabled Bill C-30, which would give authorities the power to access the personal information of Canadians without a warrant. That bill raised serious concerns about personal privacy and fundamental rights and freedoms. Bill C-30 was a compilation of three bills that made up lawful access in the last parliamentary session: Bill C-50, Bill C-51 and Bill C-52. The Conservatives were then building on legislation first spearheaded to propose providing public safety authorities with surveillance powers over digital information in 1999. This led to a huge uproar from people from coast to coast to coast who were concerned about this legislation and how it would enable law enforcement to access a citizen's personal information without a warrant.

Right now, we have seen the Conservatives quickly change their tune in this new bill they have brought forward. With the government trying desperately to comply with the Supreme Court ruling within the prescribed time frame, which is April 13, 2013, the Supreme Court of Canada ruled that the authorization of the emergency power to intercept without authorization by the court in situations of imminent harm could be justified under the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

The Supreme Court held that section 184.4 of the Criminal Code, interception in exceptional circumstances, enacted in 1993, was unconstitutional because it did not include any accountability measures. The court gave Parliament until April 13, 2013, to amend the provision and make it constitutional.

The Conservatives have proposed amendments that appear to be a direct response to that decision in that they add safeguards to constitute notification and reporting under section 184.4 of the Criminal Code. The legislation would require giving a person 90 days' notice, subject to an extension granted by a judge after his or her private communications had been intercepted in situations of imminent harm.

These amendments would limit the authority of the police to use this provision. All peace officers can avail themselves of it at present and would restrict its use to offences listed in section 183 of the Criminal Code. The proposed amendments appear to be a direct response to the court's instruction.

If we are to look at those in a little more detail, 184.4 outlines:

A peace officer may intercept, by means of any electro-magnetic, acoustic, mechanical or other device, a private communication where

(a) the peace officer believes on reasonable grounds—

Reasonable grounds is very important.

—that the urgency of the situation is such that an authorization could not, with reasonable diligence, be obtained under any other provision of this Part;

(b) the peace officer believes on reasonable grounds that such an interception is immediately necessary to prevent an unlawful act that would cause serious harm to any person or to property; and

(c) either the originator of the private communication or the person intended by the originator to receive it is the person who would perform the act that is likely to cause the harm or is the victim, or intended victim, of the harm.

If we look at R. v. Tse, this appeal concerned the constitutionality of the emergency wiretap provision in section 184.4 of the Criminal Code.

In this case, the police used section 184.4 to carry out unauthorized, warrantless interceptions of private communications when the daughter of an alleged kidnapping victim began receiving calls from her father, stating that he was being held for ransom. Approximately 24 hours later, the police obtained a judicial authorization for continued interceptions pursuant to Standing Order 186 of the code.

The trial judge found that section 184.4 contravened the right to be free from unreasonable search or seizure under section 8 of the charter and that it was not a reasonable limit under section 1. The Crown appealed the declaration of unconstitutionality directly to this court. The Supreme Court dismissed the appeal.

Section 184.4 permits a peace officer to intercept certain private communications without prior judicial authorization if the officer believes, on reasonable grounds, that the interception is immediately necessary to prevent an unlawful act that would cause serious harm, provided judicial authorization could not be obtained with reasonable diligence.

In principle, Parliament may craft such a narrow emergency wiretap authority for exigent circumstances. The more difficult question is whether the particular power enacted in section 184.4 strikes a reasonable balance between an individual's right to be free from unreasonable searches or seizures and society's interest in preventing serious harm. To the extent that the power to intercept private communications without judicial authorization would be available only in circumstances to prevent serious harm, this section strikes an appropriate balance. However, section 184.4 violates section 8 of the charter, as it does not provide a mechanism for oversight and, more particularly, notice to persons whose private communications have been intercepted. This breach cannot be saved under section 1 of the charter.

When we look at all of those details, what do we truly want as New Democrats? What should we all want as parliamentarians? To start off, we are in favour of the legislation as presented being sent to committee for review. It is essential that we play our role as members of Parliament. It is essential for us to investigate measures that include oversight and accountability, which is also the court's opinion, and we expect nothing less. We will work for the public to uphold the rule of law, the Constitution and the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

Members do not have to take my or the NDP's word for it, as there are many others out there who validate it. Michael Geist in OpenMedia said:

—Bill C-30 may be dead, but lawful access surely is not. On the same day the government put the bill out its misery, it introduced Bill C-55 on warrantless wiretapping. Although the bill is ostensibly a response to last year's R v. Tse decision from the Supreme Court of Canada, much of the bill is lifted directly from Bill C-30.

As I mentioned earlier, Bill C-30, an act to enact the investigating and preventing criminal electronic communications act and to amend the Criminal Code and other acts, which was also referred to as the protecting children from Internet predators act, did many things. There was a lot to be said from coast to coast to coast about many of things presented in that bill.

At the time, we supported making changes to ensure that the police would have powers to address the emerging threats posed by cybercrime, and we supported efforts to bring policing into the digital age. However, a number of that legislation's provisions unnecessarily eroded the privacy rights of ordinary citizens. We believed that we could aggressively go after criminals at the time of Bill C-30 and punish them to the full extent of the law without making false comparisons to child pornographers and treating law-abiding Canadians like criminals.

To reiterate, Mr. Geist has mentioned some of his concerns with Bill C-30 that are emerging again with Bill C-55. If people like Mr. Geist are thinking this, then of course we need to get Bill C-55 to committee to review all of the things that were previously in Bill C-30 and that may now be in Bill C-55 and that Canadians from coast to coast to coast may be upset with.

To mention others' views on Bill C-55, Chris Parsons from the blog “Technology, Thoughts, and Trinkets” states:

—the Canadian government struggled to explain the legislation—and the need for all of its elements—to the public. In the face of public dispute over the legislation’s need the government sent the legislation to Committee before Second Reading. The Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police strongly supported the government, as did individual police chiefs from around the country. This extended to calls for examples of where the legislation would have helped to resolve criminal cases; to date, though, few substantive examples were found.

That sums it up right there.

Political pressure recently, in our opinion, led to the failure of Bill C-30. However, some of its measures have been reiterated in other federal legislative proposals. Civil libertarians have succeeded in their fight against lawful access, but it is important to note that some aspects of Bill C-30 were transferred outside the parliamentary process a few months ago, but the failure of Bill C-30 does not mean the non-parliamentary processes will be stopped as well.

Parliament is generally informed of the use of wiretapping so it can be aware of the frequency and the circumstances of its use. However, when 184.4 is invoked, there is no disclosure obligation. There is no need to let anyone know. The court stated that a requirement to keep records of the use of wiretapping, under 184.4, would also increase accountability, but would not be necessary if there was an obligation to provide prior notice.

In summary, we will support the bill at this time. We are in favour of the legislation getting to committee for review. However, it makes us want to ask some questions. It makes us wonder what precautions the government has taken to ensure the legislation is truly in compliance with the Supreme Court's ruling. We truly need more than 19 days to understand if this will be in compliance. Yes, we want to act quickly on this, but not at the eleventh hour.

Can the government explain how the Department of Justice's assessment of the legislation's compliance with the charter and the Constitution was carried out? Why has the government waited so long to address a relatively simple matter relating to freedom and public safety? We are pleased that the government listened to the public on Bill C-30 , and Bill C-55 seems to be a step in the right direction. However, why did the government dig its heels in for so long rather than admit it was wrong and work with the opposition to resolve the problem? As members of Parliament, we are here to work together to resolve problems. What measures from Bill C-30 has the government brought back and are now outside the scope of the House of Commons?

Those are some of the things we truly need to have addressed, now in this debate, the debate that we will carry on and the debate that we will have when the bill gets to the committee stage. Many of those questions will need to be answered. We hope we can get the answers from the government for those questions when we get to committee. Unfortunately, what we have seen time and time again is that is not the case. I can talk about committees that I have sat on where we have brought forward legitimate amendments, ideas and propositions and every one of them has been denied. The Conservatives do not accept amendments, they will not listen to reason and for some reason, they just do not get that we are all trying to do this together. We are in this together to try to make laws and legislation better from coast to coast to coast for Canadians.

At the end of the day, I hope this time—and we are always hoping that a glass is half full—that when it gets to committee, if we have amendments, if we recognize that something was missed in trying to deal in such a quick fashion on the Supreme Court's ruling, that we can work together to resolve it and get this done quickly.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

Mr. Speaker, section 184.4 does allow for exceptional powers regarding warrantless access for personal information and we should all be concerned about ensuring safeguards are put into place. After all, these things are part of our Charter of Rights and our Constitution and which provide assurances to Canadians that their personal rights will be respected.

Bill C-55 will be going to committee. It is very important to recognize, given the lateness of the bill coming forward, that there will be a need for us to be open-minded at committee stage and hopefully see some possible changes that would deal with the concerns individuals might have with regard to the privacy issue.

One of the examples to which I made reference was a situation where an individual's phone line was tapped and a warrant was not required, that there needed to be notification time. The legislation suggests 90 days. That should be talked about, building on those safeguards. The member may want to comment on that.

[Glenn Thibeault, NDP, Sudbury, ON]

Mr. Speaker, my hon. colleague brings forward a very valid point in his question. A lot of pieces of the legislation will need to be dealt with and talked about.

I agree that we need to be open-minded. I am sure those of us on this side of the House will be when we go to committee. When the members of Parliament who sit on the justice committee attend the justice committee hearings on this, we will be open-minded because we will have to try to resolve this very quickly.

I was talking to some of the validators earlier, like Michael Geist. There are some very serious concerns from stakeholders in the community that this bill may be bringing forward some of the issues and problems we had with Bill C-30.

We need to ensure that anything to do with Bill C-30 is done and this is addressing the Supreme Court decision. However, when we have 19 days before this has to be completed because of the Supreme Court decision, it makes us wonder why we are again debating something in the House at the eleventh hour.

I hope we do go to committee with an open mind to try to get a lot of the issues we are concerned about resolved.

[Carol Hughes, NDP, Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I am glad my colleague from Sudbury mentioned the concerns of Michael Geist because we have been aware of the public's concerns about wiretapping for some time.

That is why we wish to assess whether the legislation complies. As my colleague says, it is important to send the bill to committee because of the decision of the Supreme Court in R. v. Tse.

We have seen the government, over and over again, rush through legislation without any amendments, as he has mentioned before, saying that it is right and it needs to move the legislation really quickly.

The problem with moving legislation very quickly and not making any amendments based on what we have heard from testimony, really prevents us from having the i's dotted and the t's crossed. The next thing we know the government is before the courts again, which costs taxpayer dollars.

Maybe he could elaborate on the importance of dotting the i's and crossing the t's and being very sensitive to the changes that need to be done when they are recommended. As he said, over and over again at committee the government is more intent on pushing through legislation without making the necessary amendments that would prevent it from finding itself before the courts.

[Glenn Thibeault, NDP, Sudbury, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague from Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing for her question and for being forthright about what we have been experiencing as opposition MPs at many of the committees we attend.

We have said all along, even before our late leader, Jack Layton, passed away, that yes, we are the official opposition, but we also want to be the party that brings forward propositions. When we go to committee, we are not going there just to oppose. We are two different parties, and we know we are going to oppose certain things. However, on many occasions we do try to bring forward amendments that we think will make the laws better for all Canadians, so why is it that every time we do so, they are shot down? They are shot down time and time again, and many times during routine proceedings we will have members from the Conservative Party stand up as chairs, very proud to present a report with no amendments. How can that be, when every other party in this House is bringing forward ideas and suggestions to make the laws better?

[An hon. member]

As are the witnesses.

[Glenn Thibeault, NDP, Sudbury, ON]

As are the witnesses; that is a very good point from my colleague in front. The witnesses and stakeholders are also bringing forward recommendations, and we are utilizing some of those. However, right now we are seeing a continuation of deny, deny, deny and the Conservatives saying that everything they are doing is great, while we see perfect examples like Bill C-30, which was not a good piece of legislation. We need to continue to debate this in committee.

[Laurin Liu, NDP, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Mr. Speaker, as my colleague mentioned, Bill C-30 was a complete disaster. Canadians strongly opposed that bill. However, Bill C-55 appears to be a step in the right direction.

Can my colleague explain why we have only 19 days to debate this bill? Why is the government improvising on this?

[Glenn Thibeault, NDP, Sudbury, ON]

Mr. Speaker, we beg to differ. Why does one wait for the eleventh hour; why wait 19 days when we knew this was coming? I was asked why I think the Conservatives waited so long. Let us just look at their history. Let us just look over the last couple of years. We have seen bill after bill being introduced, from budget bills to other types of legislation, changing and affecting the lives of Canadians, and time limits have been put on the debate in this House every single time. Here it is again, only this time it is just done in a different way. The time limit this time is done when they are introducing it. They are introducing it with 19 days to get it through.

The answer is very simple. Let us look at the Conservatives' past history and practices. They are stopping debate on their other areas and not allowing it to continue on when we need good, thorough debate to create good, solid laws for Canadians. Then, when they do not put time allocation on, they introduce bills with a deadline that we have to meet that is put forward by the Supreme Court, when we knew we could have done this a long time ago.

Their practice and their history have truly demonstrated why they are doing things like this and ensuring debate is quick in the House and in committee.

[The Deputy Speaker, NDP, Joe Comartin]

Is the House ready for the question?

[Some hon. members]

Question.

[The Deputy Speaker, NDP, Joe Comartin]

The question is on the motion. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Deputy Speaker, NDP, Joe Comartin]

I declare the motion carried.

(Motion agreed to, bill read the second time and referred to a committee)