Debates of May 26th, 2015

Opposition Motion—Federal Science Research

[Colin Carrie, Conservative, Oshawa, ON]

Mr. Speaker, of course, I do not agree with the premise of that question. As I said in my speech, we are working internationally through our open government initiatives through the G8, so it will establish open data principles for all member countries. The premise of the member's entire question is absolutely wrong.

We are making sure that Canadians have the full advantages of the research that is done through the Government of Canada, and the facts speak for themselves. The only parties here that do not want these scientific explanations to get out are the opposition parties. For example, on our Keystone pipelines, we all know that from an environmental standpoint this is the best way to transport these products. It is shameful that a member from that province would actually be against getting that science out.

The facts are quite simple. Canada is ranked number one in the G7 for our support for scientific research and development in our colleges, universities, and other research institutions. Our federal departments and agencies produce more than 4,000 science publications every single year. Natural Resources Canada scientists fielded more than 470 media interviews last year. Our scientists publish on average annually more than 500 peer-reviewed articles in scientific journals. We are very proud of our scientists on this side of the House, and the opposition parties should get on board with that.

[Diane Ablonczy, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I find it ironic that the Liberals are putting this motion forward, because I have been in the House for two decades and I remember that, when the Liberals were in government, there were a number of articles accusing the Liberal government of muzzling scientists. I am sure my friend opposite will remember some of those articles, as they are easily found on Google. I urge people to look them up.

There always seems to be this debate about the freedom of government-employed, publicly funded scientists. My friend who just spoke pointed out that government scientists are encouraged to publish their findings and publish their research.

I am curious about exactly where this whole idea of muzzling comes from, because from what I heard my friend say, there is no muzzling at all. I would like to hear his comments on that.

[Colin Carrie, Conservative, Oshawa, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I want to thank my colleague for her excellent question and her service in the House. She is absolutely correct. If we look back historically, we see that the Liberal Party's record on this is dismal. The only reason for putting this motion forward, sadly, is to politicize the science and scientists who work for the Canadian government and the Canadian people.

The reality is that, since 2006, the government has invested more than $5 billion into scientific research, which is a record amount for any Canadian government. The sad part about it is that the opposition actually voted against that. When we look at what opposition members state and at their actions, we see they are totally different.

In our ministry, for example, Environment Canada scientists are consistently recognized by world authorities for their expertise and excellence in the field of environmental research. Our meteorologists provide accurate forecasts and warnings for severe weather 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, with the use of complex weather models.

One thing everyone in the House should be proud of is that in a 2014 report by Thomson Reuters, which I mentioned in my speech, three Environment Canada scientists were listed as being among the world's most influential scientific minds. These are just some of the many examples that show how Environment Canada scientists are leading the pack and how we are investing in this very important research for the benefit of all Canadians, but also for people around the entire planet.

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I want to start by reading the motion we are debating today. I want to give anyone who may not have been following this debate from the beginning an idea of the resolution members will be voting on this evening.

That, in the opinion of the House: (a) the government has constrained the ability of federal scientists to share their research and to collaborate with their peers; (b) federal scientists have been muzzled and prevented from speaking to the media about their work; (c) research is paid for by taxpayers and must be done in the public interest in order to protect the environment and the health and safety of Canadians; and, therefore, (d) the government should immediately rescind all rules and regulations that muzzle government scientists, consolidate government-funded or -created science so that it is easily available to the public at large through a central portal, create a Chief Science Officer whose mandate would include ensuring that government science is freely available to those who are paying for it, namely, the public, and allow scientists to be able to speak freely on their work with limited and publicly stated exceptions.

I have no difficulty believing that scientists who work for the Government of Canada should be free to talk about their research. They do not necessarily need to discuss the policies that the Government of Canada and Parliament must set, because that is up to Parliament and the government. However, the role of scientists is to share the information they glean from their research, because those are facts. The fact that the government has prohibited scientists from talking to journalists is very perplexing. It shows that the government does not trust them and does not want Canadians to know science, the truth and the facts. Is it because the government does not trust them? I think that might be one of the key factors in the Conservative government's decision to prevent scientists from talking to journalists.

I have another example. The government no longer allows public servants to talk to MPs. That is inconceivable to me, but that is how things stand.

I do not think it is right to prevent scientists from sharing the research they are paid to do with journalists and Canadians. That is a key part of the resolution before us, and it is certainly one of the reasons why I will support the motion.

I think this is the result of government decisions that are based more on ideology than on facts.

Let me give another example. We all remember one of the first decisions this government made when the Conservatives won a majority: it abolished the long form census. Nearly all Canadians opposed that decision. All universities and most of the provinces—eight out of 10 provinces—opposed that decision. The private sector opposed it. The municipalities were virtually unanimous in their opposition to it. Everyone opposed the notion of not having a mandatory long form census because it was a key source of information. It was replaced by a voluntary questionnaire.

Now we are in the very situation that everyone predicted: the statistics provided by Statistics Canada are no longer as useful as they once were. Who says so? It is the private sector, which has found that the information currently being provided by Statistics Canada is not as good.

There are decisions that the private sector, universities and municipalities need to make that are no longer based on solid information. That is a serious problem. In fact, we have promised that if we form the next government, we will bring back the mandatory long form census as soon as possible, as soon as we take office. We need to return to decision-making policies based on scientific fact, not on ideology.

There is another point I want to make.

I mentioned a while ago that it was not only scientists who were muzzled in not being allowed to speak with journalists, but all public servants had been, in a way, as well. I will give an example. They cannot speak to members of Parliament now.

A few years ago, I had a call from one of the local associations in the riding I represent, the Vanier Business Improvement Area, the Vanier BIA. It wanted some basic information on the grants in lieu of taxes program. As we all know, the Crown is not obliged to pay property taxes, but there are grants made in lieu of taxes. We created that program back in the 1990s.

I called the director general in Public Works and Government Services responsible for the program and left a message. I received a call back a few minutes later from the minister's office telling me that if I wanted to get information, I had to go through the minister. I said that was fine and asked to set up a briefing, which we did. I think it took three weeks. The gentleman I had called came with two of his associates, there were three people from the Vanier BIA, myself and two ministerial assistants from the minister's office. We had a half-hour exchange of information, all of it perfectly legitimate, nothing confidential, no information that could not be divulged.

At the end of the meeting, the gentleman I had called and left a message with, and who did not call me back because he was not allowed to, gave his business card to the people from the Vanier BIA and told them that if they needed more information, to please call him or send him an email. At that point, I asked if he was telling me that the person who was elected to represent them and help them could not call him and talk to him, and he confirmed that I could not. He had been instructed, as had all public servants, by the minister and the government to not to talk to MPs. I find that unconscionable.

This means the government does not trust professional public servants to only divulge information they are allowed to by law. This has happened to me a number of times since, which I find unconscionable and absolutely unnecessary. We do have very professional public servants who do respect the law, who do not divulge information they are not allowed to. Yet they now have been told they cannot talk to MPs, just as scientists have been told they cannot talk to journalists. That is not the way to govern and we need to do away with such directions.

Another thing that concerns me greatly is the direction the government is taking with regard to research. It is focusing primarily on applied research and not on basic research. I am extremely concerned about that. We noticed in the past two budgets that the new guidelines for research groups specify that they are to associate with the private sector only. I think we are going in the wrong direction.

I have no problem with applied science applying, as it were, knowledge in the private sector in order to create wealth and employment. There is no real problem there. However, there has to be a balance. That is the problem. We are losing that balance. The National Research Council of Canada headquarters, located in the riding I have the privilege of representing, is leaning far too much, in my opinion, toward applied research instead of basic research. There is no doubt that applied research leads to gains. However, abandoning basic research is going to cost us dearly in the long term when it comes to quality of life, the economy, and so forth.

Here is an example.

A couple of years ago, I organized a debate with Dr. Arthur Carty. Before I get into that, let me explain who this gentleman is. He currently manages the Waterloo Institute for Nanotechnology at the University of Waterloo, but for 10 years he was the head of the National Research Council, from 1994 to 2004. He did a wonderful job there. He then was hired to be the first science adviser to the prime minister, and he did a great job there, too. When the Conservatives took over, they transferred him away from the position of prime minister's adviser and over to industry, and a year or so later, they cancelled that job. They did not do in a very elegant manner, unfortunately.

When I organized this debate a couple of years ago, Dr, Carty gave me some rather interesting statistics that should be of some preoccupation. For instance, what he calls the GERD/GDP ratio, or the gross expenditure on R and D over the GDP ratio, had dropped from the 16th position in the OECD in 2006 to the 23rd position in 2011. Let us compare the percentage of gross expenditure on R and D over the GDP in 2011. In Israel, it was 4.4%. In Finland, it was 3.8%. In South Korea, it was 3.7%. In Sweden, it was 3.4%. In Japan, it was 3.3%. In Denmark, it was 3.1%. In Canada, it was 1.7%. If we do not do better than that, we are headed for some serious trouble.

When we formed a government in the mid-1990s, Canada was experiencing a brain drain. We had some serious problems. After the elimination of the $39 billion deficit that we inherited from the Mulroney government, one of the first things we headed toward was improving our facilities in research. We created the Canada Foundation for Innovation, which members may recall. I think that we put in upwards of about $10 million. We redid all of the labs in all of the hospitals and universities in our country. We gradually did other initiatives through the AUCC, the Association of Universities and Colleges of Canada, creating scholarships, improving the NCERT, and changing and improving the medical research capacity in humanities research.

We eventually reversed the brain drain and we tremendously improved our standing in science and research. However, now we are heading the other way. That is a scary matter. To compound that, we are now telling our scientists that they cannot talk to journalists and share their information. I do not understand that.

Since coming to power, the Conservatives have closed 20 or so libraries in most departments, which is rather worrisome. It was disastrous at Fisheries and Oceans Canada, where they closed seven out of nine, if I am not mistaken. We were told that all the documents would be digitized or sent to Library and Archives Canada, but LAC did not take in a single one.

Evidence has been therefore destroyed and lost, reinforcing the fact that the government prefers to base its work on ideology rather than evidence.

This one is rather troubling. The Human Resources and Skills Development library included the largest collection of books in Canada on the social sciences. The libraries physical collections were entirely phased out in early 2013. The fate of these libraries is not unique, however. As I have mentioned, a number of them have been closed.

It is the same problems we have had in Health Canada. The Citizenship and Immigration library was closed in March 2012. We have seen the same thing throughout a number of departments. The National Capital Commission, the Transportation Safety Board, Transportation, Infrastructure and Communities, all have had their libraries closed, without necessarily saving the documentation that was in those libraries. Therefore, we are getting away from evidence-based decision making, again.

All that to say that the motion before us today is, in my opinion, very pertinent. I do not expect the Conservatives to adopt it. NDP members have moved other motions that the Conservative government has also rejected. The same thing will probably happen tonight.

However, what people need to realize is that when there is a change in government, these conditions will be eliminated. Muzzling scientists and preventing them from speaking to journalists is unacceptable. They should have the right to share information, but not necessarily to discuss public policies. I agree that that is not their role. Taxpayers pay them to do research. The research belongs to the Canadian public. We have to reinforce that.

When I campaigned in 2008, I was floored after knocking on one door. A scientist answered the door, but I will not name him because he would get into trouble. He worked for the Government of Canada. He told me that he had just been told that he could not go to a conference and give the speech he was supposed to give because the government did not agree with the facts he was going to present. I am not talking about opinions, but about facts. When I met this person and he told me what the Conservative government had done to him, I became convinced that this had to change.

Unfortunately, this has not yet changed. I hope that it will one day because the scientific base in our society is very important. It is unacceptable that scientists who work for Canadians—and there are now thousands fewer than before—cannot share the information they have. This type of demagoguery is not healthy in a democracy.

We must therefore ensure that this type of behaviour does not occur and that these measures, which were imposed by the Conservatives, are abolished. I do not think they will be wise enough to do it themselves, so let us hope that, during the next election, Canadians make sure that they do not put the Conservatives back in charge and that Canadians are better served by their government, public servants and scientists.

I have never seen this sort of problem in all of my 20 years as an MP. We have always wanted a Parliament and a government that made decisions based on scientific facts, not on ideology. I think we need to change the direction we are now moving in. I hope that we will be able to do that, if not tonight, then in a few months.

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I have two quick questions.

First, what are the member's thoughts on having research findings peer reviewed before they are discussed in the public domain?

Second, the communications policy for scientists is the same policy that was in place when he was in cabinet in the early 2000s. Has the member had a change of heart on that policy and could he provide us with any thoughts on that now?

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I will answer my colleague's second question first.

What he said is not true. That was not the policy of the government I was part of. I was a member of cabinet, and at the time, our scientists were allowed to talk to journalists and share information. I am not talking about discussing public policy. That is a completely different story. I agree with my colleague that that is not the role of scientists. However, they had the right to talk to journalists and to share factual information. I do not see any problem with them continuing to do so.

With regard to my colleague's first question, I am sorry but I do not remember it. If he would like to repeat the question, I will answer it.

[Ève Péclet, NDP, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my hon. colleague mentioned the following in his speech. It is a huge problem that the Conservatives decided to eliminate the mandatory long form census in 2010. In an article published last week, scientists made a heartfelt plea, saying that they no longer have data and that the small amount of data they do have are biased and do not reflect reality. They can no longer conduct research.

Our former chief statistician even made a joke, saying, “Guess what? Canada managed to eliminate poverty. How did it do that? By simply eliminating the mandatory census.”

The Conservatives are trying to eliminate the problem by preventing scientists from accessing data. Thus, the Conservatives will not have to be accountable to the public.

Could my colleague speak to this very serious problem?

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I already spoke about that.

The elimination of the mandatory long form census is probably one of the worst decisions this government has made. It skewed all of the data. Statistics Canada used to be a very strong agency. It has now become weaker. Munir Sheikh chose to resign because, at the time, the government was trying to make him say something he had not said, which is that he agreed that eliminating the mandatory long form census was a good idea. He decided to do what he had to do and would not go along with having words put in his mouth.

That is what is happening now. Scientists are no longer allowed to talk to journalists because the government wants to speak for them. We are lacking solid facts and information, and now that is what will be used to make decisions. Even the private sector is now completely against this decision. It needs to be reversed as soon as possible, certainly before the next census.

[Frank Valeriote, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I want to thank the member for Ottawa—Vanier for his honest assessment of the government's paranoia and tendency toward muzzling of anyone who disagrees with it.

I want to refresh our memories of the past seven years of this government, and I would like my friend to comment.

We will remember the firing of chief superintendent, Marty Cheliak, director general of the Canadian firearms program; the Wheat Board chair, Adrian Measner, president and CEO; Linda Keen, from the Canadian Nuclear Safety Commission; Richard Colvin, diplomat from Foreign Affairs; Peter Tinsley, the military police complaints commissioner; Yves Côté, the ombudsman for National Defence and the Canadian Forces; and the budget officer, Kevin Page, who left. The government decided to oppose and alienate anyone who disagreed with it. We will remember Kairos, an organization that promotes democracy around the world. Bev Oda ensured its funding was cut because it mentioned the word “environment”.

Is the member as much alarmed as I am, and most Canadians, about the government's tendency toward disenfranchising and cutting funding from anyone who disagrees with it?

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Yes, I am alarmed, Mr. Speaker.

There is a new phenomenon in this city that I have not seen before. In the past, I found that when public servants retired, they were somewhat discreet and did not get actively involved in political parties. However, what I find today is rather surprising in that when they retire, they very rapidly join our party. They want to get rid of the Conservative government because of the way they have been treated, and it is not just the scientists but other public servants as well. I have mentioned this before.

In Bill C-4, the government totally put in shambles the laws governing the relationship with our public service. In the current bill before the House, Bill C-59, it is the same thing. The Conservatives would give the President of the Treasury Board total power to decide unilaterally, without negotiation, how to arrive at a sick leave program. It is not through negotiations anymore.

What has happened in the last few years is that our federal public service has been totally mistreated, and it is not prepared to accept that anymore, including the scientists.

[Phil McColeman, Conservative, Brant, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to repeat the question asked by my colleague. The member forgot to respond to it. Does the member find it important that any scientific information produced by any particular scientist be peer reviewed before it is spoken about in the public realm?

Second, our government created the Science, Technology and Innovation Council, which created numerous voices on scientific matters. Does the member believe that more voices are preferred to a single voice, as the opposition is advocating?

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Mr. Speaker, there have always been a number of scientific bodies giving advice to the government, but only once was there an adviser to the prime minister, and the Conservatives abolished the position.

Yes, we think we need an adviser to give advice to the Government of Canada. However, if the Conservatives believe for one second that person, whomever that may end up being, would do so unilaterally without consulting broadly, they are totally wrong.

In terms of peer review, absolutely. That is the nature of science. However, the Conservatives are now saying that because of peer-reviewed publications, scientists are free. Well, they are not, because scientists before have been allowed to speak to reporters, journalists, but they are no longer allowed to do that.

To try to use the peer review as an excuse for imposing a muzzle on scientists is totally inadequate and unacceptable.

[The Acting Speaker, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

We have time for a brief question and answer.

The hon. member for Pontiac.

[Mathieu Ravignat, NDP, Pontiac, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I listened closely to what my colleague had to say, and I agree with him.

It is unfortunate that the government does not trust taxpayer-funded scientists. The truth is the truth, and people should be free to talk about it. It is also unfortunate that the government got rid of the long form census, which provided insight into many populations.

I would like to know my hon. colleague's reaction to the government's habit of making up its own facts and its own truths without listening to our public sector scientists.

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Mr. Speaker, that goes back to what I was saying at the beginning of my speech: every government should make decisions based on facts, not ideology.

This is not a perfect world, and no government has been perfect. However, when I was in cabinet, we made much more of an effort to rely on facts and evidence than on ideology. This government gives us the impression that it is doing the opposite. Its decisions tend to be based more on ideology than on evidence, as demonstrated by the fact that it no longer allows scientists to talk to journalists.

Another example of that attitude is the elimination of the mandatory long form census, a choice that eroded the foundation for many decisions about municipalities, universities, businesses and provinces.

I get the sense that this government is relying more and more heavily on ideology than on facts.

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Parliamentary Secretary to the President of the Treasury Board]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to split my time with the hon. Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Justice.

I am very pleased to address this motion today, but before I get into that, I would just like to address some of the comments by the member for Ottawa—Vanier.

I want to make it clear that the President of the Treasury Board is working very hard in good faith with unions to find a way to address many of the concerns around sick leave, in particular in establishing a system that serves all of our public servants, particularly those who are new to public service. If the member opposite would like to see more information, other than just the talking points supplied to him by the Liberal Party, it might be helpful to him to understand what the government is attempting to do, which is in the public interest.

In everything we do, our government is committed to ensuring that our activities stand up to the highest level of public scrutiny. This includes our communication efforts to inform citizens about the excellent work we all do to build a stronger Canada.

The government is committed to ensuring that these communications are well coordinated, managed effectively and tailored to the public's various information needs. I reject any allegation otherwise.

Our government clearly understands the importance of providing the public with timely, accurate, clear, objective and complete information about its policies, programs, services and initiatives.

We also understand the need to use a variety of ways and means to communicate and provide information in multiple formats to accommodate diverse needs. In fact, all means of communication, from traditional methods to new technologies must be used to reach and communicate with Canadians wherever they may reside.

Any modern government requires the capacity to respond effectively over multiple channels in a 24-hour global communications environment. I am proud to say that we have been building this capacity in a number of areas. There are now over 1,200 Government of Canada social media accounts, such as Twitter and YouTube, and this number is growing weekly. Clearly, these tools have become indispensable in today's modern workplace.

Our government also recognizes the importance of providing quick, courteous and responsive service that considers the public's needs, addresses the public's concerns and respects the rights of individuals.

In addition, our government understands that it must ensure all institutions of the Government of Canada work collaboratively to achieve coherence and effective communications with the public.

It is useful to recognize the government includes dozens of organizations and thousands of employees spread across our great country and of course the world. That is why it is imperative we ensure coordination within, between and among federal institutions. Indeed, collaboration is, and must be, a top priority in this or any complex environment, otherwise we risk failing in one of our main duties of delivering information services in the best interests of Canadians and their government.

For the same reason, we also recognize the need to have well-developed processes and procedures for communicating with the public. It is worth underlining that in our system of government ministers are the principle spokespersons of the Government of Canada. This is because, under the Canadian parliamentary system that we all cherish, they are accountable to Parliament for presenting and explaining government policies, priorities and decisions to the public.

Let me repeat this last point one more time, because it is central to the issue we are debating today. It is the duty of every minister of the Crown to present and explain government policies, priorities and decisions to the public, and they are supported in this role by senior management teams of government institutions, including deputy heads, heads of communications and other officials.

These individuals work closely together to ensure that the government speaks with a unified voice that is coherent and consistent across the government. I would add that all public servants understand that elected officials are accountable to Parliament and ultimately to the Canadian people and that a non-partisan public sector is essential to our democratic system. In fact, this understanding is a condition of employment for all public servants in the federal public sector and part of the Values and Ethics Code for the Public Sector.

Anyone who wants to find out more can consult the communications policy of the government. It includes all of the principles I have discussed today and many others, including requirements to reflect Canada's diversity, to communicate in plain language, and of course to communicate in Canada's official languages.

The policy states that:

In the Canadian system of parliamentary democracy and responsible government, the government has a duty to explain its policies and decisions, and to inform the public of its priorities for the country.

The policy also indicates that the public has a right to this information.

I can assure all hon. members in this place that our government takes this duty very seriously. We understand the importance of communicating to Canadians openly and transparently. We recognize that information is necessary for Canadians—individually or through representative groups or members of Parliament—to participate actively and meaningfully in the democratic process.

Before I close, I would like to provide a personal comment based on my own experience in this area. We are fortunate in my riding of Okanagan—Coquihalla to have two federally funded research facilities: PARC, the Pacific Agri-Food Research Centre in Summerland, British Columbia; and DRAO, the Dominion Radio Astrophysical Observatory near Okanagan Falls. Let me tell the House that these facilities do important work and they have made many strategic innovation-related partnerships that are important to our region and, I would also say, important to science in this country, and that research that is important for our world. I have attended both of these facilities, and I have to say that I have met many outstanding scientists in their respective fields.

In my experience, the scientists I have met greatly enjoy the work they do and are always happy to host elected officials so they can learn more about the work the scientists do. It has never been suggested to me by any scientists I have met that they are in any way, shape, or form muzzled or feel that somehow the government is at war with them. In reality, it is actually the complete opposite, and that is why I will be opposing this motion. It is filled with the usual anti-government narrative popular among those who oppose our government. However, it does not reflect the reality of what I have experienced from the scientists I have met in my riding of Okanagan—Coquihalla. In fact, one DRAO scientist even writes a popular column in a local newspaper. They are hardly muzzled.

Every organization has communication structures and related processes. If the Liberals truly believe science is better served by abandoning an orderly process in favour of a free-for-all approach, so be it. On this side of the House, we respectfully disagree.

[Kennedy Stewart, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I listened to my colleague's speech with interest. Earlier today, I asked the Minister of State for Science and Technology about cuts to the federal science rolls. I noted that in 2011 we had just over 39,000 scientists employed by the federal government; now we are down to 35,000.

The minister sidestepped the question. I wonder if his colleague could explain why 4,000 scientists and researchers have been fired from the federal government rolls, and if he thinks this is a mistake.

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I certainly appreciate the opportunity to address my fellow British Columbian, and I appreciate his interest in this file. Certainly I do not speak for the minister, but I will speak to my experience in Okanagan—Coquihalla.

When there were some suggestions made by some people that we were making massive cuts to the Pacific Agri-Food Research Centre, I made a point of inquiring to find out what they were talking about. In fact, they were talking about letting go one administrative position simply because that person was the assistant for a scientist who had retired over a year earlier; the role has not been replaced, so to keep someone on the payroll for that extended amount of time did not make sense.

Unfortunately, the same kind of voices speaking out, saying the government is cutting this or cutting that and is destroying science, seem to overwhelm the opposition. When we actually look at what the government proposes, it is oftentimes in the back office, oftentimes for redundancies, and we want to make sure that our scientists are supported.

Every time I have brought members of Parliament to PARC, they have always been richly rewarded by the experience, by the talent of our scientists. They appreciate the resources they are given, because at the end of the day places like the Okanagan rely so much on agriculture, and with some of the cutting-edge research that we rely on—whether it be on grape growing, viniculture, agriculture, tree fruits—those discoveries save jobs in the future. They make us more efficient and they make us more productive and competitive in this world economy.

[Adam Vaughan, Liberal, Trinity—Spadina, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I just heard there is a concern about public servants being partisan. What we are talking about here are scientists who are a subsection of the public service, but nonetheless research is not ideological. Scientists work with facts, and those facts are peer-reviewed and tested against other facts. It is not about opinions or ideas; it is about scientific fact and research.

The motion calls on the House to unmuzzle that practice, to respect intellectual freedom, but also to respect academic freedom and to allow scientists to present their facts in an objective way.

What evidence do the government members have that the scientists in the employ of the government are not pursuing true scientific testing? What facts do they have to support this notion that the science may be partisan and therefore should be filtered by a minister? What facts do they have that Canadian scientists in the employ of the government are not in fact objective? Do they have any facts, or is it just anecdotal evidence they are presenting to us?

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I certainly appreciate the member's concern. This is a good forum for debate on this, but I remind the member that ultimately we all can relate to what actually is happening on the ground. I have brought elected officials; in fact I have invited all members of the House to come and visit the facilities I mentioned earlier. Some have, and I am very happy to take them there. They will find that we have extremely talented scientists doing extremely rewarding work and getting their work out to everyone.

One little note is that I find it absolutely curious that it is the same Liberal Party that, when it says it will hold open nominations for elections and it turns out to be not true, is the first one to put out a spokesperson from the Liberal Party who will speak in one unified voice to address concerns by people who do not feel that they are open nominations. It is interesting that the Liberal Party utilizes this process for its gains and yet no other organization is allowed to use that kind of thinking. It is curious to me.

[Robert Goguen, Conservative, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Justice]

Mr. Speaker, I am thankful for the opportunity to address the motion put forward by the hon. member opposite about government science and government scientists speaking publicly about their work. Allow me to offer a few points that are relevant to the issue.

One of the concerns suggested in the motion is that government scientists are not allowed to speak publicly about their work for the federal government.

Let me be clear. We understand and support the desire for government scientists to share their work and speak publicly about the work they do for the Government of Canada. Government scientists can do this. However, they must do so within the framework of policies and procedures that govern communications within the Government of Canada.

The Government of Canada, as we know, is large and complex as an organization. There are almost 260,000 employees in the core federal public service spread across many different departments, and like many large organizations, the federal government needs to ensure its messages are consistent and coordinated. In fact, there are best practices in large organizations, both private and in the public sector, to ensure this happens, and the Government of Canada is certainly no different.

The framework of rules in the federal government includes a number of guidelines.

For example, the Government of Canada is guided by the communications policy of the Government of Canada. This is a Treasury Board policy that applies to many government departments. In a nutshell, it sets out the protocol that departments have in place to ensure it communicates effectively.

In their roles as principal spokespersons for their departments, the ministers are supported by their aides. These, of course, can be executive assistants, communications directors, and press secretaries in the ministers' offices. Ministers can also be supported in their roles by the senior management teams of government institutions. These include deputy heads, heads of communications, and other officials. Within the institution itself, officials can also be designated to speak on behalf of ministers, and those include technical and, of course, subject matter experts. There is a protocol in place to ensure that the information being shared or communicated to the public by those designated to speak on behalf of the government is consistent and coordinated.

The communications policy of the Government of Canada provides other safeguards as well. Departmental spokespersons, at all times, must respect privacy rights, security needs, matters before the courts, government policy, cabinet confidences and ministerial responsibility.

In addition, they must also confine their remarks to matters of fact concerning the policies, programs, services or initiatives of their institution. So while the communications policy of the Government of Canada allows for designated spokespersons to speak to the media, it requires they follow the rules in doing so.

In fact, there is a whole raft of good reasons why those speaking to the media or sharing information or commenting on the affairs of government are required to follow our best practices. Canada is one of the world's leading democracies, and the ability of government scientists to talk to others and to the public about their work is one of the hallmarks of our democracy.

It is a feature of our democracy that protects both the interests and the rights of the employer, as well as the Canadian public it represents. It is just common sense to have a balanced approach like this. When individuals are employees of an organization, they are usually bound not to share details of their employer's business without permission, whether they work for Apple, Google, or the Government of Canada.

And as we all know, confidentiality is also the basis of professional integrity in fields such as law, medicine, accounting and journalism. The point is that being an employee brings with it a responsibility to those who employ you to follow the protocols that govern communications to protect the interests of all.

Another government guideline that speaks to this issue is the Values and Ethics Code for the Public Sector.

This code outlines the values and expected behaviours that guide public servants in all activities related to their professional duties and is a condition of employment for all public servants in the federal public sector. There is also a policy on conflict of interest and post-employment, which is also a condition of employment in the public service. It guides public servants to contribute to good government, democracy, and Canadian society through the loyal, impartial, and non-partisan support they provide to the elected government.

As dedicated professionals, they serve the public interest and uphold the public trust. Public servants must recognize that elected officials are accountable to Parliament and, ultimately, to the Canadian people and that a non-partisan public sector is essential to our democratic system. Therefore, communications by public service employees must take place within certain prescribed limits to ensure their impartiality. There is also the public interest to be protected, and our framework of policies has been created over the years to do exactly that.

All of us who are employees of the public institutions in this country have a responsibility to safeguard the interests of the Government of Canada. That is our job. It is our duty to do so. That includes, of course, ensuring information about programs and services is communicated to the public and is communicated responsibly.

Our policies on government communications are also in line with the government’s move to open government in general. Open government is, among other things, about improving transparency and accountability in public institutions. It is a way to strengthen our democratic institutions, our economy and society in the digital world.

Canada, among the world's nations, is a leader in bringing open government principles to fruition in this country. It is something we believe in very strongly and wholeheartedly, whether we are sharing government data, disclosing information on government expenses or sharing information with the public. Open government and open communications go hand in hand. We will protect, we will promote and we will practise these principles in an intelligent and balanced way. That, of course, applies to government scientists sharing their information and communications with the public as well.

I would ask our hon. friends to join us in promoting responsible open communications within the Government of Canada.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

Mr. Speaker, as we listen to the government as it responds to a very proactive, progressive motion that is before the House recognizing the valuable contributions that scientists make to our society, we would think that it has its collective head in the sand. The Conservatives do not quite understand. Canada is losing scientists because of their attitude. There are scientists who are not able to share their work, their results, their studies and so forth, because the current government has put a gag order on our scientists.

My question for the member is, does he not recognize that scientists have the great potential if they were allowed to contribute to the debate and do simple things, such as having an interview with a member of the media in certain situations where the results that they want to provide would be very informative and assist in Canada moving in the right direction on good policy based upon science? Would he not acknowledge that is important for Canadian policy makers?

[Robert Goguen, Conservative, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

Mr. Speaker, as we sit here in the national capital, not in fantasyland, where the most talented scientists in the world work here in Ottawa in great numbers, we work with them in determining facts. Science is, of course, all about facts. Here are some interesting facts.

Fact: the Canadian federal government agencies have produced over 4,000 science publications per year.

Fact: public health agencies of Canada filled out over 3,000 media enquiries last year.

Fact: Natural Resources Canada scientists filled out over 470 media interviews last year and our scientists published, on average, 500 peer-reviewed articles in science.

We love the facts. We like sharing them with the public and the rest of the world so they can see how great Canada's scientists are.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Mr. Speaker, it is said that pride goeth before a fall. I wonder, with governments near the 9-10 year mark, whether or not they just become blind to the realities and are unable to hear what is actually being said.

In this debate today, we have, I think, a very well-inspired motion which talks about the reality, that scientists who work for the federal government in this country have almost uniformly complained they feel muzzled by the current government's policy. I have not heard any scientists come forward who say that they are proud of the government's policies of openness and transparency and sharing information. Quite the contrary. Scientists are coming out and complaining that the current government is muzzling them.

All I hear back from the government are statistics on how much money it is putting into funding science or what high quality science we have in this country, both of which may be true, but that is not the issue before the House. The issue before the House is whether or not the civil service and the scientists who work for the government are being unduly constrained in their ability to talk to the media, or opposition or civil society about the work they do.

I am asking the member to address his comments to that issue, which is the substance of this motion.

Does he or does he not agree that Canadian scientists are expressing publicly that they feel the current policy is unduly muzzling them, yes or no?

[Robert Goguen, Conservative, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

Mr. Speaker, if the hallmark is that there be 100% possibility of every interview asked for being granted by a scientist, then it must be muzzling.

What I know in the instance of fisheries, with respect to interviews requested of those working on the science base, is that last year 91% of the interviews requested were commented upon by scientists working for the Department of Fisheries.

No, it is not 100%. There is a consistency of communication, there is a timeline to follow, and of course we have to protect some of our scientific developments for the betterment of Canada and Canadian society.

If they are so muzzled how is it, then, that in a 2014 report by Thomson Reuters, three environmental Canadian scientists were listed as being among the world's most influential scientific minds? There must be something they are saying out there that is observed by the rest of the world for them to have such great accolades.