House of Commons Hansard #146 of the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was energy.

Topics

Opposition Motion—Impact of Carbon TaxesBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

3:20 p.m.

Conservative

Pierre Poilievre Conservative Carleton, ON

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. Today we are debating my motion, which relates precisely to the release of documents in the possession of the Department of Finance about the cost per household of this new federally mandated tax. The member has not mentioned those documents once in his entire speech. Under the standing orders, members are told that they must keep their remarks relevant to the subject at hand. The member is talking about all kinds of interesting policy conversations on issues related to the environment and other matters, which may or may not be of interest to his constituents. However, this motion is about documents that clearly cost out the impact on household budgets of the tax, and the member has not mentioned a single one of those documents or explained why they cannot be released.

I ask that you, Mr. Speaker, return the member to the subject that is being debated in this motion.

Opposition Motion—Impact of Carbon TaxesBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

3:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Speaker Liberal Geoff Regan

I thank the hon. member for Carleton for his point of order. As he knows, members of this House are given wide leeway in relation to relevance. Of course I encourage all members, including the hon. Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Environment, to generally make their comments relevant to the debate in question, but as I have said, the members are given wide leeway.

The hon. parliamentary secretary.

Opposition Motion—Impact of Carbon TaxesBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

3:20 p.m.

Liberal

Jonathan Wilkinson Liberal North Vancouver, BC

Mr. Speaker, to conclude, our children and our grandchildren should not have to foot the bill and live with all of the other challenging consequences of inaction. They deserve to inherit a clean, healthy planet. This is something that this government is working hard every day to deliver.

Opposition Motion—Impact of Carbon TaxesBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

3:20 p.m.

Conservative

Pierre Poilievre Conservative Carleton, ON

Mr. Speaker, as I said in the point of order earlier, the debate today is about whether the government should release the cost to Canadian families of this new tax. I have obtained a Finance Canada document, which warns of a cascading effect on prices that consumers, families, and businesses will pay as a result of this new tax. Those documents make reference to data tables in which those costs are laid out for families, broken down by income quintile: the very poor, the poor, the middle class, the upper middle class, and the very rich. The data will indicate the distributional impacts of the tax; that is to say, whether it widens the gap between rich and poor. The data will also tell us what harm the tax will do to those with the least. The government says it wants to help the middle class and those working to join it. This data would tell us whether the Liberals are keeping that promise.

I respect that the member and others support putting a price, as they call it, or a tax on carbon. That is their right. We are not debating that today. We are debating whether Canadians should be aware of what those costs are to them, so that we can judge whether this policy is a revenue generator for government or actually an environmental policy, as the government claims.

My question for the hon. member is this. What will be the additional cost of the carbon tax to a family in the lowest income quintile?

Opposition Motion—Impact of Carbon TaxesBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

3:25 p.m.

Liberal

Jonathan Wilkinson Liberal North Vancouver, BC

Mr. Speaker, I would first say that research on carbon pricing has been done for decades. It is clearly the most efficient and effective way to reduce emissions and grow the economy. Many companies, economists, and others in Canada have been very public in their support of a market mechanism to address carbon pollution.

Extensive modelling has been done by universities, think tanks, provincial governments, and the federal government, and they all point to the same conclusion: the best way to reduce pollution is to put a price on it and put any revenues back in the pockets of taxpayers. If we look at how the whole approach to carbon pricing is structured in Canada, we see it is the provinces that actually make the determination of both how the system is structured and how the revenues resulting from that will be used.

The member is certainly free to look at how British Columbia, for example, which has had a carbon price since 2008, has structured it and how it has used those revenues. The bulk of those revenues, if he would look, are used to lower income taxes for the lowest-income people in British Columbia, to provide a tax credit, a rebate, for the lowest-income folks in British Columbia, and to provide a rural and northern rebate for folks in British Columbia.

There is a lot of evidence and a lot of opportunities for the member to have a look at how the whole issue of the approach is utilized. I would also say that, if he is interested in economic analyses associated with carbon pricing, he should look at the Environment Canada website, where it is posted as part of a working group report that was done. I suggest that would perhaps be more relevant than working from a document that was prepared under the previous government.

Opposition Motion—Impact of Carbon TaxesBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

3:25 p.m.

Conservative

Robert Sopuck Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB

Madam Speaker, I find it completely hilarious when the environment minister and the parliamentary secretary use the phrase “carbon pollution”. We are talking about carbon dioxide. Carbon dioxide is the stuff of life.

I have a question for the parliamentary secretary. Has he ever heard of the process called photosynthesis, does he understand how important photosynthesis is, and can he describe the photosynthetic process? Carbon dioxide is not a pollutant. Volatile organic compounds that contain carbon are carbon pollution; carbon dioxide is not.

Opposition Motion—Impact of Carbon TaxesBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

3:25 p.m.

Liberal

Jonathan Wilkinson Liberal North Vancouver, BC

Madam Speaker, it is fair to say that nobody would question that photosynthesis is a process and that things like trees and plants can actually act as carbon sinks, but I would suggest the member read some of the science on climate change, certainly on the issue of CO2. It is a pollutant, it is causing global warming, and the vast majority of the scientific community agrees with that.

Opposition Motion—Impact of Carbon TaxesBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

3:25 p.m.

Winnipeg North Manitoba

Liberal

Kevin Lamoureux LiberalParliamentary Secretary to the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons

Madam Speaker, it is always a pleasure to rise and add some thoughts to the debate, whether it be on an opposition day motion, on government business legislation, or whatever the case may be.

Today, we are witnessing an interesting debate. I listened to the question posed by the introducer of the opposition day motion. He seems to have this fixation about whether or not this is about a price on carbon, a cash grab, or possibly an environmental policy. It is a fair question to ask, but I am surprised the member does not realize what the answer is. Maybe it is because the modern-day Conservative Party's perspective, which has lost touch with what I believe Canadians are talking about, which is the importance of the environment and responsible policies, is somewhat out of tune with reality on this very important issue.

Shortly after the last federal election, members will recall the meeting that took place in Paris. World leaders, individuals, stakeholder groups, young people, and old people alike around the globe who were concerned about the future of our world and our environment wanted to see strong leadership coming out of Paris to provide some hope for the future. In good part, that is really what this price on carbon is about, future generations. We all have a role and responsibility to ensure that our policies are good, are sound, and are moving us in a forward direction. We have seen that with this government. I make reference to the Paris agreement. Our Prime Minister was there and demonstrated incredible leadership on the idea that it is time we act. Shortly thereafter, the provinces came together and ultimately agreed that a price on carbon was a great foot forward. We need to recognize that these provincial governments that came onside were of all political stripes: Liberal, New Democrat, and Progressive Conservative. We saw the consultations that took place and what I believe is so very important coming from Ottawa, strong national leadership.

We now hear members saying that this is Ottawa trying to get more money. There is no truth to that argument whatsoever. Ottawa does not generate money by putting a price on carbon because the agreement that is there is clear that it is the provinces that will be receiving the revenues that are generated by it. Therefore, when the mover of the motion talked a few minutes ago about whether this was about cash or sound environmental policy, that should answer his question, because this Prime Minister and this government are not receiving any federal revenues as a direct result of the price on carbon. We understand the importance of having that balance. We saw that not long ago with respect to some of the decisions that were being made on the price on carbon and the growth that will come as a direct result of approving some of the pipeline requests that were in the hopper.

We understand the importance of sustainable development, the idea of reducing emissions while at the same time allowing the economy to grow. That is something this government takes very seriously, which is why the Prime Minister was in Paris with world leaders and others to talk about achieving an agreement. That is why we saw the Prime Minister, the provinces, and the premiers come together to agree almost unanimously that a price on carbon is the way to go. I understand there was one that opted out.

The science is there. The facts are there. Many studies have been done. The best way to positively deal with this particular issue is to implement a price on carbon.

Why is it important to have strong national leadership on this issue? It goes beyond the few comments I have already put on the record. It is important to recognize that a national plan will ensure that there is more equality and equity among the different jurisdictions that make up our great country.

There is an industry I am a very big fan of. I rarely hear it being talked about here, but it is a very important industry. It is our taxi industry. A number of years ago, when I was an MLA, there was an incentive by the government of the day to get the taxi industry to look at hybrid cars. There seemed to be a focus on the Toyota Prius

Members could fly into Winnipeg and see the amazing taxi fleet we have in Winnipeg. They will probably find that 80%, or possibly even more than that, is made up of the Toyota Prius. The government provided a little incentive, but it was the industry as a whole that recognized that it would like to do more for the environment. It does not have to be just the government that stirs the pot to try to get people and companies thinking about our environment. In fact, there are many clean technology companies. It is an area of tremendous growth. If we look at it from a worldwide perspective, it is about industries thinking green. It is about things that can have a positive impact on our environment and still promote economic activity. It is expanding at a tremendous rate.

There is an advantage for those provinces that work with the industries in their jurisdictions. Already 80% of Canadians have some form of price on carbon in place, or it is going to be in place. British Columbia has had it in some form for a number of years. It has actually done quite well in comparison to other provinces in Canada.

It is important that we recognize that contrary to what the Conservative Party seems to believe, we do not have to fear company losses and job losses in the numbers they are referring to. There will in fact be job creation in many other areas, which will ultimately make a positive difference and build Canada's middle class.

Let me conclude by saying that when we see other levels of government, of all political stripes, agreeing that a price on carbon is the way to go, why do we see an opposition party that is so much opposed to it? I do not quite understand that.

Opposition Motion—Impact of Carbon TaxesBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

Michelle Rempel Conservative Calgary Nose Hill, AB

Madam Speaker, given that my colleague opposite extolled the virtues of this tax in terms of a public policy option, I am wondering, if he is so sure of its efficacy, if he could tell the House what price elasticity assumptions the government used in modelling its carbon tax as it relates to carbon consumption in western Canada.

Opposition Motion—Impact of Carbon TaxesBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Kevin Lamoureux Liberal Winnipeg North, MB

Madam Speaker, we learn about elasticity in economics 101 or in second year. Maybe the member is trying to trick me, but what I would suggest to the member is that at the end of the day, we have governments, even the Alberta government, that recognize the value of a price on carbon.

There are many able individuals who are very much aware of the economics of the price on carbon, and it is no doubt overwhelmingly positive for Canada's environment and our economy to continue to move forward. It is only some Conservative members of Parliament who seem to think otherwise.

Opposition Motion—Impact of Carbon TaxesBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

3:40 p.m.

NDP

Alexandre Boulerice NDP Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC

Madam Speaker, I thank my colleague for his speech.

What always really surprises me is how well the Liberals illustrate the expression “all talk, no action”. I will explain. They promised change and spoke a great deal about fighting global warming. They say they will do things differently. However, they are using the same plan and the same targets as the Conservatives, and the Liberals' plan will not even come close to meeting the targets. This is what most environmentalists and ecologists are saying. Even well known tax expert Marwah Rizqy is saying that this carbon tax will not help meet the weak Conservative targets that the Liberals are going to adopt.

Opposition Motion—Impact of Carbon TaxesBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Kevin Lamoureux Liberal Winnipeg North, MB

Madam Speaker, I disagree with the member. He says that there is no difference between the Conservatives and the Liberals. The Conservative Party is dead against a price on carbon. That is something that is significantly different.

For New Democrats, we can never do enough on any policy. They would spend billions and billions more, yet they would still have a balanced budget.

There is no pleasing New Democrats on issues such as this. Having said that, we appreciate the fact that they are supporting a price on carbon.

Opposition Motion—Impact of Carbon TaxesBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Colin Carrie Conservative Oshawa, ON

Madam Speaker, I would like to enlighten my colleague a little bit. If he would go to his computer and type in “cap and trade, European scandal”, he will see why there are concerns about it. Actually, over 90% of the carbon trading in Europe may be contributing to fraud in that system. He says that everybody around the world is doing this. He should look to see the results of that in Europe.

He brought up something really important about government policy. He brought up the Prius. I am from Oshawa. We actually build cars in Canada and create Canadian jobs. He brought up an example of how government policy can drive jobs out of the country, because the Prius was at that time built in Japan.

I am worried about jobs in Canada. I am worried about our competitiveness. I am worried that right now Donald Trump says he will drop corporate taxes in the United States. What are we seeing on this side of the table? We are seeing a Liberal government that is raising taxes. There is a new carbon tax and taxes on business. We are talking about the highest electrical rates in North America in Ontario and adding a carbon tax to it, the CPP changes, EI, and the cancellation of the reduction for businesses. It is about simple competitiveness.

Could the member please explain, with his economics 101 and how he tries to condescend to us, how that will work for competitiveness for Canadian automotive builders?

Opposition Motion—Impact of Carbon TaxesBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Kevin Lamoureux Liberal Winnipeg North, MB

Madam Speaker, I am disappointed that the member underestimates the potential of our Canadian automobile associations and manufacturers. They do not take a back seat to anyone. We have seen that in the expansion we witnessed first-hand in a number of plans in the last year. I am a little bit more optimistic about their ability to compete. I can assure the member that they will continue to do so.

By having these expanded trade agreements, whether it is CETA, with the Ukraine, or other potential agreements down the pipe, I think those are all good stories. With regard to the price on carbon, the member needs to reflect that it is only some of the Conservatives within this House—

Opposition Motion—Impact of Carbon TaxesBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

3:40 p.m.

NDP

The Assistant Deputy Speaker NDP Carol Hughes

Sorry, the member's time is up. Maybe through a question the parliamentary secretary will be able to bring some of those issues back up.

Resuming debate, the hon. member for Calgary Nose Hill.

Opposition Motion—Impact of Carbon TaxesBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Michelle Rempel Conservative Calgary Nose Hill, AB

Madam Speaker, in government, we have to ask ourselves what we manage to. If one is in the private sector, what one is managing to is usually as simple as profit and loss. In social entrepreneurship, the conversation around what one is managing to might be profit and loss in the context of delivering a socially acceptable good.

In government, when we put policy forward, we should always be asking ourselves what we are managing to. When it comes to the issue of Canada's approach to dealing with climate change, the current government has said that it is managing to the following: our 2030 target for reducing emissions 30% below 2005 levels.

Madam Speaker, I will be splitting my time with the member for Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa.

The Liberal government has articulated that this is the goal, that this is where we are going. How do we decide if what we are managing to is something that, first, we should be managing to, and second, whether whatever public policy instrument we put in place to get there is actually working? To me, this is very simple economics. It is an opportunity-cost calculation. For those in the House who are not familiar with it, opportunity cost is the loss of potential gain from other alternatives when one alternative is chosen. It could also be described as a benefit we could have received but gave up to take another course of action. It is the value of the next-best alternative. Simply put, if we are trying to calculate the opportunity cost of something, we are asking this: what is the value of what we are sacrificing over what we are gaining?

By saying that a price on carbon, the price the government has articulated, is the correct public policy option, the government has an obligation to Canadians to provide information such that they can make that opportunity-cost calculation and then evaluate the government accordingly.

For a government that has said that transparency is something its members value and it wants Canadians to have information, there is a woeful lack of information for Canadians to make the cost calculation, on both sides of the equation. My concern is that if we are trying to calculate what Canadians are sacrificing to achieve this policy end, we have to have the information that is in the reports that are the subject of this motion today.

As I believe the Department of Finance actually said, a federally mandated carbon tax will cause “higher prices to cascade through the economy in the form of higher prices”. Canadian families should have that data, the estimates that show how much a price on carbon will actually increase their cost of living versus whether they think this emissions target that has been articulated by the government is worth sacrificing that cost for. What is more important is even more complicated than that. There are no data. Not only do we not know that, because the government is trying to hide the true costs to Canadians, we also do not know if this policy is actually going to work.

Why did I ask the parliamentary secretary earlier about the price elasticity assumptions, to which he quite hilariously asked if I was trying to trick him? I have never had that said to me in the House of Commons before, but wonders never cease. The reason I asked that question is that we actually need to understand how demand will be influenced by the price on carbon, this tax, to see if demand will actually decrease over time.

For those who are not aware of what price elasticity is, I put this forward to show the Canadian public that I was not trying to trick the member opposite. Price elasticity of demand is the measure of the relationship between a change in the quantity demanded of a particular good and a change in its price. Price elasticity of demand is a term in economics often used when discussing price sensitivity. The formula for calculating price elasticity of demand is price elasticity of demand equals the percentage change in quantity demanded over the percentage change in price.

If Canadians are to evaluate the government on this policy at all, first they need to ask whether this emissions target is something they are willing to accept.

How do they get to that decision? How much is it going to cost them? Is it actually going to work? Is demand actually going to decrease as a result of this price?

Right now, every single speech that has happened here in the House from the government side has a lot of rhetoric. I notice that the speech given before me was, “There are going to be jobs created. Our demand is going to decrease. This is going to be the greatest thing since sliced bread.” It sounds like a snake oil salesman to me. It smells like a bill of goods. It sounds like something is hiding.

Now, if the government wants to refute this principle, wants to say it is not hiding anything and in fact this is an opportunity cost calculation that Canadians want to make, why would it not release these documents?

For those who are listening today, what we are debating is the fact that the Department of Finance actually put together a report on how much it would cost Canadians. How much is this carbon tax and its cascading effect going to cost? We know that the increase in price on a raw good that is produced by a manufacturer is going to be carried down and exponentially increase down to the consumer. The department calculated this. The documents are called “Impact of a carbon price on households’ consumption costs across the income distribution” and “Estimating economic impacts from various mitigation options for greenhouse gas emissions”. These are fancy, complicated titles for saying, “This is how much this policy instrument is going to cost you”.

If the government really was open and transparent, and if the government was confident that this is the policy instrument that Canadians should be saying that, yes, they support, why would it not put those documents out there, outside of the fact that it has something to hide?

We have seen reports recently, and British Columbia's much-touted carbon tax is something that many of you are familiar with. The government, the parliamentary secretary to the minister of the environment, says, “Oh, British Columbia, fantastic, and it's working so well in its supposed revenue neutrality”. However, according to data from reports that have been released, according to the government's own projections, the carbon tax will result in a cumulative $865-million tax increase on British Columbians between 2013-14 and 2018-19. This is because the revenue neutrality of that carbon tax and the tax reductions in other areas have not kept up with the cost increases caused by this carbon tax.

Again, why is this information in this document so important to Canadians? It is because dollars to donuts, it shows that this costs Canadians a lot of money. However, in some ways, we really do not need these documents. The proof is in the pudding, because when somebody is going to fill up their car right now, certainly for myself in Alberta, I know that I am paying more for the same product than I did a few months ago. Has my demand for that product decreased? No. Why? It is because it is cold, and because we should be talking about public transit infrastructure.

In fact, in my riding in Calgary, the government has delayed investments into public transit projects such as the Green Line in Calgary. There are so many other public policy options that could be looked at, but in terms of being able to do that opportunity cost calculation, in terms of being able to say, “What are you sacrificing over what are you gaining”, Canadians need this information. The government has already produced it. It has looked at it. My issue is that the government has come up with a policy in spite of facts showing that this opportunity cost calculation is not in the best interests of Canadians.

Therefore, if the government were truly transparent, if it actually cared about the environment rather than just taking money out of the pockets of Canadians, it would do two things: it would release these documents and let Canadians decide about its competency based on putting forward a policy instrument without showing Canadians that data; and second, the government would release the price elasticity assumptions that it used when modelling this carbon tax.

I do not think the Liberals have either. I know they do not have either, and because of that, because this is a poor public policy instrument, all of us on this side of the House in the Conservative Party will continue to stand up for middle-class families, workers, their jobs, and their right to prosperity.

Opposition Motion—Impact of Carbon TaxesBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

David McGuinty Liberal Ottawa South, ON

Madam Speaker, I want to follow up with a couple of pointed questions. Maybe the member could help Canadians understand the position of the Conservative opposition.

In the previous government, Mr. Harper as prime minister, announced a cap-and-trade program for the country. He unilaterally decried a price on carbon for Canadians. He went to London and gave a massive speech, which he called the energy superpower speech for Canada. If I recall, he announced that by 2019, carbon would be priced at $160 a tonne. That was a unilateral decree from a central federal government. That is not one that builds in the flexibility of our plan, where provinces are able to find the mechanism that is preferable for themselves, including those that already have a price on carbon, and then deciding themselves what they would like to do with those revenues. That is the kicker here. We are giving the provinces the authority to decide what they want to do with those revenues. If Saskatchewan wants to reduce personal income taxes, it can do so.

Could the member produce the same analysis she calls for now, the same analysis that she arguably would have had done in the previous government, with all the details—

Opposition Motion—Impact of Carbon TaxesBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

3:55 p.m.

NDP

The Assistant Deputy Speaker NDP Carol Hughes

The hon. member for Calgary Nose Hill.

Opposition Motion—Impact of Carbon TaxesBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

February 23rd, 2017 / 3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Michelle Rempel Conservative Calgary Nose Hill, AB

Yes, Madam Speaker. It is in this document entitled “Canada's Emissions Trends”, a 2014 report from Environment Canada. If my colleague opposite flips to page 14, under Table 2 he will see that the per capita emissions that Canada saw in 2005, which were at 22.8 are projected under the plan of our government to be reduced to 19.7 in 2020. In 2012, they were reduced to 20.1, and this was because our government took a pragmatic approach.

The member quoted the former prime minister, who stood up in the House and said it would be crazy for Canada to price itself out of competitivity with the United States.

My colleague stood up and talked about how the United States has signalled to the world that it wants to reduce regulatory burden and will reduce taxes on job-creating companies, ergo, creating an investment climate where we will see capital flight to the U.S. because of that.

The point is that under our previous government we saw the decoupling of greenhouse gas emissions and economic growth. The Liberal government has no track record on being able to do that. It cannot even produce the data to show that this policy is going to work.

To my colleague's question, yes, I certainly can produce the data. I referenced the document and I encourage him to read it.

Opposition Motion—Impact of Carbon TaxesBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

3:55 p.m.

NDP

Richard Cannings NDP South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC

Madam Speaker, the member mentioned other things that the government could be doing and one of those of course is the ecoENERGY retrofit program, which was brought in by the former Conservative government. It ran for a number of years and was suddenly cancelled just when it was getting popular. It did a lot for families across this country to retrofit their homes, to cut their energy bills, and to reduce greenhouse gases at the same time.

I just wondered if she would like to comment on whether she and her party might be willing to get behind that program again.

Opposition Motion—Impact of Carbon TaxesBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Michelle Rempel Conservative Calgary Nose Hill, AB

Madam Speaker, I wrote an opinion piece in the National Post which was published on August 9, 2016. I put forward some suggestions around what Canada could be doing to have a more comprehensive and more common-sense approach to reducing greenhouse gas emissions. I said that:

...presenting a price on carbon as a painless, standalone cure-all is a fallacy in the cold, natural resource-intensive economy that is Canada. Our GHG policy will likely need to consider phased-in, sector-specific regulations (the current federal government isn’t talking about repealing regulations put in place by the previous government), developing and adopting new, more efficient technologies and other approaches. It will also require Canadians to make a financial sacrifice, and Canadians should have a say on whether or not they want to make it. The cost of GHG policy shouldn’t be hidden in bafflegab line items on their electricity bills, in order to avoid political scrutiny.

It also certainly should not be hidden in reports that the government refuses to release.

Opposition Motion—Impact of Carbon TaxesBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Robert Sopuck Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB

Madam Speaker, it is an honour to follow my colleague from Calgary Nose Hill.

As someone who has had a career in environmental policy and environmental science for more years than I care to admit, I have come across a philosophy that I follow. Every environmental policy, program, and dollar spent needs to generate real and measurable environmental results. For example, in 1989, the Mulroney government introduced the pulp and paper effluent regulations that required every single paper mill to put a waste-water treatment plant in. That generated a real result. Scrubbers were mandated on smokestacks, which resulted in the Sudbury miracle, a landscape that was restored.

It is very important in environmental policy and environmental science to do the math. The results must be measurable and belief alone has no place in proper environmental policy-making. I noticed that my colleague from Calgary Nose Hill presented verifiable results. She read from scientific and economic documents, whereas the member for Winnipeg North and parliamentary secretary went on and on, with no math or citations whatsoever.

In terms of the Conservative government, I was very proud of its environmental record. Sulphur dioxide went down and nitrous oxide went down. The UN, in 2010, said Canada had the second-best water quality in the industrialized world. Our natural area conservation plan conserved 800,000 hectares of high-quality biodiversity habitat. Our recreational fisheries conservation partnerships program, in one year alone, restored 2,000 linear kilometres of fisheries habitat. That is a real and measurable environmental result.

When we do that math, and I know math is hard for both opposition parties, Canada has 1.6% of global emissions, and this is not my opinion. Quite frankly, not much we do will make any difference to the global climate, and it is simply math. The math also says, if we look at what China is doing right now, it is building two coal-fired projects every single week.

How does the carbon tax, or, more correctly, a carbon dioxide tax measure up? Let us first ask the question: What is CO2? CO2 is an odourless, tasteless gas that makes up 0.04% of our atmosphere. When I brought up the issue of photosynthesis in my question before, I noticed both opposition parties laughed. I find that quite surprising. I guess they do not understand what photosynthesis is. It is only the most important equation on earth. The first molecule in the photosynthetic equation from which most life flows is carbon dioxide.

To school my colleagues opposite in biochemistry, because my colleagues on this side of the House certainly know this, it is carbon dioxide plus water through the miracle of photosynthesis that creates sugar and oxygen. That is a simplified equation, but that is what carbon dioxide does. I still maintain it is absurd to use the phrase “carbon pollution” when referring to CO2. It is a loaded phrase that Liberals use to drive a very wrong agenda, which the minister and the parliamentary secretary do. Volatile organic compounds are carbon pollution, not carbon dioxide, which is literally vital for life itself.

Again, my career in biology spanned some 35 years and I did a lot of fieldwork, so I have a deep affinity for landscapes, forests, waterways, rivers, fish, wildlife, all the things that make up the Canadian environment. I would remind the government that there are more environmental issues than climate change, which are extremely important. They are being ignored by the government and never mentioned by the NDP. For example, the eutrophication of Lake Erie is proceeding apace. I will read a quote, “In the mid-1990s, excessive algal growth began to re-emerge as a problem in the Great Lakes.” The government has not mentioned the Great Lakes once, not that I have heard, and most Canadians live around the Great Lakes.

Wetland loss in Canada is estimated to be about 70% in the settled area of Canada. Again, these are real and pressing environmental issues that should be addressed, but are not being addressed by the Liberal government.

In environmental science, we have something called environmental indicators that are actual measurements of certain environmental factors, things like sulphur dioxide, nitrous oxide, biodiversity, fish populations. We measure these over the span of time so we can assess what is going on in the environment.

Again, when it comes to environmental indicators, we have to ask what the environmental return is on a carbon tax. Notice again that there was not a quantative statement between the two Liberal members who spoke before.

Part of the climate change agenda of the government is a push for so-called green energy. Interestingly, the Liberals never talk about the environmental harm caused by some green energy projects. For example, wind turbines are notorious killers of birds. Some have called them bird cuisinarts. I have a paper from Avian Conservation Ecology 2013 regarding Canada. It states:

Installed wind capacity is growing rapidly, and is predicted to increase more than 10-fold over the next 10-15 years, which could lead to direct mortality of approximately 233,000 birds / year, and displacement of 57,000 pairs.

Where are the opposition parties when it comes to this? Nowhere.

In terms of bald eagles and wind turbines, research from the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service shows in the United States alone more than 4,000 bald eagles are killed by wind turbines.

With respect to a species that I am quite familiar with, the Myotis, or the little brown bat, it used to be common in my area. Now it is a COSEWIC listed species. A paper from Popular Science says, “Wind Turbines Kill More Than 600,000 Bats A Year. What Should We Do?” Again, it went on to say how bats were killed by wind turbines. ”Even if the bat isn’t struck, spinning turbines create changes in air pressure as they move, which can essentially cause the animals’ lungs to explode”. Again, none of these negative impacts of green energy projects is ever mentioned by anybody in the opposition parties.

There is a solar plant in California that kills 6,000 birds a year. The report says, “A macabre fireworks show unfolds each day along I-15 west of Las Vegas, as birds fly into concentrated beams of sunlight and are instantly incinerated, leaving wisps of white smoke against the blue desert sky”. Yes, that is green energy all right.

In terms of people, again, I refer to Ontario where the great wind turbine fight is going on. In the bulletin of science and technology journal 2011, researchers studied the health effects of wind turbines. It says:

People who live near wind turbines complain of symptoms that include some combination of the following: difficulty sleeping, fatigue, depression, irritability, aggressiveness, cognitive dysfunction, chest pain/pressure, headaches, joint pain, skin irritations, nausea, dizziness, tinnitus, and stress. These symptoms have been attributed to the pressure...waves that wind turbines generate in the form of noise and infrasound.

Yes, that is green energy all right. Again, the wind turbine fights in Ontario will only get stronger over time.

There is an article from February 23, 2016, entitled “Rules Ignored in Ontario Wind Energy Plan”. A local resident, Jane Wilson, was quoted as saying, “Just in terms of the fabric of the community (it is) ripping people apart”. She chairs Ottawa wind concerns.

People have lost complete faith in their government. People had no say whatever in what happened in their communities. Furthermore, if we look at Ontario, over the years when it has been going down this green energy path, it has only managed to create 13% of their energy mix from wind, biofuel, and solar.

In the case of my constituency, which is a very vast rural constituency, my constituents live on very modest incomes. In fact, it is one of the lower income constituencies in the entire country. What do modest incomes and the need to travel long distance add up to? A devastating effect from the Liberal carbon tax, which will hurt my constituents directly.

Opposition Motion—Impact of Carbon TaxesBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

4:05 p.m.

Winnipeg North Manitoba

Liberal

Kevin Lamoureux LiberalParliamentary Secretary to the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons

Madam Speaker, my colleague and I are members of Parliament from Manitoba. Our premier gave a throne speech and in it he stated that Manitoba's climate action plan, “will include carbon pricing that fosters emissions reductions, retains investment capital and stimulates new innovation in clean energy, businesses and jobs”. That comes from our premier, a Progressive Conservative premier. Has the member anything to say about those statements?

Members opposite need to understand that this is revenue neutral for the Government of Canada. The revenue is going toward to the provinces and the provinces will determine, in good part, what they will do with that revenue. If, for example, our premier decides to cut the PST, he can do that. If he wants to give more money to seniors, to non-profit groups, or to different sectors, he is entitled to do that.

I would be interested in my colleague's comments, specifically on the throne speech.

Opposition Motion—Impact of Carbon TaxesBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

Robert Sopuck Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB

Madam Speaker, what I find interesting about my colleague's comments is he did not mention the environment once. He assumes we tax citizens, which is a tax, and then we give it back to them. Where is the environment in this? Where is the impact on water quality? Where is the impact on air quality? Where is the impact on biodiversity? He never mentioned the environment once. The money is taken from citizens and then is given back to do things that may or may not have anything to do with the environment.

I thought this was an environmental policy. As somebody who spent a lot of time in the environmental policy business, what I care about is delivering real and measurable environmental results on which we can count.

Opposition Motion—Impact of Carbon TaxesBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

4:10 p.m.

NDP

Linda Duncan NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB

Madam Speaker, I did not hear much about the carbon tax in his speech either, just the environmental impacts of renewable energy. What he also did not talk about was the environmental and health impacts of using fossil fuels to provide electricity.

The reason Alberta moved forward first, and then the Liberal government followed, in shutting down coal-fired power sooner was not simply because it was one of the largest sources of carbon in Alberta. It was because of documentation by the Canadian Medical Association of severe life and death results of burning fossil fuels.

We know we had a ongoing problem in the tar ponds with the loss of wildlife, including birds. Therefore, I agree that we have to be fair and balanced in talking about this. However, is the member completely against all movement toward the use of alternative sources of power, despite the fact that many who work in the fossil fuel sector would like to have the opportunity of good jobs in that sector as well?