Debates of Sept. 29th, 2016

Opposition Motion--Creation of a Standing Committee on Arms Exports Review

[David Graham, Liberal, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to have the opportunity to speak about this important topic. It is encouraging to see that the members of the House share the interest of our government and all Canadians in maintaining high standards for peace, security, and human rights.

One of Canada's key foreign policy priorities is to maintain peace and security. In light of that fact, Canada has one of the strongest export control systems in the world, and that system is consistent with those of our allies and security partners.

The Government of Canada strives to ensure that Canadian exports are not prejudicial to peace, security, or stability in any region of the world or within any country. All exports of controlled goods and technology, including military equipment, are carefully checked to ensure that they meet these objectives and the main objectives of our foreign policy, such as the protection of human rights.

Our government is enhancing the rigour and transparency of Canada's export controls with respect to military and strategic goods and technology. As the Minister of Foreign Affairs said earlier this year, the government is undertaking measures in a number of different areas.

For one thing, we will accede to the United Nations Arms Trade Treaty. This treaty aims to stop unregulated arms transfers, which intensify and prolong conflict, and to create common international standards for the export of weapons. In order to do this, we will make all of the necessary changes to legislation and regulation to be able to implement all of the treaty's obligations.

It is important to recognize that Canada meets nearly all of these obligations already. However, some additional work is required. That being said, I would like to underline that the treaty was designed to bring other countries up to the high standards of export controls that Canada has in place.

The criteria that we currently use to assess export permit applications, which have been implemented through policy for many years, will now be a legal requirement. We will also outline a clear policy on how overriding risk assessment, as set out in the treaty, would apply in the assessment of proposals to export goods covered by the treaty.

Canada will also implement controls on brokering activities by Canadians who facilitate arms transfers between third countries. This is a new regulatory area for Canada, and we are consulting the industry and NGOs on how best to implement this obligation.

We will introduce legislation to enact the necessary changes in order to ensure that Canada has all the necessary laws and regulations in place to be able to accede to the Arms Trade Treaty in 2017.

We are also making changes to improve transparency, specifically by making more information about exports of military and strategic goods available to Canadians. Annual reports on how the Export and Import Permits Act is being administered and annual reports on exports of military goods from Canada will now be more transparent, more user-friendly, and more informative, and will be tabled in Parliament on time, beginning next year.

It should be noted that on June 17, 2016, at the same time the Arms Trade Treaty was tabled in the House of Commons, the government also tabled four reports on export controls. They were the 2014 and 2015 reports on exports of military goods and technology from Canada, and the 2014 and 2015 annual reports to Parliament on the administration of the Export and Import Permits Act.

As the Minister of Foreign Affairs confirmed, from now on, those reports will be tabled on a fixed date, which will be enshrined in the law. Canadians can expect those reports to be tabled no later than May 31 each year.

In keeping with standard practice, these reports will also be published online as soon as they are tabled in the House so that all Canadians can clearly understand how the export control system works. We have already made additions and improvements to these reports, including those that were tabled in the House in June.

The purpose of the improvements that have been made to date was mainly to make the content easier to understand; provide additional data and information, including the proportion of strategic export permits issued to the 12 destination countries; present the data in a more clear and straightforward manner; provide more context; explain the data; remove complex technical jargon; and eliminate the need to compare various data across all reports.

The government also provided a clearer explanation of the decision-making process in its reports, including the obligation to keep track of the number of applications that were rejected, withdrawn, or returned for administrative reasons without any measures being taken.

We have made significant improvements to previous reports and we intend to do more. We are holding consultations with relevant stakeholders, including NGOs and the industry, in order to determine how we can make these reports even more informative, transparent, and easy to understand for all Canadians.

Our goal is to provide additional facts, content, context, and explanations so as to make the reports clearer and more useful to all readers. While we will do all we can to provide as much information as possible to enhance transparency, we must do so in a fashion that will not harm Canada's business interests or negatively impact either competitiveness or the livelihoods of Canadians who are employed in this important commercial sector.

We are convinced that we can strike the right balance between protecting the commercial interests of Canadian businesses and keeping our commitment to make the export control system more rigorous and transparent and to accede to the Arms Trade Treaty.

[François Choquette, NDP, Drummond, QC]

Mr. Speaker, this NDP opposition day is extremely important, as is this motion, especially when we think of the controversy surrounding the Liberal government over revelations that it recently used evidence obtained through torture.

Let us not forget the sale of light armoured vehicles to Saudi Arabia, a country that is still holding prisoner Raif Badawi, a Canadian citizen whose wife is in Sherbrooke. My colleague from Sherbrooke has worked very hard on this file and knows it very well.

There are rules prohibiting the sale of arms to countries that commit human rights abuses. In that case, how can we sell arms to Saudi Arabia, when we are trying to free a Canadian citizen in that country who was charged with having a political opinion? I do not understand it. That is why this committee must be established immediately.

[David Graham, Liberal, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I do not see how a new, redundant committee, in other words, a committee that would do the same work of existing committees, would change anything. It would create more red tape in our parliamentary system and would not change the situation.

[Tom Kmiec, Conservative, Calgary Shepard, AB]

Mr. Speaker, like several of his colleagues, the member failed to directly address the wording used in the motion. They spoke about human rights and manufacturing jobs in the defence sector, but they did not answer the questions asked by our party and the NDP.

Why did the Liberal members of the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs vote against creating a subcommittee that would have studied this issue? We would not have had to debate the NDP motion in the House today, because the subcommittee would have already started studying this matter.

[David Graham, Liberal, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I have two things to say about that.

First, we do not control what committees do. They are independent. If there were a new committee, it would also be independent and make its own decisions. I do not see how that would change anything.

[Dan Vandal, Liberal, Saint Boniface—Saint Vital, MB]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank the member for his very intelligent presentation.

The Canadian defence industry is an extremely important sector of our economy. Our Liberal government will introduce a bill to accede to the UN Arms Trade Treaty.

Can my colleague explain why the opposition motion was not required for today's debate?

[David Graham, Liberal, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Mr. Speaker, it is not that I do not believe that the committees should or could study this type of information; it is just that I do not see how a new committee could change things when the current committee can already carry out such a study.

As was mentioned, there are 70,000 jobs in this sector. It is important to do the necessary research on how this sector is used. However, having two committees rather than one study this issue would not change anything.

[Cheryl Hardcastle, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I will try to make this quick. I am trying to get my head around the disappointments that are happening in this chamber today. I just heard one member extrapolate data to justify denying human rights. Now, I am hearing another member tell us that he is proud of his government's transparency.

I have a quick question for the member. Can he give us some details about the military permits that were just released for the military dictatorship of Thailand?

[David Graham, Liberal, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I would love to be able to answer that. I do not actually know those numbers.

I do not see how the motion affects any of that, if the existing committee is already in place.

[François Choquette, NDP, Drummond, QC]

Mr. Speaker, before I begin my speech, I would like to inform you that I will be sharing my time with the fine member for Cowichan—Malahat—Langford.

I am pleased to rise in the House to speak to an extremely important motion that was moved by the NDP and that could change many things in terms of our respect for human rights and our efforts to ensure human rights are upheld around the world.

First of all, the motion states that Canadian arms exports have nearly doubled over the past decade. That is significant. It is a huge industry. We need to take a closer look at it. In addition, the motion states that Canada is now the second-largest exporter of arms to the Middle East, after the United States. We are not a small player here. Given that not all countries in the Middle East respect human rights, Canadians expect a high standard from their government when it comes to protecting human rights abroad.

We have talked about that many times. We have also raised some of the problems related to the use of torture abroad and the use, in Canada, of information obtained through torture. We want to repeal the ministerial directive that allows this use, and we expect the Liberal government to come to its senses and do just that. It is very simple. Canadians care about the values of democracy and human rights, and they know that this is tarnishing our reputation.

The motion also states that Canadians are concerned by arms sales to countries with a record of human rights abuses, including Saudi Arabia, Libya, and Sudan. Accordingly, there is a need for Canadians, through Parliament, to oversee this practice.

Nobody can do that oversight now. There is no committee devoted exclusively to arms sales abroad. The Liberals have to stop saying the committee or the process would duplicate what is already being done.

That is why we are proposing the creation of an arms exports review committee. Now that we are the second-largest exporter of arms to the Middle East, this is a major issue. Only the United States exports more than we do. Recently, a number of problems, such as winning the largest arms sale to Saudi Arabia, have attracted our attention.

The mere mention of Saudi Arabia shocks a lot of people. Sherbrooke is home to the wife of Raif Badawi, a Canadian who was imprisoned for his political views and was even lashed. We do not know his health status at the moment, and we are worried about him. My colleague from Sherbrooke has worked so hard to support the family and free Raif Badawi. That is not a country that respects human rights.

When we found out that the government signed a huge deal to sell light armoured vehicles, the Prime Minister tried to keep a lid on it saying that they were just small jeeps and it was no big deal. However, jeeps with machine guns attached to them is not something you see driving around the streets of downtown Drummondville. These are not just small jeeps. Theses are military vehicles. We do not want the sale of such vehicles to be taken lightly. This has to be done with as much transparency as necessary.

In fact, the Liberal government was elected on a promise to be transparent.

As I said earlier, none of the committees currently has the necessary information to adequately assess criteria for the sale of materiel to countries such as Saudi Arabia in a way that is transparent and respectful of human rights.

We urged the Liberals to send us the documents on the human rights compliance assessment of Saudi Arabia. It is all well and good to want to sell arms to Saudi Arabia, but we have to know whether an assessment has been done. It is called a human rights assessment. The assessment was finally made public by the Liberals. When we saw it, it was clear that this would not work. We cannot sell light armoured vehicles to Saudi Arabia.

The human rights assessment did indeed show that these rights are being trampled and are not respected. These arms export permits should not have been issued.

That conclusion raises the following questions, which I would like to ask our Liberal colleagues. How can the Liberals say that they are following Canada's current guidelines for issuing export permits given the human rights situation in Saudi Arabia? There is a chance that those light armoured vehicles will be used to commit human rights violations against the people of Saudi Arabia and Yemen, as the assessment of the human rights situation in Saudi Arabia has shown.

Canada is not able to guarantee how and when the Saudi regime will use those light armoured vehicles. Does the government really intend to rely on the assurances it is given by the Saudi government? That does not make any sense.

Earlier, in his speech, my colleague opposite said that there was no reason to create such a committee because we already have one. I repeat: right now, there is no committee that focuses on foreign arms sales. Yet, Canadian arms exports have recently doubled. Canada is the second-largest exporter of arms to the Middle East. The government may even be in the process of signing weapons contracts with a military junta in Thailand. No one has given us any answers in that regard. We cannot allow that to happen. That is why we need to set up this type of committee.

Obviously, my colleague is going to ask why we would set up a committee like that here in Canada when no other countries are doing it. That is not true. The United Kingdom has had a parliamentary committee on the sale and export of arms to foreign countries since 1999. As my daughter would say, “That is before 2000. We were not born yet. That was the old days.” That committee has been around for a long time, so it is something that can be done and done well. Canada could emulate the United Kingdom. We need to do so because more and more weapons are being sold to countries with questionable human rights records.

The fact that the British committee exists means that the British public now has greater access to information on the arms trade of its country, which was not the case before. If Canada were to create this committee, we would have much more information. For example, we would know whether Canada is preparing to sell arms to Thailand's military junta. We have not been given an answer.

How can we sell arms to Saudi Arabia and ensure respect for human rights? We asked the question, but we have not been given an answer. That is why this committee is vital.

I would like to congratulate my colleague from Laurier—Sainte-Marie, who does a great job on all matters of diplomacy and foreign affairs.

I congratulate the member on moving this motion, and I encourage everyone to support it.

[Lloyd Longfield, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

Mr. Speaker, Canadians expect an export control system that is rigorous, transparent, and predictable.

Plans for acceding to the Arms Trade Treaty are subject to intensive consultation with NGOs and industry before introducing legislation this fall, at which time all parliamentarians will have the opportunity to scrutinize and review these plans.

Does the hon. member really see short-circuiting the normal parliamentary process as a good thing?

[François Choquette, NDP, Drummond, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I have here a little note to the effect that there are new reports that the Saudi forces used tactical equipment manufactured in Canada during raids against dissidents, which caused mostly civilian deaths. Pieces of equipment were found indicating that they were manufactured in Canada.

That is what the recent assessment of the situation shows and why selling these light armoured vehicles to Saudi Arabia is so puzzling. We need an additional safeguard, one we could rely on if this committee existed. The committee could make this information public and scrutinize it to ensure that we uphold our reputation as defenders of human rights.

[Brigitte Sansoucy, NDP, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

Mr. Speaker, as my colleague said, the issue of arms exports goes far beyond the current mandate of all existing House of Commons committees. Since this debate began, we have been hearing that there is no need because we already have committees.

The issue currently before the House overlaps with the work of many committees, including the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Development, the Standing Committee on National Defence, the Standing Committee on International Trade, the Standing Committee on Industry, Science and Technology, the Standing Committee on Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities, and the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights.

There is an expression that says everybody's business is nobody's business. Would my colleague agree that that seems to be the case here?

[François Choquette, NDP, Drummond, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I want to thank my hon. colleague from Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, who works very hard. We went on an agricultural tour together this summer. I know how dedicated she is to her constituents. That is extremely important, and I am happy to have her as a colleague.

She hit the nail right on the head. There is no committee devoted exclusively to arms sales abroad. Committees deal with a lot of other issues, but the situation has changed over the past 10 years. We used to sell arms primarily to NATO countries. In the wake of the Stephen Harper Conservatives era, we are selling more and more arms to countries with highly questionable human rights records.

We asked the Liberals, and I will ask them again, if they can confirm or deny that Foreign Affairs issued a permit to export arms to Thailand, which is controlled by a military junta. We think it did, but nobody can tell us. That would be utterly unacceptable.

That is exactly why we need this committee. In fact, that is what makes this committee vitally important to our country now that we are selling so many weapons, an increasing number of them to Middle Eastern countries.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I want to start off by thanking the member for Laurier—Sainte-Marie for her incredible work on this issue, and for bringing this issue in today's motion as part of our opposition day.

The motion comes at a very important and crucial time for Canada. Over the last number of years we have seen some cracks appearing in the government's narrative that all is well and all is under control with respect to our arms exports.

I want to read the first four main points of the motion for the constituents of Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, and indeed all Canadians, so that it is clear what the motion is about. It states:

...(i) Canadian arms exports have nearly doubled over the past decade, and that Canada is now the second-largest exporter of arms to the Middle East..,, (ii) Canadians expect a high standard from their government when it comes to protecting human rights abroad, (iii) Canadians are concerned by arms sales to countries with a record of human rights abuses, including Saudi Arabia, Libya, and Sudan, (iv) there is a need for Canadians, through Parliament, to oversee current and future arms sales...

Those are the facts.

I am most troubled, because we have heard that the Liberal government will not support the motion, which means it is basically against parliamentary oversight and more accountability. It is not putting its money where its mouth is. It is just a lot more talk from the Liberal side, with no real action on this front. That is a real disappointment.

I will enjoy bringing this to light time and time again. As we approach 2019, we will have a whole textbook full of examples of the Liberals saying one thing and doing another.

Every Canadian has a right to know what the government is doing with respect to the business of arms deals. I do not believe it should be a secret. Canada is selling arms to countries with terrible human rights. I want to be clear. This is not a normal export. This is not about whether one supports the defence industry or not. We are not saying that we should be stopping our arms exports. We simply want to know if the arms go to countries that have a real accountability mechanism, and whether we can track those arms after they have been sold to those country. After that it seems to be a big black hole.

These are not normal exports. They are designed with one purpose in mind. They are military grade weapons and hardware. Let us be frank about this. They are designed to kill other people, or put down unrest or enhance security. For that reason alone, we need more control over how they are being used.

The oversight that we need to establish for our arms exports is not an unprecedented change. We have had a few members in the NDP raise this. The United Kingdom, which is one of the biggest arms exporters in the world, has a parliamentary oversight committee that was set up many years ago. Some members have argued that the NDP by advocating for this committee is somehow going against our own defence industry. Would those members use that same argument against the British? Would they say that the British are against their own arms industry because they want to have more accountability and oversight? It does not make sense.

We need the tools to look at exactly how this export regime is working. The British committee examines all aspects of arms deals, from licensing to broader policy issues.

Because of the government's history of not being forthcoming with information like that, we have to look to the fact that the government is ultimately accountable to Parliament. Of course the appropriate ministers have to stand in the House and explain themselves. However, that often comes with a lot of effort from the opposition side. Also, if the government is lucky enough to hold a majority in the House, it can quite easily dictate how it releases that information.

Polling among Canadian shows that people are against selling weapons and negotiating arms deals with countries that are serial human rights abusers. If we had this committee, we could be doing what the U.K. is doing right now, and reviewing the exports to Saudi Arabia in particular. The evidence is that our military grade weaponry and hardware is being used in Yemen, and also to put down political dissent.

The fact that our exports have gone up so much to the Middle East, which, frankly, is a powder keg right now with so many conflicts going on there, I do not see why the Liberal government would be against this type of oversight. Back in the day we used to sell mostly to our fellow NATO allies. Those absolutely are countries with which we can do business. However, when it comes to ones with questionable human rights, that is where we need to have far more oversight.

The reason for a new committee that would specifically look at arms exports is because arms exports do not fit into any one simple category, and this needs to be clearly explained for the government side. For example, arms exports could rightfully be brought up at the committees on international trade, or defence, or foreign affairs, or labour and human rights. They all have stakes in this one issue. Therefore, it is prudent that we set up just one committee so we can look at those multi-faceted issues.

Saudi Arabia has been mentioned a lot in this debate. It is the world's second largest buyer of military equipment from our country. We have been told by the Conservatives, and now the Liberals, that Canada has strong export rules, and that we are supposed to prohibit sales to countries whose governments have a persistent record of serious violations of human rights of their citizens unless it can be demonstrated that there is no reasonable risk that the goods might be used against the civilian population. I would submit to the House that this certainly is not the case with Saudi Arabia.

We have also heard questions from my hon. friends on this side, because there is a lot of secrecy about the arms deal that was done with the military government in place in Thailand. Of course, Thailand has been experiencing an amount of unrest.

The other thing is that this summer Canadians were treated to the news story that the government had weakened its arms export policy. We do not control or track the use of arms exports overseas, so there is no way of telling how they are being used.

I appreciate that we are going to eventually sign-on to the arms trade treaty, but we still do not have a timeline. Of course, officials from Global Affairs Canada have suggested that the expected treaty will not raise the current standards for Canadian arms exports.

We heard about the Streit Group in the news and how some of its machinery ended up going to Sudan. This is the problem with these arms companies when they have bases of operation in many different countries. They might have a base in Canada, but if, like the Streit Group, which has operations in the United Arab Emirates, it kind of muddies the water and becomes harder for us to track them down. Therefore, if we have a committee whose sole purpose is to examine these issues, we can focus with laser-like precision on this issue.

In 2012, the Streit Group was accused of violating international law by selling armoured vehicles to Libya. The UN has been involved in that and has brought this to light.

Saudi Arabia certainly has a very large record of human rights abuses. We know that Canadian-made tactical equipment was used by Saudi forces in raids against dissidents. We have seen evidence of military gear with the made-in-Canada stamp, and so on.

We need this parliamentary oversight for our arms exports before we are treated to more bad news. I do not think we can wait for the legislation for the arms trade treaty to come forward.

This is very much like the national security committee that is being proposed. We need to have a multi-party standing committee with the ability to summon witnesses, really review some of our export rules and any treaties that are coming about, and with laser-like focus, spend the time on that.

I appreciate the chance to stand in favour of this motion. I certainly hope some members will come to their senses and see to it. It really is in the best interest of our country.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I respectfully suggest for the hon. member that the international trade committee has the ability to look at these sorts of questions. The foreign affairs committee has the opportunity to examine such questions. In fact, it will do so in the coming weeks when it carries out its study of sanctions policy in Canada. That committee will be examining the sort of work that is being called for in the opposition day motion. There is no reason to create another committee, another level of bureaucracy, to examine these sorts of questions and concerns that are important but can be done within the existing structure.

I also hasten to add that in my city of London, Ontario, General Dynamics Land Systems, a very important firm, central to the defence sector in that city and across the country in fact, does incredibly important work. The NDP seems to support the workers and GDLS, but has since changed its position.

I wonder if the hon. member is aware of the fact that between 1980 and 2016, GDLS has been involved in producing vehicles that have been involved in 35 missions, and that includes 8 chapter VI related United Nations peacekeeping operations, 7 chapter VII sanctioned United Nations operations, and 4 NATO-related operations, as well as 14 operations in support of domestic emergencies in our country, including flooding.

Could the NDP comment on that, because the workers at GDLS want to know its thoughts?

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I am more than happy to respond to those points.

First, with respect to the member's statements about the committee work, the Standing Committee on International Trade has so many files to look at, such as softwood lumber. Our trade is so multi-faceted. Yes, the committee might have a bit of time to look at global arms, and so on, but that will be just one study. Because of the allegations of abuse in our global arms exports, we need a committee that looks at it as just one issue.

With respect to the workers in the member's home riding, the New Democrats are always going to stand with workers. However, I reckon that if he were to ask the workers if they would be comfortable with their exports going to a regime that is responsible for human rights abuses, they would say no. We are proud to support those workers and the work they do, but we need an oversight committee to ensure our exports are going to proper countries. I think the workers in his riding would agree. I hope he has the chance to ask them that.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Mr. Speaker, it is fascinating to hear my friend from the Liberal side suggest that a study on sanctions is the same as a study on the arms trade. They are perhaps related, but very distinct items.

I want to ask my friend in the NDP about this issue of our relationship with Saudi Arabia. It is an extremely complex relationship. We should very much call out the very serious human rights abuses there at the same time as we recognize some of the strategic considerations insofar as there is a growing threat from Iran to international peace and security everywhere, especially in the Middle East. Saudi Arabia is sort of a counterweight in many ways to Iran.

There is a tension there between this long-term concern about containing the influence of Iran in the region, but also recognizing some of the real issues of human rights in Saudi Arabia. Where does that leave us in how we should relate to Saudi Arabia? I am curious about the member's thoughts on that.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I appreciate his question because it really goes to the crux of the issue. Saudi Arabia and Iran are two opposite ends of the pole in the Middle East and both are competing for influence. However, we should not forget that while Iran is trying to further its influence in the region, Saudi Arabia is too, through some means of which ordinary Canadians may not be so proud.

With the ongoing conflicts in the Middle East and the fact that there are so many, I do not see the rationale behind exporting more arms to a country that is just going to keep on inflaming the fights going on there. At the very least, there should be an oversight committee to study these issues in-depth and focus with laser-like precision on our exports to Saudi Arabia. If Canadians saw the witness testimony on that, a lot of them would be quite illuminated as to how our country is really doing business in the region.

[Peter Van Loan, Conservative, York—Simcoe, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I will be dividing my time with the member for Calgary Shepard.

Every morning from coast to coast Canadians get up and go to work and more than 63,000 of those Canadians are employed in high-value jobs in the defence industry. It is an industry that has historically served a great purpose in helping keep the world safe.

In World War II, for example, Canada was known as the arsenal of democracy. Canadian defence industry production was pivotal in furthering the war effort. It also amounted to almost $10 billion in the production of necessary miliary arms and equipment, but the price tag is not really important. It is the role that it played. During that time the Canadian industry was able to build more than 800,000 military transport vehicles; 50,000 tanks; 400,000 field, naval, and anti-aircraft guns; 1.7 million small arms; and much more. More importantly, those defence industries kept the world safe, safe from a tyranny of a type never before seen.

My friends in the NDP think that those engaged in the defence industry are engaged in some kind of dirty business. They actually do believe it. They talk about dirty arms traders. They do not want to see any arms trade at all. They regard it as a dirty and shameful business. I respectfully disagree.

I believe it is a noble effort, and in World War II we saw that. We saw those industries rise to meet the existential challenge that our civilization faced. Notably, there were other surprising effects. Women by the tens of thousands entered the workforce through these very defence industries. The social change that resulted despite the unfortunate nature of the impetus for it was an advancement for women and for society. The products produced by those women in the Canadian defence industries helped to keep Canada safe and helped to protect the world, helped to make the world free in a very dangerous context.

While the need for military defence was clearly greater at that time, today our defence industry continues to serve a similar and important role. It also performs an important role in both our economy and the global economy.

The continued existence of the defence industry means that we are doing our part to keep our country safe and secure and should be able to, God forbid it be needed, ramp up that production to meet any future requirements in what is an uncertain and increasingly dangerous global environment. It will ensure that Canada can rise to the occasion to do its part. Should we wipe out that industry, which I would argue is one of the logical outcomes of the motion before us today, Canada would not be able to do its part. Therefore, no, I do not believe as many in the NDP do that defence industries are a dirty business. They are doing important and in fact patriotic work.

The companies that make up the Canadian defence industrial base and the types of jobs they offer are the kinds of jobs Canada needs, the types of jobs governments should value in today's highly competitive global economy. The salaries of Canadians in this industry are 60% higher than the average Canadian industrial wage. The industry contributes $6.7 billion annually to Canada's gross domestic product. This industry serves as a vital and innovative part of Canadian manufacturing. In fact over time we know that some of the greatest innovations in technology, some of the greatest advances, have come out of military imperatives and defence development.

Out of the $10 billion in revenue the defence industry generates annually, approximately 60% of the industry's total revenue is generated through exports. The majority of the industry depends on exports. Without those exports, as I said, the industry simply would not be able to survive.

Typically, national governments are the purchasers of Canadian defence equipment and the unique conditions under which this industry operates results in a circumstance where we have to have confidential agreements with other governments. It is a government-to-government relationship in the end. Reflecting the special nature of those sales for both sides is the fact that purchases are generally made through the Canada Commercial Corporation. It is a crown corporation and this by definition shows that governments regard these purchases as important strategic and tactical decisions.

In those circumstances I pose some common-sense questions.

If a government is looking to purchase important assets for the defence of its country, how much would it want to expose that to open scrutiny its potential enemies could see? Would it want them to know and understand the technical capabilities of the equipment it was acquiring? If it were seeking the customization of equipment to meet its particular needs, would it want those details potentially exposed to its enemies? I can assure the House that in most cases customization is exactly what the customers are looking for to meet their particular national needs.

What is the common-sense answer to these questions? It is pretty clear. If we create a process, as the motion seeks to do, that risks the national security of the potential customers, they will simply go elsewhere.

The agreement for the light armoured vehicles, LAVs, from General Dynamics in London will bring $15 billion into the Canadian economy over the next 14 years and will help employ 3,000 people in London, Ontario. However, the thing to consider above all else is that if they did not buy those LAVs from us, they would simply have gone somewhere else. There were others offering to sell those LAVs. There is a lot of competition out there from suppliers who do not have a process that jeopardizes the security interests of prospective purchasers. More than 10,000 are currently employed in the sector in London, Ontario, and any measures that could drive down exports would be devastating for the local economy and for that entire industrial cluster.

The international marketplace, as I said, is a highly competitive environment for military sales. Winning contracts requires a first-rate product, and it also requires a certainty of process. This is especially so when one considers the fashion in which so many governments support foreign military sales.

If one were to then insert a parliamentary committee into that process, it would simply put an end to most exports for exactly the reasons I said. Countries would simply not be interested in subjecting themselves to the security and tactical risks involved. We know that in the case of the LAVs sale, for example, it is exactly the capabilities of those vehicles that have been raised as one of the objections. People want to know what those capabilities are. The customers naturally do not want to expose capabilities to enemies because that would make them vulnerable.

If we then put that into a public context, into a public committee where those things were aired, it would not only negatively affect the industry's ability to negotiate deals with other governments, it would in fact wipe it out. It would lead to the loss of thousands of jobs.

What New Democrats are proposing today in the motion will undoubtedly not just have a negative impact on Canada's economy and put the defence industry at risk, it would likely wipe out the bulk of that defence industry. That does not bother them because of course they know this will happen. It does not bother them at all because that has actually been the overall goal of the NDP, to shut down the defence industry.

New Democrats regard it as a shameful and a dirty business. They have talked about the arms trade sneeringly, disregarding, I think, its noble history and the noble objectives of it in the future and currently. Seeing the end of that very industry would be a satisfactory outcome to many in the NDP. That is the real purpose of this committee, shutting down that industry, which they regard as an undesirable one they do not want to see in Canada.

New Democrats know that industry relies on those confidentiality agreements. They know the necessity of tactical information being kept secure, of capabilities of equipment being kept secure, and they know that if we then exposed all those things in a parliamentary committee, it would undermine that confidentiality.

I spent some time as trade minister and had the opportunity to work in that capacity with our Canadian Commercial Corporation. I know that we have the utmost controls and protections, both at that level and of course at the export control level. Governments have that ability to determine whether a particular sale makes sense, is in Canada's interests, has regard for human rights, has regard for our national security.

All those things we can protect, but the fashion in which one seeks to protect it is important. If we do it through a process that guarantees the loss of all those sales, that puts at risk the national security of our customers, we know we will have no customers.

That means that once again, another NDP policy initiative, if it were embraced, would result in what happens with most NDP policy initiatives. First, when New Democrats see an industry that is successful, they say regulate it. This is an example. Once it is regulated to death, if it is still going, they say they have to tax it some more. If it is still going after that, once they finally tax it and regulate it enough to start getting it on its knees, then they say it is time to subsidize it. We can expect that in the future if we do this.

I say let those industries continue their good work. They do good work for Canada and for our national security. We should not cripple them and handicap them and cause the tens of thousands who work in very good jobs in the sector to lose those jobs.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons]

Mr. Speaker, it is not that often I stand in my place following the member to extend a compliment, but I do appreciate how the member across the way has highlighted what needs to be emphasized. We do have a very strong defence industry in our country. We have a process already today that will allow for the type of study that the New Democrats are suggesting in the motion we are debating today. We call it the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Development.

Within that grouping of members of Parliament, they have the ability to look at a wide variety of different issues, including this one. I understand that one of the things they are looking at is the subject of how Canada can continue to play a strong role. We need to emphasize, and I loved the way the member made reference to previous involvements, that our defence industry has provided a sense of strong national security, not only in Canada but around the world in a very tangible way.

Does the member not agree that the current standing committee is more than able to deal with the issue that is being proposed?

[Peter Van Loan, Conservative, York—Simcoe, ON]

Mr. Speaker, what I would not agree with is that the standing committee as it currently is would be the same. I think the proposed committee would be dramatically different and that is the risk with it. It would tell prospective purchasers that they would be subject to a level of public scrutiny of what they are doing, of what the technical capabilities are of their equipment, and that is going to make them vulnerable. That is a signal we do not want to send. That is a signal that would cause us to lose all those sales.

As I said, I think New Democrats genuinely want to not see a defence industry in Canada, or they might argue that we do not need to engage in exports, that exports of arms are a bad thing, and we should just serve our own market. It is a small country. When I listed those statistics, those sales of manufactured goods in World War II, when I was talking about 800,000 transport vehicles, 50,000 tanks, that supported a strong defence industry. We are not going to be building that in Canada now for Canada's needs. Therefore, if we are only building for Canada's needs, we are not going to be building enough to sustain an industry. Some 60% of our stuff goes into export, so the motion, which would kill the export sector, would kill the entire industry in Canada and kill tens of thousands of jobs.

[Brigitte Sansoucy, NDP, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the purpose of this motion is not to call into question the fact that Canadian businesses manufacture military equipment for the Canadian army and our NATO allies. It is great if exports have increased.

The problem arises when we export such equipment to countries with poor human rights records. That is why this motion is relevant. That is what the motion is about and I do not think there is any point in veering off topic.

This committee is important because this issue currently falls under the mandate of a number of committees. We need to have one committee devoted exclusively to this issue.

My question for the member is simple: does he not agree that a lot of the work we do as MPs involves examining the government's activities, including Canadian arms sales?

[Peter Van Loan, Conservative, York—Simcoe, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I would simply put it in another fashion. The member started by speaking of the intention of this motion and this committee. However, one of the things that I think every one of us should do here, as policy makers, is ask, “What are the potential unintended effects?” We all know what the intention is, but what are the potential unintended effects?

One of the things I used to teach my students, when I was teaching at U of T, was that every time they make a policy decision, they need to think about the unintended effects. We all know what we want to do, but what are the things we are going to cause to happen that we do not want to do? If we tax windows, do we end up with houses with really tiny windows? That is what happened in Great Britain many years ago.

We have to think about those unintended effects.

Regardless of the good intentions that might be behind the motion, the actual effects would be to kill that industry by exposing an unacceptable level of risk to the national security of our customers. They simply will not come anymore. They will say, “If that's part of the process, thank you very much. We'll buy our armoured vehicles from France. See you later”.

We would not be any further ahead with human rights. We would not be any further ahead with engaging the countries. We would not be able to apply our own tests because we would not even be in the game and, in the process, we would have lost tens of thousands of jobs and billions of dollars of economic productivity, and families across this country would be much worse off.

[Tom Kmiec, Conservative, Calgary Shepard, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank the member for York—Simcoe for making a great contribution to the debate, talking about the arms trade business, its contribution to Canada, and the jobs it has created. While that is important, I personally want to speak to the details in the motion, from a more procedural perspective.

I have been sitting here all morning and into the afternoon listening to the Liberals and New Democrats talk about the arms business, arms trade, the Arms Trade Treaty, human rights, completely avoiding talking about the contents of the motion, which is whether the House should have another standing committee to discuss a specific issue that was actually already dealt with by the foreign affairs committee. To their everlasting shame, the Liberals voted down the creation of a subcommittee to deal with this issue, so we would not have to be here for a day debating whether a full standing committee should be established to deal with it.

As I have done before, I want to use a Yiddish proverb. It is good to poke the fire with somebody else's hands. The New Democrats are poking the Liberal fire on this. Do we need another standing committee to deal with the Arms Trade Treaty and arms trade? I do not think so. I respect the New Democrats' position. I respect the fact that they believe this is an important enough issue that it is worthy of having its own standing committee of the House to deal with it. I disagree with that intent, so I will be voting against the motion.

Procedurally speaking, having another committee and requiring extra work to be put into it in terms of staff, analysts, translators, clerks, and all the people required to make a committee function, I simply do not believe is necessary. I think it could have been dealt with very easily by a subcommittee that could have started the study immediately. I have heard Liberals saying that eventually, some day in the future perhaps, they will look at this. The committee intends to look at it at some point, so why not start now with a subcommittee?

I have asked different Liberal members several times—by happenstance, one of them was actually a sitting member of the foreign affairs committee—why they voted against it. I did not get an answer, unfortunately. The policy question of whether the arms trade business is going on and what exactly we are doing is all worthy of discussion at the committee level. To address whether there would be sufficient confidentiality, sufficient secrecy, they could hold all of the meetings in camera. The committee could hold them behind closed doors if there is an issue of confidentiality. We have the means to keep information secret.

The careful stewardship of the financial resources of Parliament is important because it is paid for by the taxpayers of Canada. I personally do not believe we need another standing committee. I believe we already have too many standing committees doing work and having debates that could take place in the chamber instead of at the committee level.

Again, it is a question of workload, as I said, taxing the analysts, the clerks, the translators, the scheduling involved, the different members who would be assigned to it. Perhaps they would even start travelling. I know the Liberals are very fond of committees travelling to different parts of the country to see, on the ground, exactly what is going on and maybe a little extra.