Debates of Sept. 28th, 2017

Taxation

[Bill Morneau, Liberal, Minister of Finance]

Mr. Speaker, creating a tax system that is fair for the long term is very important. Listening to Canadians along the way to make sure we understand how we can do that best is also important. We are making sure we do not have incentives for the wealthiest not available to the middle class. As well, we are going to make sure that businesses that have created jobs that are within families can be transferred from one generation to the next. That is true for farmers, and that is true for all businesses. We want to make sure they can be successful and can pass them on to the next generation in an appropriate way, and we are going to listen to make sure we get this right.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

Mr. Speaker, the minister is an honourable man, but he did not answer the question of the House leader. He committed in writing that, to prevent a conflict of interest situation from arising and to avoid the perception of preferential treatment, he would abstain from any matters relating to Morneau Shepell. Today we had two witnesses who testified under oath that his tax changes will lead to a large increase in the number of people who put money into individual pension plans, plans that are offered fairly uniquely by Morneau Shepell. Why did he not abstain from this conversation?

[Bill Morneau, Liberal, Minister of Finance]

Mr. Speaker, I can only say that saying something does not make it true. What we need to do is focus on—

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!

[The Speaker, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Order, order. I have to hear the answer from the hon. minister, and we all have to hear so we can know whether there are any rules broken, among other things.

The hon. Minister of Finance has the floor.

[Bill Morneau, Liberal, Toronto Centre, ON]

Mr. Speaker, as I was saying, what we need to do is focus on what we are actually trying to achieve here. We are trying to make sure that Canadians across this country have a tax system that they can feel confident is actually creating the kind of opportunities they want. That means that it should not be creating more opportunity for the richest people who can go forward and arrange their affairs in a way that they get more and more advantages, which are not available to the middle class. We know this is happening. We have done the work to examine this issue. We are going to make sure we get it right for the long term.

Health

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Mr. Speaker, the parliamentary budget officer just released a report on universal pharmacare. The PBO says a public drug plan could cover every single Canadian and save $4 billion a year.

Canada is the only developed country in the world with a public health care system that does not include prescription drug coverage, and the high cost of pharmaceuticals is forcing too many Canadians to choose between refilling their fridge and refilling their prescriptions.

Will the Liberals join with the NDP and commit to creating a universal pharmacare program?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada and to the Minister of Health]

Mr. Speaker, our government is committed to strengthening Canada's health care system, including enhancing the affordability, accessibility, and appropriate use of prescription drugs. We look forward to reviewing the parliamentary budget officer's analysis of the cost of a universal national health care program.

Let me make it clear. We need to make sure that Canada's existing prescription drug system is more efficient and responsive before we can begin to discuss universal drug coverage.

[Anne Minh-Thu Quach, NDP, Salaberry—Suroît, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the dream of a public health care system has not yet been been fully realized in Canada, but it is well within our reach.

The parliamentary budget officer's report clearly shows that we can reduce the cost of prescription drugs with a national pharmacare program and save billions of dollars. Quebec has already demonstrated its leadership in this area, and it is high time the federal government followed suit.

Let us finish the job by offering all Canadians a truly comprehensive public health care system.

Will the Liberals join the NDP in making lower-cost prescription drugs a reality?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada and to the Minister of Health]

Mr. Speaker, by taking bold steps to address affordability, accessibility, and appropriate prescribing, we are working with all of our provincial partners to bring prices down and to improve pharmaceutical management.

We look forward to reviewing the parliamentary budget officer's analysis on the cost of a universal health care system. We remain committed to continue to work with the provinces, territories, and all of our partners to lower drug prices, to provide timely access to medicines, and to improve patient care through appropriate prescribing and use.

Taxation

[Gérard Deltell, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Finance has finally admitted that there are problems with his tax reform.

That is the first step. I will give him some ideas to help him out. The problem with his reform is that small businesses will pay more taxes while the Prime Minister's private companies will not be affected by the tax hike.

The problem is that Morneau Shepell will not be affected by the finance minister's reform, but small businesses will have to pay more. The problem is that Morneau Shepell will benefit from the minister's reform but it is not withdrawing from the discussions.

Is the minister aware that his reform is a big mistake and that Canadian business owners are the ones who will have to pay for his mismanagement?

[Bill Morneau, Liberal, Minister of Finance]

Mr. Speaker, I want to be absolutely clear.

We want to continue to offer SMEs the lowest tax rate in the G7. That is very important. We know that is it important for SMEs to be able to invest in their active business. That is critically important. We are going to make sure they can continue doing that.

At the same time, we need to do something about the fact that the current tax system encourages the wealthy to incorporate so they pay a lower tax rate than the middle class. That is not a good system for the future.

That is our goal.

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC]

Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Finance is an honourable minister of the crown. He has given assurances in writing to prevent a conflict of interest situation from arising and to avoid the perception of any preferential treatment.

We want to see accountable government. Part of being accountable means to give an accounting of how we have handled our affairs and the affairs for all Canadians.

The finance minister has not answered the question. Why did the minister not abstain from promoting these proposed tax changes?

[Bill Morneau, Liberal, Minister of Finance]

Mr. Speaker, not only did I not abstain but I actively engaged in working to make sure the tax system is fair. This is very important for Canadians.

We want to make sure middle-class Canadians know that the opportunities from the tax code are there for them and not just for the wealthiest. This is critical. We want to make sure our tax system encourages the activity we want, which is investing in business.

I will continue to actively engage to make sure our system is fair, that it encourages activities that are important, like investing, and that we know that for the long term the next generation has a really positive opportunity with growth in this country.

[Luc Berthold, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I am rather shocked by the answer from the Minister of Finance. Witnesses who appeared before the Standing Committee on Finance this morning told us that the finance minister's company would benefit from the government's proposed tax changes. On top of that, the finance minister just told us that he is proud of them and that he did not abstain.

Why did the Minister of Finance not abstain from promoting the tax changes that will benefit his own company?

[Bill Morneau, Liberal, Minister of Finance]

Mr. Speaker, I am very proud of the fact that, in the future, we will have a tax system that is fairer for the middle class and all Canadians. That is very important.

I am proud of the opportunities our system will provide to SMEs and other companies so that they can make significant investments in Canada's future. That is important for our growth and our level of confidence in our system. This issue is very important to us and to all Canadians. We will continue with the steps we are taking.

[John Barlow, Conservative, Foothills, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I find the responses by the Minister of Finance very disconcerting. We heard from two witnesses at the finance committee today that the changes proposed by the Liberal tax minister—the Liberal finance minister—could very well benefit Morneau Shepell, and the minister is saying that he actively participated in those discussions. He signed an agreement that he would avoid any perception of any influence and conflict of interest.

Why has the minister not abstained from promoting these proposed tax changes? I am going to give him one more time to answer that question.

[Bill Morneau, Liberal, Minister of Finance]

Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased to tell the House and all Canadians that I did more than actively engage in this. I am deeply involved in working to make sure our tax system is fair.

This is critically important. For Canadians to have confidence in our tax system, they need to know that it works for all Canadians, not just the wealthy few. We are going to continue these efforts.

They also need to know that, first and foremost, I care about growing our economy. I absolutely do. We know that making sure that people can invest in their active businesses is critically important. We are going to move forward and make sure that our system works for all Canadians.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Mr. Speaker, for many small businesses, summer is a busy time and when a lot of them make their bread and butter for the year. Small business owners are questioning why the Liberals chose this time for these consultations. They also do not understand why they are being singled out while the biggest abusers of our tax system are being ignored.

Instead of shutting down these talks in a few days, will the Liberals extend the consultation period and expand the scope to include big business, CEOs, and tax havens? Let us put the fairness back in tax fairness.

[Bill Morneau, Liberal, Minister of Finance]

Mr. Speaker, we have worked for a year with tax experts to focus on the places where we see significant advantages going to wealthy Canadians to arrange their affairs in a way to create lower taxes for them than other Canadians. At the same time, we have given more than $1 billion over the last two years to the Canada Revenue Agency to go after tax evasion. At the same time, of course, we have lowered taxes on middle-class Canadians. With the Canada child benefit, we have helped those who are most challenged. We are doing multiple things that are helping Canadians and improving our economy over the long run. We are listening to Canadians to make sure that we get this right, but, make no mistake, we are going to move forward—

[The Speaker, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

The hon. member for Sherbrooke.

[Pierre-Luc Dusseault, NDP, Sherbrooke, QC]

Mr. Speaker, Canadians know quite well what a fair and equitable tax system is. It is a system in which the CEOs and millionaires of this world, like the minister, pay their fair share of taxes.

Today, however, the rich are still exploiting tax loopholes that save them millions, even billions, of dollars, and the Liberals are still shielding them. There is nothing fair about this situation. The Liberals have yet to table any legislation for cracking down on international tax evasion.

Why has the minister decided to turn a blind eye to the tax havens costing us upwards of $8 billion a year?

[Diane Lebouthillier, Liberal, Minister of National Revenue]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank my colleague for giving me an opportunity to tell Canadians about the results of our crackdown on tax evasion and tax avoidance.

We have invested an unprecedented amount of money, nearly $1 billion, in tools for tackling tax fraud. Our plan is yielding results. We are about to recoup close to $25 billion from tax evaders and tax avoiders. Since we came into power two years ago, there have been 335 cases transferred to criminal investigation, $10 million in fines, $44 million in—

[The Speaker, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Order. The hon. member for Brampton East.

[Raj Grewal, Liberal, Brampton East, ON]

Mr. Speaker, earlier this year, my colleagues and I on the finance committee took a comprehensive review of tax evasion and tax avoidance to ensure that all Canadians are paying their fair share.

In our report, the committee recommended that the Government of Canada establish a reporting program for the CRA that would ensure that Canadians have access to information about the agency's efforts when it comes to tax avoidance and tax evasion.

Can the Minister of National Revenue please update this House on the progress of those recommendations?