House of Commons Hansard #50 of the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was democracy.

Topics

Business of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

3:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Speaker Conservative Andrew Scheer

There is no consent.

The House resumed consideration of the motion.

Opposition Motion—Instruction to the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs Regarding Bill C-23Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

3:20 p.m.

Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre Saskatchewan

Conservative

Tom Lukiwski ConservativeParliamentary Secretary to the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons

Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased to stand in the House today to speak to the motion brought forward by my colleagues in the official opposition. However, and I think it will come as no surprise to members of the opposition, I certainly oppose the motion that the official opposition has brought forward.

It is also very important for Canadians to understand the context in which we are having this debate. The fair elections act has passed second reading and has been referred to committee. That committee is procedure and House affairs, of which I am a member. We have had the opportunity to begin examination of that bill starting two meetings ago, yet no examination has occurred except for one hour of presentation and participation by the Minister of State for Democratic Reform.

Since that time there has been no examination of the bill whatsoever, because members of the NDP, in particular the NDP critic for democratic reform, have been filibustering the committee. Why have they been filibustering? It is because the NDP, supported by the Liberals, have said that they want to see cross-country hearings on the content of the bill, and until they get a commitment from the government to engage in cross-country consultations, they will refuse to hear witnesses at the committee level.

This is a gross misuse of power. Obviously, opposition members have the ability, procedurally, to filibuster. We have certainly allowed that to happen. The irony is that all members from the opposition benches have said this is such an important piece of legislation, that Canadians need to be consulted, and that we need to hear testimony about the contents of the bill, yet they are preventing testimony from being heard at the committee level simply because they do not like the government's proposal to hear testimony at the committee level here in Ottawa.

Members of the opposition feel that effective and accurate testimony and widespread consultation with Canadians is paramount. They feel that without that cross-country tour, information and input from Canadians would be lacking. I cannot more vociferously and fundamentally disagree with their contention.

Let me first point out that I have heard today in debate from members of the opposition that our government is trying to stifle debate and is trying to prevent witnesses from appearing before the committee. Nothing could be further from the truth.

I, as many members would know, have been a primary government spokesperson on this issue, and I have stated publicly on a number of occasions that our government is willing to hear testimony from anyone in this country who has testimony they feel would be important for our committee to receive. We can do that with today's technology very easily.

I doubt very much, despite the protestations of my friends opposite, that anyone in Canada who would like to give testimony before our committee would be prevented from doing so, given the state of today's technology. Whether it be through Skype, teleconference, or a number of other avenues that we have before us, literally every single Canadian would have the ability to forward testimony to our committee.

Members opposite have said that is simply not true. They have said that there are many people in remote areas of this country, on reserves, or in rural Canada who do not have access to the Internet, for example, and who could not get on Skype. I would suggest that anyone with a computer or with access to a computer would have access to our committee. If there is an individual in a certain location in this country that does not have Internet service, we will get them to the nearest location that provides Internet service so that we would be able to hear their testimony.

I have also stated quite publicly that our committee would be willing to meet at least 12 or 13 times to hear testimony.

To put that into context, most Canadians may be unaware of exactly how long a bill is normally examined. I can assure the Speaker that members in this place know as well as I do that the study of a bill, regardless of what legislation is being proposed, usually does not take 12 or 13 meetings for a full examination. Even our budget bills have not taken that length of time.

Yet, we have committed to hearing testimony, to sitting in committee, and to examining this bill, for up to 13 separate two-hour meetings because we feel that this is an important bill and should be scrutinized and examined carefully. To again put that into context, if we met for 13 separate occasions, on average that would be two to three times longer than a normal piece of legislation is examined by standing committees in this place. We are committed to that.

The opposition members who are talking the talk do not seem to be walking the walk. They are stating that while they feel this is an extremely important piece of legislation and should be examined carefully and thoroughly, they are refusing to allow the committee to do its work. They are refusing to allow witnesses to come forward and speak to the bill. That is all we are asking for. If they want to examine the bill, that is tremendous; so do we.

Are there improvements that could be made? Perhaps there could be. We have indicated that we would be open to any reasonable amendment that makes sense. We are not trying to ram this piece of legislation through, as the opposition would try to have Canadians believe. We are committed to putting more time in to the examination of this bill than probably any other piece of legislation that members have seen in this place. I would challenge any member sitting here today to tell me what other piece of legislation has been granted that amount of time for study because, frankly, there has not been. The opposition members are continually saying that the government is trying to ram this through. That is pure and utter hogwash.

I would also point out that the opposition members have stated publicly that they have two primary problems with this bill. Why are we not examining those provisions of the bill? One issue is on the voter ID card. The fair elections act would do away with the voter ID card as we now know it. The second is the vouching practice. The fair elections act would dispose of the current practice that allows certain individuals to vouch for a potential voter who does not have the proper identification.

The reason that the fair elections act would do away with those two provisions is because, unfortunately, there is too much opportunity for abuse and voter fraud by both the use of voter ID cards and by vouching. Had we been engaged in committee hearings right now, undoubtedly we would have heard from, or at least we would have scheduled appearances of those people who could testify to fraud that has occurred in previous elections because of these two elements of the current practice of administering elections.

The voter ID card does not definitively prove the identity of any Canadian. With the permanent registry of electors, a card is sent out in the mail to individuals. However, it is not absolute proof that the person who is in possession of that voter ID card is actually the person who is entitled to vote.

We have heard a lot of debate over the past few weeks, and even today, where members are saying that voting is a privilege and a right. We could have a debate on whether or not it is a right or a privilege. What certainly cannot be denied is that voting means that the person casting a ballot has to be eligible; in other words, they have to be able to prove that they are the one who is eligible to vote. That is not an unusual demand or request to put upon Canadians. If we are not able to identify the individual who wants to cast a ballot, how do we know that person is eligible to cast a ballot? That is all that the fair elections act does.

Now, there will be some who argue that the provisions contained in the fair elections act are too cumbersome, unwieldy, and would actually disenfranchise people. Members of the opposition have pointed to statistics saying that in the last federal election there were 100,000 people who cast ballots because someone vouched for their identity and that if we did away with vouching those people would somehow be disenfranchised. I, again, beg to differ. I certainly do not know all of the 100,000 people who were vouched for in the last election, but I do know this. Over my five terms in office as a member of Parliament, I have seen voting practices in my riding, and every time we have had a federal election I have seen vouching in action. While I agree that many times the person who is vouched for is indeed eligible to vote, on many occasions it is not because they did not have the proper identification. Many times, frankly, they show up at the polling booth, and when asked to produce identification, they say they forgot it. They say that they have a driver's licence but do not have it with them, so someone then vouches for them.

One of the provisions of the Canada Elections Act is that Elections Canada devotes all of its advertising and considerable resources to educating Canadians and letting them know, not only when and where to vote, but what proper identification they must possess to prove their identity. That is all we are saying. If we cannot properly identify potential voters, how do we know these voters are in fact who they say they are?

There have been arguments raised by members of the opposition that perhaps there are many people who have been vouched for in the last few elections who have the proper identification and did not have it on their person when they came to the polls but that there are many other people who do not have the proper identification that is needed. That is why in the fair elections act we have increased the number of documents that would be eligible for identification purposes to 39 different documents that could be used to prove the identity of a potential voter. If there is anyone in this country who cannot come up with two out of those 39 pieces of identification, that individual probably was not planning to vote in the first place.

We have heard examples of people in first nations and on reserves who perhaps do not have a driver's licence and lack the common pieces of identification that many other Canadians in, say, urban centres have. One of the provisions is that first nations members could get an attestation from anyone on the band council, stating that they are so and so and reside on this reserve. If individuals do not have a driver's licence or any commonly familiar pieces of identification, they could get something from their own council member stating that they reside there and are therefore eligible to vote.

As well, every Canadian has the ability to have a birth certificate. Most Canadians have bank accounts and therefore have something like a common debit card. University students, who perhaps do not drive and cannot produce a driver's licence, certainly have student cards, and they certainly have transcripts of their marks from their educational institution. All of these types of documents, and many more, would be proper identification under the fair elections act. We are not trying to disenfranchise anyone in Canada from voting; it is just the opposite. However, we want to ensure that fraud does not take place. That is all we are stating.

Another complaint that I have heard from members opposite is that by preventing these cross-country consultations we are in fact denying any consultation whatsoever. They also point out, and wrongly argue I would suggest, that no consultation was engaged prior to the drafting of the bill.

Let me point out the disingenuous nature of that argument. In the provisions of the fair elections act, there are 38 recommendations that were made by the current Chief Electoral Officer. I would ask members opposite, if there has been no consultation, how then do we have 38 recommendations that the Chief Electoral Officer made?

Of course, there have been consultations. I have been sitting on the procedure and House affairs committee since 2006, when we first formed government. We have heard, not only from this Chief Electoral Officer, but his predecessor, on many, many occasions. We have had many discussions with those individuals as to the type of elements they would like in any new election act that is brought forward. There were 38 recommendations from the current Chief Electoral Officer. How can the opposition say there have not been consultations? It does not make sense.

I would also point out that the first point of contact when trying to get consultations and feedback from Canadians are members of Parliament themselves. I do not know what my friends and colleagues in the opposition do, but when we introduce a piece of legislation as important as this, I consult with my constituents. I find out what they have to say about things like vouching and voter ID cards, and our attempts to make the commissioner of elections independent from Elections Canada itself. I get that consultation. That is my job.

Apparently members on the government side may be the only ones doing their jobs because the opposition members say we are not consulting, that we need to hear from Canadians. What do they think their job is? They need to be consulting with their constituents and Canadians and bringing that feedback to committee.

There is no argument that I have heard from members opposite that would change my mind on whether there is a need for cross-country consultations. We can do the job here. We should be doing the job right now. However, because of the filibuster engaged in by members opposite, we are hearing from no one.

I want to hear from the Chief Electoral Officer. I would love to hear from the former chief electoral officer, who, by the way, has examined our legislation and, as he said, if he were giving a grade in a Master's class, he would give it an A-. That is a pretty good grade.

Are there ways that we could improve upon the legislation? Of course, there are. I do not think there has been a piece of legislation brought forward by our government, or any government previously, that could not in some way, shape, or fashion have been improved. That is what committees do. They thoroughly examine legislation, provide amendments, and suggest improvements. The committee then analyzes, discusses, hears testimony, and finally presents a piece of legislation to this House for further debate and an ultimate vote.

We are doing none of that now because the opposition does not want debate on the bill. We know why. Its members have stated publicly, before they even read the bill, that they were going to oppose it. The democratic reform critic, the member for Toronto—Danforth, a learned man and someone I frankly admire and respect, came out before he even read the bill and said they were going to oppose this.

I think, if nothing else, that tells the position of the opposition.

In conclusion, let me just say this. I have read the bill. I look forward to its examination in committee, whenever we get there. I sincerely applaud the work of the Minister of State for Democratic Reform for bringing a bill forward that would address a lot of the problems we have had in this country with things like fraudulent voting and big money that has influenced elections. I look forward to putting provisions in the bill to prevent those types of things from happening again.

It is a bill worth examination. I only suggest to my colleagues opposite that they allow us to do the proper examination that the bill deserves.

Opposition Motion—Instruction to the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs Regarding Bill C-23Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

3:40 p.m.

NDP

Tyrone Benskin NDP Jeanne-Le Ber, QC

Mr. Speaker, there is a whole whack of things I would love to ask the hon. member, but time is limited. I want to explore the technological question and put this to the member. Is he aware of the limitations of technology? Technology is a wonderful thing. I love technology and I am a tech guy, but there are limitations to technology that a live appearance will always outdo.

In the last budget the government put in an awareness that the rural areas are greatly in need of enhancement as far as high-speed connectivity is concerned, which is the basis of a lot of this technology. However, being in a community and being able to hear from multiple people, as opposed to one person on camera, is hugely important for a bill of this nature, which changes the nature in which people vote.

Will the member speak to that limitation and agree that face-to-face meetings with communities would be more advantageous than a one-on-one face on a camera?

Opposition Motion—Instruction to the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs Regarding Bill C-23Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Tom Lukiwski Conservative Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK

Mr. Speaker, no. I said earlier, if the member was listening to me, that one of the roles that members of Parliament have is to speak to constituents. I certainly talk to my constituents about the bill, but I would like to hear back from members who have done the same, if they have done so.

In terms of whether it would be better to take a full committee with complementary staff to travel thousands of miles, incurring perhaps hundreds of thousands of dollars in expense, than to get people who want to provide testimony before our committee into an area where they could actually sit in front of a camera and speak with committee members, quite frankly, we can do that with ease. We can arrange for anyone who wants to provide testimony to do so. It does not necessitate the time and expense of having a committee travel across Canada.

We want to hear from Canadians. The bill would allow us to do so, if only we can start engaging in the examination of the bill itself. However, because of the attempts by opposition members to filibuster, we are not hearing from anyone. No examination is taking place at the current time, and that is a shame.

Opposition Motion—Instruction to the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs Regarding Bill C-23Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Wayne Easter Liberal Malpeque, PE

Mr. Speaker, I listened to the hon. member's remarks, and on his last point I would have to ask him how much our democracy is worth. Is it a matter of dollars? I do not think so. The member went on, with some great lines, that it has been referred to committee. Keep in mind that the bill was referred to committee after closure was placed in this chamber on the most important umbrella document in terms of how elections work and how people are elected.

The member said they would hold 26 hours of hearings. That is nothing. He asked if there is any other legislation. I remember lots of legislation by previous governments, even with the fisheries committee, that took hundreds of hours. Look at the GST hearings that were held by the Mulroney government, because they were big comprehensive issues and Canadians needed to be heard in their own areas.

Is not the real reason the government is so intent on holding hearings in Ottawa that it can basically manipulate the committee more easily, as it has done in the past? Committees have become an absolute farce. If members move a motion, the government shoves it into secret and Canadians cannot even see or read how members voted. If the committee hearings are held in Ottawa, it is easier for the whip to hold backbenchers in line on the Conservative side, who do not have the backbone to stand and speak for Canadians. Is that not the real reason why Conservatives want committee--

Opposition Motion—Instruction to the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs Regarding Bill C-23Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

3:45 p.m.

NDP

The Deputy Speaker NDP Joe Comartin

Order. The hon. parliamentary secretary.

Opposition Motion—Instruction to the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs Regarding Bill C-23Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Tom Lukiwski Conservative Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK

There is so much wrong with that, Mr. Speaker, that I really do not know where to begin. Let me try to correct the many inaccuracies of my friend from Malpeque.

I talked about 12 to 13 meetings being at least two to three times longer. I did not say how long in total. Since committees are the master of their own destiny, we could have extended meetings. We have offered to do so, and I have stated so publicly.

The member asked if it was not true that we want to put meetings in camera so the Canadian public cannot find out how we vote. We have already stated we will have the meetings in public, but the member does not agree with that. That member does not agree with anything we say, but that is no reason for him to spout inaccuracies about our position. We want to assure Canadians that this will receive proper examination.

The member spoke about hours of debate in the House. He knows as well as I do that the real work gets done in committee. Every member knows that. That is what we are attempting to do. It is the opposition that filibusters and does not allow witnesses to come forward.

Who does the member really think is preventing democracy from occurring: an opposition that refuses to allow committees to do their work, or our government that is suggesting enhanced and extended public meetings with as many witnesses as the opposition wishes to put forward? Who is really standing in the way of democracy?

Opposition Motion—Instruction to the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs Regarding Bill C-23Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

3:45 p.m.

Green

Elizabeth May Green Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC

Mr. Speaker, I have read Bill C-23 carefully. It is important for all members to note that it does not list what forms of ID would be acceptable. The process would be much harder than my hon. colleague seems to understand; for instance, I'll turn to some of the examples he used. Could a student with a student card vote? No. Imagine that student has a student card and a transcript? Could that student vote? No. Imagine that student has a student card, a transcript, and a birth certificate, all IDs mentioned by my hon. friend. Could that student vote? No. Students could not vote unless they were responsible for the utility bills at their place of residence and they had a bill to prove their residence. This is a complicated area and could eliminate the right to vote.

My friend asked if it is a privilege or a right to vote. He just needs to look at section 3 of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, which says that voting is a right.

We do not have a fraud scandal in this country. We do not have any evidence that Canadians are voting more than once. We have evidence that people are trying to confuse voters by sending them to the wrong polling stations. We have a lot of evidence that Canadians are losing trust in the system and are not getting out to vote. We do not have any evidence of the idea that Canadians are voting more than once. Our problem is that they are voting less than once.

Opposition Motion—Instruction to the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs Regarding Bill C-23Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Tom Lukiwski Conservative Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK

Mr. Speaker, with reference to the member's last point, had we been engaged in hearings at the committee level, we would have heard testimony that people have voted more than once. There is proof of voter fraud. Unfortunately, that cannot be presented at committee because the opposition is refusing to allow witnesses to come forward who could provide that type of evidence.

I also stated, and the member should be aware of this, that out of the 39 pieces of documentation that are available, 2 of those 39 would be required, 1 with a name and 2 with addresses. I would again put my offer forward. I would be surprised if the opposition could produce a list of Canadians who would not have any of those 39 documents to prove that they have the right to vote. We need an examination at committee, even if there were the odd example. If those members think that the list of 39 documents is insufficient, then they should bring forward other suggestions. We cannot even do that because the opposition is refusing to allow the committee to do its work and refusing to allow a thorough examination of the bill.

Opposition Motion—Instruction to the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs Regarding Bill C-23Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Joe Preston Conservative Elgin—Middlesex—London, ON

Mr. Speaker, currently at committee we are not getting to the point of this piece of legislation. We have a motion before the committee, which is almost exactly the same as the motion we are debating today that says exactly what the committee must do, and that is to lay it out, do not let the committee decide, but just do what today's motion says. I have been chair of a committee in this place for a long time. I have never seen committee work done this way before. I have certainly not seen it done here in the House.

Could the parliamentary secretary tell me if we have had difficulty in committee before with respect to picking witnesses or planning our studies or the way to move forward? Would it not be better to be talking about that?

Opposition Motion—Instruction to the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs Regarding Bill C-23Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Tom Lukiwski Conservative Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK

Mr. Speaker, I agree completely with my colleague, who is the chair of the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs. This is not the way to handle a committee. We do not put forward a motion saying here is what the committee must do.

Committees are the masters of their own agenda. Frankly, as I have stated publicly and as I have stated again today, our government has said that if members want to put forward a list of witnesses, we are not going to oppose it. We want to hear from people.

This contention from the opposition that we are somehow trying to ramrod this bill through, without hearing from Canadians who want to speak to the bill, is absolutely false. It is disingenuous, and the opposition should be ashamed for trying to take what we have given, which is a sincere effort to open up and allow further witnesses to come forward.

Why do we not, as a committee, just get to work?

Opposition Motion—Instruction to the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs Regarding Bill C-23Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

3:50 p.m.

NDP

Pierre-Luc Dusseault NDP Sherbrooke, QC

Mr. Speaker, I would like to start by saying that I will be sharing my time with the member for Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot.

I am pleased to speak today to the very important motion moved by the NDP. It has come to this with the debate on Bill C-23, An Act to amend the Canada Elections Act and other Acts and to make consequential amendments to certain Acts.

This involves a law that is vital in a democracy. The Canada Elections Act is the most important law for our democracy. It is considered to be almost constitutional. We must examine the proposed changes with the greatest respect for democracy and Parliament, because the latter is responsible for this act.

The act was amended in the past. However, this is the first time, if my memory serves me well, that a government wants to amend it in such a cavalier manner. The government has not even bothered to consult or approach the other parties in this House, even though the other political parties participate in all elections and the democratic process.

Not only have the Conservatives failed to consult the parties, but they are also introducing legislation that will make draconian changes to the Canada Elections Act. I will not go into the details of the bill because I have already done so at debate on second reading.

However, I do not think that this is how the government should have gone about changing the Canada Elections Act. From the outset, the government has been trying to move forward with this as quickly as possible. Why? The reason is simple. The government is trying to hide things. The bill contains things that the Conservatives do not want to spend a lot of time talking about.

In fact, the government wants to move on to something else as quickly as possible, as is the case with most of the bills it introduces. The government tries to expedite the process in order to ensure that bills are passed very quickly before the public has time to realize what is happening. Once the Canada Elections Act has been amended, there will be no going back, unless we want to go through the lengthy process of amending the law again.

I am clearly very concerned about this issue. The bill makes significant changes that could affect certain segments of the population, namely young people. We have heard this during today's debate and at other times as well.

In Sherbrooke, there are two universities, one of which is located in my riding. There are also a number of colleges and CEGEPs. I therefore feel quite strongly about this issue.

As an MP, it is my duty to represent the interests of the people of Sherbrooke when it comes to this bill and today's motion, which deals specifically with consultations.

The committee should hold consultations across Canada, including in the Eastern Townships and Sherbrooke, which are areas that could be affected by this bill. It is the committee's duty to do so.

We are often asked why the House should tell a committee what it needs to do. I think the reason is quite simple: all the resources available to the committee have already been exhausted. The request has already been made and all the possibilities have been exhausted. As the chair of a committee, I can attest that the committee will continue to control its own destiny and agenda, no matter what happens.

If the House votes in favour of this motion, that would put pressure on the members of the committee in question. They would practically be forced to move forward and abide by the decision of the House as a whole.

I think that is what it has come to because we have already exhausted all the other avenues with the requests made in committee that were rejected by the Conservatives. We hope that this time, because all MPs will vote, some from across the way will see the light and vote with us on this motion that we have moved. We hope to be able to hold the consultations that we have been calling for since the bill was introduced, so that we can go directly to the people this affects. I think that is the key in all this.

I think this is the least we can do, given how important this law is for our democracy and how much respect we have for it. This has been done in a number of other files, for a number of other bills. Consultations have been held across Canada for various things. Earlier, other members gave examples of bills that were before parliamentary committees. Those committees decided to travel and hold consultations on those various bills.

Today, we have a bill to change the Elections Act, and the government is refusing to hold any consultations and talk to Canadians about this. It makes us wonder how important the Canada Elections Act is to the government when it cannot accept a request as simple as holding consultations like the ones that have been held for many other bills in the past.

It makes us wonder what the Conservatives are afraid of. That is the question that comes to my mind when I see the Conservatives opposing the idea of talking to Canadians. They must be afraid of something. We already heard the Parliamentary Secretary to the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons say in committee that it would be a circus, a ridiculous spectacle. I do not remember his exact words, but he seemed to be ridiculing the idea of consulting Canadians. The parliamentary secretary seemed to be saying that it was ridiculous, there was no point and we should not consult Canadians.

We completely disagree. I think that we would see the complete opposite. It would be even more helpful for the committee members who will study the bill. After several consultation sessions, the committee members would be able to go through the bill clause by clause, taking into account what they heard in the various communities across Canada, whether it was on aboriginal reserves—which we think will be significantly affected—on university campuses or in seniors' homes. These are examples of places the committee could visit to make a better study of this bill.

I think this bill has a number of shortcomings, and I think that consultation is the best way to make improvements. I may be naive, but even after three years here, I have faith that it is possible to improve this bill. Maybe I am kidding myself, but I still think it is possible.

The best way to improve the bill is to consult the people who will be affected by the changes to the Canada Elections Act. This may involve some amendments to the bill, because we will truly know what kind of impact these changes will have and how we can improve the bill. I hope that will be possible.

I ask my colleagues in all parties to support this motion to consult all Canadians across the country.

Opposition Motion—Instruction to the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs Regarding Bill C-23Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

4 p.m.

Liberal

Ted Hsu Liberal Kingston and the Islands, ON

Mr. Speaker, if a committee went on the road to speak to Canadians about this bill, which affects how we choose our federal government, one question I would ask people, which we could not do in committee here on the Hill, is to put up their hand if they could donate $1,200 to an election candidate, which is the maximum amount. I bet very few hands would go up because very few people could afford to donate that much. Then I would ask them why we should give those people who already donate the maximum even more influence in the political process when most people cannot afford that. That is the sort of thing we could do by going across the country.

I would ask my colleague to comment on that.

Opposition Motion—Instruction to the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs Regarding Bill C-23Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

4:05 p.m.

NDP

Pierre-Luc Dusseault NDP Sherbrooke, QC

Mr. Speaker, the ultimate goal is to hold consultations from one end of the country to the other, not just in Ottawa. It is a question of speaking with people who have real-life examples and experiences to share. They may be able to add something to the debate.

Here, in Ottawa, we will hear from experts who have studied the elections act, but that is not enough. It is very important to hear from them when we are studying a bill, but it is also very important to hear from people who cannot travel here and who have real-life examples to share. That is impossible if we stay in Ottawa.

When we hold consultations, people are able to hear testimony or to make a presentation when a committee stops in a nearby city. However, that becomes impossible when committees sit only in Ottawa. It is not that easy for people outside Ottawa to add their voices and be heard.

Therefore, it is to the committee's benefit to go to them—that way, we can hear testimony that we surely would not hear if we were to stay here, in the Ottawa bubble.

Opposition Motion—Instruction to the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs Regarding Bill C-23Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

4:05 p.m.

Oak Ridges—Markham Ontario

Conservative

Paul Calandra ConservativeParliamentary Secretary to the Prime Minister and for Intergovernmental Affairs

Mr. Speaker, we have heard a lot from the opposition members with respect to the debate. However, it seems to always come down to a couple of key factors for them. One is an increase in the maximum amount of money Canadians can contribute, should they wish to. Page 185 of the bill outlines that it increases by $25 a year starting January 1.

The opposition talk about vouching. On page 25 of the bill, subsection 143(3) identifies that it gives the polling clerk some leeway when there is no clear indication of address. I asked the member a question about that section the last time he spoke to this. We still have not heard an answer from the NDP on how that provision can be improved.

It further talks about giving political parties an opportunity to seek rulings from the Elections Commissioner. We have not heard any response on that. That could include what forms of ID are required.

We also hear a lot about the outreach and education function of the Chief Electoral Officer. However, when we look at page 10 of the report of the last election from the returning officers, the people who run the elections, they support the government's position of what Elections Canada should do in order to increase voter turnout.

Those are the areas that the NDP and the Liberals keep focusing on. We have been at this for a number of hours and days and not once have they come up with even one thing to change any of those sections.

Opposition Motion—Instruction to the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs Regarding Bill C-23Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

4:05 p.m.

NDP

Pierre-Luc Dusseault NDP Sherbrooke, QC

Mr. Speaker, I have only 50 seconds to respond to a very broad question.

The member seems to be saying that I did not talk about the points he raised, but today's motion is not about the actual content of the bill. It is about holding public hearings across Canada. I already made a speech about the content of the bill.

With all due respect, Mr. Speaker, I am discussing the subject of the motion we are studying, which is about holding Canada-wide consultations. I spoke about that in my speech because that is the subject of debate today.

I hope to have the support of all my colleagues opposite to pass this NDP motion.

Opposition Motion—Instruction to the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs Regarding Bill C-23Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

4:05 p.m.

NDP

The Deputy Speaker NDP Joe Comartin

It is my duty pursuant to Standing Order 38 to inform the House that the questions to be raised tonight at the time of adjournment are as follows: the hon. member for Brome—Missisquoi, The Environment; the hon. member for Saint-Jean, Rail Transportation; and the hon. member for Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, Science and Technology.

Opposition Motion—Instruction to the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs Regarding Bill C-23Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

4:10 p.m.

NDP

Marie-Claude Morin NDP Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to rise today because I want to help protect something that is very precious to Canadians: our democracy.

The motion moved by the member for Hamilton Centre is a reasonable response to the Conservatives' misguided efforts with respect to democracy. As my colleague from Sherbrooke said earlier, this is electoral “deformation”.

What we are asking for is not complicated. We want Canadians and stakeholder groups to have a chance to express their views on these significant changes to our election legislation. When I say Canadians and stakeholder groups, I mean Elections Canada, the minister, of course, first nations, anti-poverty groups, people with disabilities, youth and students from all parts of the country, urban, rural and remote alike.

The committee has to travel. It cannot stay here in the ivory tower in Ottawa. No one can deny that Ottawa is an ivory tower. When we are here, we do not know what is going on in the rest of Canada.

Many committees travel in the course of their duties. Going to see people is essential. We have no choice. I do not see why the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs would not travel in this case. The government will say that it would be an expense, and I agree. However, some expenses are essential to democracy, and consulting the people is one such expense.

I think that, in devising this reform, the Conservatives did not pay much attention to people's reality. I think they could not care less. They are not spending money on the right things, if you ask me, and this is a serious threat to our democracy.

Since we are talking about democracy, I would like to take a little step back. The word “democracy” means “power to the people”. We all agree on that. I think the government is afraid of the people. The Conservatives are well aware that because they came up with such a bad bill, consulting people who are worried about this kind of reform might not go well. People would put the Conservatives in their place. That might be what happens.

I have not had the opportunity to speak to Bill C-23, the subject of our motion. I would like to provide a brief overview to illustrate how essential our motion is and how badly the government has botched this bill.

To start, this bill will strip Election Canada of its investigative powers. The Commissioner of Canada Elections will now be under the Director of Public Prosecutions. That would be like removing the RCMP's ability to investigate Criminal Code offences. It makes absolutely no sense. This is a serious change that will prove to be completely ineffective.

Furthermore, the government also wants to take away the Chief Electoral Officer's power to engage in public education, but public education is essential. This will in no way contribute to increasing voter turnout. The Chief Electoral Officer will not be able to talk to people about aspects of the electoral process or work to prevent electoral fraud. This is especially problematic.

The Chief Electoral Officer will also have to seek Treasury Board approval to hire experts. This is serious interference in the work of a senior official. That is not so unusual around here, as we know that the government enjoys that type of thing. However, this makes our electoral system less effective and again threatens our democracy.

The bill will also eliminate the ability of electors to prove their identity through vouching. This may seem minor, but it is a very serious issue. Some people will no longer be able to vote. Let us take for example an elderly woman who does not have a driver's licence and whose accounts are all in her husband's name. She will not be able to vote. Another example is a student who has a student card but does not have a driver's licence. That person will not be able to vote.

I would also like to add that voter information cards will no longer be able to be used as proof of identity. This creates the same problem.

The bill also increases the maximum threshold for individual donations from $1,200 to $1,500. This means that the electoral process would continue to favour people with money. Why are we doing this when Quebec did just the opposite? Quebec decreased the maximum amount of donations. I therefore do not see why we are doing the opposite. It does not make any sense.

The bill will also make it possible for candidates to contribute $5,000 to their own campaigns. I would like to give a very specific example. When I ran for my party, I had little to no money. If this bill had been in effect at that time, I could not have run for office and I would not be here right now. However, my constituents tell me that I am living up to their expectations. This bill would therefore rule out quality candidates who do not have the money to contribute to their campaign. Money is always being put first and foremost.

As I was saying earlier, many committees travel in the course of their duties and that is essential. I do not see why committees should be prevented from going to consult with Canadians. I want to reiterate that I believe that the government is afraid of what might come out of those consultations. To reassure my colleagues, I would like to add that I often hold consultations in my riding on anything and everything. I like consulting my constituents and finding out what they think about many topics.

The government should start doing that because it is essential, particularly since this bill has a direct impact on various segments of the population that need to share their opinions. Consulting these people will only help us to do a better job, and of course, we should go to them rather than making them to come to Ottawa. It is really important.

As I was saying earlier, good things do not come cheap. We need to move forward and improve our electoral system. Electoral reform would be a good thing, of course, but not in this way. This is not the right approach. That is my opinion and that of all my colleagues here at this time. You cannot impose things on people in this way, by ramming them down their throats and telling them that this is how it will be from now on. We do not do that in our country. We have a democratic country that is a great place to live. We want to keep it that way. That is not what the government is doing at this time.

This government is jeopardizing a number of things, and that is very problematic. If the Conservatives were to accept this motion, it would be a good start, because consulting people and implementing real electoral reforms together with the people is a step in the right direction.

Opposition Motion—Instruction to the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs Regarding Bill C-23Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

4:15 p.m.

Oak Ridges—Markham Ontario

Conservative

Paul Calandra ConservativeParliamentary Secretary to the Prime Minister and for Intergovernmental Affairs

Mr. Speaker, I will come back to it again. The member talked about vouching. She talked about a senior whose bills are all in her husband's name. Had the member actually read the bill, on page 25, on subsection 143(3), she would have seen that this is actually addressed. The polling clerk would have an opportunity to address that. Apparently the member missed that section.

The member also talked about the education feature. The returning officers' postmortem of the 41st general election, on page 10, talks about one of the things the returning officers identified as being the biggest problem in the last election and what could help improve voter turnout.

...ROs identified that there is a need to give out more information to electors; for example, there are not enough outreach activities and communications about where the RO office is located and on the voting process. They suggest taking out ads explaining that advance polls will be busier. Even if it was the day after, this would help ease voter complaints about long wait times.They also recommended being more proactive in informing the public about specific voting issues, and more advertisement on the Special Ballot process.

What they talked about was actually telling Canadians how to vote and about advance polls to make it easier for Canadians. That is what the people who run elections think would help make elections better.

Why is it that the member opposite rejects what the returning officers across this country pointed out as the—

Opposition Motion—Instruction to the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs Regarding Bill C-23Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

4:20 p.m.

NDP

The Deputy Speaker NDP Joe Comartin

The hon. member for Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot.

Opposition Motion—Instruction to the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs Regarding Bill C-23Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

4:20 p.m.

NDP

Marie-Claude Morin NDP Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC

Mr. Speaker, I did not hear a question from my colleague.

Therefore, I will not be answering a question and will instead repeat that, in my opinion, this process has been botched. Canadians must be consulted again and again and again.

That is all I have to say in response to that so-called question.

Opposition Motion—Instruction to the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs Regarding Bill C-23Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

Kevin Lamoureux Liberal Winnipeg North, MB

Mr. Speaker, people all over Canada are concerned about what the Conservative government is doing with respect to Bill C-23. In fact there were 3,000-plus delegates at the Liberal Party convention, and one of the priority resolutions was on this issue.

If I could quote directly from it, it says:

Whereas, instead of correcting these problems, Bill C-23 will amend the Canada Elections Act by: Further restricting access to voting by disallowing vouching for voters, thereby preventing approximately 120,000 Canadians from voting; Threatening the independence of the Commissioner of Canada Elections, by making this position part of government rather than leaving it with Elections Canada, which is independently answerable to Parliament; Prohibiting the Chief Electoral Officer from communicating broadly with Canadians;

This is my personal favourite:

Hampering investigations into election breaches, by failing to give the Commissioner the power to compel witnesses to answer questions or provide documents;

This issue is very serious. The question we really need to get answered is why the government opposes taking this committee to Canadians by taking it to different cities in Canada in different regions so that Canadians have an opportunity to express their concerns directly to the government on a fundamental law that affects one of our principle foundations, that being democracy.

Why does the member think the government is so tough in not wanting to go outside Ottawa to hear what Canadians have to say?

Opposition Motion—Instruction to the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs Regarding Bill C-23Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

February 24th, 2014 / 4:20 p.m.

NDP

Marie-Claude Morin NDP Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC

Mr. Speaker, I was not sure that I would hear a question, but it came out finally.

I believe that the government does not want to consult the public because it is afraid of the people, as I mentioned earlier in my speech. In fact, as I was saying, democracy means power to the people. In my opinion, if a government does not consult its people, that is a sign that it is afraid of them.

Opposition Motion—Instruction to the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs Regarding Bill C-23Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

Brad Butt Conservative Mississauga—Streetsville, ON

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to rise on today's opposition day motion. The NDP is asking the House to direct the work of the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs, of which I am a member, during its consideration of the fair elections act.

While I wholeheartedly support the need to consult with stakeholders and Canadians about the important issues raised in the fair elections act, I believe that it is the responsibility of our committee to decide how it will conduct itself and how it will structure its hearings. I am confident that the committee will ensure a thorough and comprehensive hearing of the fair elections act and will make every effort to hear all who are interested in this important matter.

The communications technology available makes it possible to hear from a wide range of individuals, wherever they may be. I will, therefore, be opposing the motion and encourage other members to do the same.

Let us talk a bit about the fair elections act. The act is a vital piece of legislation that proposes comprehensive changes to the Canada Elections Act. The fair elections act would ensure that everyday citizens are in charge of democracy by putting special interests on the sidelines and rule breakers out of business.