Debates of May 12th, 2015

Physical Obstruction—Speaker's Ruling

[Elizabeth May, Green, Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC]

Mr. Speaker, this opportunity to discuss the role of Parliament, parliamentary privilege, security and the role of visiting dignitaries needs to be examined at PROC, and we need to go back to first principles.

Parliament is supreme. Parliament is not the place of the head of state. Parliament is where government happens. Traditionally in this country, and I am old enough to remember, most heads of state used to be greeted at Rideau Hall. That was the convention and it did not interrupt parliamentary procedure.

We have, in recent years, become inconvenienced in Parliament by the arrival of visiting dignitaries with the automatic assumption that if a head of state is visiting from another country and the Prime Minister wishes to roll red carpets through the middle of this place, unfurl flags and hold a ceremony, parliamentary activities have to be secondary to that activity.

I suggest that activity contravenes our Constitution, and we need to pay attention to the supremacy of Parliament, the role of parliamentarians and our ability to do our work without being impeded. The supremacy of Parliament is a principle that matters. The Prime Minister reports to Parliament, not the other way around.

[Craig Scott, NDP, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

Mr. Speaker, these are very good points, and the member for Saanich—Gulf Islands has made them before in other debates on privilege. It is a serious point, the question of whether our head of state, the Governor General, should presumptively be the one at whose residence and workplace foreign dignitaries are received, with the exception being otherwise where planning can go on in a way that still allows for all of our activity to go on.

There is a constitutional issue, and there is a de facto constant infringement going on when the executive branch is using the parliamentary precinct as its way of dealing with the rest of the world through VIP showcasing. The Speaker said that these are great premises and we want to show them off to the world. We cannot disagree. However, the idea of using this as an automatic place for whenever the Prime Minister wants to put on a diplomatic show probably does need to be looked at to see whether this could be better done, and probably with less cost, at Rideau Hall.

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

Mr. Speaker, thank you for the ruling that you just made.

It is worrisome that other members are raising additional questions regarding the quick changes that were imposed by the government a few months ago to the structure that has always been in place on Parliament Hill.

This debate will allow us to talk a little more about an extremely troubling trend. We are seeing more and more opposition members rising in the House because they are being denied access to Parliament. As we have seen in the case of the member for Toronto—Danforth and the other cases that occurred just within the past few days, involving the member for London—Fanshawe and the member for Skeena—Bulkley Valley, the pattern is becoming increasingly clear.

The member for Ottawa—Vanier also just raised an important point about the equality of the two official languages as it pertains to access to Parliament Hill.

We are seeing these increased concerns raised by members of Parliament and the trend is very worrisome. More and more frequently we are seeing members of Parliament who are not able to access their workplace here on Parliament Hill.

As members of Parliament, we are called upon to do many things and to work very hard on behalf of our constituents. That means often coming into the House with a few minutes' notice to speak on important bills. Often the government does not provide us with the notice that it should, so we have to rapidly get to the House. We also have a government that will often hold surprise votes, particularly on closure and time allocation. We have seen 95 of them through the course of this Parliament. That is beyond, without any doubt, the worst history of any government in Canadian history. It has invoked closure or time allocation 95 times. These votes are often a surprise.

As members of Parliament, we need access to the House so that we can debate the issues, often at a moment's notice because the government does not want to provide that notice. Often at a moment's notice we come here to vote on issues such as time allocation.

The idea that somehow delays of a few minutes are inconsequential and should be dismissed has been the argument we have been hearing from the government side now for a couple of weeks. As these incidents multiply, there are more and more concerns about the ability to actually get into the House of Commons. I profoundly disagree with the idea that the government raises, that it is inconsequential for a member to miss votes or to not be able to take their place in debate,.

Mr. Speaker, why has there been this multiplication of blocked access to Parliament Hill? You know the reason as well as I do. We raised one of the concerns a few months ago when the government rammed through the House major security changes. It rammed them through with very little notice, no consultation with the Speaker, no consultation with opposition parties. It simply rammed through directly from the Prime Minister's Office this idea that they could change the scope of security on Parliament Hill.

I want to quote the member for Hull—Aylmer, our whip at that time, who raised these concerns when the government provoked that sudden debate to shake up the security system here on Parliament Hill. At that time she said that the motion before us will not achieve “better integration, better training, better equipment and more resources dedicated to our safety”, upon which all members of Parliament would agree. She said, “This motion is nothing more than the government's attempt to take away the historic responsibility that the Speaker's office has under the Constitution to protect parliamentarians from the unilateral intrusion of government authority.”

She said:

The fact that the government is using the power of its whip to try to take constitutional rights away from the Speaker and permanently hand control of security in this place over to its own security service is a direct attack on our traditions, our practices and our Constitution. This is an unprecedented attempt to control security in the only place where the government cannot control it: this Parliament. This once again demonstrates that this government, led by the Prime Minister, is obsessed with controlling everything.

What we have seen subsequent to that is the government overriding the Speaker's ability and the Speaker's prerogative. It is a multiplication of the government's attempt to usurp what had been Parliamentary traditions in place in this country for almost a century and a half. We saw that in the reaction both to the issues raised by the member for Toronto—Danforth and the members for Skeena—Bulkley Valley and London—Fanshawe. The government simply said that it has investigated and it dismisses it, when it is your prerogative, Mr. Speaker.

We had never heard those words from any government in Canadian history, but the current government is one that has attacked the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court and the Parliamentary Budget Officer, that has diminished the ability of the Auditor General to do the valuable work that he provides and that has attacked the Chief Electoral Officer. The government has absolutely no respect for institutions, and the Prime Minister seemingly wants to control more and more.

If they want the control, control comes with responsibility. On this side of the House, we have been fighting every step of the way. I profoundly believe that on October 19, we are going to see Canadians, as they did in Alberta, push back on this idea that one party can control everything. They will be electing a vastly different House of Commons on October 19. That vastly different House of Commons will have a majority of New Democratic Party members, and those members will choose a different path under the leadership of the Leader of the Opposition.

They have then taken this control. The PROC report, as my colleague for Toronto—Danforth mentioned so eloquently, actually provided guidelines for that control, and what was needed was better planning. What we have seen is worse planning, which is why the situation on access to Parliament Hill has deteriorated so markedly over the last few weeks. That is why increasingly members of Parliament do not have access to Parliament in an immediate and automatic way, which risks leading to missed votes. It certainly leads to the risk of not being here to speak in debate. However, the better planning has not happened.

Under the Prime Minister's direction, we have seen instead a lot of improvised diplomatic shows, as the member for Toronto—Danforth said so eloquently. The government does not seem to want to answer questions in question period. The Prime Minister does not seem to want to rise to answer questions in the House of Commons. In fact, members will recall that in May and June, 2014, the Prime Minister rose to answer questions in the House only five times in the final five weeks of Parliament. Only five times did the Prime Minister deign to actually respond to questions that were being asked in the House of Commons.

We are seeing the same pattern repeating. I do not recall the last time that the Prime Minister actually rose in the House to answer questions. I think it might have been a week and a half ago. I am not even talking about the quality of questions. I am talking about the fact that he is not rising to answer them at all. However, we are seeing lots of diplomatic shows arranged at the last minute, increasingly preventing our access to Parliament Hill.

This breach of privilege is quite clear, Mr. Speaker. I am glad that you have ruled in favour of the member for Toronto—Danforth and the member for Skeena—Bulkley Valley, with the participation of many other members. This trend has to stop. The government has to start respecting the traditions of the Speaker and it has to plan better, not worse. Hopefully, the debate that we are having today will lead to better planning on the part of the government so that it is not stopping opposition members.

The officers involved are showing good faith and professionalism, but they are under the direction of a new security apparatus that the government pushed through the House and put into place. The government has the responsibility for better planning to avoid these incidents in the future.

[Anne-Marie Day, NDP, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to raise a few points.

First, I would like to talk about security when there is an emergency situation. For example, when Mr. Bibeau attacked Parliament, the entire security system deployed. Under such circumstances, even members lose their rights and that is fairly normal.

However, I would also like to mention the questionable 74 seconds that the Speaker seems to have accepted. That is completely unacceptable, since before that, a shuttle bus could not get through when the new security barriers, which retract into the ground, failed because they are already rusty and corroded from the salt even though they are new.

What does my colleague think about that? Would the member like to add that to the requests that other members are making?

This system jammed. The bus had to do the whole tour and come back to try to enter. The RCMP does not have a checkpoint when we come by shuttle bus to get to the East Block. We have the right to go straight through when the barriers go down and there was therefore no reason for the RCMP to stop the shuttle bus from entering at that time.

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank my colleague for her question.

These are all examples of measures that previously were the responsibility of the Speaker's office. In my opinion, everyone had confidence in the structure that was in place. Improvements to training and coordination were needed, as we have always said.

However, the government did not consult us. It could have said to the opposition that this issue requires discussion by all MPs in order to find common ground in the good old Canadian tradition, and to have a consensus on improving the security system and preventing the problems that the member mentioned. Instead, the government is proposing absolutely nothing, neither solutions nor discussions.

The Prime Minister's Office imposed this new system without planning. Even though all police officers are acting in good faith, they have put in place a system that is making access more and more difficult. Naturally, that is a problem.

What we always say to the government is that instead of being partisan, it could sit down with opposition members to reach a consensus and improve security without preventing the public and members from having access to Parliament Hill.

It is obvious that a more practical and understanding government would have a discussion with opposition members. That was not done in this case and we can see the results.

[Pierre-Luc Dusseault, NDP, Sherbrooke, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague for his speech on this very worrisome and increasingly common problem. It is something we hear about more and more.

I would like some clarifications about the discussions that members of the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs will have if we adopt the motion we are talking about today, regarding the problem underlying these two breaches of privilege with respect to the member for Toronto—Danforth and the member for Skeena—Bulkley Valley.

The underlying problem is that the government is taking control of the parliamentary precinct, and this will only get worse in the coming months with the implementation of new security measures on Parliament Hill.

Could my colleague talk about the risks associated with this? Is it important for the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs to examine the fact that the executive is taking control and is trying to control everything that goes on, instead of Parliament itself having sovereign control over Parliament Hill and the parliamentary precinct as well as over the movement of members of Parliament within the precinct?

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the comments from the member for Sherbrooke, who chairs one of the most prestigious committees on Parliament Hill.

This member has a good understanding and quickly learned the rules and procedures of the House of Commons, as well as the importance of a dialogue among all the parties in the House. However, there was never any dialogue because the government took control. A motion was imposed on the House and now we can see the outcome: there is less access and the planning is worse than before.

Things obviously need to change, and we hope that the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs will look at this issue and give the government some very clear direction.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

Mr. Speaker, my comments will be somewhat brief. I have the good fortune of being the Liberal Party's representative on the procedures and House affairs committee and have had the opportunity to deal with this. It is an issue that has come before PROC relatively recently. We have had the Commissioner of the RCMP and many different security personnel come, including the former sergeant-at-arms, Kevin Vickers. Listening to what was said, both publicly and in camera, members will find that members of Parliament of all political stripes treat the issue of privilege and access to the parliamentary precinct in a very serious fashion.

The House of Commons deals with the passage of laws, the making of budgets, and different programs. There are very important debates that take place in this House and obviously many important votes. A member having a sense that he or she has access at any time is of critical importance. No one wants to see delays that would prevent members from getting into the chamber in a timely fashion.

In listening to the discussions at PROC in dealing with this, I was of the opinion that there was a great deal of general good will to try to improve the system.

When this particular issue of privilege was raised, I stated that if we are going to err, it is better to err on the side of having to review this once again as opposed to not taking this issue seriously. That is the reason I am quite comfortable and pleased with the Speaker's ruling that this matter be debated once again and voted on and then, hopefully, go to the procedures and House affairs committee.

My concern is that if it goes to the procedures and House affairs committee, we will get different presenters to come before the committee and provide input as to where we go from here, and I am not convinced that this the best course of action. We could be looking at ways we can actually develop a process with which all members are comfortable.

I am not convinced that people are comfortable with the process. If members of Parliament are not comfortable with the process, I suspect that there is a greater likelihood that we will have points of privilege in the future. We need to establish that process or protocol so that all members feel comfortable that they do indeed have access.

There needs to be coordination at the security level. We recognize the importance of security, for obvious reasons, here on the Hill and in the parliamentary precinct. However, there has to be a balance, recognizing that it is of utmost importance that members of Parliament have unfettered access to attend the House of Commons in a timely fashion. It goes beyond just the floor; it also includes committee responsibilities and so on.

I understand that there are issues that could be discussed at PROC with the idea of seeing if we can come up with a unanimous report on how to put this issue to rest.

I recognize that there are major renovations that have been taking place over the last number of years. Some of those renovations have led to the problems we have had. However, there are going to be a great many more renovations in the future, which may impact state visits and what takes place here on the Hill. My colleague from Ottawa has raised issues as well.

I suspect that there could be a great deal of value in caucuses, along with independents, having an opportunity to convey their concerns. Perhaps members who have an interest in the issue may be invited to participate at the PROC meeting.

When we look at what takes place inside the House, including the making of laws, the passing of budgets, and the many different votes that take place, we recognize how important it is that members of Parliament have the right to have access. Therefore, it is very important that we do what we can to protect that right.

On a side point, I would suggest that this is not a reflection whatsoever of the fantastic work all the different security forces do to provide a safe environment here on the Hill. They are outstanding in what they do for us, but we need to take a better look and come up with a process we are all comfortable with.

At the end of the day, we should feel comfortable that if there is a need to get into the chamber, MPs will be afforded the opportunity to get here as quickly and directly as possible for the many different meetings, whether they are in MPs' offices, the Confederation Building, the Valour Building, or the justice buildings. MPs need to feel comfortable knowing that they can get here in a timely fashion without being stopped and detained, which could ultimately lead to an MP missing a vote or an opportunity to contribute to a debate.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Mr. Speaker, we have a rule by tradition in this House, because this is the House of Commons. It is the house of the common people, with the right of the people of Canada to have their representatives come and represent them. It is why we have the Sergeant-at-Arms and the door closed. It is to protect our right to do our democratic duties.

However, there have been two dramatic changes we have seen under the current Conservative government. First of all, it is taking the control of the House of Commons outside of the House of Commons and is turning it over to the RCMP. This is not a slur against the work of the RCMP, but we are now under a different security service, and the supremacy of Parliament has been changed.

The other element I would like to ask my hon. colleague about is the fact that the current Prime Minister continually uses Parliament now as a photographic backdrop for his events, where this has not been the tradition.

In the case of my colleague for Toronto—Danforth, he was allegedly told by a police officer that there may be a vote but he was not allowed in the House of Commons because it was for dignitaries. That is something I am deeply concerned about. Parliament is supposed to be for the work of parliamentarians. That parliamentarians are not allowed to access the Hill because it is for dignitaries and important people for a photo-op is deeply disturbing.

I can see my colleagues on the other side who ridicule and shoot their mouths off, because they show no respect for Parliament, but I am here to represent the rights of parliamentarians to speak in the House.

I would like to ask my hon. colleague what he thinks about the issue of our being told, as parliamentarians, that when a vote is happening or our work is under way that we can be held up because Parliament, our building, the House of Commons, is being used by the Prime Minister for photo-ops and various photo issues with whoever is coming at a given time. I find that an affront, and it is a threat to what we have established through hundreds and hundreds of years of parliamentary tradition. No matter what—

[The Deputy Speaker, NDP, Joe Comartin]

Order, please. The member has far exceeded his time for a question.

The hon. member for Winnipeg North.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

Mr. Speaker, with regard to the security changes that we have witnessed over the last number of months, one thing I do know is I am very opinionated member of Parliament, which is a fair comment that members may agree with, but the other thing is that I am not a security expert. I depend on security experts and individuals who have a far better understanding of how we can protect the public and elected officials in Parliament from potential threats. Those decisions are best made by security personnel.

There are institutions such as the Board of Internal Economy and others that ultimately provide guidance, in co-operation, I suspect, with the Speaker's office, and I have faith in that system.

I am very encouraged to see security on the floor of the House. From what I have witnessed, the former security guards are now on the floor of the House of Commons doing the security checks and so forth, which is great. However, that is a little off topic.

My primary concern with respect to state visits is ensuring they do not impinge in any way or fashion on a member's ability to fulfill his or her roles and responsibilities in the House, which includes everything from votes to debates on laws and budgets, or to have access to committees or the House of Commons if they want to listen to what is taking place and potentially make an intervention of some fashion.

Those concerns really need to be taken into consideration when we talk about state visits.

[Elizabeth May, Green, Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I want to reiterate something that was just mentioned by the member for Burnaby—New Westminster and ask my friend from Winnipeg North about this.

There have been dramatic changes in the security here that I believe do infringe on fundamental constitutional principles of the supremacy of Parliament, the role of the executive and the differences in how parliamentary security should be handled. There was a snap motion on Friday, February 6. I was fortunate to be able to change my plans and be here for the whole debate. We did not hear witnesses or experts before it was pushed through the House of Commons to would change our security measures to a different parliamentary precinct approach, which puts the RCMP in charge.

Again, this is no disrespect to the RCMP, but I am very concerned about the primacy and supremacy of Parliament and the constitutional role of the House of Commons security, not to mention the fact that the security officers were the ones who most bravely and unarmed did the best job protecting us on October 22. Regardless of what may have been the executive's intention, many of those House of Commons security guards now feel demoted.

Now we have Bill C-59, bringing with it Division 10 of part 3, pages 73 to 97, which is all about creating a parliamentary protective service in an omnibus fashion. Again, we will not have enough time to study it and it requires the director of parliamentary protective service to be a current standing member of the RCMP always by law.

Does my friend from Winnipeg North think we are rushing into these changes without adequate study or review and could this motion on privilege give PROC a better chance to dig into these issues?

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

Mr. Speaker, first, I will address the issue of Bill C-59. Over the last number of years, since the majority Conservative government, we have seen a different attitude toward the way legislation is passed. The best example of that would be the forced time allocation that is put on the House for virtually all legislation, which prevents the type of dialogue that is important between members of Parliament.

The leader of the Green Party asked if we would have adequate debate on Bill C-59, which is a very important issue. I suspect the type of debate we will likely have on the bill will be very similar to the type of debate we have had on a number of pieces of legislation. However, in regard to that specific aspect of the legislation, it behooves us to take into consideration what we are told by the security experts, the people who truly understand the potential of terrorism.

We need to recognize that the Parliament building is a very high target area. Given the symbolism and national importance of the precinct, we need to be very careful in dealing with the issue of security. That is why I have personally entrusted the security professionals to provide us the best advice. At the same time, I am a parliamentarian first and foremost. I appreciate the importance of the privileges we have here. I will not support things that will take that away.

Finally, on the first part of her question, I believe some discussion took place prior to the Friday to which she referred. I do not know to what degree. Perhaps she was not incorporated into that dialogue, but there was definitely a sense of what was taking place among the three major political parties. I do not know the details in terms of the independents.

[Gerald Keddy, Conservative, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Agriculture]

Mr. Speaker, I want to pick up on a few of the comments I have heard. The first comment I heard, and quite frankly disagree with, was that somehow instead of visiting dignitaries coming to the House of Commons they should go to Rideau Hall and meet with the Governor General. Those comments came from a party that does not believe in the Governor General or the monarchy. I have my own particular opinion on that item, but I would like to hear the hon. member reply to that.

The other issue is that very real question about security and the rights and privileges of members of Parliament and the Senate, and the responsibility of security to try to balance that. I expect there will be some slippage and some mistakes made along the way, but that is why we as parliamentarians need to involve ourselves in this ongoing process, because it is a new world we live in since October.

We have to find the proper balance. However, to achieve that proper balance, it is also incumbent upon members of Parliament and Senators to respect the security officials here who may not know each of us by name, or may not remember our faces. We need to carry either our pin or an ID. I would like to hear his opinion on that.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

First, Mr. Speaker, on the issue of the state visits, it was wonderful, for example, when the President of France and the President of Ukraine addressed the House of Commons. It was a privilege. It makes us reflect on former Prime Minister Churchill. There is an opportunity for all members of Parliament and the public to benefit in certain situations. I would have loved to have seen President Aquino from the Philippines address members of the House. Those are wonderful, golden opportunities to bridge relationships between countries.

However, the issue of state visits needs to be looked at by the PROC committee, and how that could potentially interfere with the primary role that all of us have as members of Parliament. I believe there is merit for that issue.

The so-called red carpet treatment for a president or someone of similar stature who addresses the House has great value to it. However, we do have Rideau Hall. The Governor General does play a very important role in the makeup of state visits.

I think it goes without saying that there is a responsibility for members, but there is also responsibility for the security personnel to know who are the members of Parliament. On occasion I was asked if I have I.D. I had no problem in showing it. However, the issue is if I did not have I.D., I would like to think I still would have been given access. To this date, I believe I would have, but I am not 100% certain of it. That no doubt causes some concern, however. This is one reason why our security personnel have a booklet that lists all the MPs.

It might cause a 60 second delay, potentially, if security has to match a face. Is it reasonable for us to expect that all security forces would recognize what will be 338 members of Parliament? I do not think so. It is definitely something about which we could talk.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to join this debate. I do not think I will be using the full 20 minutes that is available, but I did want to participate in what I think is an important debate about the future of this place.

I will not go into the detail of the specifics of the matter that brought the ruling to the House, because it was obviously found to be sufficient to raise the question of privilege, but it is a good occasion for the committee to have a look at some of the questions that have arisen, some of them, frankly, without much contemplation, without much debate, without much public discussion in terms of the changes that may be taking place in the security arrangements for the House of Commons and the parliamentary precinct as a whole.

Obviously there are some lessons to be learned from what happened last October. I am afraid we have not even seen any reports as to what exactly happened last October. There is a bit of a gap here. Decisions seem to have been made about what we should do next without having a report on exactly what went wrong last October. It obviously was a significant shock to us all to have to encounter this, obviously without proper security in place because if there had been proper security in place, that individual would not have got inside this building.

Clearly mistakes were made, but nobody seems to be in a position to tell the public exactly what happened and make a report that we could have a look at. Without that, it is very difficult to draw conclusions about what should happen, but one thing that needs to be looked at, and I am hoping this is an opportunity for the committee to look at it, is this whole question of who is in charge, ultimately, of the parliamentary precinct.

Under our system, and it was always this way, it was supposed to be the Speaker. The Speaker is the guardian of the rights and privileges of members of Parliament, and they obviously include the personal security of members and staff of the parliamentary precinct. It disturbs me to hear, even in dealing with a debate about this matter, that we have the government House leader giving information received from the Minister of Public Safety who receives information from someone from the RCMP who says they reviewed security tapes.

Where is the Speaker in all of this? Where is the role of the Speaker in terms of being in charge of the parliamentary precinct, as opposed to the government? We live in a parliamentary democracy and there is an executive and the houses of Parliament, but I think we have a problem if there is an overlap, if there is an uncertainty of who is reporting to whom.

Ultimately, I hope the committee looks into this, and it may require more than just a simple looking at it, and perhaps the committee would have some recommendations that there be further work done on this, that there be further study, as someone pointed out earlier, looking at first principles as to how a parliamentary democracy protects itself and how it operates within the parliamentary precinct, because it is not simply a matter of getting to the House.

People were talking about getting to this House for a vote, but it is not simply a matter of that. The parliamentary precinct includes the offices of members of Parliament. Some are in this building and some are somewhere else. Mine happens to be in this building, so if I am denied access to this building temporarily or for an event, then I am denied the ability to go to my office to use the tools of the office to perform my duties as a member of Parliament.

The parliamentary precinct exists in other parts of the Hill, but they are all under the ultimate control of the Speaker. The Sergeant-at-Arms reports to the Speaker. So if we have an external police force, which is the national police force, playing a role on security other than advisory, then the question becomes to whom does it report. This committee really should be looking at that.

It is one thing to say that the RCMP can be in charge. I was not here for that debate, and frankly, I do not agree with it. I think it is something that should be through the Speaker. If the expertise resides in the RCMP, then obviously there is a case for secondment to the parliamentary security service, either for advice or command and control functions in particular circumstances or emergencies or in general to deal with emergencies.

However, in terms of who has the expertise, the tradition, the understanding, the institutional memory, and the knowledge, that resides in the Speaker's office, as does the role of the keeping the primacy of Parliament in the place that it should be under our Constitution. If we start with the principle that the parliamentary precinct should be under the control of the Speaker on behalf of all members of Parliament, then the question of what the buildings are used for can be answered by the Speaker with whatever advice he or she would get from Parliament itself.

We have heard about the heads of state. I think it is a perfect part of this tradition, which we have here, that leaders of other governments address the House, including heads of state, such as the President of the United States, who has addressed the House. That person is both the head of state and the head of government. That is not our tradition. The Governor General is the head of state, symbolically, on behalf of Her Majesty the Queen, and Her Majesty the Queen is the head of state. Rideau Hall is the residence of the head of state of Canada. When foreign dignitaries come to pay their respects on a visit to Canada, that has traditionally been the place where they go.

If they are speaking to Parliament, that is a different matter, but we see the parliamentary buildings being used as a backdrop for a press conference, if we want to call it that, a photo op, or a welcoming ceremony for a foreign head of state who is not speaking to Parliament. Parliament has no role whatsoever. Parliament is not involved in it. It is basically being used as a venue for a public meeting and public statements by a foreign dignitary, whether it be a head of state, as in the case of the President of the Philippines, or a prime minister coming here.

If the House is not in session, there are a lot fewer problems, because we do not have the House of Commons or the Senate in session. However, these are questions that really are a part of what is going on here.

It has been questioned whether or not the people who are engaged in security know who the members of Parliament are. The question becomes who they are here to protect. They are here to protect the members of Parliament, the senators, and the staff who work here. It seems to me that there is an obligation that the people who are doing the protecting should have some knowledge of who they are protecting.

I was here that day, walking up to the Parliament building to my office, which happens to be in this building. There was nobody on the roads of Parliament. I was crossing from one part of the road to the other, and I was ordered to get off of the road. I looked around, and I did not see any cars, but I was told to get off of the road. Why would I get off of the road? I was crossing the road to get to my office. Again, there was no distinction being made as to who is who, who is what, who is coming, who is a tourist, who is a visitor, who is here on business, and who is wandering around. That seems to be wrong. I am not blaming any individual who may have been giving instructions, if we want to call them that. They sounded like orders to me. I am not blaming any individual for doing that, but it is clear that we have a systemic problem here if we have not figured that out.

The people who are here are doing the best they can, but they need to have proper rules, proper protocols, and proper understanding of their role, the role of members of Parliament, and how this all fits together. This is not simply a crowd control issue. It is an issue of democracy and how we have a democracy when members of Parliament and their staff who are going about their business, providing the mechanism of democracy in this country, are not able to do that.

On the one hand, the government plays a role in the House, but when the Prime Minister is meeting foreign heads of state, that is not a parliamentary function, unless they are being brought into Parliament, as we had when President Poroshenko came here to Parliament. He was greeted at a reception for members and other guests, and he presented a speech in Parliament. That is a parliamentary occasion, and it is one that we welcome and appreciate. We understand the value of it as part of the traditions of the House. I think the earliest one, or the earliest one most people remember or remember hearing about, is the visit of Winston Churchill during the Second World War.

I think that is something we recognize as part of the traditions of this House and part of the important role that this House plays in the life of the nation and our relationships with other countries. That, obviously, has to continue.

However, to get back to the question before us, whether this matter should go to the committee—that is the motion before us, should the matter go to the committee for discussion, for recommendations, for debate, for recognizing the depth of the issue and coming up with some solutions—I think that is the proper place for it. We would all benefit from an in-depth look at these questions, perhaps, with a calling of experts, getting people to come before the committee to talk about these traditions, to talk about how this could be done, and to perhaps even raise questions as to whether, or how, one could still have a system with the Speakers of the House of Commons and the Senate in charge.

That has to be the top of the pyramid, because the Speakers of the House of Commons and the Senate actually do act on behalf of all of us as parliamentarians in maintaining those traditions and ensuring that the democratic traditions prevail. We saw that in the last Parliament when Speaker Milliken made a ruling that, in fact, the Parliament was supreme over the executive, in terms of getting information. We were talking about the Afghan detainee documents and, Mr. Speaker, you yourself were part of that debate and discussion. It is one of the most important and significant rulings in any parliamentary democracy in the commonwealth—the kind of democracy we have—because it said that, ultimately, it is the House of Commons that decides what information of the government, of the state, it is entitled to.

That is a significant ruling, indeed, but it also underscores the importance of this institution being in charge of its own affairs—and the security of its members and the operations of the parliamentary precinct, are part of that.

We have to find a way to ensure that whomever is in charge of the security services of the houses of Parliament actually answers to the Speaker, not to a minister of the Crown. This is what we have now. The RCMP, God bless them, are the national police force and they have an important function to play, but to whom do they report? They do not report to Parliament. The head of the RCMP is not an officer of Parliament. There is no parliamentary oversight of the RCMP. It reports to theMinister of Public Safety, who reports to the Prime Minister. That is not the way a House of Parliament is supposed to operate. We have 1,000 years or more of tradition behind getting to the point where we are now. We should not be taking steps backwards. If we have a problem that needs to be solved, we should solve it consistent with our Constitution and our constitutional traditions.

This is an extremely important question. It is not simply whether somebody can get here 50 seconds or 30 seconds or a minute and a half late, potentially missing a vote in the House. That is just the context for bringing this forward. The reality is that this is a most significant question that requires a thoughtful, thorough, and comprehensive study and, hopefully, a report back to this House that would solve some of the questions we have been discussing here and that have been put forth.

That is really the point I rose to make. I want to make that point because I think it is of very high importance. I would be happy to respond to any questions or comments my colleagues have. I do not think this is a partisan issue. I think this is an important constitutional issue about the future of parliamentary democracy in Canada.

[Tyrone Benskin, NDP, Jeanne-Le Ber, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I listened to my colleague's comments very carefully and with great interest. One of the things that struck me when I first entered this precinct was how swiftly the House of Commons guards knew who we were. We walked in the door, and they greeted us with “thank you” or “good morning”, and I was impressed with that. It created a sense of safety, their knowing who I was and my learning who they were.

It strikes me as problematic when we rush into or are pushed into a situation where we have people who are there to look out for our welfare, and I thank them for that, but do not know who we are. It seems to me that the key to any successful security issue is everyone knowing who the players are and what their roles are. It is something that is sorely lacking in this situation because of how quickly, and without much forethought, we were pushed into this situation. I wonder if my colleague would like to comment on that.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague for bringing that up.

I was first elected in July 1987, and I remember distinctly coming to this House, as the House was in session during the summer, after whatever period we had to wait before being officially declared elected. I came here for a visit to get orientation. I came up to the front doors of the Peace Tower and walked up the steps inside to the counter expecting to ask directions to where I had to go on the sixth floor somewhere. I came up to the counter, and the constable behind the counter said, “Good morning, Mr. Harris”. I know I am using my name, but that is what he said. I was shocked. I asked him how he knew who I was. His response was, “That is our job, sir”. That was my first encounter coming to this building as a member of Parliament in 1987.

As you pointed out, that was something that made me feel that these were the people who were here to know who we were. Their role as constables and security guards, as you pointed out, was to give us a sense of security.

[The Deputy Speaker, NDP, Joe Comartin]

I would point out for the member for St. John's East that his comments are to come to me, and it is in fact improper to use his own name.

Questions and comments, the hon. member for Winnipeg North.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

Mr. Speaker, is it the member's expectation that to provide security the security officers, whether it is within the Parliament Buildings or on the grounds of the Parliament Buildings, should know 338 members of Parliament, which will be the number come fall?

The member also made reference to staff. It goes beyond members of Parliament, even though the issue of privilege to the chamber is limited to MPs, from what I understand. I could be wrong about that, and the member can correct me. Does the member believe that every security officer in the precinct should be able to have name-face recognition of all members of Parliament? How important is that to him?

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Mr. Speaker, first I would say to the hon. member that when this incident I referred to took place in 1987, there were 295 members of Parliament. There will be 338 members come the fall. I do not know if the member speaks to the pages, but they seem to know everyone by name. That is part of their job. They learn that in the orientation session one or two weeks before they start. The constables representing the House know who everyone is. The question is whether it is necessary for security. I do not know.

The pins are security pins. They have numbers on the back. I have only once had someone say, when I showed my pin, that he needed to see my ID, even though that person should have had access to a book with all the names in it. The person apologized and said he was new here and had come just the previous week.

That is one of the issues we have with the rotation in and out for a one-week period or a two-week period of various security officials on the Hill. That is a problem. If they are only here for one or two weeks, it is a problem. They need to know this place and who they are here to secure.

That is a security question. However, the answer is that the more they know, the better job they can do and the more secure the place they are guarding is, particularly if they are trying to balance access to the House and access by the public as well.

[Marc-André Morin, NDP, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I am sure that the guards stationed up there in the gallery can recognize anyone in the House. That is how safe I feel. If chaos were to break out, I am sure that they would recognize me and any of my colleagues no matter the circumstances.

However, there is more to it than that. The new mentality fostered by the Conservatives challenges the concept of separation of powers.

I would like my colleague to tell us a bit about that.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member hit on an essential point. The separation of powers is extremely important in our Constitution, and frankly, to our freedom. Our freedom as a nation depends on the separation of powers between the executive branch and the parliamentary branch.

We do not have that as stringently as they do, for example, in a republican system like in United States, where they have the executive in the White House, with the cabinet chosen by him and ratified by parliament, and then they have Congress and the Supreme Court. There is a structural separation of powers. We have a different system, in some ways better, because members of the executive sit over here in the front row or second row, or wherever, on the other side, and they are responsible and accountable to Parliament directly.

We have a different system, but because there is this intimacy, so to speak, between the executive and the legislative branch, it is all the more important to make sure that there are bright black lines between the executive authority and the House of Commons, or the legislative branch. We should, in this case, examine that to see where those bright black lines need to be.

[Anne-Marie Day, NDP, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to talk about a number of things.

My office is on the ninth floor of the Confederation Building. It is the last one, right at the end. When there is a 15-minute bell and I make my way up the road, it is very important that I not be delayed by even a fraction of a second by bollards that are not operating properly. That would prevent me from arriving in time for the vote. We have a majority government now, but in the past, with minority governments in power, such situations could cause major problems.

I feel that this is about privilege and rights. When I arrived here in 2011, the pages who welcomed me at the main entrance greeted me by name. They had not been here long, but they knew our names. I think that the security guards who have been here longer should know our names.

Will the member support us and help us ensure that our access to the Hill remains a basic privilege for all MPs?

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Mr. Speaker, to answer the last question first, clearly that is what New Democrats want the committee to look at. What are the first principles on access to the precinct, whether it be to the House for a vote, as was pointed out, or to one's office, whether it be in the Confederation Building or here? These are fundamental to the operation of our legislative system.

There is even the question of buses. If we cut down the number of buses, it is hard to get from one place to another in the middle of winter, because sleet, a storm, or whatever is going on. That impedes access too. Maybe the rules need to be adjusted to ensure that members are able to come for a vote.

Yes, the fundamental question has to be there. This is an extremely important question of privilege and is a real opportunity and a timely opportunity for Parliament to engage with this question. New Democrats look to the committee to provide some leadership and hear from anyone in Parliament who wants to make representations as well as experts and those who know the traditions of Parliament.