House of Commons Hansard #393 of the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was justice.

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Interim EstimatesGovernment Orders

March 21st, 9:45 a.m.

NDP

Ruth Ellen Brosseau NDP Berthier—Maskinongé, QC

It was the other way around. Anyway, the Speaker at the time ruled and said that the member would have to apologize when she came back to the House. The member has been back a few times. She has actually voted. We are waiting for her apology, because we do have rules of decorum in this House. I know we are all very tired, but we have to be collegial and we have to be respectful. I think the comments made to the member for Carleton and to her colleague in the Liberal caucus who spoke out in a recent article in Maclean's were completely disrespectful.

Interim EstimatesGovernment Orders

March 21st, 2019 / 9:45 a.m.

The Speaker Geoff Regan

The member for Cowichan—Malahat—Langford is, I think, rising on the same point of order. I think he will find that I have some sympathy for what I am hearing about what I have just heard from the hon. member for Berthier—Maskinongé. I appreciate her clarification as well as the comments earlier from the hon. member for Perth—Wellington.

Interim EstimatesGovernment Orders

March 21st, 9:45 a.m.

NDP

Alistair MacGregor NDP Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC

Mr. Speaker, very briefly, the reason I raised the point of order is that I think we can all agree that the member for Markham—Stouffville is a very well respected member in this chamber who commands a lot of respect. I just thought that, given the language I heard, it might be appropriate for the member for Don Valley East to stand up and take that word back, because that person is a highly respected member of the House. We are all very tired, but we deserve to treat each other with courtesy and respect in this chamber. Just because the member for Markham—Stouffville stood up for her principles does not mean that she should be subject to that kind of language.

Interim EstimatesGovernment Orders

March 21st, 9:50 a.m.

The Speaker Geoff Regan

It appears to me from what I am hearing that an unparliamentary word was used. I would ask the hon. member for Don Valley East to withdraw the word and to apologize.

Interim EstimatesGovernment Orders

March 21st, 9:50 a.m.

Liberal

Yasmin Ratansi Liberal Don Valley East, ON

Mr. Speaker, I would like to clarify.

Interim EstimatesGovernment Orders

March 21st, 9:50 a.m.

Some hon. members

Oh, oh!

Interim EstimatesGovernment Orders

March 21st, 9:50 a.m.

Liberal

Yasmin Ratansi Liberal Don Valley East, ON

Mr. Speaker, it is my turn to speak.

Interim EstimatesGovernment Orders

March 21st, 9:50 a.m.

The Speaker Geoff Regan

Order. I do need order. I do need to hear the hon. member.

Interim EstimatesGovernment Orders

March 21st, 9:50 a.m.

Liberal

Yasmin Ratansi Liberal Don Valley East, ON

Mr. Speaker, during the proceedings taking place, it was the fifth time the member for Carleton had gotten up to bring the same motion, and I yelled out “pathetic”. The reason I yelled out “pathetic” was that people are tweeting to us asking why we are not getting the budget done. There is so much to be done with the budget. Actually, I did not even yell out “pathetic”. I was talking, and the words reached his ears.

Interim EstimatesGovernment Orders

March 21st, 9:50 a.m.

The Speaker Geoff Regan

I think the hon. member for Don Valley East could do us all a favour if she would simply withdraw the unparliamentary word.

Interim EstimatesGovernment Orders

March 21st, 9:50 a.m.

Liberal

Yasmin Ratansi Liberal Don Valley East, ON

Mr. Speaker, since you insist, I will withdraw the word “pathetic”.

Interim EstimatesGovernment Orders

March 21st, 9:50 a.m.

Conservative

John Nater Conservative Perth—Wellington, ON

Mr. Speaker, on a point of order, I would draw your attention to Hansard, Wednesday, February 12, 1997, involving the then hon. member for Fraser Valley East, Chuck Strahl. The Speaker at the time ruled that there were no caveats to a full withdrawal, and saying anything such as “if you insist” is not appropriate. It must be a full and uninhibited, unreserved withdrawal. I do not think that is what we heard from the member. Having had multiple opportunities, pursuant to Standing Order 11, I think she ought to be named.

Interim EstimatesGovernment Orders

March 21st, 9:50 a.m.

The Speaker Geoff Regan

I thank the member for Perth—Wellington.

As he knows, I was not present at the time of the exchange. I did hear from the member regarding her view of the exchange. I did require her to withdraw the word, and she has withdrawn it. I consider the matter settled.

Alleged Interference in Voting Rights of MembersPrivilegeGovernment Orders

March 21st, 9:50 a.m.

Conservative

Michelle Rempel Conservative Calgary Nose Hill, AB

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a question of privilege pursuant to Standing Order 48(2), which provides for matters to be raised without notice if a matter is “arising out of proceedings in the Chamber during the course of a sitting”.

This question of privilege relates to reports that have come to light in recent hours, alleging that efforts were made to prevent members of Parliament from voting on supply motions that have been, and are presently, before us in this place. I am raising this serious matter at the earliest convenience, and given that the ability to vote on supply is one of the most important duties of a member, I appreciate the opportunity to rise on this matter.

Reported by Joan Bryden of the Canadian Press late in the day yesterday, March 20, 2019, is the allegation that the member for Vancouver Granville and the member for Markham—Stouffville were prevented from voting on these matters by their caucus colleagues and/or the leadership of the Liberal Party.

Ms. Bryden's article states, “Despite the efforts to unite and put the affair behind them, one source said [the member for Markham—Stouffville] faced a ‘frank and emotional’ session with her Ontario caucus colleagues prior to the national caucus meeting she did not attend.”

Here is the part relevant to the matter before us: “And both [the member for Markham—Stouffville] and [the member for Vancouver Granville] were allowed to miss the marathon voting session in the belief that sleep-deprived Liberal MPs might take out their frustration on the pair as the voting dragged on into the wee hours of the morning.”

It goes on, “The source spoke on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to publicly discuss confidential caucus matters.”

Furthermore, published today is a Maclean's interview with Paul Wells in which the member for Markham—Stouffville is reported as saying:

...from the perspective of somebody who is under pressure and perhaps being harassed, it’s incredibly hard –- if you talk to people who are harassed in any capacity, to maintain relationships and to find the right time to be able to speak up about the fact that you are being treated that way. So you know, I think if you look at examples of other types of bullying or harassment, it’s not necessarily as easy as people might think....

I will lay out several things regarding this matter, which is urgent and speaks to the business at hand.

These two quotes taken together should show you, Mr. Speaker, and members here that the member for Markham—Stouffville was feeling pressure from her colleagues prior to this interview taking place and before the marathon voting began. Therefore, it is more than plausible in a parliamentary sense, prima facie, that the concerns of the anonymous source in Ms. Bryden's story are valid.

There is precedent here, as you ruled in favour of another member's raising of a point of privilege on behalf of another during the course of proceedings in this 42nd Parliament.

You will recall, Mr. Speaker, that on May 18, 2016, during the ringing of bells, the Prime Minister was captured on video physically shoving a female member on the floor of the House. The issue was taken up on behalf of that member by the former member for York—Simcoe. You, Mr. Speaker, allowed the charge of molestation of a member to go forward as a prima facie question of privilege.

Therefore, I ask that you find a prima facie question of privilege in this case regarding the member for Vancouver Granville and the member for Markham—Stouffville as well, a case of intimidation in which clearly someone was concerned enough to breach the confidence of caucus and keep these members away from the House out of the fear that they would be intimated by their own caucus members.

The unnamed source in Ms. Bryden's article clearly indicated that whatever went on at the Liberal caucus meeting gave rise to action being taken to protect these two members from their own colleagues, preventing them from exercising one of their fundamental rights, which is to attend the House and vote.

I will lay out precedent for the validity of this question of privilege and then why I believe the severity and impact of this situation behooves you to rule in favour of my argument.

However, first I will state that I am doing this because I believe that first and foremost, members should not feel as though they cannot vote on behalf of their constituents. If there are allegations that members have been silenced by their colleagues, it is incumbent upon each of us, regardless of political stripe and out of respect for the sanctity of Parliament, to raise this matter of privilege on their behalf.

Second, I will speak to the matter of precedent.

The matter of ensuring—

Alleged Interference in Voting Rights of MembersPrivilegeGovernment Orders

March 21st, 9:55 a.m.

The Speaker Geoff Regan

Order.

I invite the hon. member to be brief in terms of her presentation. Members who rise on a point of order or a question of privilege know they are to be brief in their presentation. It is not necessary to go through an extensive list of precedents, because the table officers and I have access to the same precedents. The point is that the rules provide that members are to be brief in presenting such questions of privilege.

Second, the two members in question would each have the opportunity to raise this issue themselves. This, in my view, is not the same as the case in which I was present, the previous incident the member referred to. However, I will hear her argument.

My sense is that I would have to hear her question raised by either of the members directly affected in this particular case.

Alleged Interference in Voting Rights of MembersPrivilegeGovernment Orders

March 21st, 9:55 a.m.

Conservative

Michelle Rempel Conservative Calgary Nose Hill, AB

Mr. Speaker, thank you for letting me speak. I will be brief, but I do feel I should lay out the precedent briefly, and then my rationale for doing so.

I believe that the precedent I outlined with regard to laying it out on behalf of another member does apply in this matter, but I will refer you to page 198 of the second edition of Maingot's Parliamentary Privilege in Canada, which tells of an incident far back in our country's history when the Nova Scotia House of Assembly proceeded against someone who had made threats against a member.

Similarly, on September 19, 1973, Speaker Lamoureux at page 6709 of Debates stated that he had no hesitation in reaffirming the principle that parliamentary privilege includes the right of a member to discharge his responsibility as a member of the House free from threats and attempts at intimidation.

On February 6, 1984, the member for Peace River rose on a similar question of privilege regarding Canada Post, and the Speaker did rule in favour of this member.

On March 24, 1994, Speaker Parent described the seriousness of intimidation in a very serious way.

I encourage all colleagues to enlighten themselves on this matter, and again I would refer to the May 2016 ruling in which you, Mr. Speaker, ruled in favour of the former member for York—Simcoe.

Finally, I will speak to the severity and impact of this situation.

Parliament has gone to great lengths to create a policy to prevent workplace harassment here on the Hill. What message are we sending about the legitimacy or efficacy of that legislation and process if we as members are to be prevented from voting by pressure exerted by our peers or by party leadership? What message does this send about our seriousness to make Parliament a place that is friendly for women?

Mr. Speaker, if a prima facie case of privilege can be found by you in a case as benign as a member being delayed to vote by the position of a parliamentary bus, as has been found in the past, then surely allegations of a culture of intimidation being levelled against members currently under a gag order by the Prime Minister, to the point where they feel that they might not be able to vote, should give us all, but especially you, cause for concern.

This is not a matter to be taken lightly. If these allegations are true, tens of thousands of Canadians have been robbed of having their voices heard in these votes, and Parliament has shown exactly how it treats women when it requires action beyond pretty speeches and photo opportunities to get things done on behalf of gender equality.

The legitimacy of our democratic institutions rests in our ability to protect them. The equality of women is not something that can be assumed or taken for granted. Both must be fought for.

Mr. Speaker, it is in this context that I say that you should find this to be a prima facie question of privilege and I am prepared to move the appropriate motion.

Alleged Interference in Voting Rights of MembersPrivilegeGovernment Orders

March 21st, 10 a.m.

The Speaker Geoff Regan

I thank the hon. member for Calgary Nose Hill for raising this matter, which I must be clear I consider a serious matter. However, the difficulty I have is that I do not have clear evidence, and I would have to have evidence from the hon. members in question. I have heard the member's explanation in what she has read, and I appreciate that, but it is clearly hearsay. I would need to hear from the two members in question, which perhaps I will do, in order to find a prima facie case of privilege.

The hon. member for New Westminster—Burnaby is rising. Is it on the same question?

Alleged Interference in Voting Rights of MembersPrivilegeGovernment Orders

March 21st, 10 a.m.

NDP

Peter Julian NDP New Westminster—Burnaby, BC

Yes, Mr. Speaker, it is on the same question.

These are very serious allegations that have been raised in the House. This is an extraordinarily important matter. The right of a member to vote on behalf of their constituents shall never be impeded in any way.

I reserve the right to come back in a very brief time period to add more comments on this matter. Reacting immediately to what the member for Calgary Nose Hill has just said, I cannot find a precedent for this kind of potential intimidation in the history of our Parliament. These are very serious allegations and should be taken seriously. I intend to come back as quickly as possible to add further comments.

Alleged Interference in Voting Rights of MembersPrivilegeGovernment Orders

March 21st, 10 a.m.

The Speaker Geoff Regan

I have given my ruling. The hon. member for Calgary Nose Hill has a brief further intervention.

Alleged Interference in Voting Rights of MembersPrivilegeGovernment Orders

March 21st, 10 a.m.

Conservative

Michelle Rempel Conservative Calgary Nose Hill, AB

Mr. Speaker, I would just like to clarify some of the points that you just made. The quotes that I read were actually—

Alleged Interference in Voting Rights of MembersPrivilegeGovernment Orders

March 21st, 10 a.m.

The Speaker Geoff Regan

This is not a debate. The member has raised her point. It is required to be brief, and I appreciate that it has been. I have heard from the hon. member for New Westminster—Burnaby. I will consider the matter, but I also will be anxious to see whether or not the two members bring forward their own concern about this matter, because I would have to hear from them, as we did in previous instances.

The member referred to the case with the bus. We did hear from individual members about being impeded on that occasion, and I would need to hear from the two members, as I have already indicated.

I thank the hon. member for her intervention, but that will be enough for now.

Concurrence in Vote 1—Department of Indian Affairs and Northern DevelopmentInterim EstimatesGovernment Orders

March 21st, 10:05 a.m.

Vancouver Quadra B.C.

Liberal

Joyce Murray LiberalPresident of the Treasury Board

moved:

That Vote 1, in the amount of $420,575,787, under Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development — Operating expenditures, in the Interim Estimates for the fiscal year ending March 31, 2020, be concurred in.

Concurrence in Vote 1—Department of Indian Affairs and Northern DevelopmentInterim EstimatesGovernment Orders

March 21st, 10:05 a.m.

The Speaker Geoff Regan

The question is on Motion No. 69. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?

Concurrence in Vote 1—Department of Indian Affairs and Northern DevelopmentInterim EstimatesGovernment Orders

March 21st, 10:05 a.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

No.

Concurrence in Vote 1—Department of Indian Affairs and Northern DevelopmentInterim EstimatesGovernment Orders

March 21st, 10:05 a.m.

The Speaker Geoff Regan

All those in favour of the motion will please say yea.