House of Commons Hansard #382 of the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was snc-lavalin.

Topics

Opposition Motion—Transparency and AccountabilityBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

10:30 a.m.

Conservative

Peter Kent Conservative Thornhill, ON

Madam Speaker, for all members of the opposition and many members on the backbenches of the Liberal Party, my hon. colleague's speech contained some fairly profound truths.

With regard to the first question from the government side today about the investigation by the Ethics Commissioner, I wonder if my friend could recall the Ethics Commissioner's eventual report on the Prime Minister's illegal Caribbean vacation, when the Prime Minister delayed for months a request to meet with the commissioner to discuss the allegations against him. I wonder if the Liberals are hoping the commissioner's investigation will be delayed until they can run for the hills in the summer recess.

Opposition Motion—Transparency and AccountabilityBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

10:30 a.m.

NDP

Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON

Madam Speaker, my hon. colleague is laying out a very important point, which is that the government is trying to walk the clock down on one of the worst corruption scandals in memory.

I would say this for my Liberal backbencher friends, who do not get called by lobbyists, who came here to do the right thing, who have to hide behind this terrible scandal. The easiest thing would be for the Liberals to be given the opportunity to go back to their voters and say that they are not a party of corruption, that as individual backbench members, they have came here to do good things. When someone is alleged to have been involved in trying to undermine a legal investigation, that is why it needs to be investigated. It should not be hidden or put under the carpet.

Now that Gerry Butts is gone, I am sure he would be more than willing to be subpoenaed. I am sure sunny ways may not be completely dead, but the sun is certainly disappearing from the horizon. I am asking the Liberal backbenchers not to go along with that front bench, not to get led by the nose, to stand up, do the right thing and vote with us. This is about accountability to the Canadian people.

Opposition Motion—Transparency and AccountabilityBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

10:30 a.m.

Liberal

Ken McDonald Liberal Avalon, NL

Madam Speaker, the member started off his speech today, saying that it was a demotion for a minister to be moved from one portfolio to another one. Could he please explain to veterans and the House how veterans are any less than any other department in our county?

Opposition Motion—Transparency and AccountabilityBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

10:30 a.m.

NDP

Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON

Madam Speaker, I would ask my hon. colleague this. Who in the Prime Minister's Office was phoning the media and making comments about the justice minister? They said that she thought that because she was indigenous and a woman, she would be treated differently in the Liberal government. Obviously not.

I would ask my hon. colleague this. Who in the Prime Minister's Office did the character assassination against her? That is a nice, simple question.

Opposition Motion—Transparency and AccountabilityBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

10:35 a.m.

NDP

The Assistant Deputy Speaker NDP Carol Hughes

I just want to remind the member for Avalon that he had an opportunity to ask a question. If he has other questions he should wait until we go back to questions and comments.

Resuming debate, the hon. member for Sherbrooke.

Opposition Motion—Transparency and AccountabilityBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

10:35 a.m.

NDP

Pierre-Luc Dusseault NDP Sherbrooke, QC

Madam Speaker, I am pleased rise after my colleague from Timmins—James Bay to speak to the important revelations that have emerged, some of which came to light last week.

We already had concerns about potential political interference by the PMO and the Prime Minister himself in the case against SNC-Lavalin when we left to go back to our ridings over a week and a half ago. This is a very important criminal case, given that the company has engaged in many rather shady dealings involving corruption in other countries. Many questions were raised at that time which have yet to be answered. No clarification has been given since the first time this allegation was raised a week and a half ago.

On the contrary, many other questions have been raised since we left the House on February 8. At that time, the veterans affairs minister was still in cabinet, but she resigned last week. What is more, the Prime Minister's principal secretary also resigned last week.

Today, the Liberals would have us believe that they have absolutely nothing to hide, that the government is being transparent and that we have to get our answers somewhere else. However, all these events happened within a week, not to mention that the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner has launched an investigation into the matter, which only happens when there are questions on the issue brought to his attention. Today, I am sure that the government will keep trying to have us believe that this is a non-issue, but that is absolutely not true.

A lot of questions need to be answered. That is why the NDP is calling for an independent public inquiry. What is more, the Liberals used their majority on the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights to simply refuse to shed light on whether the Prime Minister's Office interfered with the former attorney general of Canada regarding the SNC-Lavalin trial. This is a fundamental question that deserves answers. Given that the standing committee refused to look into this, we are calling for a public inquiry. Clearly, the Liberal majority has no intention of shedding light on this issue.

In reality, the Liberals are trying to distract us by calling people who are not involved in this issue to testify. They are trying to create distractions to divert our attention. They obviously have something to hide. I find it hard to believe that a minister and the Prime Minister's principal secretary would resign when a scandal broke if they had nothing to hide. That is why we need to shed light on this whole business.

We need to launch a public inquiry to clear up the issue of political interference, because our justice system is founded on the independence of the courts and the Public Prosecution Service of Canada. That independence is enshrined in law. The Attorney General cannot give these kinds of directions willy-nilly, or with a simple phone call. The Attorney General is required to follow clear procedures when giving directions to the Public Prosecution Service of Canada to influence the conduct of penal and criminal prosecutions.

These protections exist for a reason. Our laws are designed to guard against political interference in the judicial process, in order to avoid the slightest suspicion that the justice system might be politicized. That independence is the cornerstone of our system. Today, the independence of the court system is being called into question because of potential, attempted or actual political interference by the Prime Minister, his office and his principal secretary. The public inquiry will determine which one of those it was. For now, we do not know why the Prime Minister's principal secretary resigned, but I believe that launching an independent public inquiry is warranted.

The NDP also feels that we need to consider the employees of SNC-Lavalin. In the wake of this political interference scandal, they are worried about their future, and I can understand why.

That is why the focus today is not SNC-Lavalin, but the Prime Minister's government. His very office has brought the independence of our country's judiciary into question. That is the issue, not SNC-Lavalin, which is currently dealing with legal problems and irregularities with the awarding of foreign contracts. Naturally, this raises questions, but the employees work in good faith to support their families and they do their best every day.

The SNC-Lavalin executives are the real focus. That is why it is important to ensure that the most senior executives of the company, who were involved in the corruption at the time, are brought to justice. It is unfortunate that today we are seeing these executives get off scot-free, even though they have committed serious crimes, because of the administrative delays in the justice system.

I can understand that Canadians are worried about a company getting off so easily in such a terrible case of foreign government corruption. That is why we must absolutely look into this issue and into the political interference in our judicial system. It is extremely important to ensure public confidence. Canadians are increasingly under the impression that the government only looks after the interests of Canada's biggest players, the corporations and their executives. The government seems to listen to them very carefully when they want something. Whether it is SNC-Lavalin or KPMG, for example, the Liberal government seems to lend them a very receptive ear when some of their business practices are called into question.

SNC-Lavalin is a good example. KPMG is another. When push comes to shove, the Liberals always give priority to corporate interests over the interests of workers, as we saw with Sears and GM. They could care less about the workers, which is why we need to be thinking about them today. We must make sure that workers and the public interest are foremost in our discussions and in our minds, in every decision the government makes. It is quite clear that, in many areas, the government cares only about its buddies who give them hundreds of thousands of dollars. In the past, some companies that seem to have this government's ear have sometimes made illegal donations.

The other part of the problem I want to talk about is the political influence that SNC-Lavalin had in the debate on Bill C-74. I was on the Standing Committee on Finance when the bill was studied. I asked the official what motivated the idea of a deferred prosecution agreement, and she seemed to be rather alone and a little unprepared for the many questions from the opposition and the government. The member for Hull—Aylmer asked a number of questions, including some on division 20 of Bill C-74. Although I asked which cases and files could have motivated such a bill, this official was not able to provide a single specific case. She was obviously trying to evade the question, but there was clearly something fishy going on.

This part of Bill C-74 seems to have been drafted for a specific case, namely, SNC-Lavalin. This company had been asking for such a measure for many years, and it kept asking until it was successful. Once this happened, the company continued to lobby to get this bill passed and to make sure that the Attorney General would grant this deferred agreement.

This deferred agreement has not yet been granted, which may be why the former justice minister stepped down. We must adopt this motion today so that we can get to the bottom of this affair and make sure that there was no political interference and that there will not be any under the next government.

I move:

That the motion be amended by adding the following after the word “Act”:

“and to report back to the House no later than May 31, 2019,”

Opposition Motion—Transparency and AccountabilityBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

10:45 a.m.

NDP

The Assistant Deputy Speaker NDP Carol Hughes

It is my duty to inform hon. members that an amendment to an opposition motion may be moved only with the consent of the sponsor of the motion.

Therefore, I ask the hon member for Timmins—James Bay if he consents to this amendment being moved.

Opposition Motion—Transparency and AccountabilityBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

10:45 a.m.

NDP

Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON

Madam Speaker, yes, of course.

Opposition Motion—Transparency and AccountabilityBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

10:45 a.m.

Arif Virani Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada and to the Minister of Democratic Institutions, Lib.

Madam Speaker, I thank the member for Sherbrooke for his comments.

There is one thing I would like to point out, and I have two questions.

We already have remediation agreements in many countries around the world, so painting this as an anomaly is not correct. In the United States, they have existed since the 1990s. They have also existed in Britain since 2014.

As the member is from Quebec, I want to ask him about his perspective on SNC-Lavalin and its economic importance, not only to that province but to the entire country vis-à-vis an aspect of the remediation agreement that is in place. That aspect calls for responsibility to be taken by a corporate offender through an admission of responsibility, a forfeit of any benefit, participation in further investigations, and paying of a penalty.

Is that the type of regime that allows corporate entities to take responsibility, demonstrate that to Canadians, and at the same time continue to provide the economic benefits that they do in his province of Quebec?

Opposition Motion—Transparency and AccountabilityBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

10:45 a.m.

NDP

Pierre-Luc Dusseault NDP Sherbrooke, QC

Madam Speaker, I thank my colleague for that very good question.

As I said earlier, the company directors should personally be brought to justice for their wrongdoing. Unfortunately, that is not what is happening right now. They have managed to get off the hook because of the delays in the legal proceedings. Frankly, the company has to pay for its behaviour in some way.

We cannot give corporations a free pass when they conduct shady business abroad.

It is certainly important that there be consequences for the people involved. I think that in some cases, the company has to take some responsibility for the corporate culture that is at issue. It is not just the individuals who are responsible on the basis of their roles within the company. There is also a corporate culture that is sometimes to blame and that should be overhauled.

The public prosecution service must be given the latitude to determine the best course of action. There is no room for political interference by the government due to pressure from its friends.

Opposition Motion—Transparency and AccountabilityBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

10:50 a.m.

Conservative

Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB

Madam Speaker, it is very interesting that the parliamentary secretary wants to talk about remediation agreements now, as he did not want to talk about them previously. One was narrowly slipped into a budget bill, and it did not have the scrutiny that we would normally expect when making this kind of expansive change to the Criminal Code.

In fact, the former minister of justice, the former attorney general, did not even come to committee to testify about this. A parliamentary secretary went instead. This is very revealing regarding the concerns that the former minister likely had at the time.

The government wants to make this about the type of investigation that could happen and where. As the NDP also understands, there cannot be an effective investigation unless and until the government waives solicitor-client privilege and allows the former attorney general to speak about this. If the government wants a meaningful investigation, regardless of who is doing it, solicitor-client privilege must be waived.

Could the member share more about why solicitor-client privilege is so important for allowing Canadians to get to the bottom of this issue, regardless of who does the investigation?

Opposition Motion—Transparency and AccountabilityBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

10:50 a.m.

NDP

Pierre-Luc Dusseault NDP Sherbrooke, QC

Madam Speaker, the short answer is that I completely agree. That is why our motion calls for waiving solicitor-client privilege. That is extremely important. A public inquiry cannot move forward with this veil of secrecy shrouding the former justice minister. Openness and transparency are needed, and that is what is behind our motion.

If the government truly has nothing to hide, as it keeps saying, then when will it lift this veil of secrecy over the former minister of justice and attorney general of Canada?

Opposition Motion—Transparency and AccountabilityBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

10:50 a.m.

Arif Virani Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada and to the Minister of Democratic Institutions, Lib.

Madam Speaker, I am pleased to have the opportunity to speak to the principles of solicitor-client privilege in a government context.

According to the authors, Manes and Silver, the origin of the law of solicitor-client privilege goes back to Tudor times in England and originated as respect for the oath and honour of a lawyer who is duty bound to guard communications with clients. At first, that duty was restricted to an exemption only from testimonial compulsion, that it was the right of the lawyer or client to refuse to testify in court regarding confidential communications. Later, as the law of privilege evolved over time, confidentiality expanded from communications in the context of litigation to any communication for legal advice.

Confidentiality in the communication between the solicitor and the client became a benchmark. It was supposed that if the consultation between the client and the solicitor could not be kept confidential, then clients might be less inclined to be forthcoming with their lawyers, thus reducing the quality of advice that a lawyer could give.

In Canada, over the last few decades, solicitor-client privilege has evolved from not simply a mere rule of evidence to a substantive rule of law, as well as a principle of fundamental justice that is captured within the meaning of section 7 of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. The Supreme Court of Canada has described it as “a principle of fundamental justice and a civil right of supreme importance in Canadian law”.

Today, the Supreme Court of Canada recognizes the great importance of solicitor-client privilege and the unique role that it plays in our legal system. Solicitor-client privilege is nothing short of a cornerstone of our legal system, regardless of the nature or context of the legal opinion sought.

What is the raison d'être of solicitor-client privilege? Our legal system is very complex. The complexity of rules and procedures is such that in the Supreme Court's view, realistically speaking, it cannot be navigated without a lawyer's expert advice. It is in the public interest that this free flow of legal advice be encouraged. Let me repeat that because it is so tellingly important: It is in the public interest that this free flow of legal advice be encouraged between lawyers and their clients.

The integrity of the administration of justice depends on the unique role of the solicitor who provides legal advice to these clients. Because of that importance, the Supreme Court has often stated that solicitor-client privilege, this cornerstone of our legal system, should not be interfered with unless absolutely necessary. It must remain as close to absolute as possible, with very few exceptions. As such, the Supreme Court of Canada has adopted stringent norms to ensure its protection.

The gatekeepers of the solicitor-client privilege are the lawyers themselves. They act and are ethically bound to protect the privileged information that belongs to their clients. What is it exactly that is subject to this stringently protected category of solicitor-client privilege? It is privilege that will attach to every communication between a lawyer and a client that is for the purposes of giving and receiving legal advice and that is intended to be confidential.

The privileged nature of a document or the information it contains does not depend on the category of the document but on its content and what it can reveal about the relationship and communication between a client and his or her notary or lawyer. All communications between a solicitor and a client directly related to the seeking, formulating or giving of legal advice are privileged, along with communications within the continuum in which the solicitor tenders advice.

According to the Federal Court, the continuum protected by privilege includes “matters great and small at various stages…includ[ing] advice as to what should prudently and sensibly be done in the relevant legal context” and other matters “directly related to the performance by the solicitor of his professional duty as legal advisor to the client.”

In determining where the protected continuum ends, one good question is whether a communication forms “part of that necessary exchange of information of which the object is the giving of legal advice”.

If so, it is within the protected continuum. Put another way, does the disclosure of the communication have the potential to undercut the purpose behind the privilege, namely, the need for solicitors and their clients to freely and candidly exchange information and advice so that clients can know their true rights and obligations and act upon them?

For example, where a director of a government department receives legal advice on how certain proceedings should be conducted and the director so instructs those conducting proceedings, the instructions, essentially cribbed from the legal advice, form part of the continuum and are protected. Disclosing such a communication would undercut the ability of the director to freely and candidly seek legal advice.

Public sector counsel is in the same position as private sector in-house counsel with regard to solicitor-client privilege. The client of government lawyers is the Crown, that is the executive. The Supreme Court of Canada has recognized that solicitor-client privilege attaches to communications between government employees and government lawyers, many of whom belong to the Department of Justice.

As stated by the Federal Court, “The Attorney General and those working for him [or her] as legal advisors are solicitors for the purposes of advising the executive branch of the government of Canada.”

In the public sector as well, solicitor-client privilege has permanence. The privilege belongs to the client not to the lawyer. Courts will not permit a lawyer to disclose a client's confidence. Solicitor-client privilege enjoys a status more elevated than that enjoyed by almost any other recognized privilege, given the central role that this doctrine plays in the effective operation of our legal system, and has for centuries. It is in the public interest that the free flow of legal advice between a lawyer and a client be encouraged and protected. As noted by the Supreme Court of Canada in the 2008 Blood Tribe decision, “Without it, access to justice and the quality of justice in this country would be severely compromised.”

As previously mentioned, solicitor-client privilege attaches to communications between solicitors and their clients, communications concerning a consultation, or legal advice that the parties intend to be confidential.

In the government context, the client is the Crown. Who can waive the privilege within government can be a complicated question. Court decisions considering this question have often been inconsistent. However, consistent guidance has been provided on when privilege can be considered to have been waived, whether in the private or public sector context.

For a waiver to occur, the client must be aware of the existence of the privilege and voluntarily express the intent to waive it.

For waiver to occur, disclosure must be voluntary. Courts will only find waiver, whether express or implied waiver, when they are of the view that an objective consideration of the client's conduct demonstrates an intention to waive privilege. For example, this may occur where the privileged communication is shared with a third party, or where the privileged communication is relied on as an element of one's claim or defence. Disclosure compelled by statute is not voluntary and, therefore, cannot constitute waiver of solicitor-client privilege. This is sometimes called the limited waiver exception in legal parlance. It should not be confused with the doctrine of partial waiver, to which I will now turn.

It should not be assumed that if a client waives privilege over one communication that privilege over every other communication is also waived. Clients, the holders of the privilege, have the ability to waive privilege over none, some or all of the confidential communications they have with their lawyers. In considering whether a partial waiver, meaning a voluntary waiver over a particular piece of privileged advice, resulted in a broader waiver, courts will consider all of the factual and surrounding circumstances.

The answer is never easy. As in the case of a partial waiver, it is also the case that not every disclosure will result in a waiver of solicitor-client privilege. For example, common interest privilege allows parties with interests in common to share certain privileged information without waiving the privilege at all. The roots of common interest privilege as an exemption to the waiver are in the litigation context, where sharing in the contents of reasonably anticipated litigation does not result in a waiver of litigation privilege itself.

Some courts have also extended common law interest outside of litigation to the commercial transactions context. Parties that have a common interest in the successful completion of such a transaction may be able to share solicitor-client privileged materials without a waiver occurring. As with traditional solicitor-client privilege, the communication between the parties sharing the common interest must be made on a confidential basis.

I have just referred to what is known as litigation privilege. Litigation privilege protects against the compulsory disclosure of communications and documents with the dominant purpose of the preparation of litigation. Although litigation privilege differs from solicitor-client privilege in several respects, the two concepts overlap to some extent. The classic examples of items to which litigation privilege applies are the lawyer's file and oral or written communications between a lawyer and third parties, such as witnesses or experts, prepared in the context of reasonably anticipated litigation.

Litigation privilege is a common law rule of English origin. It was introduced in Canada in the 20th century as a privilege linked to solicitor-client privilege, which at the time was considered to be a rule of evidence necessary to ensure the proper conduct of trials and legal proceedings. Because of these origins, litigation privilege has sometimes been confused with solicitor-client privilege, but indeed the two are distinct even though they overlap at times.

However, since the Supreme Court of Canada rendered its decision in the case of Blank v. Canada in 2006, it has been settled law that solicitor-client privilege and litigation privilege are distinguishable. In Blank v. Canada, the Supreme Court of Canada stated, “They often co-exist and one is sometimes mistakenly called by the other’s name, but they are not coterminous in space, time or meaning.”

In that decision, the Supreme Court of Canada identified the following differences between the two concepts. The purpose of solicitor-client privilege is to protect a relationship, while that of litigation privilege is to ensure the efficacy of the adversarial process. On the one hand, solicitor-client privilege is permanent, whereas litigation privilege is temporary and lapses when the litigation ends. Unlike solicitor-client privilege, litigation privilege applies to non-confidential documents. Litigation privilege is not directed at communications between the solicitor and client as such.

The Supreme Court of Canada also stated, “Unlike the solicitor-client privilege, [litigation privilege] is neither absolute in scope nor permanent in duration.”

While it is true that in the decision of Blank v. Canada the Supreme Court of Canada identified clear differences between litigation privilege and solicitor-client privilege, it also recognized that they do have some characteristics in common. For example, the court noted that the two privileges “serve a common cause: The secure and effective administration of justice according to law.”

More specifically, litigation privilege serves that cause by ensuring “the efficacy of the adversarial process” and maintaining “a protected area to facilitate investigation and preparation of a case for trial by the adversarial advocate.”

Opposition Motion—Transparency and AccountabilityBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

11:05 a.m.

NDP

The Assistant Deputy Speaker NDP Carol Hughes

I am sorry to interrupt, but there is a lot of talk going on right now and this room echoes. I ask members to please respect the fact that there is a session going on right now and that there are people speaking. In preparation for questions and comments, I ask members to take their conversations outside.

The hon. parliamentary secretary.

Opposition Motion—Transparency and AccountabilityBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

11:05 a.m.

Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada and to the Minister of Democratic Institutions, Lib.

Arif Virani

Madam Speaker, to justify these requirements, the Supreme Court of Canada relied on the unique and foundational importance of solicitor-client privilege, which is “fundamental to the proper functioning of our legal system.”

The Supreme Court cited a significant body of case law to the effect that the privilege is a “fundamental policy of the law” that must be as close to absolute as possible to ensure public confidence and retain relevance. In that case, the court also noted that solicitor-client privilege is of paramount importance because it promotes access to justice, the quality of justice and the free flow of legal advice.

There is of course no question that litigation privilege does not have the same status as solicitor-client privilege and that the former is less absolute than the latter. It is also clear that these two privileges, even though they may sometimes apply to the same documents, are conceptually distinct. Nonetheless, like solicitor-client privilege, litigation privilege is “fundamental to the proper functioning of our legal system”. It is central to Canada's adversarial system.

As a number of courts have already pointed out, the Canadian justice system promotes the search for truth by allowing the parties to put their best cases before the court, thereby enabling the court to reach a decision with the best information possible. The parties’ ability to confidently develop strategies knowing that they cannot be compelled to disclose them is essential to the effectiveness of this process.

In Canada, litigation privilege is therefore inextricably linked to certain founding values and is of fundamental importance. The Supreme Court of Canada has concluded that litigation privilege, like solicitor-client privilege, cannot be abrogated by inference and that clear, explicit and unequivocal language is required in order to lift it.

I would like to conclude on that note by thanking you, Madam Speaker, for allowing me the opportunity to canvass these important issues of solicitor-client privilege and the privilege concept more generally. It is a concept well known in law and well known to the lawyers who participate in this House. It is a fundamental aspect of our legal system, founded upon hundreds of years of jurisprudence that dates back to our commonwealth heritage.

Opposition Motion—Transparency and AccountabilityBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

11:05 a.m.

NDP

Tracey Ramsey NDP Essex, ON

Madam Speaker, my colleague, the MP for Parkdale—High Park, went into one aspect of the motion today, solicitor-client privilege. I did not hear him speak about the launch of a public inquiry.

I have to say that over the last week, I have been hearing from my constituents, as I am sure he has in Parkdale—High Park, about what we have watched unfold on the national stage and the questions Canadians legitimately have about what the truth is in this situation. The member referenced the legal system seeking to shine a light on the truth. Today is an opportunity for Liberals in this House to do the same, to shine a light on that truth.

To a government that promised to be accountable and transparent, and to the member for Parkdale—High Park, why will the member not support a public investigation into these deeply troubling allegations?

Opposition Motion—Transparency and AccountabilityBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

February 19th, 2019 / 11:10 a.m.

Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada and to the Minister of Democratic Institutions, Lib.

Arif Virani

Madam Speaker, I thank the member for Essex for her contributions in this House today and on other occasions.

In respect of the second part of the motion, it is clear that what is being sought in the motion presented by the members opposite is a public inquiry. I would return to the intervention I made earlier today, which was that in this context, on a matter on which transparency is wanted and clearly sought on both sides of the chamber, the Ethics Commissioner's investigation that has been opened on this matter provides a more robust mechanism for that investigation. It provides for clearer tools that can be used, greater powers that can be used, and most important, an apolitical and non-partisan forum for seeking that information being sought.

In response to the question from the member for Essex, that forum is clearly a more appropriate forum, given the tenor of the debate we have seen in just the first hour of debate on this motion.

Opposition Motion—Transparency and AccountabilityBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Marilyn Gladu Conservative Sarnia—Lambton, ON

Madam Speaker, the member talked about solicitor-client privilege. The current Attorney General stood in this House and said that the Prime Minister and the PMO did not pressure him, and he was able to do that without violating his solicitor-client privilege. That means that the former attorney general could stand and say the same thing without violating her solicitor-client privilege. The Prime Minister said that the fact that she is in cabinet speaks for itself, and then she resigned from cabinet and lawyered up. To clear all this up, would the member agree that if there is really nothing sinister going on, the former attorney general could stand and simply repeat what the current Attorney General said?

Opposition Motion—Transparency and AccountabilityBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

11:10 a.m.

Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada and to the Minister of Democratic Institutions, Lib.

Arif Virani

Madam Speaker, in terms of the statements made by the current Attorney General in this chamber in respect of what involvement or communications he has had, I would simply note, for the purpose of this debate, and also for the members of this House, who I presume are very well aware, because they are reading the same media coverage I am reading, that the very issue of the nature of the privilege is the subject matter of legal advice being sought by the former minister.

Secondarily, in the context of my intervention, I indicated that the issue of a potential waiver of privilege is always case dependent, and needs to be, for the purpose of a full and rigorous legal analysis. Therefore, moving that there be a waiver or implied waiver at this juncture is simply inappropriate for the purposes of this debate.

Opposition Motion—Transparency and AccountabilityBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

11:10 a.m.

Bloc

Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC

Madam Speaker, the motion moved by our NDP colleagues is entirely appropriate for one aspect of this scandal, namely the disastrous mismanagement shown by the Prime Minister's Office. Our colleagues who sponsored the motion are right to say that we need to hear from Ms. Wilson-Raybould and that we need a public inquiry. I support these requests—

Opposition Motion—Transparency and AccountabilityBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

11:10 a.m.

NDP

The Assistant Deputy Speaker NDP Carol Hughes

I would remind hon. members that they are not to mention other members by name. They must only refer to them by title or by name of riding.

Opposition Motion—Transparency and AccountabilityBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

11:10 a.m.

Bloc

Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC

Madam Speaker, you are right. I apologize.

Regarding the utter mismanagement, I absolutely agree with the position taken by our colleagues from the second opposition party. I support a public inquiry and I agree that the former attorney general of Canada should testify.

That said, we must also consider the equally devastating consequences of this scandal on the third parties involved, namely, the SNC-Lavalin workers, who have nothing to do with the fraudulent acts committed by the former executives at that company. For the workers, suppliers and other third parties who do business with SNC-Lavalin, reaching a remediation agreement seems crucial to me.

Why is there nothing in the motion moved by the second opposition party regarding the importance of reaching a remediation agreement as well as protecting Quebec's civil engineers and their expertise?

Opposition Motion—Transparency and AccountabilityBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

11:10 a.m.

Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada and to the Minister of Democratic Institutions, Lib.

Arif Virani

Madam Speaker, this does not happen very often, but in this case, I actually agree with the Bloc Québécois member. I must point out that he is representing his constituents in the province of Quebec.

As I mentioned earlier in this debate, remediation agreements already exist all around the world, particularly in the United States and Great Britain. It is also important to note that having a system of remediation agreements enshrined in law does mean giving businesses a free pass.

What I will explain in English is that there are aspects of this that require an admission of responsibility, that require penalties to be paid, that require the forfeiture of funds and that require participation in ongoing investigations to address the very needs outlined by the member opposite that take into account the very significant needs of workers, not just in his riding in Quebec but throughout the province of Quebec and throughout Canada, who worked directly or indirectly with an entity as large as the entity being implicated here.

Opposition Motion—Transparency and AccountabilityBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

11:15 a.m.

Winnipeg North Manitoba

Liberal

Kevin Lamoureux LiberalParliamentary Secretary to the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons

Madam Speaker, through a question, my colleague talked about the Ethics Commissioner. The Ethics Commissioner is an independent officer of Parliament. I wonder if the member could explain the difference between the ethics officer, for example, and a standing committee. A standing committee might have a very strong partisan element. Could he expand on his thoughts on the two?

Opposition Motion—Transparency and AccountabilityBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

11:15 a.m.

Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada and to the Minister of Democratic Institutions, Lib.

Arif Virani

Madam Speaker, the Ethics Commissioner's investigation is important.

First of all, the actual investigation was sought by the opposition and was agreed to on the part of the Ethics Commissioner.

Second, the Ethics Commissioner is independent of any of the parties in the chamber. The Ethics Commissioner is appointed by Parliament and responds to Parliament. The Ethics Commissioner also has more robust mechanisms, including the powers of subpoena, of compelling documents and of compelling information from individuals.

Most important, the Ethics Commissioner operates outside of what is, unfortunately, some of the political theatre that surrounds us in what we do, which Canadians are now seeing even in the context of today's debate. Partisanship is part of this process, which we all knew when we signed up to run for office. However, sometimes partisanship is not the best antidote for what is clearly an important question Canadians are seeking clarity on. In that context, a non-partisan, apolitical investigation, led by a person without political affiliation, outside the realm of theatre, is likely much more appropriate and will provide a much more measured response.