Debates of June 5th, 2013

Opposition Motion—The Senate

[John McCallum, Liberal, Markham—Unionville, ON]

Mr. Speaker, of course we think that people should pay the money back, and then it is up to the authorities to decide whether or not to lay criminal charges.

However, I wonder if the hon. member was listening to my speech. I tried to explain in very simple language that this is a ridiculous motion, the effect of which would be to close down the whole federal government.

I do not know how any of the NDP members can continue to support their own motion, which would have disastrous effects on this country and which would never have been put by anybody who had the slightest understanding of how the government works.

[The Acting Speaker, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Order, please. I just want to advise hon. members that there is a great deal of interest in questions and comments today. I would ask hon. members to keep their interventions to no more than a minute. That also applies to those who are responding.

The hon. member for Winnipeg South Centre.

[Joyce Bateman, Conservative, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Mr. Speaker, I really appreciate the comments from the hon. member for Markham—Unionville. Specifically, I have two questions for this gentleman, who is a lawyer and has a lot of background.

It is somewhat alarming that the motion put forward by the NDP today is not constitutional. We heard earlier from the hon. minister that even a five-year-old child has to be told about process and the importance of process.

Therefore, my first question for the hon. member is, could he comment on the process, because I personally found the speech somewhat alarming?

As for the second question, when there was a coalition being considered in 2008, as the member would know very clearly, the New Democrats were already naming whom they would appoint to the Senate. Could he enlighten us on that issue?

[John McCallum, Liberal, Markham—Unionville, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I do not take this as an insult, but I am not a lawyer; I am an economist.

The process was described in that long quote I had from my colleague as “one sensible process”. This motion is just ridiculous, as I said earlier, but we cannot really do anything on the process until we hear from the Supreme Court. We had recommended a year ago to refer to the Supreme Court and finally the government has. Therefore, I do not think there is much point in having big discussions on Senate reform until we hear from the Supreme Court, because that will tell us the legitimate constitutional paths.

[Sean Casey, Liberal, Charlottetown, PE]

Mr. Speaker, I very much enjoyed the speech by the member for Markham—Unionville. He posed a question that I would like to hear the answer to.

He indicated that this motion is grounded in one of three possibilities: it is a cynical political stunt, it reflects a misunderstanding on the part of the NDP as to how government works or it reflects the New Democrats' idea of federalism.

The member left it as an open question. I would invite him to answer it.

[John McCallum, Liberal, Markham—Unionville, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I would say it is all of the above, particularly one and two; I am not so sure about three. It is certainly a political stunt because the New Democrats realize the Senate is unpopular these days so they want that message out. As I indicated in my speech, it certainly reflects a total misunderstanding of how the government works.

[Jean Rousseau, NDP, Compton—Stanstead, QC]

Mr. Speaker, it is unacceptable for an experienced member to make such comments. They are patronizing, almost colonial comments. It is unacceptable to say that it is impossible to carry out modern parliamentary reforms. The people are seeing all the scandals that have unfolded in the past two weeks, or in the past few years in the case of the Liberals. It is possible to carry out reforms.

As for effectiveness, the Senate rates a zero. If its activities were included in Canada's GDP, we would be one of the worst countries in the world. The Senate is not effective in the least, it has a high absenteeism rate and we do not get our money's worth. The member just said that everything would shut down if we stopped funding the Senate. If they truly want to serve their country, senators should volunteer their time. In any event, they were elected by the Liberals and the Conservatives.

[John McCallum, Liberal, Markham—Unionville, ON]

Mr. Speaker, what is completely unacceptable is the NDP's ridiculous motion. The NDP should know that there are certain rules. We have a Constitution and we must abide by it. We have no choice. We will have to wait for the Supreme Court decision to find out the details. However, most experts believe that the consent of all the provinces and the federal government is needed to abolish the Senate. It cannot be done with just an NDP motion. It would take the approval of at least the majority of the provinces, if not all of them.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Mr. Speaker, this is not a serious proposal from the opposition. This is great for grandstanding in the House of Commons in the Ottawa bubble, but this is not a serious motion.

The NDP wants to abolish the Senate, but it knows that it does not have the support to do that in this country. Whether we believe it requires the 7/50 amending formula or it requires the unanimity of 11 legislatures in this country, the NDP realizes it does not have the support for that.

Not to mention that a majority of its Quebec caucus has not responded as to whether or not the province of Quebec would demand its Meech Lake five demands: the recognition of Quebec's nationhood, appointments to the Supreme Court, vetoes for all provinces, opt-out provisions and control of immigration by provincial governments. They have not responded as to whether the province of Quebec would demand that ahead of any abolition of the Senate.

Instead, what the NDP is trying to do is something through the back door that it cannot accomplish through the front door. It reminds me of the tactics, frankly, of what the Republicans are doing in the United States. The affordable care act, otherwise known as Obamacare, passed in the legislature. Instead of ensuring the successful implementation of the act, the GOP has decided to starve it of its funds so as to not allow it to operate.

Clearly, this motion is nothing more than political grandstanding. It is not a serious proposal from a government that is supposed to be in-waiting.

[John McCallum, Liberal, Markham—Unionville, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I agree with what my colleague said. However, I also think that the government's current plan is not serious. It is also trying to do things through the back door by avoiding the Constitution.

If we have an elected Senate, which is what the government wants, but we have no change in the distribution of seats, it would be grossly unfair to British Columbia and Alberta, which only have 6 seats each versus New Brunswick, which has 10, P.E.I., which has 4, and so on. If we are going to have an elected Senate which is more powerful, we have to first deal with the distribution of the seats. The current government appears not to be willing to do that.

However, again, we will have to see what the Supreme Court says.

[Pierre Dionne Labelle, NDP, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I will be sharing my time with the hon. member for Halifax.

Josée gets up very early in the morning and takes her child to daycare. She has been working in a grocery store for 15 years. She has no pension and is not unionized.

Roger, my neighbour in Saint-Jérôme, rises at 5:30 in the morning and gets in his car. He used to work at Air Canada, but was later transferred to Aveos. Aveos closed. Now he is forced to commute from Saint-Jérôme to work in the east end. He is on the road for an hour and a half every morning.

Denise is 75 years old. She has health problems. She goes to the hospital and waits 15 hours in the emergency room. She has trouble getting the health care she needs. She has no support at home.

While this goes on, what is Parliament doing? What is being done by the people sitting in front of me and next to me—the people who were elected to run this country? We are busy discussing people who were not elected and use a lot of taxpayers' money illegally. When Josée, Roger and Denise come home in the evening, they turn on the radio and hear about Duffy, Wallin, Brazeau and Harb, and they are fed up with politics.

There is a moral and social crisis in Canada regarding the political elite. It starts with the municipalities. People are disgusted by what is happening at the municipal level. They are disgusted by what is happening at the provincial level. At the federal level, it is more than people can stomach. It is incredible that there can be such an abuse of funds, especially since these people are not legitimately appointed. Who are these people in the Senate?

Before the scandals broke, I was not really interested in who sits in the Senate. However, I recently looked up the senators and why they are there. It is despicable.

We cannot accept that a political instrument such as the Senate is used to reward fundraisers. It is unbelievable. The list is long. Liberal and Conservative fundraisers have equal representation. They are obviously friends. A buddy is a buddy. I look at the list of people who have been appointed to the Senate by the Conservative Party and I just cannot believe it.

I will start with the Liberals' friends. David Smith is a chair of the national fundraising campaign. James Cowan was vice-chair of the Nova Scotia fundraising campaign. I have a couple of examples for the Conservatives. Irving Gerstein was a party fundraiser. Judith Seidman was co-chair of the leadership campaign. Other buddies include Donald Neil Plett, president of the Conservative Party, and David Braley, a major donor. The list goes on. It is a cushy job for party cronies. We cannot accept that. It is an incredible situation.

Can someone in this House tell me why Jacques Demers is a senator? I like the man. I liked him as a hockey coach. However, he is now behind the bench of a team that is asleep at the switch. What is Josée Verner doing there? People did not vote for her. She is a failed candidate. Right after the election they sent her to the Senate. That is just incredible. It is outrageous. People are fed up. They are disgusted with politics. They do not want to vote any more, and that has been brought about by the people who are governing this country in a totalitarian and, I dare say, unethical manner. It has come to this.

My ancestors fought in Lower Canada for the 92 resolutions, for responsible government, for elected individuals who would be accountable to a parliament for making laws and administering them and who would be accountable to the electorate. My ancestors were hanged for that.

Here we have a situation where people can overturn the decisions of the public's elected representatives without being accountable to anyone. That is unacceptable.

The Liberals are scaring people. They are saying that our motion will paralyze Parliament and that we will not be able to pass any more laws. They have spent the past 30 years scaring Quebec and the rest of Canada. It is unacceptable that they are standing and trying to ridicule us when, basically, they are the ridiculous ones in the eyes of history.

They forced the Constitution down our throats even though Quebec did not sign it. Now, they are saying that this is unconstitutional and so on. Where was their respect for the democratic process when the Constitution was signed in 1982? They had no respect. I am getting carried away, but I believe that things need to change.

Moving on to the subject of volunteering, I have worked with exceptional men and women in the community over the past 15 years. Every day, hundreds of people are working for causes they believe in, whether it is supporting abused women, women's groups or food banks. Every day, hundreds of people give of their time to food banks to help people living in poverty and isolation.

I am told that the politics could never attract volunteers to improve the country's situation. I do not believe it. I have seen people work hard, raise money, go into hospitals and go into schools to help children. Why would such volunteerism not be appropriate in politics?

I have seen people get involved in protecting wetlands and fighting against oil development projects that threatened the environment. I have seen volunteers get involved in sports organizations across the country. It is not ridiculous to propose that senators not be paid. It is an idea that I really like.

When we talk about the amending formula, we must remember that Mr. Trudeau and Mr. Chrétien patriated the Constitution without Quebec's consent, obviously, and imposed an unworkable amending formula on us. They locked the Constitution up tight, and now that we are trying to make reforms, we are being told that changes require the support of 50% of the population and seven of the provinces, yet Quebec did not support this amending formula. In fact, people do not agree with the Constitution.

Was the Constitution ratified at the national level? Was a vote held on it? People are discouraged and fed up with the situation. In that regard, today's debate is moving things forward. I am talking primarily to the people who are watching at home. I am not trying to convince the people in power, because they are cynics. They use their power for their own purposes.

If Canadians want responsible MPs who will improve the political situation in Canada, they should vote for the NDP.

[The Acting Speaker, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Before we go to questions and comments, the hon. member for Wellington—Halton Hills is rising on a point of order.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I have been listening to the debate taking place on this motion and it concerns me a great deal that we are bringing disrespect on Parliament and the Senate. I would ask, through you Mr. Speaker, that members of this House show respect for this institution as it is structured in the Constitution of this country, the basic law of the land.

For reference, pages 614 and 615 of the House of Commons Procedure and Practice , second edition, say: “Disrespectful reflections on Parliament as a whole, or on the House and the Senate individually are not permitted. Members of the House and the Senate are also protected by this rule”.

It goes on to say, on page 615, that: “it is out of order to question a Senator’s integrity, honesty or character”.

I think it is clear what the rules of this chamber are, and I ask, through you Mr. Speaker, that all members respect the rules of this place, the rule of law, and that we all follow that as this debate unfolds over the rest of this evening.

[The Acting Speaker, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

I thank the hon. member for Wellington—Halton Hills for his intervention in this matter. Members will be reminded that when they are compelled to attribute characterizations or descriptions of other hon. members, be they members here in the House or otherwise, that is an area that should be used with extreme care and caution, as the member for Wellington—Halton Hills has pointed out. It is a long-standing practice of the House that while members can bring strong arguments in terms of the specific question they have to present, they should avoid these kinds of characterizations because they can quickly move into the area of unparliamentary debate. Of course, as members know, that would be ruled out of order. I thank hon. members for their attention and thank the member for Wellington—Halton Hills for his comments on the matter.

Questions and comments, the hon. member for Ottawa—Orléans.

[Royal Galipeau, Conservative, Ottawa—Orléans, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the hon. member for Rivière-du-Nord. I listened carefully to his speech. However, I am not sure whether he himself paid attention to what he was saying. He was getting really agitated, practically tearing his hair out. At some point he could not even understand why I was applauding him.

I was applauding to show my support for the May 2, 2011 election result in the Louis-Saint-Laurent riding. I respect this result. I would like him to respect all the other results, including those that legitimately allowed the government currently in power to sit to the right of the Speaker.

In his speech he ranted about all kinds of issues under provincial jurisdiction, over which we have no authority whatsoever. The issue of the day is his proposal to abolish the Senate. I would like him to tell us what legal mechanism he intends to use to do that.

[Pierre Dionne Labelle, NDP, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I do feel strongly about the Senate and the use of public funds by unelected individuals who were appointed so they could take advantage of these privileges. We are not proposing to abolish the Senate.

Here is what the motion says: “That all funding should cease to be provided to the Senate...”.

We are not talking about abolishing the Senate. That is not what the motion is about. We want to ensure that senators do not receive different treatment than most Canadians.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the member on constitutionality in terms of what the New Democratic Party has before us today. If we look at the substance of the motion and the debate, it would appear that the New Democrats do not understand the way in which our process works in Canada and that there are some constitutionally challenged ideas that are being talked about by the NDP. Do New Democrats have any form of legal opinions that would support their position that we can take every nickel or dime away from the Senate and that it would allow us to be in compliance with our Constitution?

Does the member have a list of provinces that support what the New Democrats are proposing, given that there is a 7/50 rule across Canada in terms of constitutional change?

[Pierre Dionne Labelle, NDP, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I know that the Conservative government has increased the Senate's budget and decreased the budget of the House of Commons. Since the Senate's budget has been increased, it can logically also be decreased. I do not see how that is connected to the Constitution in any way.

The Liberal Party's constitutional experts are the same ones who patriated the Constitution and shoved it down Quebeckers' throats. They did so without Quebec's approval.

I do not think this is a constitutional matter. This is about logic, pure and simple.

People might be prepared to give their time to reflect on our country's future without being paid and without an unlimited budget.

[Megan Leslie, NDP, Halifax, NS]

Mr. Speaker, I am proud to speak to this. I have been listening to the debate in the House and I heard the member for Markham—Unionville say in his speech that the motion was poorly worded. I want to challenge that because I think it is not a poorly worded motion; the motion is quite beautiful. It is beautifully worded and it is elegant in its simplicity. It says:

That all funding should cease to be provided to the Senate beginning on July 1, 2013.

I do think it is beautiful in its simplicity. We need to do something about the Senate. Look at the situation we are in right now when it comes to the Senate.

What are the facts? What do we know? We are constantly being told that the Senate offers us this house of sober second thought. I think that is debatable. I will return to the sober second thought part.

The member for Wellington—Halton Hills pointed out that we need to speak respectfully about Parliament. That includes the Senate, the other place. I would argue that it is the senators who are bringing disrespect to Parliament, not us who are here in this chamber. They are the ones who are bringing disrespect to Parliament.

This so-called house of sober second thought, these sober second thinkers, are also filing false expense claims. We know that to be true. They are also misleading the public and Parliament about where they live. We know that they are abusing public funds. We know that they find the forms that ask them where they live to be confusing and difficult to understand. We also know that they are driving around with expired licence plates.

I think that Canadians have paid enough money for this undemocratic institution and it is time that we stop spending millions of taxpayer dollars on this institution. The Senate is costing taxpayers $92.5 million a year. Frankly, that is $92.5 million too much.

The member for Markham—Unionville said that this motion is idiotic. Tell that to the British House of Lords because they do not get paid as a right. They do not get paid for being lords. They do not have a salary in the House of Lords. Those folks get paid sort of a per diem for showing up. I would ask this question. Is that an idiotic way of doing things?

The Liberals and Conservatives insist that we cannot do anything about the Senate. They say it is too big a constitutional issue, and once we open up the Pandora's box of constitutional issues no one will ever agree. We will go into this dark abyss of constitutional pandemonium, never to escape. Give me a break.

The NDP does not believe this. That is why we are talking to Canadians first. That is the first step, talking to Canadians. I have been going door-to-door quite a bit at home, and at every single door people are asking if I can tell them what is going on with the Senate. This is what folks are talking about. We want to tap into that and see what people are saying. The NDP has launched our petition to roll up the red carpet, which people can sign, saying that this institution is outdated and it is time to get rid of it.

After talking to Canadians, we need to start talking with the provinces. It is not that difficult. We can start with these baby steps. Let us talk to the provinces. Unfortunately, we have a Prime Minister who refuses to meet with the provinces. He has not been to the Council of the Federation. I cannot remember when he was there last, or if he was even there.

The Liberals and Conservatives are insisting that they cannot do anything, that it is sad and unfortunate but their hands are bound. This is it. It is lovely. It is simple. It is elegant. Here is a solution. Let us pass this motion. There is nothing stopping us from doing this.

I have heard some comments about the constitutionality of this motion. It is not unconstitutional to adopt a motion saying that the Senate should be defunded. The constitutionality of any subsequent legislation is a separate issue. This in itself is no problem. The sole purpose of this motion is the signal that it sends that the Senate is an illegitimate drain on the public purse.

Let us do it. Let us move to the House of Lords model. Those guys are doing just fine. I do not think what they are doing is idiotic. There is not a lot of response to that. The cat has their tongues, the Liberals and Conservatives, because I do not think they treat the Senate as a house of sober second thought. They treat it as a fundraising arm for their parties. They want to keep appointing senators so they can go out and raise money for their parties on the taxpayer's dime.

Let us look at who is in the Senate. There are David Smith and James Cowan, and they are the co-chairs of the Liberal campaign. They are campaign directors. I get along with James Cowan. I have worked with him. He is a nice guy. We are both from Nova Scotia and we have done some work together. We get along because we have a lot in common and we both like politics. I also get along with the Halifax Federal Liberal Riding Association president, Layton Dorey. He and I have a lot in common. We like to talk politics and we can shoot the breeze. I get along with these folks, but there is a big difference between Layton Dorey and James Cowan, because Layton Dorey is not being paid by taxpayers to do the work that he is doing for the Liberal Party.

Let us look at the Conservatives. The chief fundraiser and chair of the Conservative Fund Canada is a senator. They should go for it, fill their boots, do all the fundraising they want to do, but they should not be able to do it on the taxpayer's dime. We should not be paying for a fundraising arm of these political parties. Let us remember that they are being paid, in total, $92.5 million. Senators are campaigning for the Conservatives and Liberals, while being paid by taxpayers and I do not think that is what Canadians are paying them for. If they are doing useful work for those parties, then those parties should be paying them out of their own coffers as fundraisers.

The raison d'être of the Senate, when it was formed at Confederation, was one of sober second thought, with representatives from the provinces bringing regional interests to Parliament in doing that kind of political analysis on policy debates. Senators were supposed to be an integral part of our democracy, but we have seen anything but in the past 146 years. Fundraisers, failed candidates and senior party staffers have all been appointed time and time again to the upper chamber and the reality is that senators appointed by partisan prime ministers have a poor record of defending our regional interests.

When I first arrived here, I spoke with our then democratic reform critic from Hamilton Centre and told him that I was from Nova Scotia, that there were Nova Scotian senators and I was conflicted about our position on abolishing the Senate. He asked when was the last time a senator ever stood up for Nova Scotia. I realized that they did not, they just did what their parties told them to do.

Here is what they are told to do. The Climate Change Accountability Act passed in the House by a majority of democratically-elected members of Parliament. We acted on the will of the people and the will of the people was to pass climate change accountability legislation. When it got to the other place, it was voted down. This is what Marjory LeBreton, the Conservative Senate house leader, stated:

We were as surprised as anyone else that the Liberals forced a vote on second reading of this bill. But once the Liberals presented us with an opportunity to defeat the bill, we of course were going to take it and defeat the bill because the government does not support this bill. The fact of the matter is this was not part of a strategy, this was something that landed in our laps. It was an opportunity to defeat the bill and we took the opportunity.

That evening I was upstairs in this very place with Jack Layton, our then NDP leader. I had never seen him so angry. I had never heard him yell. He was beside himself with rage about how a bill in the House of Commons could be passed by democratically-elected MPs and when it got to the Senate, the senators said it was gone. It was unbelievable. It is $92.5 million too much.

[Cathy McLeod, Conservative, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of National Revenue]

Mr. Speaker, I have spent a number of years in the House and, to be quite frank, I have never seen a motion from the opposition that is so absolutely ludicrous. It shows that the New Democrats have no respect for our Constitution or they do not understand.

We know we have to make changes to the Senate. We are going through a process and have referred it to the Supreme Court. We heard some great words from some of the Liberals in terms of what would actually happen if this motion passed. She needs to explain to Canadians how she could be so irresponsible as to speak to this motion.

[Megan Leslie, NDP, Halifax, NS]

Mr. Speaker, I go back to the beginning of my speech, where I pointed out that this was the situation in the House of Lords. It is not unheard of. It is not silly. It is not some crazy concept. This is the way it is in England. They get their per diem if they show up and do the work, but it is not a salary as a right.

If we de-fund the Senate, this is the first step. What the heck? There would be a lot of Canadians out there who would be pretty interested in volunteering in Parliament. They actually care about what is going on in Parliament. They want to see good legislation pass. If we had volunteers, they would not go across the country fundraising for the folks in here.

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I was interested when the member said she was here with Jack Layton and she went on to say something. I presume that she would have said something like he kicked something.

I remember the late Mr. Layton when he was on the city council in Toronto. We talk about people at the trough, we talk about people who are getting $90,000 and all that kind of stuff. If I remember correctly, was it not Jack Layton who was living in co-op housing when he and his spouse were city councillors? Is that not being at the trough?

[Megan Leslie, NDP, Halifax, NS]

Mr. Speaker, if you find this unparliamentary, that is fine, but that is a gross question.

The member knows full well that Jack Layton was living in co-operative housing. It is co-operative housing, not low-income housing. He was paying according to his income. That is a Liberal smear campaign against Jack Layton. It is one of the grossest things I have heard in the House.

[Malcolm Allen, NDP, Welland, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I want to thank my colleague from Halifax for speaking about our late leader, Jack Layton. Quite frankly, with regards to the member for Scarborough—Agincourt, it was absolutely contemptible that he would actually stand and say what he did.

Besides all of that, it is clear to me, although it is not as clear to my colleague down there. Then again, they are Liberals and I would not expect it to be clear. That is why they are like flags on a flag pole, whichever way the wind blows today, they will blow that way too.

The bottom line is that there are many folks who would be more than pleased to come here and serve their country. In fact, I could name five people in Welland for the member for Halifax. I have heard Senators say that is why they are there. They are there to serve our country. Let them come and serve, and we will give them per diem. However, they do not need to get paid. If the parliamentary secretary says that the only reason they come is because they get a salary, perhaps that is not who we want to have in there in the first place.

What does my hon. colleague think about that?

[Megan Leslie, NDP, Halifax, NS]

Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague from Welland for that perspective and for talking about his constituents, who would be proud to serve.

We are forced to do this because of the inaction of the other two parties over all this time. They keep insisting we cannot do anything. The Conservatives are saying that we need to reform the Senate. They need to show it to us. What are they doing? We have had no action on this. The Prime Minister campaigned on this, yet there is no action from the Conservatives.

If the Conservatives are actually serious about reform, show it to us. However, they have not, so here we are. We are offering a simple scalpel-like opportunity to drain the senators of funding so we can all move on, end of story.