Debates of Jan. 30th, 2014

Opposition Motion—Canadian Forces

[Pierre Dionne Labelle, NDP, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Mr. Speaker, there is an old French song called Tout va très bien Madame la Marquise. The marquise, a noblewoman, is travelling and calls her castle, only to be told by her butler that her horse is dead. When she asks why, he responds that the barn caught fire. When she asks him why the barn caught fire, he says that the castle had caught fire, but not to worry, because everything was just fine.

Veterans affairs is one file where everything is definitely not fine. Every year since I was elected, I have participated in Remembrance Day activities and I regularly meet UN-NATO veterans from the Laurentides and members of the Royal Canada Legion in Saint-Jérôme. I want to say a quick hello to them, since I know that they are listening.

On several occasions, I have met with these proud men and women who have recently returned from the front lines, where they were sent to fight for our freedoms and the values we believe in, and to protect democracy. I talked to them about the problems they have getting assistance from Veterans Affairs.

It is always overwhelming to see a massive, tattooed, 6-foot-3-inch man, bedecked with medals, who has come back from Somalia, Bosnia-Herzegovina or Afghanistan and who breaks down crying right in front of you. Why? Because he is suffering. I have witnessed a lot of suffering and worry among veterans, but I have also seen a lot of solidarity and people helping each other.

At a time when thousands of soldiers are or will be returning from their mission in Afghanistan, an unprecedented wave of suicides is sweeping the Canadian Forces. Clearly, they are now facing a significant mental health crisis. In the past two months, there have been eight suspected suicides in the Canadian Forces. I say “suspected” because these cases are still under investigation.

In the past five years, there have been 50 boards of inquiry on suspected cases of suicide, and some reports have not yet been released. Out of respect for the eight individuals who died, I will not mention their names. Suffice it to say that two of them were master corporals, one was a master bombardier, one was a warrant officer, one was a soldier and three were corporals.

Clearly, no one in the military is immune. What is happening here? The Surgeon General for the Canadian Forces does not believe that there is any connection between the suspected suicides and overseas missions. He even added that, “Suicide among Canadian Forces members is caused by the same factors as suicide among members of the general public”. At least he had the decency to admit that overseas missions cause Canadian Forces members extreme stress.

Like all the members here today, I follow the news closely, and I have not noticed eight suicides in two months in any other occupational group in Canada where workers operate in conditions of extreme stress, such as firefighters, police officers, paramedics and nurses.

Lieutenant-General Roméo Dallaire gave an unequivocal response to the comments made by the Surgeon General: “I find it ridiculous that he is saying that the Canadian Forces do not have more suicides than the civilian world.” He went on to say:

Do not tell me that when soldiers experience combat and are in a different environment over the holidays and are feeling isolated, that they are not more inclined to make a drastic decision.

Suicide is always a drastic decision, an immediate solution to a temporary problem. I am asking all members opposite to honestly recognize that we are experiencing a crisis and to accept the fact that the existing situation is not normal, that there is a deep malaise, and that we need to take urgent measures to counteract this phenomenon and prevent any further loss of human life.

When they come back from Afghanistan, many of our soldiers will have to deal with symptoms of PTSD, and there is a chance that the number of suicides will increase. In spite of the recommendations made by the National Defence and Canadian Forces Ombudsman, the Department of National Defence has yet to create a national data base that would indicate exactly how many members of the military have PTSD-related issues. Between 6,000 and 10,000 members will be released from duty for medical reasons between 2011 and 2016.

Based on prevalence rates, it is estimated that 5,900 veterans will have mental health issues, 2,700 of them being serious cases of PTSD. The army's mental health needs are both clear and urgent. In recent months, this issue has been brought before two separate House of Commons committees. Veterans and veterans' advocates have spoken out against the lack of assistance provided to physically injured soldiers and those suffering from PTSD to transition back into civilian life.

Jason MacDonald, the Conservative government's spokesperson, reiterated that the army and the Department of Veterans Affairs are taking the suicides and the stress of current and former soldiers seriously. He said that the government is making every effort to support them. Is that really the case? How can the government say that it is taking this situation seriously when it is getting ready to close eight regional Veterans Affairs Canada offices between now and January 31? Those offices process 17,223 files. How can the government claim to be taking the situation and the Department of Veterans Affairs' allegations seriously when we know that it has slashed the Veterans Affairs Canada budget by $129 million since 2011 and that additional cuts of $132 million are planned for between now and 2016? A total of 784 positions are being cut, yet the government claims to be taking the situation seriously.

The government is closing offices that provide assistance to veterans and retired RCMP officers. They provide personalized, essential services for people with mental health issues. They provide personal crisis intervention and support so that older veterans can live independently. Veterans will have to go to other cities. They will have to travel eight, nine or ten hours to get front-line services, or they can get help through Service Canada offices, which will offer a hodge-podge of services. The employees who serve these veterans will not necessarily have a lot of real experience with the programs available to them.

Veterans will no longer have access to the specialized offices that were created for them in response to their needs. Those offices had private interview rooms for scheduled appointments with client service officers and case managers. There were other rooms where veterans could see nursing and other staff. For people considering putting an end to their lives, quick access to nearby resources can make a big difference as to whether they go through with it or not. Those resources will no longer be available in a timely fashion; they will no longer be available immediately.

There is a staffing shortage. Soldiers will come back to the country in the midst of a staffing shortage. In 2003, the previous government promised to give National Defence 447 mental health workers. By December 2013, only 388 of those positions were occupied. According to the Ombudsman for the Department of National Defence and the Canadian Forces, Pierre Daigle, one of the main concerns is the chronic shortage of mental health professionals, currently 15% to 22% below what is required by the Canadian Forces. This continues to be the biggest obstacle to the delivery of universal care to veterans.

We want the government to reverse its absurd decision to close regional Veterans Affairs Canada offices that provide front-line services to soldiers, immediately hire the mental health professionals that were promised to meet soldiers' and veterans' mental health needs, and prioritize and quickly conclude the over 50 outstanding boards of inquiry on military suicides so that grieving families can get answers to their questions.

[Pierre Nantel, NDP, Longueuil—Pierre-Boucher, QC]

Mr. Speaker, first of all, I wish to congratulate my hon. colleague on his well-researched and very realistic speech regarding the situation facing former military personnel, veterans.

I visit the people of Royal Canadian Legion Branch 266 in Boucherville. How many times have they talked about the need for easily identifiable support when they think of their young colleagues returning from combat? The government makes a decision and then rolls it out, simply because they say that is the way it is going to go. We see the abuses. For instance, yesterday the media was reporting an appalling situation. If I put myself in the shoes of a young man returning from combat who sees how the government is treating those who have done so much for our country, I cannot help but think it is impossible to go on like this. On top of that, the Conservatives had the nerve to defer today's vote.

I would like to ask my colleague if he thinks the Conservatives are playing games with an extremely important subject.

[Pierre Dionne Labelle, NDP, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Mr. Speaker, what stands out the most about the way the Conservatives are dealing with this issue, and many others, is the lack of humanity.

There is a lack of humanity when it comes to the unemployed, veterans and immigrants, to name a few. When people are struggling, we need to be there for them, especially since these are employees of the government who were sent to fight for us.

We must ensure that when they come home, military personnel have access to all the services they need to lead an active and healthy life and reintegrate into civilian society.

The Conservative government did not have to cut the Veterans Affairs Canada budget by 10%, but that is what it decided to do. That is too bad. It says it is making budget cuts without any impact on services to Canadians, but here we have a good example of the opposite.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

Mr. Speaker, I want to pick up on the fact that out of all of the offices that are closing, there is one in the city of Brandon. As is the case with the other offices, this closing will have a profound impact.

I want to emphasize that there is a difference between calling a phone number and being able to walk into an office. We believe veterans deserve the respect of allowing these offices to remain open.

What transpired in the meeting with the vets the other day was exceptionally disrespectful. The following day we had a very heated question period dealing with the Minister of Veterans Affairs being called to task.

My own leader suggested that it is time for the minister to be relieved of his responsibilities as the minister responsible for veterans. My leader wanted the minister to resign. Not only was the leader of the Liberal Party calling for this, but the Leader of the Opposition was as well.

I wonder if the member might want to comment on the whole issue of respect and the need to replace the current minister.

[Pierre Dionne Labelle, NDP, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I completely agree with my colleague's statements.

The minister should resign in the wake of his unacceptable behaviour yesterday. The government cannot admit that though because he represents the government on this file and acts on its behalf. It is despicable that when veterans come to meet with the minister, he refuses to speak with them and literally pushes them. He should resign.

[Murray Rankin, NDP, Victoria, BC]

Mr. Speaker, Raymond is a Victoria veteran. He is 93 years old and the last living member of a Lancaster bomber crew.

The closure of the Veterans Affairs offices has made it harder for Raymond to find out about the Bomber Command Bar. When Raymond's Bomber Command Bar was approved after many delays, there was absolutely no ceremony or even an officer to receive it from. It just showed up in the mail one day. His family was very upset. He felt disrespected, ignored, and bitter about the government.

Apparently the government believes that a 1-800 number and a computer are going to do the job. I ask my hon. colleague if he thinks that is the way to treat our veterans.

[Pierre Dionne Labelle, NDP, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Mr. Speaker, we are talking about post-traumatic stress disorder and human interaction with people who served their country and who are having a hard time. Machines cannot replace direct contact with professionals. Clearly, that will not work.

If a person who is considering committing suicide phones this service and gets voice mail, that individual will not get help in making the best decision about protecting his or her life and getting the care needed.

[The Acting Speaker, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

It is my duty, pursuant to Standing Order 38, to inform the House that the questions to be raised tonight at the time of adjournment are as follows: the hon. member for Churchill, Aboriginal Affairs; the hon. member for Thunder Bay—Superior North, The Environment; the hon. member for Saanich—Gulf Islands, Natural Resources.

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I am going to read from an article that appeared in The Hill Times, written by Michel Drapeau, a veterans lawyer. He stated:

The recent rise of suicides of Afghan veterans, which should have been predictable, has focused national attention to the despair and neglect faced by many of them. It has also drawn attention to the likelihood that the suicide rate amongst CF members is many times higher than the Canadian statistical norm. This is supported in a Statistics Canada report, which found that among CF members, 26.6 per cent of the male deaths and 14 per cent of female deaths were the result of suicide. This same report states that individuals with some military career experience are 45 per cent more likely to die as a result of suicide than those in the general population.

In the last few weeks leading up to this past Christmas, there were eight suicides. There was another death that was confirmed as a suicide yesterday, making it nine suicides. That is a number that is very high.

There are people suffering with post-traumatic stress disorder. There are people suffering with all kinds of ailments. There are people suffering with broken bones, bad backs, and everything else.

When these people joined the military and were asked to do things, they did not hesitate. The military is not a nine-to-five career. The military is not a career where if something is unsafe one says, “No, I'm not going to do it.” The military is quite the opposite. It is 9:01 a.m. to 8:59 a.m. the next morning. If one is asked to do something, one has to do it.

Let us go back in history and our involvement to when Canada became known as a country in Vimy Ridge in 1917, when we charged the bastions and we won. That was World War I. Thousands upon thousands of young men joined up. Some of them were as young as 15. They had to lie about their age in order to join the military.

In 1917, just prior to the Battle of Vimy Ridge, Conservative Prime Minister Robert Borden stated that:

You can go into this action feeling assured of this, and as the head of the government I give you this assurance: That you need not fear that the government and the country will fail to show just appreciation of your service to the country and Empire in what you are about to do and what you have already done. The government and the country will consider it their first duty to see that a proper appreciation of your effort and of your courage is brought to the notice of people at home…that no man, whether he goes back or whether he remains in Flanders, will have just cause to reproach the government for having broken faith with the men who won and the men who died.

Borden's speech was the promise and the moral recognition that Canada and the Government of Canada would never forget the sacrifice its veterans and their families make. This promise formed the basis of Canada's legislation to support our veterans. That was right after World War II.

The Pension Act that was enacted did not come about very easily. Yes, there were riots in the street. Yes, there was trouble. Yes, there was fighting, and yes, the veterans felt that they were left behind.

However, after World War II, a Pension Act was enacted that provided for the payment of pensions to veterans, to veterans who were taken prisoner by the enemy, to the surviving dependants of all such veterans, and to veterans who were killed or disabled in the course of their military service.

Section 2 of the act states:

The provisions of this Act shall be liberally construed and interpreted to the end that the recognized obligation of the people and Government of Canada to provide compensation to those members of the forces who have been disabled or have died as a result of military service, and to their dependants, may be fulfilled.

That was World War I, the war to end all wars. Unfortunately, that was not the case. A few years later, in 1940, there was another war. However, before we get to 1940, Canadians were again asked to join up, and men and women joined up. We sacrificed not only in battle but we sacrificed at home.

In 1930, there was the War Veterans Allowance Act, which was enacted to provide for special income support benefits to veterans in need. Section 1.01 states:

The provisions of this Act shall be liberally construed and interpreted to the end that the recognized obligation of the people and Government of Canada to those who have served their country so well and to their dependants may be fulfilled.

Over the years, the Pension Act and the War Veterans Allowance Act have been amended to include members who have served in World War II, the Korean War, and members of the Merchant Marine. We had the Canadian Forces Members and Veterans Re-establishment and Compensation Act, and then we come to 2005, when we have the new veterans charter.

However, before we get to 2005 and the changes that we have seen through the new veterans charter, we have to look at the history of what our military has done.

In the Korean War, we fought under a UN flag. The UN flag was for us to fight North Korea, where difficulties still exist to this very day. We have seen action in Cyprus, the Middle East, the Golan Heights, and Vietnam. These were peacekeeping actions. We have seen NATO actions and the Cold War. We have seen all kinds of action, and the men and women who served in those theatres, although not in actual war, were there as peacekeepers. This is what put Canada on the map. When Canadians who travel abroad are asked where they are from and say “Canada”, the first thing that comes to people's minds is that we are a nation of peacekeeping, a nation that fights for freedom, and a nation that supports other nations at times of need.

One of the supports that we also provide at a time of disaster, such as after the tsunami in Sri Lanka, after the earthquakes in Muzaffarabad, Kashmir, Haiti, Turkey, and most recently in the Philippines, is what is called DART. Successive Canadian governments are very eager to assist countries and offer DART, and the DART team goes in. The men and women of DART are there to provide support and help the people of a country get back on their feet. Usually deployment of the team is two to three months at most, and they provide special services and assistance.

I had the pleasure and opportunity to see DART at work in Sri Lanka, as well as in Pakistan. In Sri Lanka, it was right after the tsunami. I visited DART and I saw doctors and nurses, men and women, working on young people and older men and women who were hurt from the tsunami. In Pakistan, I met a doctor who was originally from Pakistan and spoke the Urdu language. He was a Canadian doctor with the military. He would wear his backpack, which was full of medical supplies and other medical equipment, and go up into the mountains to provide service to the people who could not come down the mountains to go to the hospital.

Now we come to the action in Afghanistan. In 2001-2002, Canada got involved in Afghanistan. A lot of men and women have come back from that action. It is said that if they got hurt but could get into Kandahar within two minutes, their lives would probably be saved. However, we lost about 158 personnel, and many were wounded and maimed.

The difference in this situation is that the men and women who came back from Afghanistan after 2006 are having to deal with the NVC, the new veterans charter. Although the NVC has a lot of positives, it also has a lot of negatives. It depends on who one talks to. A lot of people are saying that the new veterans charter, which is supposed to be a living charter, is something that we need to look at, update, and explore. We are in the process of doing that. If people get hurt or maimed, the new veterans charter provides a lump sum. A lot of personnel and veterans who served are very upset, and in one case the government is being taken to court.

Let us take a look at the new veterans charter. I mentioned the words “liberally construed and interpreted to the end that the recognized obligation of the people and Government of Canada”.

However, section 43 on the benefit of the doubt states:

In making a decision under this Part or under section 84, the Minister and any person designated under section 67 shall

(a) draw from the circumstances of the case, and any evidence presented to the Minister or person; every reasonable inference in favour of an applicant under this Part or under section 84;

(b) accept any uncontradicted evidence presented to the Minister or the person, by the applicant, that the Minister or person considers to be credible in the circumstances; and

(c) resolve in favour of the applicant any doubt, in the weighing of the evidence, as to whether the applicant has established a case.

All members of the House voted in favour of the NVC. We did so because the main objective of the charter is to foster the social and vocational re-establishment of veterans in Canadian society at large. Unfortunately, I was one of those people who voted for it. We were convinced at that time, but we were wrong, and the NVC has become a barrier for many veterans who have come home either physically or mentally injured.

The death and disability lump sum payments are woefully inadequate when compared to the payments received by claimants under the WSIB program or by court-ordered settlements for personal injury claimants. One veteran wrote to me saying that he had lost 5% of his brain in an IED attack in Afghanistan and because there was no mention of disability or dismemberment on his chart, he will receive nothing for his injury.

I asked the minister's office for the number of cases initially denied by Veterans Affairs Canada; how many of them were appealed to the Veterans Review and Appeal Board; and how many had been successful. I am still waiting for an answer after more than five months.

Let me paraphrase several veterans: “I don't mind fighting the enemy but I should not have to fight the government that sent me to war to get the benefits I have earned”.

A veteran wrote more specifically, “Soldiers do their work, come home to fight another battle. Many believe that their government will look after them but obviously we were wrong. The battles that we have at home hurt more than those that we fought in other parts of the world. Government believes that soldiers are expendable. I can go to court for years. In the meantime, soldiers and their families die. Governments do not lose. It is amazing that we as citizens that are willing to die for the country knowing full well that some politicians will play their games and look like fools. We have given millions, maybe billions of our tax dollars to other countries and shake hands with a devil, but we will not fight us using more taxpayers to that end. Too bad. So sad. I love my country but...”.

Six brave veterans have taken the Conservative government to court to get the benefits that they feel they and their brothers and sisters in arms are entitled to. They are supported by the Equitas Society. Government lawyers went to court and they presented their case. When Mr. Justice Weatherill of the Supreme Court of British Columbia asked, “Is a better way of doing it the same thing as we want to save money?”, the government lawyer answered, “There is absolutely no question that government is entitled to trim allocations if they feel there is a need to save money”. The government lawyer went on to say, “And if there is a complaint about it...the remedy is at the polls”. He continued, “Yes, the benefits, for the purpose of this motion, are conceded to have been more generous under the Pension Act. Yes, government has changed the benefit package, and there appear...to be disadvantages, economic disadvantage that flow from that”. The government lawyer all but admitted that the changes in compensation offered under the NVC were to save money.

Closing the nine Veterans Affairs Canada centres and laying off 89 case workers is part of the Conservative government's workplace adjustment. It is balancing the books on the backs of our veterans. However, it is a case of false economy.

There are nine district offices set for closure. The files from Corner Brook will most likely go to St. John's. It is an eight-hour drive from Corner Brook to St. John's. The Sydney files will more likely go to Halifax, a five- to six-hour drive. The files in the Charlottetown office will likely go to Campbellton or Halifax, a five- to seven-hour drive for both. The files in Thunder Bay will likely go to Winnipeg, which involves a nine- to ten-hour drive. The Windsor files will likely go to London, a 2.5-hour drive. Saskatoon files will likely go to Regina, a three-hour drive.

For Brandon, the files would probably go to Shilo, which is a 30- to 45-minute drive, or as we learned when the vets from Brandon were here, they were thinking that the files would probably go to Winnipeg, an hour-and-a-half to two-hour drive. For Prince George, the files are dealt with by Vancouver, or Penticton. That is a 10-hour drive to Vancouver and 8-hour drive to Penticton.

Government members will say there is a Service Canada office there. In that case, I would challenge any of them to phone Dennis Manuge, who took the government to court and won. He tells me he has to drive to Penticton. He is in Kelowna. The files would likely go to Penticton, an hour away.

Let us examine what service managers do versus Service Canada workers. Veterans Affairs workers receive specialized, ongoing training because Veterans Affairs services and programs, like the needs of the veterans, are vastly complex and always evolving. Service Canada workers have received limited training about Veterans Affairs services and programs and can only answer general questions, in addition to supplying and receiving forms. They would direct the veterans to go a phone and either dial the number for VAC centre, which is 1-866-522-2122, or use the computer. I did that and I have a screen capture of it here that says: “Service Canada--People serving people”. It shows contact information and gives that number, which is the Veterans Affairs number.

I am going to look at three of the offices the government is trying to close. Charlottetown has 2,135 veterans that it looks after. Sydney has 1,485 and Thunder Bay has 1,048. A lot of vets who are suffering from PTSD go to VAC centres.

I have a letter from Gordon Hockridge, which reads:

My dance with the devil.

I've come close to suicide a few times but never this close. The thought of my wife and kids have always aced my attempting suicide. But not this time. I ignited a firestorm last Saturday and it ended up with me sitting in front of my computer with a 45.70 in my hands. The mental pain was building all day Sunday, everything was out of control, I couldn't shake the pain.

This veteran tried to call the number at the VAC centre. It was Saturday and it was closed. A recording said that if this was an emergency, dial 911 or go to the closest hospital.

There was a challenge put out and the vets themselves came about and put in an emergency line. They have a number. It is 855-373-8387. It is manned 24/7. A vet in distress calling that number will reach another vet answering that call. He has been there. He has done that. He knows what PTSD is all about. He knows what the trigger points are and he can help. Gord was one of those people who called that number and he was helped.

Having caseworkers driving 10 hours is totally unacceptable.

Mr. Speaker, I know you are signalling me that I only have two minutes left. I could go on for hours, but I will end up with this. One veteran told me that he had paid four visits to two Service Canada centres and was told by the Service Canada staff that they could not help him. Should a veteran live in a community that does not have a Service Canada location, dialing the 1-800 number is even more frustrating. One veteran told me that he got so frustrated with pressing 1 or 2 that he put the phone down. It is extremely frustrating for someone who suffers from post traumatic stress disorder. They usually end up just hanging on. That is not the way to help our veterans.

Mr. Speaker, I seek the permission of the House to dial the Veterans Affairs number now on my cellphone, just to see what they say. It is after 4:30. Do I have permission?

[The Acting Speaker, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Does the hon. member for Scarborough—Agincourt have unanimous consent of the House to use a device in the Chamber?

[Some hon. members]

No.

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Mr. Speaker, it is because they know that as soon as we dial that number and that number goes live and is heard across the country, what we will hear after 4:30 is “Thank you for dialing. If this is an emergency dial 911, or go to the closest hospital”.

There was a headline in the National Post that read “Veterans learning what Caledonia residents already know—[the minister] is a bully”.

The article closes:

In his first six months on the job, he zipped off to Paris to give a speech at an international meeting, was in Korea for the 60th anniversary of the armistice....

Those veterans who were blown off by Mr. Fantino paid in their taxes (and with their service)—

[The Acting Speaker, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Order, please. I would just remind the hon. member for Scarborough—Agincourt that the use of the names of other hon. members or ministers is prohibited. We use the name of either their title or their riding.

In the same vein, there have been, through the course of the debate, some characterizations of individual members and/or a minister, and these kinds of adjectives that are applied to specific members are usually in the category of unparliamentary language. I did note in this case that there did not seem to be any disorder, but I just mention that as a caution for members to steer clear from that kind of characterization.

We are at questions and comments. The hon. member for Toronto—Danforth.

[Craig Scott, NDP, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank my colleague for his speech on this motion by my colleague from Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, which I very much support.

This is something very close to my heart. My own grandfather served in World War I. For many years I have worn this ring. He lost his leg on a battlefield in northern France. He survived many surgeries after the war, until he finally committed suicide in 1938, at which time his surviving spouse, my grandmother, was told she was entitled to only half a pension because of the manner in which he had taken his life. So I know exactly what it means to talk about ensuring that their government, when they come home, is fully on the veterans' side.

With that, I would like to ask my hon. colleague what he knows or thinks about some reports that the inability of the Department of National Defence to hire staff to be mental health workers supposedly comes down to its deficit reduction policies, such that in order to hire a mental health worker, someone else would have to be fired within the Department of National Defence. Has the member heard that, and could he comment?

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Mr. Speaker, there have been reports that the 50 or so positions that are about to be filled are not being filled because of office politics football.

I know personally that a lot of the people who are suffering are reaching out to many of us and wanting to speak. This is why the vets took it upon themselves and have set up a 1-800 number. I will repeat the number for whoever is listening: 1-855-373-VETS, which is 8387. Vets call upon vets and get help. We need more clinicians to assist, and it is a real shame that the government is not moving in the direction of providing people with the assistance they need.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Mr. Speaker, on the heels of comments by the member across the way—“Giving somebody a lump sum…that’s like hanging a case of beer in front of a drunk…. They get the lump sum, they go and spend it, either trying to buy a house or buying a fast car or spending it on booze or addiction”, or, “A lot of the veterans were in the army. We taught them one skill, to kill or be killed, to survive in order to be able to kill tomorrow, if I can put it bluntly”—it comes as no surprise that today in the House he says that legions are no more than drinking offices.

I take quite an exception to that because a number of our legions do very good work, not only for soldiers who have served in the past but also through other forms of community involvement.

Our serving soldiers do have, through OSISS, access to the members' assistance line 24/7, which is 1-800-268-7708. It is manned with qualified medical personnel. The families as well as reservists and the members themselves can call the family info line at 1-800-866-4546.

So instead of grandstanding with some off-the-cuff line that the member has put together to get publicity for himself, why is he not giving information on the scores of programs available to our people who have served in Canada's armed forces on behalf of Canadians?

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Mr. Speaker, if I am not mistaken, of the nine service people who have committed suicide, one or two of them might have been from Petawawa, which is in her riding.

If one dials 411 and asks directory assistance for the 1-800 number for Veterans Affairs, one will get 866-522-2122. I challenge anyone in this House, at this very moment, to dial that number. The answer will be: “We're closed, and if this is an emergency, dial 911”.

This is what the Conservative government is doing. After 4:30 p.m., they shut the number down, thank you very much and goodbye.

[Wayne Easter, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

Mr. Speaker, my colleague for Cardigan asked the minister a question during question period. The minister answered what my colleague just said: Dial the 1-800 number. That is not adequate. What we are talking about here is the loss of services to veterans.

In today's Charlottetown paper, The Guardian, there is an article about two Veterans Affairs caseworkers handling files from Charlottetown, and they say that they are completely overwhelmed by the workload. They are not working in Charlottetown now.

Ms. Bradley, the employee, outlined how bad she felt, because she could not provide adequate services, since she has 1,100 files. I will quote what she said:

We've already taken on files from the Charlottetown office. The impact that I have seen already is that the wait times are increasing for veterans. They are waiting weeks for phone calls back. We just don't have the time to service them the way the Charlottetown office did.

I ask my colleague what kinds of measures have to be taken to overcome this difficulty the cutbacks by the Minister of Veterans Affairs are causing for the reality veterans calling in for help have to face.

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I looked at the list of offices and the amount of work they are doing, and the case officers and the veterans they are servicing. In Charlottetown alone, I see the number 2,138. If it is not the busiest office, it is one of the busiest offices. To close that office in Charlottetown and take it to Halifax is a real shame.

Although the minister was there a couple of weeks ago, and he hastily called a meeting with the veterans at the very last minute to reassure them, well, the figures speak for themselves.

Not only that, veterans from across the country wanting to see the minister, to look him in the eye to say that he should not be closing their services, came to this House. The minister asked for a meeting with them, and he did not show up. There were two members of Parliament, the parliamentary secretary, and his chief of staff, and they blew the veterans completely aside.

The veterans came downstairs to the Charles-Lynch theatre in order to hold a press conference. At the very last minute, the minister blew in and said, don't point your finger at me. Well, that is not the way to deal with veterans. This is not the way to deal with people we have asked to put their lives on the line.

The minister gets up and says that we are going to wash their windows, clear the snow, and cut their grass. Maybe the Prime Minister should fire that minister, let him become the minister, and the rest of us can go cut his grass, shovel his snow, and clean his windows. There is more to it than--

[The Acting Speaker, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Questions and comments, the hon. member for Mississauga East—Cooksville.

[Wladyslaw Lizon, Conservative, Mississauga East—Cooksville, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I listened to the member's speech very carefully. He made some historical references to Prime Minister Borden's speech, but he chose the facts very carefully.

My question during this debate earlier today was this: Has he had some of kind of transformation in recent years? He portrays himself as a defender of veterans, but he and other members who sit with him were part of the government that in 1995 introduced the deepest cuts to veterans in this country's history. The Liberals removed veterans' benefits from allied veterans, including those who fought under Canadian command.

What were veterans told? They were told that they were wearing the wrong uniform. They may have been under Canadian command, but they were not wearing a Canadian uniform. Canadian veterans were outraged.

They removed the veterans' benefits from so-called—

[The Acting Speaker, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Order, please. The time for questions and comments, of course, is a limited time, and we need some opportunity for the hon. member for Scarborough—Agincourt to respond.

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Mr. Speaker, when the Conservatives came back into government, I got a call from one of the members saying that they were restoring the allied veterans.

Mr. Konn, an allied veteran from my riding who fought for us, went to ask for funds, and the minister's office called back and said that sorry, he was not one of ours.

At least we did the honourable thing by saying that we were only going to give to the veterans who fought for Canada. We did not mislead the veterans. They knew what they were looking for. I even know the country the member is talking about, because I come from that country. When people lined up in Crete and had falsified documents, the government of the day had to do something to make sure that people did not line up and get funds they were not allowed to, because they provided falsified documents.

Go and get your facts straight—

[The Acting Speaker, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Order, please. Resuming debate, the hon. member for Abitibi—Témiscamingue.

[Christine Moore, NDP, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to speak to the motion moved by the hon. member for Châteauguay—Saint-Constant. I want to point out that if there is any time left over, I will share it with the hon. member for Windsor West.

Some members in the House know that I used to be a soldier. I enlisted on May 11, 2002, as a medical assistant in the reserves. Then I spent some time in the regular forces as an armour officer cadet.

Having been a soldier has changed me as a person. It has forever changed my personality. I was no longer the same person when I left the forces. I learned how to work on a team, even if I did not always like the people I was required to work with. I had to work with them nonetheless. I learned to take responsibility even though it was not always easy and even though I was tired at times. I learned that there is no one to blame but me. I learned that sometimes I have to accept that I am wrong and take responsibility for my mistakes instead of blaming everyone else for my problems.

I learned to manage my fear and stress. As soldiers, we do not learn how to overcome fear; we learn how to manage it. If we lose our fear, then we become reckless and that can be fatal. I learned to push my limits and exceed them. All those skills have made me a different person. I would say that the majority of veterans also learned to be different.

It is often said, once a soldier always a soldier. It is true. The people we served with will always be our brothers and sisters. The Canadian flag will always have a special meaning for us. Every day for the rest of our lives, our national anthem, O Canada, will stir up certain emotions. Maybe that is why I am so proud to sing it every Wednesday. Even though I do not have such a great singing voice, I love singing our national anthem.

There is something else that is different about us. Even if soldiers do not believe in the politics of a mission—we agree that soldiers have political opinions—we still want to go because we do not want to let our brothers and sisters go alone. We want to participate even if, in the end, we do not believe the political reasons the people we serve under have given for the mission.

We help and support one another. I remember that, when I was a soldier, even though I weighed only 110 pounds—I will not say how much I weigh now, but at the time I was quite petite—I grabbed a second rucksack and carried it because one of my colleagues was injured. I walked with two rucksacks. Even though they weighed approximately 60 to 80 pounds each, I did it. Another time, I took a C9 machine gun, which is a heavier weapon, and I gave my much lighter gun to an injured colleague. I wanted him to carry a lighter load.

We take care of one another. Even when the problems are psychological, we try to support one another as best we can. However, it is problematic when too many people have mental health issues and are suffering. Someone who is injured and hurting cannot help his or her colleagues as much. There is an imbalance and that is when there is a problem.

The number of disturbing stories I have heard is nevertheless surprising. A colleague told me that he saw a river in Rwanda that was red with blood and had corpses floating in it. He will carry those images with him for the rest of his life. I also heard about Yugoslavia. A colleague took down bodies that had been nailed to a wall. That too stays with you for the rest of your life. People have told me about unimaginable injuries, smells that will stay with them forever. All those images stay in your mind. Why did they tell me about them? Maybe because they thought that I could understand, that I would know what they were experiencing and that I would be able to listen without judging.

Canadian Forces members often talk about why they joined the military, but they do not often talk about why they left.

Today, I am going to talk about those reasons. I would like to say that all of our men and women in uniform are truly wonderful people who are dedicated to their duty. I have nothing bad to say about any of the people in uniform I served with.

However, after being assigned to the holding platoon for various reasons, I realized that the managers and administrators who do not wear a uniform are sometimes—and I would even go so far as to say often—out of touch with the reality and the practical needs of the people on the ground. At the time, I was an officer cadet, but I told myself that I would not be able to give explanations to the soldiers. When a soldier would come and see me to ask why his medical file had been on hold for over a year, I would be unable to explain to him why the government had not taken action.

At first, I wanted to stay, but I finally decided to leave the armed forces. The first thing I did after I left, in December 2005, was to run in the federal election as the NDP candidate for the riding of Abitibi—Témiscamingue. It was one of the first things I did. I decided that I was going to fight for my former brothers and sisters, that I was going to try to make a difference for them. I decided to fight for the things that are important to me, to fight for my home region and for the people who watched me grow up. I am very happy to do so. It is a different way of fighting, but it is just as important.

Soldiers are taught how to fight and to go to war. They become experts in this area. However, they are not taught how to fight with words against public servants who force them to fill out an endless number of forms and go through countless processes. Veterans have said that they get the impression that they are at war against their government.

It is unbelievable. They are experiencing mental anguish because of all the horrific images they have in their minds from the atrocities they have witnessed. However, when they ask for help, all the government seems to want to do is undermine them; put obstacles in their way; and think nothing of sending them here, there and everywhere in search of documents.

They are told to find help online or on the phone. It is already hard to talk about what they went through in person, to someone they know or to their loved ones. It is already hard to speak to a sympathetic-looking person, and now they are being told that they will have to try talking about their emotions online or on the phone. That makes no sense. If they manage to get professional help, there is a good chance that this professional will be tired and worn out because there are never as many professionals as are needed.

In light of this, is it so surprising that the stress is causing some people to commit suicide? The minister does not think it is right to link the suicides to the closing of the centres. I do not think it is right that the Conservatives are not asking whether closing these centres will increase the risk of psychological stress and suicide. That is not right, and the minister needs to put a stop to this.

We ask soldiers to be brave and to fight. We asked soldiers not to be afraid to give their life for their country. However, now, Conservative members are unable to rise and are all too afraid to tell the Prime Minister and the Minister of Veterans Affairs that this is not the right thing to do. Is that it? Do they lack the honour to be able to say that?

It is unacceptable, and that is why I believe that all members should adopt the NDP's motion. They should all say that no, we will not abandon our veterans.