Debates of March 20th, 2017

National Security and Intelligence Committee of Parliamentarians Act

[David Anderson, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

Mr. Speaker, I am glad to be here this afternoon.

I am not sure I have seen a bill more emblematic of the Liberals than this bill. As I sit here and listen today, I see there is all kinds of enthusiasm over there, but no assurance of any kind of effectiveness. There is all kinds of work being planned here, but it is likely to have no results. There are all kinds of appointments in the mix, but it does not look as though there would be any balance either.

The Liberals made a promise in the campaign. Their promise was that they were going to set up a non-partisan parliamentary national security oversight committee. Bill C-22 is another broken promise from a government that is becoming famous for breaking them. I will talk about how it has broken that promise, but certainly there is no opportunity for this to be non-partisan or to be a real parliamentary committee, and it certainly is not going to have the oversight it should have.

There are several ways to set committees up around here. The one we thought the Liberals were promising was a non-partisan parliamentary committee. I assume that if we put that in place, we would be talking about equal numbers such that the opposition would be able to contribute on an equal basis and the power on that committee would be shared, perhaps through dual chairs or sharing the chairmanship. It would have the powers of a parliamentary committee. If it was a security committee, it would probably have to deal with some sort of secrecy issues around the content of what it is looking at.

There is a second opportunity, which is to set up a regular parliamentary committee that has parliamentary powers. All of us in the House sit on those types of committees. They always pretty much favour the government, because the numbers on the committee are set by the numbers we have in the House. Those committees are under the control of the government, and we recognize that.

There are also advisory committees of parliamentarians that can be set up, and then there is an advisory committee to the prime minister. We know the specialization that the Liberals across the way have on consultation, but typically those committees are appointed by the prime minister himself.

It is interesting that we saw the Liberals promise number one, a non-partisan parliamentary committee. What they are actually trying to deliver today is number four, which is that advisory committee to the prime minister, a committee that can consult with him and that he can talk to about these issues, but one which has very little power.

I want to take a bit of a look at some of the other countries involved in these committees. One of my colleagues across the way in the government a while ago talked about the United States intelligence committee structure and was actually trying to compare this structure to that. He talked about how there needs to be fairness and justice and that the rule of law must be guaranteed and protected by the bill. Bill C-22 does not do that. It does not compare in any way to the structure that is set up in the United States.

The previous speaker talked about the United Kingdom model being similar too. I am going to go through that a bit as well. I think we will find out that this committee does not have much similarity to the authority and power that the United Kingdom committees have either.

There are a number of other Commonwealth countries that do have oversight committees. New Zealand, for example, has a committee, but it basically is to examine issues of efficacy and efficiencies for budgetary matters, policy settings, and those kinds of things. It really does not have much to do directly with intelligence oversight. The members of that committee are the prime minister, two members of parliament nominated by him, the leader of the opposition, and one member nominated by the leader of the opposition. We can see in that situation that the Government of New Zealand would control that committee at all times. It is basically focused on budget oversight, not intelligence gathering.

The Australian model is a little bit different. It has a committee that is administrative. Its main functions are to do expenditure review and oversight there as well. It can also review matters that relate to some of the agencies that are referred to it, but it does not review intelligence gathering or operational procedures or priorities, and it does not conduct inquiries. Again, we see it is an oversight committee, but it is not what the Liberal government has promised to set up as a committee for Canadians.

The United Kingdom has a little stronger committee. It has a committee of parliament with greater powers. It was actually set up in 1994 as more of a monitoring committee, and in 2013 it was restructured or reformed to give it more powers and increase its strength. It now includes oversight of operational activity and the wider intelligence and security activities of government.

When people were thinking about this committee that the Liberals were promising during the campaign, they really thought that is what was going to be brought in, and it certainly is not, as we see when we look at the legislation, what the Liberals are doing to the legislation, and the work the committee did.

Bill C-22 is called the “national security and intelligence committee of parliamentarians act”. Usually a committee is named for what it really is, and if that is the case here, it probably should be called “the Prime Minister's advisory committee”, because while the bill may establish a committee, it clearly fails to meet either the election promise or to establish a real and true intelligence oversight committee.

It is a bit of an embarrassment, I think, for the government to find itself having to completely change its direction from what it promised. It is unfortunate that it is using time allocation this afternoon to cover what I would call its incompetence on this issue. It is unfortunate that we find ourselves once more in the situation of the government wanting to limit debate on a bill that is clearly not going to meet the priorities and needs of Canadians.

We have a Prime Minister who seems to love running around and appearing on stages more than he likes to do this kind of hard work, so it is not surprising to see legislation, time after time, that is written in ways that the government itself is unable to support. It has to reject the work of the committees, reject the amendments made by members from all parties in this Parliament, and basically turn its back on the promises it made.

The bill to set up this committee was introduced in June of 2016. The interesting thing is that the Prime Minister actually appointed a chair to this committee months before the legislation was even presented and long before it was even debated. I understand the member has been travelling around the world. I guess he thinks he is doing some work on this in his committee, but it is probably a pretty good gig to be appointed before the parliamentary committee is even set up and have the government pay to travel around to examine some of these issues. At least there is one person getting something out of this, if the rest of Canadians are not.

As I said, forming an effective non-partisan committee was a Liberal campaign promise. Every one of us in the House would like to ensure that there is an appropriate review of our national security agencies. Conservatives believe that is important and would like the committee, when it is set up, to have the capacity and the tools to be able to do what is required. I think we would all be glad to support a committee that would properly supervise and provide oversight to our national security and intelligence organizations, but the way it is being done in the House this afternoon is a clear demonstration that this whole project is far more about optics than it is about effectiveness.

If this committee is put in place, we need to make sure that it has the tools to do what is required, and that clearly has not happened. I just mentioned that the Prime Minister appointed a chair of the committee long before the legislation was written, or certainly before it was presented and long before it was debated. The person appointed, from my understanding, has very little expertise and does not have a history in these issues.

One of the issues here is that committees usually elect their own chairs and do not have ones imposed by the Prime Minister's Office.

The Liberals promised they were going to form this committee. It is not a parliamentary committee. It is controlled by the Prime Minister and the Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness. I do not know how anyone in the House could possibly see a committee set up like that to be non-partisan. What does it mean when the Prime Minister has the authority to appoint the members of the committee? Again, as I mentioned earlier, if Liberals really wanted to treat this matter seriously, why would we not be talking about co-chairs and an equal number of party representatives in the House? Without that, we really have nothing useful.

This is just one more broken promise. The budget is being presented this week, and we will be reminded again of how many promises the government has broken. This is one more of those broken promises. This will not be a non-partisan committee. The Prime Minister will be controlling it. It will not be a parliamentary committee. It will not have the powers of a parliamentary committee. What the committee gave the legislation in its work the government is now taking away.

The point is that if it were going to be effective, it would not be under the control of the Prime Minister and the Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness. It would be under the control of the members of Parliament who sit on that committee. If there were equal numbers of members and a sharing of the chairmanship, Conservatives could see how this committee might work effectively, but the government has made a decision that it is not going to do things that way, and that is unfortunate. It is unfortunate that the government finds itself in a situation like this today, but it is even more unfortunate that Canadians will end up paying for another mistake that has been made by the Liberal government.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons]

Mr. Speaker, what I find unfortunate is that the Conservative Party is completely out of touch with what Canadians really want on this issue.

The Prime Minister made a commitment to bring in parliamentary oversight, and that is exactly what the bill would do. It is a promise kept by the Prime Minister. It seems it is only the Conservative Party that really does not support parliamentary oversight.

The member across the way focuses his attention on the powers of the Prime Minister. The Prime Minister works in consultation with the leaders of the opposition parties to assist in some of those appointments. Government members are actually a minority on the committee itself.

In many ways, this legislation is more robust than legislation where there is parliamentary oversight as part of the Five Eyes nations. Would the member ultimately argue that the EU parliamentary oversight system and the New Zealand parliamentary oversight system are fundamentally flawed? We have some areas that are more robust than those areas.

It just seems to me the Conservatives are—

[The Deputy Speaker, Bruce Stanton]

The hon. member for Cypress Hills—Grasslands.

[David Anderson, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

My colleague across the way is scrambling this afternoon, Mr. Speaker.

I understand the committee did a lot of hard work on this and it came up with a number of amendments that would have given powers to this committee. It would have made it non-partisan. Appointments would not have been made by the Prime Minister. It would have brought in an acceptable level of accountability and transparency. The government rejected those amendments.

Canadians need to be paying attention tonight when we vote. They need to look at what the government is doing to this committee, because when it is done, the committee will have little review. It will have no transparency. It will not have the accountability it should have. It will not have powers of subpoena, even though other parliamentary committees do have that authority.

This committee does not need to be an extension of the Prime Minister's Office. That seems to be what the government is bound and determined to make it.

[Cheryl Hardcastle, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Mr. Speaker, since we are talking in the House today about what Canadians understand and the fact that Canadians are watching, I wonder if the member could highlight once again for Canadians exactly what is happening. Some of the recent comments by the hon. member from the governing party do not delve into what really is happening and what Canadians are concerned about.

I wonder if my colleague would discuss some of the issues with regard to parliamentary oversight in the counterpart Five Eyes nations and some of the shortcomings that our committee actually mentioned, which were about appointing the chairperson. Does he think there is a risk with no trust from Canadians if the books are not handed over to the government and other information that has been withheld? Maybe the member could expand on some of those shortcomings.

[David Anderson, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

Mr. Speaker, I wish I had more time to speak to this today because it is important that Canadians understand what the government is doing. Actually, it is important that they understand the work that the committee did.

We have a committee with all members on it who worked together to try to make the bill better. They brought back amendments and the government rejected the amendments that were made by a committee on which the government has a majority.

We need to make sure this thing has transparency. The government is going to remove that tonight with its vote. I am told there are multiple locking mechanisms entrenched in Bill C-22 that block committees from accessing information and calling witnesses. The government is making sure that those locks are in place so the committee will not be able to do the work it should.

We need to make sure this committee is non-partisan. The government is not guaranteeing that. Its chair and its members should not be appointed by the Prime Minister. We need to see that happen. Members of the committee need to be appointed by Parliament. Most important, the committee needs to report not to the Prime Minister but to Parliament. If it could do that, perhaps it could do some work that would be really valuable for Canadians.

[Elizabeth May, Green, Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC]

Mr. Speaker, although I do not think I agreed with a single thing my friend from Cypress Hills—Grasslands said, we are friends.

I want to know if he can explain why the previous Conservative government in the 41st Parliament in omnibus budget Bill C-38 did not allow for any amendments or any discussion and used time allocation at every stage, eliminated the office of the inspector general for CSIS, the only internal oversight that used to exist for CSIS. I think we need to bring back that office, as well as have the parliamentary committee.

[David Anderson, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

Mr. Speaker, we are here today to talk about Bill C-22 and the committee the government is proposing to establish for the future.

We need to come back to the fact that the committee needs to have authority. It needs to report back to Parliament, not to the Prime Minister. It needs to be appointed by Parliament. It also needs to be able to do a good job of intelligence oversight, or else we are just pretending that we have something that we really do not have.

[Alexandra Mendes, Liberal, Brossard—Saint-Lambert, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I have the great pleasure and honour to speak today to Bill C-22.

This bill will give Canada its first national security and intelligence committee of parliamentarians. By enacting legislation to create this new committee, our government is fulfilling its commitment to protecting national security while ensuring the utmost respect for rights and freedoms.

I would also note that the government has made it a priority to make Parliament more useful by consolidating its institutions and mobilizing parliamentarians. The national security and intelligence committee of parliamentarians that will be created by Bill C-22 is intended to be a forum where national security agencies will be able to exchange highly classified intelligence with parliamentarians who have received the proper security clearance.

The public wants national security and intelligence activities to be carried out in a responsible way. They are entitled to know that this important work is being done in accordance with the rule of law and in full recognition of individual rights, including the right to privacy. Because our government knows this is possible, it is committed to consolidating the national security framework in order to protect Canadians without compromising their values, rights and freedoms or the openness and inclusivity that this country represents.

Within the strong framework laid down by Bill C-22, the government will be able to disclose highly classified information to a committee that will include members of both Chambers and all parties. The parliamentarians who sit on the committee will have a broad mandate, defined in the bill, that consists of verifying whether the government’s work in the realm of national security and intelligence meets high standards and is carried out rigorously and responsibly. For that reason, I would like to focus on two fundamental aspects of this bill: accountability and transparency.

People expect that we, as parliamentarians, will be able to hold the government to account concerning the work done by national security and intelligence agencies. My esteemed colleagues know that SIRC, the Security Intelligence Review Committee that oversees CSIS, the Office of the Communications Security Establishment Commissioner, for the CSE, and the Civilian Review and Complaints Commission for the RCMP are well established entities that were created many years ago to ensure the transparency and accountability that people expect of the corresponding agencies in their mandatory annual reports.

Each of these entities oversees a national security or intelligence agency to ensure that it adheres to the rule of law and the directives given by its minister, namely the Minister of Public Safety for SIRC and the CRCC and the Minister of National Defence for the CSE.

To date, however, Canada has not been able to address national security and intelligence issues from a government-wide perspective, that is, to cast a wider net than any of the three entities we just spoke about do, wider even than the three of them together. That is what we want to remedy with Bill C-22. I would like to commend the Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security for the fine work it did in its examination of this important bill.

At this stage, the government is proposing to reinstate several important provisions of Bill C-22. More specifically, the government wants to reintroduce three mandatory exemptions relating to the committee’s access to classified information: first, protection of information respecting ongoing law enforcement operations; second, protection of the identity of informants and sources; and third, protection of persons in the witness protection program. This is because it is essential to guarantee the independence of police investigations and the safety and security of individuals who work in national security and intelligence.

The government has also proposed an amendment that reinstates clause 16, so that ministers have the necessary discretion not to disclose certain special operational information, but only if providing the information might be injurious to national security, for example, where operations or the safety of the individuals involved are in issue. As an additional safety measure, the bill provides that a minister who exercises his or her discretion in this regard must do so on a case-by-case basis. Moreover, the minister must, under the bill, inform the committee and provide the reasons why he or she has done so.

I congratulate the government for responding to the concerns of the standing committee while at the same time preserving the necessary protection measures and guarantees specified in the bill. I support the amendments proposed by the government.

I also want to point out that parliamentarians must review the bill every five years, starting from the date on which it comes into force. This is an important provision, because it establishes a legislative basis that gives the committee the ability to make changes.

As parliamentarians, we introduce, debate, and promulgate legislation dealing with matters of national security. The committees of the House and the Senate consider matters of national security policy and carry out studies of the government’s national security and intelligence activities and of the associated laws.

To date, however, Canadians have not had the benefit of an entity that gives parliamentarians a mandate to examine the government’s overall national security and intelligence infrastructure. That is what we are seeking to accomplish with the bill we are proposing, Bill C-22, an act to establish the National Security and Intelligence Committee of Parliamentarians and to make consequential amendments to certain acts.

By creating the committee of parliamentarians proposed in Bill C-22 and holding a debate on the amendments proposed by the government at this stage of the report, we are showing Canadians that the government is resolutely taking a stance as protector of their individual rights, their freedoms, and their values, while at the same time focusing on their security and their safety.

That is why I intend to vote for the bill, and I encourage all my colleagues to do the same.

[Karine Trudel, NDP, Jonquière, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague for her speech, which I listened to with interest.

I would like to go back to 2014, when the Prime Minister, the Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness, and nine other ministers voted in favour of Bill C-622, which sought to create an oversight committee with complete access and subpoena powers.

Why is the government trying to take these tools away from the committee proposed by Bill C-22? Why are the Liberals flip-flopping today, when they are now in government?

[Alexandra Mendes, Liberal, Brossard—Saint-Lambert, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I think it is important to recall that the government has made a point of taking the time to consult its colleagues of other authorities, in order to see what the best practices of those parliamentary committees were. The government’s conclusion that the minister should be allowed certain limits is based on reasons of security. That is why the government is maintaining its restrictions, which are still very limited and must be justified to parliamentarians.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Mr. Speaker, it has been interesting to hear the comments and concerns about the lack of transparency of this new committee and yet the party on this side would have the minority of the people on it.

Perhaps because the appointments would be made by the Prime Minister, the Prime Minister would have some enormous power that would actually neuter the voices of those sitting in the opposition preventing them from raising issues as they saw them come up, especially about the process, especially about the transparency. Surely if they saw a problem, they would have the freedom to speak up.

[Alexandra Mendes, Liberal, Brossard—Saint-Lambert, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I agree with my colleague that obviously the fact that the Prime Minister would appoint the parliamentarians that would sit on the committee would definitely not be an indication that they would be limited in the scope both of their work and of their liberty to do the work as fully as necessary to do their job.

[Luc Berthold, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I am not at all reassured when I hear my colleagues opposite saying that the fact that the government does not have a majority on a committee means that there is more democracy within that committee.

Let us recall the electoral reform committee. When a committee says the opposite of what the government wants to hear, the government could not care less about the committee’s recommendations and decides to make the decisions itself. That is our criticism of Bill C-22. Let us have a real parliamentary committee that will really have its say, and not a committee managed by the Prime Minister’s Office. The proof is that this bill is being passed under a gag order, because they are tired of hearing opposition representatives tell the truth about Bill C-22.

What does the member have to say about that?

[Alexandra Mendes, Liberal, Brossard—Saint-Lambert, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the member on this side has a good memory and recalls very clearly the 10 years of Conservative government during which the infamous gag order was imposed on us at nearly every turn, and during which that committee never had a chance to see the light of day because the government refused to allow it.

I really do not need any lectures from my opposition colleagues.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons]

Mr. Speaker, would the member provide some of her thoughts with regard to the valuable work that we saw at the committee stage, in particular, those who made presentations and the committee members who got together with some amendments?

[Alexandra Mendes, Liberal, Brossard—Saint-Lambert, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I absolutely commend the work done by the committee members. It was a very thoughtful process. They took the time to examine and to receive all the witnesses they could to provide as much information as possible in coming up with their recommendations. I think the government was also thoughtful in coming back with some acceptance and some non-acceptance of the recommendations from the committee. I have to commend the work done by the committee.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Mr. Speaker, it is a great honour to rise today to take part in this very important debate on Bill C-22.

I feel honoured to give voice to the serious concerns that many of my constituents have in the great riding of Cowichan—Malahat—Langford. I also want to note that this debate is taking place under the yoke of time allocation. In other words, the ability of parliamentarians to provide oversight on a bill dealing with oversight has now been curtailed by the government.

Bill C-22 cannot be debated without being properly placed in the context of Bill C-51 from the 41st Parliament. Bill C-51 was one of the most draconian pieces of security legislation to emanate from the previous Conservative government. Indeed, more than 100 of Canada's brightest legal experts from institutions across the country sent an open letter to all members of Parliament at the time, expressing their deep concern about Bill C-51. They called that bill a dangerous piece of legislation, in terms of the potential impacts on the rule of law, on constitutionally and internationally protected rights, and on the health of Canada's democracy.

We had former prime ministers, former justices of the Supreme Court of Canada, and all sorts of experts who gave close scrutiny to Bill C-51 and were convinced it was unconstitutional. Many of my constituents were very vocally opposed to Bill C-51, and indeed many of them took part in the protests that erupted across Canada during that time.

It was a sad day in Parliament when the Liberals joined with the Conservatives to pass that bill. I think, and many of my colleagues will agree with me, that on Bill C-51, the Liberals were indecisive, unreliable, and plain wrong to support it at the time. I do not think they realized how much of a serious misjudgement they had made with the Canadian public on the mood of Canadians.

Then, when we edged closer to the 2015 election, we suddenly saw a commitment in the Liberal campaign platform to introduce new legislation that would balance collective security with our rights and freedoms. Part of that promise was to establish an all-party national oversight committee, which we see today in Bill C-22.

In our system today, we have a history of having opposition chairs in oversight committees. Committees on ethics, public accounts, status of women, and government operations all have elected opposition chairs to ensure proper accountability and oversight. It is most unfortunate that the government, through clause 6 of the bill, has provided for the Governor in Council to designate the chair of the committee. In fact, the government has not even bothered to wait for the passage of this bill, because, as we all know, it has been widely reported that the member for Ottawa South is to be the chair. The government has also rejected attempts at the committee stage to allow for the committee to elect its chair, something which I think is unfortunate.

If I could deliver one message today, it is that Canadians expect to have a watchdog and oversight committee that has real teeth. I think this committee must have full access to classified information, have adequate resources, and, most importantly, it must have independence subject only to justifiable limits and the power to share its findings with Canadians in an informative and transparent manner.

Without adequate access to information, the committee will not be able to do its job effectively. I think this work is far too important to do half-heartedly or ineffectively. I will not support creating a committee that cannot properly provide oversight in accordance with what Canadians expect.

One of the government's proposals is to allow cabinet ministers to withhold information from the oversight committee. This is evident in Motion No. 5, which the government has presented, which seeks to reinstate clause 16. It is worded in a way that allows a minister to withhold information if he or she feels that it is special operational information or that the provision of the information would be injurious to national security.

If injurious to national security is not a blanket statement to cover any kind of reason, I do not know what is. I have heard Liberal MPs say that there is a proper accountability in oversight because the minister simply has to inform the committee of his or her decision and the reasons for it, as if that somehow makes everything okay.

I cannot support such a reinstatement of that clause. The public safety committee and the experts who were heard made it very clear that the the executive branch having this kind of power over an oversight committee simply will not fly. It would make the committee completely ineffective anytime that a minister wanted to withhold information. With regard to the way that the government wants to write the bill, the minister could claim that a confidential inquiry somehow jeopardizes the country's national security. I think that giving the government the ability to shut down any kind of investigation into its actions is too dangerous for a functioning and accountable democracy.

The other thing is that we need to build Canadians' trust in our security and intelligence community, and the way to do that is to create meaningful parliamentary oversight. We need to have a fully briefed parliamentary oversight committee that can issue authoritative reports to Canadians. Without full access and full trust from the agencies, the oversight committee cannot help those agencies earn the trust of Canadians. It is very disappointing and frustrating that the Liberals are not living up to the commitments they made trying to fix Bill C-51. To rebuild this trust, the committee must be strong, independent, and effective. The Liberals must fulfill their promise to “repeal the problematic elements of Bill C-51”.

I find it very troubling that the government cannot seem to place its trust in a select group of parliamentarians who will be security cleared, sworn to secrecy, and who will have waived all immunity based on parliamentary privilege. To underline how ridiculous this premise is, I would like to point out that there are members of the Conservative Party in opposition who were once members of cabinet in the previous Parliament. At that time, they had access to all kinds of sensitive information and are still bound by secrecy. Why the government will not now trust this committee to have full access and provide proper oversight remains an elusive mystery.

All parties worked hard during the committee process to improve Bill C-22. The final product, as was reported back to this House, was praised by four of Canada's leading authorities on intelligence and oversight issues. They wrote a joint op-ed in The Globe and Mail, calling on the government to accept the improvements and pass the bill. The last-minute changes that the government is now trying to make are unsupported by evidence heard at the committee, and they would undermine the effectiveness of the committee and the trust of Canadians. The Information Commissioner and the Privacy Commissioner of Canada, Kent Roach and Craig Forcese, the first chair of the Security Intelligence Review Committee, and a representative of the Canadian Bar Association, all testified that the oversight committee should not be restricted in its access to necessary information. I do not understand why the government is attempting to reject that expert evidence.

There are three core agencies responsible for security and intelligence work in Canada: CSIS, CSE, and the RCMP. They have a combined budget of approaching $4 billion, and they employ close to 34,000 people. Clearly such a vast network needs to have the accountability and oversight of Parliament in order to regain Canadians' trust. The role of Parliament is to scrutinize the government, represent the Canadian people, and bring forth good laws to govern our people.

I call on the Liberal MPs sitting in the back rows to go back to that special day on March 8 during the vote on Bill S-201, when they had the courage to stand up and assert their power as legislators in the face of the opposition from cabinet. As they did then, those Liberal MPs should reject the government's 11th-hour amendments to this bill, and instead listen to the evidence that was so clearly presented to the Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security. I ask all MPs in this House to remember that the government is accountable to Parliament, not the other way around.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons]

Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the comments from the member, but I disagree with a number of the points. I was there when there was a great deal of opposition to Bill C-51. The Liberal Party was different from the NDP back then. We believed there was a need to see Bill C-51 passed because of a wide variety of reasons. The security of Canadians was the predominant reason. We also made the commitment back then that we would bring in the parliamentary oversight. This bill would do just that.

My question for the member is this. I have been a parliamentarian now for about 25 years. I know how committees work. At the end of the day, I believe in the integrity of the members who would make up that committee. A majority of that committee would not be held by government members of Parliament. The government members of Parliament would be in a minority. It would take others to be onside in order to get something passed. Does that not provide any reassurances whatsoever for members across the way?

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Mr. Speaker, in a short answer, no, it does not. I appreciate that members of the governing party on a committee may not have a majority position. However, if the member had correctly listened to my speech, I do not really care about that particular section. My main concern is with clause 16 of this bill, which still allows a minister, with this blanket provision, to keep information from that committee. No matter what the membership of the committee is, the problem is not solved if we still have a clause allowing a minister to withhold information. We need proper oversight. We need proper accountability.

I do not know what the government's problem is when we have parliamentarians who are sworn to secrecy, have received security clearance, and basically have waived their right to parliamentary privilege so they will be accountable and fully subject to the law if they break that secrecy. I am not sure why the government cannot trust those parliamentarians when there are members in this House who used to be members of the previous Conservative government who are still maintaining that oath of secrecy.

I think what the member is talking about is window dressing. He did not address our real concerns regarding this bill.

[Elizabeth May, Green, Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I thank my hon. colleague from Cowichan—Malahat—Langford for putting the concern so very clearly as to why that parliamentary committee of MPs and senators, with all of the stringent qualifications they would have to undertake to be members of the committee, should have information withheld from them.

I do plan to vote for Bill C-22, because I think it is important to have parliamentary oversight. We have never had it. However, I am still putting forward my own amendment, which I hope the hon. member will support, to delete the clause of the bill which removes parliamentary privilege from MPs. Other countries with parliamentary oversight of intelligence operations do allow their MPs to continue to have parliamentary privilege. I see that one deletion as a way of pushing back on the overall message from the government that MPs are not trusted with information.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I thank my hon. colleague from Saanich—Gulf Islands for that part. I am still examining her proposed deletion of clause 12, because I think that in our system of checks and balances, in order to afford parliamentarians that privilege of accessing this information, there do need to be some checks. However, I do not think that the government would accept that in any case. Therefore, one of the important amendments that my colleague from Victoria has moved is the deletion of clause 31. If the government rejects everything else, we hope at least that by deleting clause 31 in this bill we can allow that accountability to a federal court, because we know that certain federal judges are sworn to secrecy. They deal with very sensitive information on an ongoing operational basis, and sometimes they have to issue warrants with very sensitive information. We hope that, at the very least, by eliminating clause 31, we have that recourse for the courts to actually enforce some of the things the committee is trying to do.

[Jennifer O'Connell, Liberal, Pickering—Uxbridge, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to address the House today with respect to the passage of Bill C-22, which would establish the national security and intelligence committee of parliamentarians, also known as NSICOP.

Canadians want and need to be assured that our national security and intelligence community's activities are conducted responsibly. This means that these important activities fully respect individual rights, including privacy, and that they are carried out according to the rule of law.

Canadians also expect that we as parliamentarians are in a position to hold the government accountable as to the conduct of these activities so that both Canada's national security and Canadians' rights and freedoms are assured.

Bill C-22 provides a well-designed framework within which the government would be able to share highly classified information with a statutory committee of members of the House of Commons and the Senate to be selected on a multi-partisan basis according to the provisions set out in this legislation. As members of this committee, they would be able to review the government's national security and intelligence activities to ensure this highly sensitive work is conducted responsibly and thoroughly.

Such a bill is long overdue. Once it is enacted and when the committee of parliamentarians becomes operational, the committee would be independent of the government for the purposes of its mandate. This would include the ability of the committee to decide which matters to review, in what priority and to what depth, while ensuring that the appropriate safeguards are firmly in place.

Bill C-22 enables the committee to review any federal department or agency that performs national security or intelligence activities. For example, activities at the Canadian Security Intelligence Service, CSIS, the Communications Security Establishment, the Canada Border Services Agency, the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, and a number of other organizations would be part of the committee's responsibility.

The national security and intelligence committee of parliamentarians would be unique in Canada in that it would have a government-wide mandate that sets it apart from other bodies established to review a specific agency, for example, either the Security Intelligence Review Committee, the commissioner of the Communications Security Establishment, or the Civilian Review and Complaints Commission for the RCMP. In this way, NSICOP represents the biggest change to the national security review structure in a generation.

The proposed committee of parliamentarians would review the legal, policy, and administrative frameworks that underpin national security operations. It would also be able to scrutinize the operational aspects of security and intelligence work. To do this, Bill C-22 grants the committee the powers to access the information it would need, including highly classified information.

It is important that hon. members appreciate that Bill C-22 has been carefully crafted to avoid unnecessary duplications of efforts within the broader national security community. This means that relevant information, such as reports, findings, and opinions, may be shared between the committee of parliamentarians and the other review bodies during the conduct of their respective work. This represents an important way of leveraging the good work of these organizations to help NSICOP get up to speed on issues and to fulfill its role in ensuring that national security and intelligence activities are in Canada's best interests.

To ensure accountability and transparency, the national security and intelligence committee of parliamentarians would be required to report annually on its work, including its findings and recommendations, as appropriate, and these reports would be tabled in Parliament. The committee would also be able to independently issue special reports as necessary.

Although the bill requires that reports would be submitted to the Prime Minister before tabling for the sole purpose of ensuring that classified information is not contained in the reports, I want to reassure hon. members that the bill does not provide the Prime Minister with the power to change the committee's findings or recommendations. To reiterate, the intent of this provision is to ensure, in the final stages before a report becomes public, that classified information is not inadvertently included. This is in everyone's interest.

It should also be noted that Bill C-22 enables the committee to provide classified reports to a minister or ministers at its own discretion. In doing so, however, the committee would still be required to include an unclassified summary of any such report in its annual report.

While it is vital to involve more parliamentarians in examining how federal national security entities and agencies carry out their national security responsibilities individually or collectively, there must also be some boundaries to ensure that ministers remain fully responsible and accountable for their department's activities. Every department and agency of the security and intelligence community reports to the minister, who is ultimately responsible for its conduct. This minister is accountable to Parliament, and ultimately to Canadians, for ensuring that the organization under her or his charge carries out its duties to keep us safe, while respecting our fundamental rights and freedoms and the rule of law.

With respect to access to information for the committee of parliamentarians, I believe that the amendments proposed by the government at report stage represent a balanced, reasonable approach to some of the changes proposed by the standing committee. Notably, the proposal by the government to reintroduce some of the mandatory exceptions to the committee's access in clause 14 is intended to ensure that certain categories of sensitive, highly restricted information are protected from any inadvertent release that may cause harm to individuals and/or to national security related operations.

The government's proposed reinstatement of clause 16, as it appeared when the bill was tabled, would further provide ministers with a mechanism to ensure that special operational information can be protected, but only where necessary to protect national security.

Bill C-22, with the amendments proposed by the government, provides the necessary checks and balances, and I encourage hon. members to join me in supporting it. For example, if a minister determines it to be necessary to withhold information from the committee at a specific point in time to ensure the integrity of a national security operation, the minister would be required to explain the request to the committee. If disputed by the committee, the committee would have the ability to report this matter to Parliament.

I can assure hon. members that Bill C-22, with the proposed amendments, would give the committee of parliamentarians the ability to hold the government accountable as to its national security and intelligence activities. Also, the committee would be able to play a key role in ensuring that ministers take the necessary action to address problems and to fix deficiencies within their own areas of responsibility.

I want to emphasize that the bill would provide the national security and intelligence committee of parliamentarians significant powers with which to conduct its important work. However, it is also important to add that the bill also provides support for the committee by creating a professionally staffed secretariat.

Bill C-22 demonstrates that the government intends to set the bar higher for national security and intelligence matters because of the transparency and accountability it requires. Our government wants Canadians to feel confident that their Parliament will be able to hold the government to account in this regard.

I want to share with hon. members that it is my wish that the bill be seen as one of the building blocks to restore a high level of trust and respect of Canadians in parliamentarians. I hope hon. members from all parties will join me in supporting the enactment of the bill with the amendments we have proposed at this time.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons]

Mr. Speaker, whether it has been the minister of public services or the minister responsible for House business, we have seen a great deal of working with opposition members and the many different stakeholders. We have seen a number of amendments actually brought through at the committee stage. The presentations from the expert witnesses were very convincing. Now we have a good piece of legislation that all of us can be very proud of.

I would ask my colleague to provide some of her thoughts on how important it is that today we will be voting on something that is somewhat historic as this will be Canada's first attempt at having a parliamentary oversight committee, and even though it is our first attempt, it is a very robust system we are putting in place. It is arguably some of the best legislation, even in comparison to other Five Eyes countries that have parliamentary oversight legislation. Perhaps she could provide her thoughts on the significance and importance of providing that oversight for Canadians.

[Jennifer O'Connell, Liberal, Pickering—Uxbridge, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I think all of us the House of Commons can understand that we have a role, a responsibility, and a duty to Canadians. Oftentimes that duty comes with oversight. For something as important as national security and our intelligence agencies, it is members of the House who ultimately must ensure that the rule of law and human rights, that all of these things are always being upheld. In my opinion, it is for that reason that this oversight committee is long overdue. I think it is what Canadians expect of us and expect of a reasonable government.