House of Commons Hansard #361 of the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was language.

Topics

International TradeOral Questions

3:05 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

No.

International TradeOral Questions

3:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Speaker Liberal Geoff Regan

Now I believe the hon. opposition House leader has the usual Thursday question.

Business of the HouseOral Questions

3:05 p.m.

Conservative

Candice Bergen Conservative Portage—Lisgar, MB

Mr. Speaker, if the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons could please tell this House what we will be looking at for the rest of this week and next week, that would be appreciated.

Business of the HouseOral Questions

3:05 p.m.

Waterloo Ontario

Liberal

Bardish Chagger LiberalLeader of the Government in the House of Commons

Mr. Speaker, this afternoon, pursuant to the order made Tuesday, November 27, we will debate the 66th report of the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs.

We will then finish the debate on Bill C-86, the second budget implementation bill, at third reading.

Tomorrow morning, we will start the second reading debate of Bill C-87, an act respecting the reduction of poverty.

On Monday, we will commence debate at second reading stage of Bill C-88, concerning the Mackenzie Valley.

Last, next Tuesday shall be the final allotted day in the supply cycle.

Business of the HouseOral Questions

3:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Speaker Liberal Geoff Regan

Pursuant to order made on Tuesday, November 27, the House will now revert to the rubric “Motions”.

Procedure and House AffairsCommittees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

3:05 p.m.

Liberal

Robert-Falcon Ouellette Liberal Winnipeg Centre, MB

Mr. Speaker, I move that the 66th report of the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs, presented on Tuesday, June 19, be concurred in.

[Member spoke in Cree]

I would like to share my time with the member for Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River.

I just said in Cree that I am extremely proud to be here and that we are all related. It is a way of saying hello to everyone. This greeting is not only for my fellow Canadians, but for all people with whom I have a connection. It also tells all people and all creation that we are together.

Language and culture are extremely important. They are not distinct. Indigenous languages have been dying now for over 150 years. They have been ignored for generations and actively suppressed by governments, but I am proud to say that we are entering a new age, when this will be no more. We will be getting a fighting chance to ensure the survival of indigenous languages.

When I was first elected to the House of Commons, I had a dream, a dream that a grandmother, from her reserve, could turn on the television and watch the great debates of Parliament in her indigenous language, whether it was Cree, Anishinabeg, an Iroquoian language, Innu or any language across Canada. It is extremely important that the dream be realized, but we face grave difficulties, because there is no central authority to enable that grandmother to have the television on. Even though we have CPAC in French and English, it does not exist in indigenous languages.

In places like Little Pine, Moosomin, Mosquito Grizzly Bear's Head, Sweetgrass, Poundmaker and Red Pheasant First Nation, where my people are from, people have been talking for many years about their desire to see indigenous languages, such as the Cree language, heard and spoken in this place, the people's place. If Canada is to fulfill the dream we have for each other, if we are to fulfill the vision laid out for Canadians in our Constitution and our charter, then the full welcoming of indigenous languages into this House is long overdue. I think every party in the House can agree that if we are to truly be a great nation, all people should know that this is their nation, whether they have been here only one day or since time immemorial, since the rivers have flowed and the grasses have grown.

I would like to thank the members of the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs who spent innumerable hours fighting for indigenous languages in this House, the great hon. members for Yukon, St. Catharines, Halifax, Laurentides—Labelle, Winnipeg North, Brampton North, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, York Centre and Kitchener Centre and the now Minister of Seniors. These members, who are not indigenous, spent countless hours fighting for indigenous languages. Members from the loyal opposition as well as the third party also spent countless hours fighting for indigenous languages, even though there might be little or no benefit to them, to their families, to their personal histories or to their old vision of what Canada might have been. Nonetheless, they stood up for each and every one of us in Canada.

When I was first elected in 2015, I went to see Annette Trimbee, at the University of Winnipeg. We sat down for a lovely meeting, and she said there were a few things she needed help with. One was funding, but there was also a desire at the University of Winnipeg to expand language training.

When I was a professor at the University of Manitoba, I spent many years trying to increase the amount of language programming. The University of Winnipeg and Annette Trimbee were particularly interesting, because they wanted to combine it with modern technology and data. However, they lacked a large amount of metadata to feed the algorithms to ensure that they had adequate translation so that the computers would actually be able to properly translate indigenous languages. There are a lot of children's books, but they are often not written in a living language.

I would like to thank Wab Kinew who was the previous associate vice-president for indigenous relations at the University of Winnipeg. I would also like to thank Dr. Currie, the dean of arts; Dr. Glenn Moulaison, who also invested a large amount of personal time to learn indigenous languages. I would like to thank Dr. Jacqueline Romanow, who offers credit courses in Cree and Ojibwe. The language instructors in the department include Darren Courchene, Annie Boulanger and Ida Bear.

The department also supports an intensive two-week learn to speak Ojibwe program. The program is designed to teach beginner and intermediate Ojibwe and involves classroom and field work. The field work is held at the Medicine Eagle Camp and includes traditional teaching on medicine, beading and drumming. Funding for this has been provided by Indigenous and Northern Affairs Canada and Indigenous Services Canada.

There is also University of Winnipeg undergraduate student Cameron Lozinski, who is currently developing an app to make his ancestral language, Swampy Cree, more accessible.

Dr. Lorena Fontaine, academic indigenous lead at the University of Winnipeg completed her Ph.D. on aboriginal language rights in Canada. She was working with the Manitoba Aboriginal Languages Strategy, Red River College, with Rebecca Chartrand, the University College of the North, the University of Manitoba and the Manitoba provincial government to develop a certification program for aboriginal language speakers who are not teachers. She has also been an aboriginal language rights advocate for 12 years both nationally and internationally.

The university has also been bringing in faculty, students and the public to learn from, for example, Dr. Anton Treuer, professor of Ojibwe at Bemidji State University, and Octaviana Trujillo, professor of applied indigenous studies at Northern Arizona University.

Community programming continues to go on at the University of Winnipeg's Wii Chiiwaakanak Learning Centre, which provides options to the community to learn Ojibwe. Weekly classes are held free of charge for all ages, taught by Aandeg Muldrew. Aandeg is a linguistics student at the University of Manitoba, where he is also a sessional instructor for Ojibwe.

This is extremely important. All of these individuals have had a role in trying to get our languages to survive. There is currently no large-scale or government agency which would ensure that there is a central type of standardization, so that when we stand in the House of Commons, we would have an agreed-upon word for what it means to be a member of Parliament, otapapistamâkew. If we can get the Parliament of Canada to allow us to have greater translation, to have interpretation with interpreters from across Canada for the Cree language, working together, coming up with the actual specific terms and making indigenous languages living languages, like the French and English languages are, this would ensure that they can survive into the future so that my children will have the opportunity of actually turning on the television and being proud.

This all started not only with a conversation with Dr. Annette Trimbee, but when I stood up in this House to make a member's statement over a year and a half ago, I spoke only in Cree about violence against women for the Moose Hide Campaign, whose button I wear proudly on my lapel, and there was some laughter in the chamber because no one could understand what I was saying. I raised a question of privilege asking you, Mr. Speaker, whether my rights had been violated. You looked into the Standing Orders to discover if my rights had been violated or not and you determined that it was up to the House to decide. You took the sage decision to ask the PROC committee to investigate and come up with a report to use the processes that we have in this place to come up with the right decision.

As well as thanking other members in this House, I must thank you, Mr. Speaker, for taking that courageous decision to push this issue forward. If you had not done so, Mr. Speaker, I would have been very disappointed. Hopefully, your actions will allow my children's children to have the opportunity of speaking an indigenous language, which I think is the greatest gift you have given to this place in your time as Speaker. I look forward to reading the rulings you have made in the book that will come out once you are no longer Speaker. This decision, I believe, will be the very first one. It will be extremely important to the history of our nation and to what we have demonstrated we are able to do in this place.

I would like to thank you, Mr. Speaker, in Mi’kmaq, wo la la li uk, in Cree xsay, ekosani, in Anishinabe, meegwetch. I thank you from the bottom of my heart.

[Member spoke in Cree]

Procedure and House AffairsCommittees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

3:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Speaker Liberal Geoff Regan

May I say it is an honour to hear in this place the languages which have been spoken here in this land for thousands of years.

Questions and comments, the hon. member for Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River.

Procedure and House AffairsCommittees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

3:15 p.m.

NDP

Georgina Jolibois NDP Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK

Mr. Speaker,

[Member spoke in Dene]

I am curious. Today is a really remarkable day in moving forward, as we are building bridges and moving in the right direction. I understand that my colleague started off his speech with his language, and then stopped and delivered the rest of his speech in English. Can he explain why?

Procedure and House AffairsCommittees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

3:15 p.m.

Liberal

Robert-Falcon Ouellette Liberal Winnipeg Centre, MB

Mr. Speaker, the House of Commons only allows translation into English and French. However, it is my dream that one day in the future, when we tune into CPAC on the television, and as we have more indigenous members from across the country who are elected to the people's House, we can watch it in Cree, that a grandmother can watch the great debates of our Parliament. Also, young children will be able to hear that language in the background and know that it is important, that it is not a forgotten language and it is not something which is not worthwhile but is spoken and heard on TV and the Internet, and it has value. It has value to them and their self-esteem, and it will lift our people up and raise them so our young people can be successful and reach their full potential.

Procedure and House AffairsCommittees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

3:15 p.m.

Liberal

David Graham Liberal Laurentides—Labelle, QC

Mr. Speaker, the recommendations in the 66th report of PROC are specifically written in a way to allow and encourage members of the House of Commons who are not indigenous to learn those languages and use them in this place. I wonder if the member has any comments on the importance of that, as we have seen from our colleague from Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs in Montreal.

Procedure and House AffairsCommittees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

3:15 p.m.

Liberal

Robert-Falcon Ouellette Liberal Winnipeg Centre, MB

Mr. Speaker, actually, it was quite interesting when the member for Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs gave a speech in Mohawk. It was interesting to note that when I placed my video online of me speaking Cree, no one took much notice at first. A few people were interested. However, when a non-indigenous person took the time to speak Mohawk, people became very excited, and there were hundreds of thousands of views of that video. It made a lot of people quite proud, because it was not just an indigenous person trying to stand up in the House of Commons for his or her own language; it was others doing it for them.

The member has spent considerable hours learning the Mohawk language. He has been taking exams monthly and spending considerable hours on learning the language, not every day, but as much as he possibly can with his duties here in the House of Commons. It is a great thing when other MPs take the time to learn someone else's language, and in essence, the way people see the world and how they think, and to learn a culture. It shows a great openness and truly an open spirit of a nation-to-nation ideal.

Procedure and House AffairsCommittees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

3:20 p.m.

NDP

Marjolaine Boutin-Sweet NDP Hochelaga, QC

Mr. Speaker, Hochelaga was an indigenous village.

It is very symbolic to hear indigenous languages being spoken in the House of Commons of Canada. This is a huge step in the right direction.

My colleague spoke about languages that are disappearing and about older and younger people who sometimes no longer speak these languages. He also said that some people were teaching indigenous languages to others. The federal government could be helping elders in the community to teach languages to younger community members. I wonder if my colleague would agree.

Does he see a way that the federal government could help promote indigenous languages in indigenous communities?

Procedure and House AffairsCommittees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

3:20 p.m.

Liberal

Robert-Falcon Ouellette Liberal Winnipeg Centre, MB

Mr. Speaker, that would certainly help Canadians and indigenous peoples learn their own languages. It would also send a strong message that these languages matter.

This week, we heard debates on the pride that francophones have in their language, especially on this side of the House. The same is true for indigenous peoples, but the resources and teachers are often not there.

That is why it would be good to create a need for translators and interpreters who work in these languages right here, in the House. This would have the effect of spurring the development of university curriculums so that such services could eventually be offered across Canada. Over time, more and more people will want to be trained in teaching indigenous languages. This will give young people a chance to learn these languages as young kids. This would be a great source of pride.

Procedure and House AffairsCommittees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

November 29th, 2018 / 3:20 p.m.

NDP

Georgina Jolibois NDP Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK

Mr. Speaker,

[Member spoke in Dene]

[English]

Today is a big day for indigenous languages in the House of Commons. I am going to be splitting my comments in half today. First I will be speaking in English for the benefit of my colleagues, and afterward I will be making comments in my first language, Dene, which I will soon be able to speak more freely in this chambers.

I am very happy with the findings of the the procedure and House affairs committee report on the use of Indigenous languages in the House. I would like to give a special thanks to the members of the procedure and House affairs committee for their hard work and commitment. Adopting Indigenous languages into House business is no easy task, but because of the members, we are now one step closer to equal recognition.

[Member spoke in Dene]

[English]

As I have said many times, I am a Dene woman, and I grew up on a trap line in northern Saskatchewan. The large majority of people in my riding are Dene or Cree, first nation and Métis, and many people speak more than one language. The diversity of languages across the riding is awesome, yet challenging.

I recently had the privilege of attending the First Nations' Language Keepers Conference in Saskatoon, hosted by the Saskatchewan Indigenous Cultural Centre.

At the conference, I heard from educators like Julia Oullette, who teaches Cree to youth, using physical actions to get the kids moving around while they are learning. I heard from entertainers like Brian Waskewitch, who uses puppets to engage with small kids in Plains Cree, using language they will understand.

I also heard from the youth directly. Davis Horse from Thunderchild First Nation lives in a Cree-only household and encourages a traditional lifestyle for youth across Saskatchewan. I also met with Cameron Lozinski who is developing a smart phone app with his elders to help more young people access his language.

If I have one takeaway from my experience at this conference, it is that we must provide leadership and act as role models for young indigenous youth who want to speak their languages. First nations, Métis and Inuit languages are thriving across Canada, contrary to popular belief.

I am glad to see that the committee's report agrees that the House should build our capacity to speak our languages. Communicating with our constituents in the languages they speak is so important. Adopting this report may seem small, but it will have a significant impact in our communities, in our schools and in our homes.

We will be better able to speak about the issues that matter to them, like education, access to health care and northern infrastructure. An informed democracy is a strong democracy and adopting this report is a step in the right direction.

At this time, I am switching to my first language.

[Member spoke in Dene]

[English]

I just delivered a similar presentation in Dene.

At this time, for all Canadians from coast to coast to coast, we have this opportunity to acknowledge the indigenous languages across Canada, in the place of the federal government and in the House of Commons. We are able to speak in our languages and showcase our first language, which in my case is Dene. In my riding, I have Cree, three dialects, the Métis, the Michif, and other indigenous languages. It is a very significant step in the right direction. We are building bridges and reconciliation is beginning to occur.

Therefore, from the bottom of my heart, I want to thank all my friends on the committee, all members of Parliament and the government officials who helped make this happen.

You, too, Mr. Speaker, helped make it happen, so thank you from the bottom of my heart.

[Member spoke in Dene]

Procedure and House AffairsCommittees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

3:30 p.m.

Liberal

David Graham Liberal Laurentides—Labelle, QC

Mr. Speaker, I sincerely hope today is the last day we have to hear indigenous speeches in the House without the use of translation.

The opportunities are in this report. Should the member wish to speak in this way the next time, she will be able to inform the Table and interpretation will be provided. It is very sad to hear the interpreters' booth go silent when we are listening to a speech. I would have loved to have heard everything the member said in real time. This is more of a comment than a question.

I very much appreciate her pushing us to do this, to have participated in the study and to have demonstrated the importance and need for it in the House today.

Procedure and House AffairsCommittees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

3:30 p.m.

NDP

Georgina Jolibois NDP Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK

Mr. Speaker, when I started, I was able to deliver my version of my presentation in English. Then I delivered a version of my presentation in Dene. Unfortunately, the translation in Dene is not word for word. If I went word for word, it would be really confusing even for me to try to communicate.

I have the ability to think in Dene and the ability to think in English. I tried to look at the issue where the translators would be able to translate today. However, from this day forward, we can make that request and translators will be made available. Then the member will be able to hear that.

Procedure and House AffairsCommittees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

3:30 p.m.

NDP

Marjolaine Boutin-Sweet NDP Hochelaga, QC

Mr. Speaker, I noticed that when my colleague spoke in her language, her gestures were different. Language is intimately related to an individual's personality and culture.

I studied anthropology. When someone sets out to study a people they are unfamiliar with, they begin by studying vocabulary. Vocabulary reflects and describes a person's world. For example, Inuktitut has several words for snow because the people live in an often snowy world. Personally, I know just a few words for snow.

This is a good first step toward preserving indigenous languages and cultures. I would like my colleague to comment on that.

Procedure and House AffairsCommittees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

3:35 p.m.

NDP

Georgina Jolibois NDP Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK

Mr. Speaker, I am extremely fascinated by languages and hear Dene speak in their languages. When we speak our languages, we have a good sense of humour and we laugh a lot. When we speak English, we have a tendency to be a little more serious, because we are worried about making a mistake. I am so concerned about the way I speak English, but I am comfortable when I speak in Dene.

[Member spoke in Dene]

[English]

What we do is we look at translating how to soften the tone so we can engage and have a little humour attached to it so everybody can feel comfortable in communicating with one another.

When I was in Saskatoon, I heard from Cree-speaking Nakota, Dene and the other two languages in Saskatchewan. It was fascinating to hear young people speaking in Cree, Nakota and their languages. They are able to communicate in their first language.

Therefore, I am very fascinated by languages, the way we translate, how to make that happen and how we can grow more in Canada.

Procedure and House AffairsCommittees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

Candice Bergen Conservative Portage—Lisgar, MB

Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased to have the opportunity to speak today to the 66th report of the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs on the use of indigenous languages in House proceedings. I will be sharing my time with the hon. member for Lanark—Frontenac—Kingston.

It has been very good to hear my colleagues from both sides of the House speak to this already. It is very interesting. Personally, I am very inspired and encouraged by what I hear. My speech may be a little different, but it is wonderful that we can each bring our own perspective. My grand daughter's father is of Mennonite descent and her mother is Anishinaabe. I am so pleased to be able to share that heritage and so many wonderful things with my grand daughter.

I am also fortunate to have lived in Grand Rapids, Manitoba for a number of years. I learned at that time some wonderful church hymns in the Cree language. I will not be sharing those today, but it was a wonderful language and wonderful to be able to learn and share that language.

The report we are discussing today calls on us to decide on an appropriate balance between the use of indigenous languages in House proceedings and the ability of all members to comprehend those interventions. In principle, simultaneous interpretation of all indigenous languages sounds like it is a well-intentioned aspirational concept, but it is important that we be fully alert not only to many of the good consequences and good effects of this, but also maybe to some of the unintended consequences that could come of it.

I worry that unintended consequences will follow if we adopt the committee's report specifically as written. For starters, let me explain why. There are a dozen languages other than French and English spoken in Canada by more Canadians than all speakers of indigenous languages combined, namely, Spanish, Mandarin, Cantonese, Punjabi, Arabic, Tagalog, Italian, German, Hindi, Urdu, Portuguese and Russian. If we were to treat each indigenous language separately, and there are more than 60 of them, I could add yet another dozen languages that are more commonly spoken in Canada than Cree, the most common indigenous language.

As a result, as members we may find ourselves with new demands by constituents from among these 24 linguistic communities, or others, to speak for them in their language in the House. Today, I can say that Canada's official languages are spoken and readily understood in Parliament, with a small indulgence for modest pieces of other languages that members speak in this place from time to time. However, if interpretation facilities are in place for non-official languages, over time parliamentarians may be harder pressed to explain why interpretation is not also provided for other languages spoken in the House of Commons that may represent a large number of Canadians.

Another concern resulting from the law of unintended consequences with regard to the recommendations to arrange for interpreters is that Canada simply does not have a lot of people right now at the ready to become interpreters and to interpret speeches for us. According to the 2016 census, there are some 400 Canadians with a knowledge of indigenous languages who work in the interpretation and translation field. Considering that translators and interpreters do very different work, the Translation Bureau has an inventory of just 115 indigenous language interpreters on file. I understand that only three of them live in or are close to Ottawa. The rest live and work in communities across Canada, and often at quite a distance from Ottawa.

Consider the interpreters' time that would definitely be required. Though we might only be asking someone to come here to interpret a 10-minute speech, that might require them to dedicate two or more days to a single assignment, considering the travel required. That is time away from their providing important and necessary support in their home communities, support that is crucial to many Canadians' interactions with medical, government and legal services. I am thinking back to my time living in Grand Rapids, a very isolated community where these services could very much be used.

To satisfy this report and, truthfully, a few of us politicians here in Ottawa, who I am not saying should be disregarded, I do think that the needs of other Canadians and indigenous Canadians across the country should be put before our needs. That said, in order to satisfy our request, we would be asking what few interpreters there are to abandon their clients for days at a time. We run a serious risk of throwing into disarray those important services, potentially endangering many Canadians. That is a significant and legitimate concern, and it is one that I hope we have not overlooked.

Another concern is that despite the available pool of interpreters, most of them are simply not experienced at interpreting to and from French, which is another part of this. That would prompt the need for some of us to turn to what is called “relay interpretation”. Let me explain.

If we have someone speaking Cree that would need to be interpreted into English, then that English interpretation would need to be rendered into French. If we think of the expression “lost in translation”, which is a real phenomenon, that is likely what we could see happen with the use of relay interpretation.

Compounding this is subsection 4(3) of the Official Languages Act, which requires our debates to be recorded in one of the official languages and to be accompanied by a translation in the other official language. In fact, this could be unconstitutional.

Subsection 16(1) of the charter provides the following:

English and French are the official languages of Canada and have equality of status and equal rights and privileges as to their use in all institutions of the Parliament and government of Canada.

Relay interpretation might not honour these constitutional guarantees of equality of status and equal rights.

Those issues were a matter of concern earlier this year in the other place, when a report of the Senate's internal economy committee presented the views of its advisory working group on parliamentary translation services. I am going to quote from that report:

...the lack of high quality translation and interpretation services for the Senate also affects the rights of Canadians...the Senate has a constitutional duty to make services of equal quality available to the public in both official languages. Words matter; the Senate must do what it can to ensure that no matter what language is originally used, its publications and broadcasts reflect the very best translation and interpretation available so that all Canadians have equal access to the entire context of the debate and to its nuances.

If the equality of Canada's official languages is genuinely important to us, these unintended consequences, and more, should offer all of us pause. Of course, we are not talking here about the right to use an indigenous language in the House.

We are firm believers in the freedom of speech. The right of members to speak out in this chamber on behalf of their constituents is paramount. Speech goes to the very purpose of this institution. Its in the name, “Parliament”.

A very workable plan has been laid out, and I am going to quote the Speaker. He said:

....if members want to ensure that the comments they make in a language other than French or English can be understood by those who are following the proceedings and are part of the official record in the Debates, an extra step is required. Specifically, members need to repeat their comments in one of the two official languages so that our interpreters can provide the appropriate interpretation and so that they may be fully captured in the Debates.

I think this is a sensible and balanced approach that would minimize the unintended consequences while honouring the equality of the official languages.

This approach is done in the Legislative Assembly of the Northern Territory, an Australian jurisdiction where close to 20% of the population uses at least one of the territory's 100-plus aboriginal languages daily. Closer to home, in Yukon, the territorial legislature allows the use of English and French and what are called “Yukon aboriginal languages”, but there are no interpretation facilities.

I guess I would just wrap up by saying that we do believe that resources like these would be better used to help promote and support the indigenous peoples' languages. I understand the spirit of this report. I think we all support the spirit of this report, but I think there are more efficient ways we can accomplish the desired goals than by what has been laid out in the report.

Procedure and House AffairsCommittees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Robert-Falcon Ouellette Liberal Winnipeg Centre, MB

Mr. Speaker, it is my belief that parliamentarians have a constitutionally protected right to use an indigenous language in Parliament. Subsection 35(1) of the Constitution Act, 1982 states, “The existing aboriginal treaty rights of the aboriginal peoples of Canada are hereby recognized and affirmed.”

Do languages actually fall within these provisions? Professor Karen Drake has written about indigenous language rights in Canada pre-existing the Canadian state, and that these rights have not been extinguished and are still present. Others, like David Leitch and Lorena Fontaine, have been working toward launching a constitutional challenge, arguing that under subsection 35(1), the federal government not only has a negative obligation not to stifle aboriginal languages, but also a positive obligation to provide the resources necessary for the revitalization of those languages.

There are many sub-steps and different ideas that relate to this, especially within a decision in R. v. Van der Peet case that, “To be an aboriginal right an activity must be an element of a practice, custom or tradition integral to the distinctive culture of the aboriginal group claiming the right.” I believe that indigenous languages meet that constitutional requirement.

It is a very interesting argument concerning French and English, but indigenous languages are in fact the original languages of this land and deserve just as much respect. I understand that there are many people from around the world who have come to Canada and who speak other languages. If we looked, for instance, to other parliaments, such as in New South Wales in Australia—Australia was mentioned by the hon. member—it has introduced aboriginal language legislation to ensure the protection of the indigenous languages there, and the ability to hear those languages within the chamber and the provision of services relating to these languages.

Procedure and House AffairsCommittees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Candice Bergen Conservative Portage—Lisgar, MB

Mr. Speaker, we are in full agreement here. I agree that no one's right here to speak should ever be stopped. We all have a right to speak and to reflect our constituents' wishes, as well as our own thoughts.

However, we also all have a right to understand what is being spoken. What we are trying to do is to find the best way to do that, so that what I say in whatever language I choose to speak can be understood by each one of my hon. colleagues who are here duly elected by their constituents. What we are really aiming to do is to find that solution.

This report by the procedure and House affairs committee was reached in a real spirit of unity. It was done very well, and that is what we are looking at. Even though there may be parts of the report that we do not necessarily agree with, we agree with the spirit of it, that members should be allowed to speak and be able to understand what is being spoken. We definitely are all on the same page and we can find a solution.

Procedure and House AffairsCommittees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

3:45 p.m.

NDP

Georgina Jolibois NDP Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK

Mr. Speaker, what I would like to do at this time is make a comment and ask a question in English and then translate it into Dene so my constituents who speak Dene can hear what I am saying.

The comments I heard just now from the Conservative Party are the strength of colonialism and the strength of dismissing and destroying indigenous languages. The Conservatives promote that. As an indigenous Dene-speaking woman, my ancestors were born here first, where my homeland is. The Conservatives want me to dismiss that, because they want me to cater to them. For all of the youth and elders who have come before me and who will come after me, today is a most significant day toward moving forward. However, there is one remaining party that wishes to promote colonialism and that breaks my heart.

Having said that, as a Dene woman who was born in northern Saskatchewan, and who grew up on the trapline, I spoke Dene as a first language, and we are still promoting that. I have a constitutional right to speak in Dene, because my ancestors were here first.

[Member spoke in Dene]

[English]

I ask the member this. Why is she against the arguments surrounding our ability to speak Dene, Cree or other indigenous languages? Why are the Conservatives denying our rights?

Procedure and House AffairsCommittees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Candice Bergen Conservative Portage—Lisgar, MB

Mr. Speaker, I am very insulted by what I was just accused of. I am going to choose to take the high road. I want all of us in this House to be able to speak the language that we choose. Then, if we would like to be understood by everyone, we can say it in either English or French so it can be translated.

I sometimes think that instead of proposing a legitimate counter-argument the easy thing to do is call names. I find that very saddening, and disrespectful to this place.

I think we can continue this discussion and find a positive solution that will honour all Canadians, from every linguistic background, our first Canadians and new Canadians. That is our heart's desire, and that is the spirit contained in this report.

Procedure and House AffairsCommittees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Scott Reid Conservative Lanark—Frontenac—Kingston, ON

Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague from Portage—Lisgar for generously giving me half her time and the opportunity to speak on this subject. I was a member of the procedure and House affairs committee that dealt with this issue. I have some prepared remarks, but I am going to depart from them for the first part of my comments. It appears to me that a narrative has already been started that the procedure and House affairs committee proposed a system under which indigenous languages would be treated as being equal in debates in this place to French and English. Nothing could be further from the truth.

To point out just how great the restrictions are, which are placed upon indigenous languages by the procedure and House affairs committee, I am going to read from the recommendations in its report. There were only two recommendations. The second recommendation deals with expenses associated with being a user of indigenous language. The first one, and the one being discussed here so far is, “That the use of Indigenous languages be recognized in the House of Commons according to the process set out in this report” on page 25-26.

Page 26 of the report states:

...the Committee recommends that members [who wish to use an Indigenous language] be required to give reasonable notice in writing to the Clerk of the House of Commons of their intention to speak in an Indigenous language during a future sitting of the House or committee meeting. In practice, this notice requirement would be similar to that which exists in the Senate of Canada. In the Senate, reasonable notice is not defined; instead, the intention of the term “reasonable” is to provide for flexibility in finding available and qualified simultaneous interpreters. In the case of the House, prospectively, reasonable notice for Indigenous language use would include the time required to obtain interpretation services and make technical arrangements. In addition, the Committee acknowledges that the technical requirements for the use of Indigenous languages in the Chamber differ from those in House committees [where it would be yet more complicated].

To be clear about this, under the proposals made by the PROC committee, if members want to speak an indigenous language in the House of Commons, they are going to have to give substantial advance notice. Time will be required to contact a translator, have that translator come to the House of Commons and have them provide the translation. If it is for committee, a separate translation booth would need to be set up because there are no adequate facilities for the use of a third language, or the relay language process, in our committee rooms right now. We know this because the PROC committee itself had to go through this process, and it could not be done expeditiously.

All of this is by way of saying that if anybody thinks that the procedure and House affairs committee proposed a utopia in which people would stand up and speak an indigenous language with the same facility and immediate translation happening right now between French and English, they are sadly mistaken. If anybody criticizes my colleague and House leader for suggesting that we need to deal in a practical way with the situations that will arise all the time, where someone wants to stand and speak extemporaneously or on a debate that has arisen on short notice, something where we cannot bring a translator in from wherever that language is spoken in the country, then they need to know that using a system like the one my colleague suggested, which the Speaker suggested first, is the way to deal with this.

The person who is speaking the indigenous language speaks the indigenous language and then provides the translation into French or English. There is no other way we can think of to do it, and we racked our imaginations trying to think of other ways of doing it. There is no other practical way of allowing spontaneous participation to occur in this place. When a set piece is coming up, it is great, we can move to what the procedure and House affairs committee suggested. However, what my colleague suggested, what the Speaker suggested, about facilitating this is a reasonable solution.

It is also reasonable for the Speaker to do as he did today, which is to show some flexibility on the time when someone is using an indigenous language, so they can express themselves in both those languages, whether they use the indigenous language first, or as today, they speak in English or French and then go to the indigenous language. That is all my colleague was suggesting. That is a reasonable approach. There is no reason to attack my colleague, who has the best of intentions, who cares so deeply and who has, my goodness, a family that includes people who are speakers of an indigenous language.

To say this is some kind of colonial-mindedness is just wrong. The fact is, there is tolerance and openness throughout Canadian society, regardless of partisan divide, and turning this issue into a partisan issue when we had a report that all members of the House with good intentions participated in with good intentions, is just inappropriate.

We are discussing the 66th report of the procedure and House affairs committee. I want to discuss some significant practical facts. As members are no doubt aware, I wrote a book on Canada's official languages some 25 years ago. It came out in December of 1993. Here we are at the 25th anniversary since that was done. I did have a bit of an interest at the time, and I was therefore eager to add to my knowledge of Canada's indigenous languages when we had these hearings.

One of the things that is clear is that while we can talk about indigenous languages as a single group or concept, the reality is there are some indigenous languages that are spoken by a significant number of people, enough that they are not considered by linguistics experts to be in danger of extinction in the short run. Six of our 60 indigenous languages fit into this category. They are Cree, Dene, Innu, Inuktitut, Ojibway and Oji-Cree. Of those, Inuktitut is the standout. Its numbers are actually growing, partly because of the large birth rate up in Nunavut, and in part because of the environment. Being far away from English and French language centres has to some degree provided a natural layer of protection that was not afforded to other languages.

The remaining languages, although equally precious, to be clear, are in much greater danger, and there are practical difficulties associated with finding translators for some of those. On the other hand, the likelihood of having a speaker of one of the less-widely spoken languages in the Commons is considerably less than, for example, the virtually 100% chance that we will always have an Inuktitut speaker in the House of Commons.

I will go to the point about how seriously my party takes language rights in Canada, because we have been attacked today. I am going to make this point by turning to official language use and its history in Canada. The use of official languages in our parliamentary institutions has been an issue since 1791, when the Constitutional Act 1791 was passed. In January of 1793, there was debate in the legislative assembly of Lower Canada in which French was adopted as one of the official languages of that institution. With the British North America Act, or Constitution Act 1867, as it is now called, George-Étienne Cartier and Sir John A. Macdonald ensured that both French and English would be languages of this institution.

The translation bureau of the federal government was set in place under the government of R.B. Bennett, a Conservative prime minister. The Translation Bureau Act was enacted in 1934 and remains in effect to this day. In 1958, John George Diefenbaker brought in simultaneous translation to this place. Before that, when a member spoke in French, unilingual English members had no idea what that person was saying, and the reverse. That was opposed by many members, including many Liberal members. However, it was the right thing to do. Similarly, the most recent version of the Official Languages Act was passed by the government of Brian Mulroney.

On the issue of indigenous participation, I just want to point out that everyone knows that indigenous Canadians were deprived of the right to vote. They were given that right in 1960 by Diefenbaker's government. There had been an earlier attempt in 1885, under Sir John A. Macdonald's government, to introduce what they called the electoral franchise act, which gave indigenous Canadians the right to vote. That was opposed by parliamentary Liberals at the time. In 1898, that right was taken away.

There are no parties here who can say we have all been angels throughout our history on this subject. However, on this subject right now of trying to do what we all can to assist indigenous Canadians in being full participants in every aspect of Canadian life, including debates here, all parties stand on morally equal ground. We merely disagree on the practicalities of how best to achieve that common goal.

Procedure and House AffairsCommittees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

4 p.m.

Liberal

Robert-Falcon Ouellette Liberal Winnipeg Centre, MB

Mr. Speaker, when we saw the report, I was very moved by it. I accept that every party was putting forward their full desire, in a good way, to build the Canada we all deserve. I thank the hon. member for his hard work. I remember being at committee as a witness and having him ask me questions.

There is a certain practical nature to this and we are starting something. This is not utopia, as was mentioned. There are practical issues that need to be delved into as we move forward, such as giving two days or reasonable notice. I understand that. As we move forward, is there an interpreter available? There cannot be a question of privilege, if an interpreter is not available. We cannot waste time at the House.

However, as time moves forward, as these services develop, as perhaps members are elected who have a desire to speak one of the more common indigenous languages, then I suspect as we become more accustomed to how we go about that, as we come up with procedures that work in this place and as customs become unto our own, it will become easier and easier to offer indigenous languages.

This is truly a day to start and, in my heart, is a day to celebrate and rejoice about the work we have done in common cause.