House of Commons Hansard #153 of the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was chair.

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National Security and Intelligence Committee of Parliamentarians ActGovernment Orders

6:20 p.m.

Conservative

James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB

Mr. Speaker, it is a sad day. Here we are again, debating important legislation and the Liberals have moved closure on it, not allowing us to have a full debate and denying members the ability to speak to the bill.

The member talks about how great the bill is, but we know that the proposed changes by the opposition in committee were not accepted by the Liberals. We know the Liberals are trying to withhold information from this new security and intelligence committee to do its job. There is censorship. The PMO has oversight over the ability of the non-partisan, all-party committee to get down to the heart of whether our Charter of Rights and Freedoms and privacy are being protected, whether our national security agencies, such as CSIS, CSEC, the RCMP, the National Security Agency or an investigation agency within national defence, are performing their duties and responsibilities in a way that not only protects Canadians, but also protects our privacy rights and our Charter rights.

Does the member agree that the government is doing the right thing by censoring the ability of the committee to call for papers, to call for people, to call for reports, and publish those reports on a public matter without having them edited and censored by the PMO?

National Security and Intelligence Committee of Parliamentarians ActGovernment Orders

6:25 p.m.

Liberal

Jennifer O'Connell Liberal Pickering—Uxbridge, ON

Mr. Speaker, in my speech, I clarified the fact that the Prime Minister could not actually alter the recommendations. It is simply a review to ensure that privacy of national security is not inadvertently leaked to the public for obvious reasons. While I appreciate my hon. colleague's comments, saying it is “censorship”, I would think national security and keeping Canadians safe is a non-partisan issue that we all should advocate.

This legislation and this committee is really about balance: how do we ensure we have the right oversight without risking national security? I think Canadians, broadly, will appreciate that we are working on that balance, that it is a sensitive mix. I am proud that our government has that balance right. Frankly, I do not take many lessons from the members of the Conservative Party who, in the previous government, decided never to consult with Canadians on matters like this and instead decided to impose their will and their opinions. This balance is what Canadians expect of us.

National Security and Intelligence Committee of Parliamentarians ActGovernment Orders

6:25 p.m.

Liberal

Michel Picard Liberal Montarville, QC

Mr. Speaker, it is an honour to speak today in support of Bill C-22, an act to establish the National Security and Intelligence Committee of Parliamentarians and to make consequential amendments to certain acts.

After considering this bill at second reading and reviewing it in committee, we now have the opportunity to examine it at report stage. The sound parliamentary process has served us well. The bill was carefully reviewed by members from all parties in the House, who listened to advice from expert witnesses, and the Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security proposed amendments.

As currently worded, the bill will move our country towards a more accountable and effective national security system. The creation of a new national security and intelligence committee of parliamentarians will allow the government to keep one of its major promises to Canadians.

This committee will be a very important addition to our parliamentary landscape and will allow the following: extraordinary access to classified information in order to closely examine intelligence and security operations; increased scrutiny of national security and intelligence activities; a broader mandate than that of corresponding committees in other modern democracies; the ability to develop its own agenda completely independent from government; the duty to be accountable to Canadians by reporting annually to Parliament; and the power to examine activities across the entire federal government, including ongoing operations.

Under the current version of this legislation, the committee must meet the dual objectives we set in that regard at the outset: ensuring that our national security apparatus works properly in order to keep Canadians safe, while also protecting Canadians' rights and freedoms.

When this bill was first introduced, it proposed a more robust committee than those of many of our international allies. The amendments would further broaden the scope, powers, and access we are proposing for the committee, and the government indicated that it would accept most of those amendments.

With respect to the scope, for example, we all agree that the committee must have the authority to examine all operations related to national security and intelligence. As amended, this would now include the activities of crown corporations. Furthermore, according to the amendments, if the minister were to determine that a study would be injurious to national security, his power to delay would be limited to the time during which the activity is under way. The committee could examine the activity afterwards.

The provision concerning whistle-blowers is another important amendment that would require the committee to inform a minister and the Attorney General of any activity related to national security or intelligence undertaken by a department that may not be in accordance with the law. Like my colleagues, I am pleased to see that this amendment received broad support.

I also agree that the committee chair should have a vote in the event of a tie. I also agree with the many changes regarding exemptions to access to information that the bill initially proposed. The recent amendments, for example, will allow the committee to receive information about activities under way, related to defence intelligence, in support of military activities.

The Committee will also have access to pertinent information collected by the Financial Transactions and Reports Analysis Centre of Canada and the information protected by the Investment Canada Act. The government also agreed to amend the bill so that the reason for any redaction is provided.

The government was open to reasonable amendments throughout the parliamentary process. Not only did we carry out a careful study of this vital bill, but we also benefited from many years of reflection on the creation of a committee, and a long collaboration with international partners.

Each member of the Five Eyes alliance, including Australia, New Zealand, the United Kingdom, and the United States, has a legislative body with access to classified information in order to monitor national security issues.

Canada has tried for more than a decade to create one. It is time for us to give Canadians and parliamentarians a mandate to examine these activities that we all want to have and that we all need.

Today, we are taking one more step toward implementing this important new body. We are getting closer to a system in which parliamentarians are in a better position to hold the government accountable. We can have greater assurance that concrete measures are taken when we target the flaws and problems associated with our security framework and operations.

We have learned lessons from some of our allies’ best practices. We are getting closer to a genuinely Canadian approach to accountability when it comes to national security. This is a major step forward for Canada.

This bill is as bold and progressive as it is well-thought-out and balanced. I am very proud to be part of the Parliament that will finally, I hope, put this essential accountability mechanism in place.

I would like to thank all the members and all the parties for their support, advice, consideration, and discussions, as well as the constructive attitude that has made it possible to craft a better bill. I urge all my colleagues to support the passage of this important legislation.

National Security and Intelligence Committee of Parliamentarians ActGovernment Orders

6:30 p.m.

NDP

Cheryl Hardcastle NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON

Mr. Speaker, it is very interesting to hear all of the comments with regard to the bill coming forward.

I want to stress for Canadians what is actually happening here. I would like to have the member explain for Canadians why it does not pose a risk to have information withheld from a committee that has the mandate of oversight and why it is not a risk to deny information with regard to financing and books to an auditor.

Could the member explain how this committee can actually move forward and be a bona fide oversight committee with these glaring shortcomings? We expected this to address some of the concerns that came forward with Bill C-51. Now we have something that is toothless.

I am very concerned. Perhaps the member could explain why these risks are acceptable for Canadians to take on, when we are creating this new committee that is supposed to have oversight but actually has no weight whatsoever.

National Security and Intelligence Committee of Parliamentarians ActGovernment Orders

6:30 p.m.

Liberal

Michel Picard Liberal Montarville, QC

Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague for her question.

I would remind my hon. colleague that what I have just said is that certain information that is kept confidential during operations will be available to the committee members afterward, so that the committee can analyze national security-related operations.

I would also remind the member that the party to which she belongs was prepared to remove from the legislative landscape the bills that we are trying to improve to ensure Canadians can be safe, which is the basis of this bill, and, most importantly, can have confidence in a committee that will be able to verify and oversee what at least 17 agencies, organizations, and bodies in the security field are doing, to ensure that operations are conducted properly and that their freedoms and rights are upheld.

National Security and Intelligence Committee of Parliamentarians ActGovernment Orders

6:35 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker Bruce Stanton

Resuming debate, the hon. member for Barrie—Innisfil. I will let him know that there are just shy of 10 minutes remaining for his remarks. I will give him the usual indication just before his time is up. He will have approximately eight and a half minutes.

National Security and Intelligence Committee of Parliamentarians ActGovernment Orders

6:35 p.m.

Conservative

John Brassard Conservative Barrie—Innisfil, ON

Mr. Speaker, if truth be known, I only expected to speak for four minutes, so I want to thank you for the extra time. I just wish my colleague from Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman would have stood up and asked a question at that point.

However, I want to speak to a very important issue as the last speaker in this debate. What is interesting to me is to see the level of control that is going on within the Liberal government and within the Prime Minister's Office. In the election campaign the Prime Minister talked about doing things differently, holding his hand over his heart saying that for Canada things will be better, yet here we are, dealing with a time allocation situation. There have not been that many speakers, quite frankly, to speak to this very important issue.

The reality is that this was a campaign promise that was made by the Liberal government, and it is effectively fast-tracking it through Parliament.

As I prepared to speak to this issue in the short time that I had, I saw that a Google search on Bill C-22 shows us the level of concern that exists among Canadians, and certainly it has been been editorialized as well that we have to make sure we get this right. Getting it right is important. That means giving oversight of this committee to this body, to Parliament, not having it consolidated through the PMO. It means making sure that information is accessible to this committee. That is extremely important.

I know that the NSICOP would report to the Prime Minister's Office when it should be reporting to Parliament. The Prime Minister campaigned on a reduced role for the Prime Minister's Office, but again his actions do not speak to and certainly do not follow those words. There were several amendments that were proposed at the public safety committee to make this security committee much more effective. Some of those proposals and amendments would have provided truly effective scrutiny for members of Parliament on this oversight committee, yet they were rejected. As a result, the committee will not have the power it needs in order to have true oversight.

A lot of discussion has gone on about our Five Eyes allies. What the government has done is it has not used some of the examples from the United Kingdom with respect to a very similar parliamentary committee that the U.K. has. The new committee does need the powers to ensure that it has this democratic oversight.

One of the issues that is concerning all of us is that this bill, Bill C-22, was tabled in the final hours of the last session of Parliament to ensure there would be virtually no debate. That is effectively what is happening here. The government is shutting down debate on this issue. My colleagues and I on this side do not think that needs to be done. However, it is a systemic pattern of the current government.

I go back to the campaign. I know the government can criticize the time allocations brought by the previous government all it wants, but when we go back to the throne speech, when the Prime Minister's words were delivered by the Governor General in the Senate, it said that every voice in this chamber would be heard. In the throne speech it said that every member who represents Canadians will have their say, yet so far, not many voices in this chamber have been heard. Those voices were even echoed at committee, yet the Liberals, through the committee, decided that they would not accept any of the amendments.

I am pleased to say that there are a couple of amendments that we will be voting on this evening. One is from the member for Saanich—Gulf Islands. This motion was moved to remove the provision of the bill that states that the national security and intelligence committee of parliamentarians is not protected by parliamentary privilege. This is an amendment that is easily supportable, because the committee proposed by the legislation would make any type of disclosure or whistle-blowing from the proposed committee liable to prosecution under the Security of Information Act. That is a critical element.

The member for Beloeil—Chambly is also proposing an amendment to the motion, and this amendment to the motion is due for consideration because it would partially stifle the Liberal attempt to remove powers of the proposed committee. That really is the basis of concern with respect to this piece of legislation. Just what powers will the committee have, and how much of that power will be controlled by the Prime Minister's Office?

The other area of concern, and it has been mentioned several times, is that the committee chair has already been appointed. The committee chair was known a year ago, even before this legislation came to Parliament. Do we know the qualifications of the chair? Is this just a partisan play, in saying to a member that the member will not be in cabinet but will be put in charge of this important committee? It is not a committee of Parliament but effectively is turning out to be a committee of the Prime Minister's Office. Will it be a political arm of the Prime Minister's Office? A fair question for Canadians to ask is, what are the qualifications of the members who are going to be on this committee?

We on this side of the aisle understand how important it is for government to look after the safety and security of its citizens. Many times in the history of this Parliament it has been argued, and I would argue the same thing, that this is the number one priority of government.

The committee will view a lot of information, but unfortunately the truth is that it is not going to get to see all the information that it needs. In order for the committee to be effective, in order for it to achieve its objective as a true national security committee of Parliament, it needs as much information as it can get.

Furthermore, the committee should report to Parliament. Parliament represents Canadians. We are the ones that the committee should report to.

National Security and Intelligence Committee of Parliamentarians ActGovernment Orders

6:40 p.m.

Winnipeg North Manitoba

Liberal

Kevin Lamoureux LiberalParliamentary Secretary to the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons

Mr. Speaker, I will take this opportunity to emphasize how important this legislation is. We went through a process at committee stage. The member made reference to the number of people who spoke to this legislation. Well over 40 members have spoken to the bill here in the House, not to mention the over 120 opportunities for people to get engaged in the House. There was plenty of feedback at committee stage.

All the fine work that has been done has led to a number of amendments that ultimately have given more strength to the legislation. I wonder if the member could provide some comments in terms of the effectiveness of the committee at proposing amendments.

National Security and Intelligence Committee of Parliamentarians ActGovernment Orders

6:45 p.m.

Conservative

John Brassard Conservative Barrie—Innisfil, ON

Mr. Speaker, as we have heard throughout the day, many of the more significant amendments to this piece of legislation were rejected by the Liberal majority on the committee.

This speaks to the issue of the openness of this Parliament. As I said earlier, the Prime Minister said that members of the House will have a voice for Canadians, but that voice is being denied because of the actions of the Liberal government.

National Security and Intelligence Committee of Parliamentarians ActGovernment Orders

6:45 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker Bruce Stanton

It being 6:45 p.m., pursuant to an order made earlier today, it is my duty to interrupt the proceedings and put forthwith every question necessary to dispose of the report stage of the bill now before the House.

The question is on Motion No. 1. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?

National Security and Intelligence Committee of Parliamentarians ActGovernment Orders

6:45 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

No.

National Security and Intelligence Committee of Parliamentarians ActGovernment Orders

6:45 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker Bruce Stanton

All those in favour of the motion will please say yea.

National Security and Intelligence Committee of Parliamentarians ActGovernment Orders

6:45 p.m.

Some hon. members

Yea.

National Security and Intelligence Committee of Parliamentarians ActGovernment Orders

6:45 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker Bruce Stanton

All those opposed will please say nay.

National Security and Intelligence Committee of Parliamentarians ActGovernment Orders

6:45 p.m.

Some hon. members

Nay.

National Security and Intelligence Committee of Parliamentarians ActGovernment Orders

6:45 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker Bruce Stanton

In my opinion the yeas have it.

And five or more members having risen:

The recorded division on the motion stands deferred.

The question is on Motion No. 2. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?

National Security and Intelligence Committee of Parliamentarians ActGovernment Orders

6:45 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

No.

National Security and Intelligence Committee of Parliamentarians ActGovernment Orders

6:45 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker Bruce Stanton

All those in favour of the motion will please say yea.

National Security and Intelligence Committee of Parliamentarians ActGovernment Orders

6:45 p.m.

Some hon. members

Yea.

National Security and Intelligence Committee of Parliamentarians ActGovernment Orders

6:45 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker Bruce Stanton

All those opposed will please say nay.

National Security and Intelligence Committee of Parliamentarians ActGovernment Orders

March 20th, 2017 / 6:45 p.m.

Some hon. members

Nay.

National Security and Intelligence Committee of Parliamentarians ActGovernment Orders

6:45 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker Bruce Stanton

In my opinion, the nays have it.

And five or more members having risen:

The recorded division on the motion stands deferred.

The question is on the amendment to Motion No. 3. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the amendment?

National Security and Intelligence Committee of Parliamentarians ActGovernment Orders

6:45 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

No.

National Security and Intelligence Committee of Parliamentarians ActGovernment Orders

6:45 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker Bruce Stanton

All those in favour of the amendment will please say yea.

National Security and Intelligence Committee of Parliamentarians ActGovernment Orders

6:45 p.m.

Some hon. members

Yea.