House of Commons Hansard #35 of the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was chair.

Topics

Fisheries and Oceans—Main Estimates, 2020-21Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

9:45 p.m.

South Shore—St. Margarets Nova Scotia

Liberal

Bernadette Jordan LiberalMinister of Fisheries

Madam Chair, I know how important small craft harbours are to our coastal communities. That is why our government has invested almost $486 million in new money since 2016 to make sure that we are addressing the concerns around small craft harbours. Many of them need significant work. We know there is a lot to be done with regard to making sure that the infrastructure is safe, sound and built with resiliency.

Knowing that we are seeing storm surges with climate change, the impacts on our small craft harbours have been significant. We need to make sure that when we are building infrastructure, we are building it for the future. That is why we are going to continue to invest in the small craft harbour program. I know it is extremely important, especially, as my hon. colleague said, to the communities she represents, where the only way to get to those communities is through those harbours.

We want to make sure that the infrastructure that is in place is safe and that it is resilient for years and years to come, not only because our fisheries rely on it but because our coastal communities rely on it.

Fisheries and Oceans—Main Estimates, 2020-21Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

9:45 p.m.

Bloc

Marilène Gill Bloc Manicouagan, QC

Madam Chair, the minister said that $450 million has been spent through her program since 2016. Is she able to tell me how much of that went to Quebec?

Fisheries and Oceans—Main Estimates, 2020-21Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

9:50 p.m.

Liberal

Bernadette Jordan Liberal South Shore—St. Margarets, NS

Madam Chair, I do not have that number off the top of my head, but I am happy to get it for her.

Fisheries and Oceans—Main Estimates, 2020-21Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

9:50 p.m.

Bloc

Marilène Gill Bloc Manicouagan, QC

Madam Chair, I know that the minister was not the Minister of Fisheries, Oceans and the Canadian Coast Guard in 2016, but what has been done regarding ports in Quebec since 2019?

Fisheries and Oceans—Main Estimates, 2020-21Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

9:50 p.m.

Liberal

Bernadette Jordan Liberal South Shore—St. Margarets, NS

Madam Chair, with regards to small craft harbour investments, in 2019, we know that there has been ongoing work. Of course, the COVID-19 pandemic did put a bit of a halt on some of the work, but we are working to catch up. We will make sure that we are addressing issues in the most—

Fisheries and Oceans—Main Estimates, 2020-21Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

November 24th, 2020 / 9:50 p.m.

NDP

The Deputy Chair NDP Carol Hughes

The hon. member.

Fisheries and Oceans—Main Estimates, 2020-21Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

9:50 p.m.

Bloc

Marilène Gill Bloc Manicouagan, QC

Madam Chair, there are some distressing situations in a number of communities back home in my riding and in eastern Quebec. I am thinking about the port in Baie-Trinité, which is classified by the Department of Fisheries and Oceans as essential to the town of Baie-Trinité. An assessment of the port noted that it is not safe and has an estimated life expectancy of zero years, literally.

The port was last inspected in September 2019. What has the department done since then, and how does it plan to remedy this situation?

Fisheries and Oceans—Main Estimates, 2020-21Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

9:50 p.m.

Liberal

Bernadette Jordan Liberal South Shore—St. Margarets, NS

Madam Chair, once again, I am not familiar with the specific port that the member is referring to, but I am happy to get back to her, and we can have a conversation with regards to that structure specifically.

Fisheries and Oceans—Main Estimates, 2020-21Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

9:50 p.m.

Bloc

Marilène Gill Bloc Manicouagan, QC

Madam Chair, I thank the minister.

I could give her plenty of similar examples. The situation is the same in Natashquan, where the wharf was declared surplus 25 years ago. The department wants to acquire it. Currently it belongs to Transport Canada. Apparently the transfer is being negotiated, but here again, it is negatively affecting the economic development and the very survival of the communities, and the first nations fishery as well, of course. There have been no developments since April 15, 2019.

The minister may not be very familiar with this file, but can she assure us that it is a priority for her?

Fisheries and Oceans—Main Estimates, 2020-21Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

9:50 p.m.

Liberal

Bernadette Jordan Liberal South Shore—St. Margarets, NS

Madam Chair, one of the things that is a priority is making sure that our small craft harbours are addressed, and that is the DFO issue. With regards to transport ports, we do not have any authority over those specifically.

I am happy to talk to the member about any small craft harbours in her area that may need to be addressed. Those are what we at DFO deal with. They are extremely important to our rural coastal communities, and we need to make sure that our fishing sector has the infrastructure it needs in order to continue to maintain the industry.

Fisheries and Oceans—Main Estimates, 2020-21Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

9:50 p.m.

Bloc

Marilène Gill Bloc Manicouagan, QC

Madam Chair, indeed, there are many, many communities that need attention. There are nearly 100 wharves in eastern Quebec. I talked about economic development, which is being undermined, as well as the future of first nations communities and land use.

I talked about Natashquan, where there was no road at one point. There is also Baie-Johan-Beetz, which is in a similar situation. Transport Canada tells us that these wharves are no longer in use because there is now a road in some places. Traffic is no longer by sea but by land. However, these wharves have always been used by fishers.

I could also cite the example of Sacré-Cœur. I want to talk about all the hardships that our small coastal communities come up against. Villages of 200 to 300 people have these infrastructures and want to keep them. They would like them to be modernized.

A wharf in Sacré-Cœur that was divested several years ago is being modernized. The certificate of authorization was valid, but the village had to wait 18 days to start the work because of a delay in obtaining a signature that was caused by the department. This resulted in $100,000 in additional costs that had to be paid by a population of a few hundred people. This completely compromised the project.

I live on Quebec's North Shore, where winter lasts almost six months. This means that the work schedule, despite the Department of Fisheries and Oceans calendar, does not work for our municipalities. This jeopardizes projects.

I would like to know if the department will provide compensation and if, instead of proposing a one-size-fits-all solution, it will tailor its assistance measures so that communities can keep the infrastructures they are entitled to without having to pay for unwarranted mistakes or administrative delays.

Fisheries and Oceans—Main Estimates, 2020-21Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

9:50 p.m.

Liberal

Bernadette Jordan Liberal South Shore—St. Margarets, NS

Madam Chair, as I said, DFO is responsible for the small craft harbours program. We have invested significantly in that program. A number of small craft harbours need additional work. We recognize that. We are working through them on a priority basis.

We will continue to do that because we know how important small craft harbours are, not only to the fishing industry but also to the communities they support. We are happy to work with the member opposite to have a constructive dialogue on whether the ports she is referring to are actually small craft harbours or if they are something under a different department from mine.

Fisheries and Oceans—Main Estimates, 2020-21Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

9:55 p.m.

Bloc

Marilène Gill Bloc Manicouagan, QC

Madam Chair, will the department commit to compensating the municipality for cost overruns caused by the department? I mentioned the example of the delay in obtaining a signature, which led to $100,00 in extra costs. The minister did not answer.

When it is the department's fault, would it be possible to have the department admit it made a mistake and have it help the community with what really is a hardship?

Fisheries and Oceans—Main Estimates, 2020-21Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

9:55 p.m.

Liberal

Bernadette Jordan Liberal South Shore—St. Margarets, NS

Madam Chair, as I have said, we have invested significantly in small craft harbours. I am not familiar with the specific harbour that our hon. colleague is speaking about, whether it is an actual small craft harbour or whether it is a Transport Canada port. There is a significant difference in terms of funding.

I am happy to have my officials reach out to her to make sure that the small craft harbours in her area are the ones we are talking about.

Fisheries and Oceans—Main Estimates, 2020-21Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

9:55 p.m.

Bloc

Marilène Gill Bloc Manicouagan, QC

Madam Chair, I thank the minister for her response.

If the people of Natashquan, Baie-Johan-Beetz, Baie-Trinité and Sacré-Cœur-sur-le-Fjord-du-Saguenay had gotten responses to the demands they have been making over and over for the past 10, 20 or 30 years, we might not be having this conversation, even though I am happy to be here. I myself have even intervened several times.

I hope that these communities back home will get answers, because they are facing other issues, such as environmental impact assessments. We are, of course, in favour of protecting the environment and conserving wildlife. However, we see municipalities being given deadlines that they may not have the resources to meet.

In addition, Quebec's environmental plans are not being acknowledged. That is the case in the last situation I mentioned. The municipality is not allowed to move forward, even though the compensation was authorized in 2017. Yes, the law has changed since then, but I would like to know whether the minister could ask for an exemption for certain cases, where projects are in jeopardy because Quebec's jurisdiction over environmental impact assessments has not been recognized. We all know that the government will refuse to move forward with the project in this community and then turn around and buy a pipeline in the west.

Fisheries and Oceans—Main Estimates, 2020-21Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

9:55 p.m.

Liberal

Bernadette Jordan Liberal South Shore—St. Margarets, NS

Madam Chair, DFO works on projects for fisheries authorizations. It is important to ensure that fish and fish habitat are protected. These are things that we made sure were put back in the Fisheries Act after they had been taken out by the previous Conservative government. We have to make sure that we are looking after the fish habitat so that we can continue to have a fishery.

I am sure that my hon. colleague would agree with me that this is extremely important, but I am happy to work with her to help address any concerns that she may have.

Fisheries and Oceans—Main Estimates, 2020-21Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

9:55 p.m.

Bloc

Marilène Gill Bloc Manicouagan, QC

Madam Chair, on another point altogether, for the last few years or decades, people have been feeling as though their river is being taken away from them. In my speech earlier today, I said that people want to be one with the land. The river is not a border. The river is simply an extension of our territory. People want to have access to its resources and not be considered poachers by the federal government.

Does the minister realize that the people of Quebec would like to have access to this resource?

Fisheries and Oceans—Main Estimates, 2020-21Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

9:55 p.m.

Liberal

Bernadette Jordan Liberal South Shore—St. Margarets, NS

Madam Chair, it is extremely important for all of us to have access to resources if we do it in a reasonable and sustainable way. We know that the St. Lawrence is an extremely important economic driver in Quebec. We are going to continue to make sure that it is open for trade with the Canadian Coast Guard.

We know that there is a lot of work to be done as we go forward, but the Coast Guard is vitally important to the St. Lawrence, and we are going to continue to work to make sure that it stays open as a commercial trade route.

Fisheries and Oceans—Main Estimates, 2020-21Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

10 p.m.

Bloc

Marilène Gill Bloc Manicouagan, QC

Madam Chair, I am pleased to hear the minister say that because yesterday at the Standing Committee on Fisheries and Oceans, I asked that we study the issue of recreational fishing. Some call it sport fishing, but in fact, people just want to have access to the resource to feed themselves or as an economic activity, as is the case in the British Columbia, for example. However, members from the minister's party, the governing party, refused to consider this possibility.

Since the minister just said it, I just want to confirm that she agrees that Quebeckers can have access to the resource for recreational or sport fishing.

Fisheries and Oceans—Main Estimates, 2020-21Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

10 p.m.

Liberal

Bernadette Jordan Liberal South Shore—St. Margarets, NS

Madam Chair, I think the hon. colleague misunderstood what I said. I said that it is important that we have access to resources. I am happy to have a conversation with her about what it is that she would like to see.

Of course, when it comes to the committee, the committee members are the masters of their own destiny. They will make the decisions based on what they think is important to study.

Fisheries and Oceans—Main Estimates, 2020-21Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

10 p.m.

Liberal

Jaime Battiste Liberal Sydney—Victoria, NS

Madam Chair, today I rise during committee of the whole to speak and ask questions. I would like to speak for about nine minutes and then ask some questions to the minister for about six minutes.

I have been listening to the discussion tonight and a lot of it focuses around the Marshall decision when we are talking about moderate livelihoods. Some will talk about it as Marshall one or Marshall two. To many MPs and people around Canada, it is just a name on a piece of paper or the title of a case, nothing more, nothing less.

However, as the only Mi'kmaq who has ever sat in the House, I think it is important to give context on who Donald Marshall Jr. was. To the Mi'kmaq, there is much more to this. We know the man. I can think of his smile right now and his moustache and the bell cap he usually wore out and about in Cape Breton. He was known as “Junior” to most of the Mi'kmaq because his father was the grand chief of the Mi'kmaq nation for 27 years, until his peaceful death in 1991.

I remember as a young child listening to Donald Marshall Jr. when he went to classrooms to talk about his fight to change the justice system, after spending 11 years in prison for a crime he did not commit. Donald Marshall Jr. spoke to Mi'kmaq youth at youth conferences about his personal views of justice and what he endured. He taught about resilience and that each one of us has a responsibility to fight for justice, whether in a courtroom, at home or even in jail.

I remember watching a movie at a very young age called Justice Denied that talked about his story and his fight for justice. We often ask in Nova Scotia how this could happen.

It was the focus of a provincial commission, the “Royal Commission on the Donald Marshall, Jr. Prosecution”, which found, on page 1, “The criminal justice system failed Donald Marshall Jr. at...every turn from his arrest and his wrongful conviction” in 1971. It called it a “miscarriage of justice”. It stated that the reason was, at least in part, because Donald Marshall Jr. was indigenous.

Despite all he had gone through, just four years after his commission, Junior was fighting for justice again, but this time on behalf of a nation. After years of litigation, the Mi'kmaq who had validated their treaties at the Supreme Court case in 1985 now turned to Donald Marshall Jr. for the most important litigation the nation had ever been a part of. Unlike any other case, it was not about surviving but thriving as a nation. It was a court case about a Mi'kmaq person being able to move from poverty to a moderate or modest living.

Elder Kerry Prosper, a chief then, described it as a win for our nation. It was the first time many chiefs felt a collective win as a nation. Unfortunately, the jubilation for the Mi'kmaq and Junior was brief. Only two months later, our Supreme Court of Canada, based on political and economic pressures, decided to clarify this decision.

As far as I know in my academic career and legal knowledge, I can point to no other Supreme Court of Canada case that has ever needed clarification. I can only imagine what Donald Marshall Jr. went through and what it must have felt like to hear his victory on behalf of the nation required an unprecedented clarification.

In both cases the facts were the same and the verdict was the same, which was that Donald Marshall Jr. caught and sold eels out of season and was protected by a Mi'kmaq treaty right to do so.

Donald Marshall Jr. passed away a hero in 2009, a hero to his nation. I felt it was important to give this context to the legacy we are dealing with when we speak of the Marshall decision. I am only sad that Junior died before seeing his home community of Membertou become one of the owners of the largest fisheries company in this country. I congratulate his home community, Chief Terry Paul of Membertou and its council for making sure Junior's legacy will always be a positive one.

I have heard people speak about the Marshall decision over the past few months. Many quote the case as if the Mi'kmaq lost this case, as if they did not have this right. Unfortunately, understanding the Marshall decision requires understanding indigenous case law from 1929 until today.

Understanding the Marshall decision requires understanding the Constitution of Canada, specifically section 35, which recognizes and affirms all existing aboriginal and treaty rights, as well as section 52, which states: “The Constitution of Canada is the supreme law of Canada, and any law that is inconsistent with...the Constitution is...of no force or effect.”

I wanted to give that context because I thought it was important for the Mi'kmaq, and for the House of Commons, to understand that when Marshall decisions 1 or 2 are talked about, it means a lot to the Mi'kmaq people because he was one of our heroes. I miss him. Many of us do today.

I will now pivot my questions to the minister. I would like to start off by thanking her for her valuable work during the early stages of COVID. I acknowledge her for the many conversations that we had about some of the difficult situations that were going on within the fisheries in the early months in the spring and her success in advocating for the fish harvester benefit and grant.

I ask the minister if she could give us the numbers of how many fishermen we helped in Nova Scotia during these difficult times.

Fisheries and Oceans—Main Estimates, 2020-21Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

10:05 p.m.

South Shore—St. Margarets Nova Scotia

Liberal

Bernadette Jordan LiberalMinister of Fisheries

Madam Chair, it is extremely important for all of us to understand what it means to be treaty people. I want to thank the hon. member for talking to me over the last few months on a regular basis about Marshall and helping me understand the context of the Marshall decision. His input has been invaluable, so I really do appreciate it.

With regard to the question, more than 15,000 self-employed harvesters and their families across the country have received support to help them weather the COVID-19 pandemic. I do not have that broken down in front of me, but I am happy to provide that to him.

We do know that it was an extremely valuable program to fish harvesters. It was extremely important that they had the supports necessary in order to make very difficult decisions when it came to their seasons. This is a program that we were committed to making sure we rolled out, and it has been very successful.

Fisheries and Oceans—Main Estimates, 2020-21Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

10:05 p.m.

Liberal

Jaime Battiste Liberal Sydney—Victoria, NS

Madam Chair, the minister and I had several conversations about ensuring that all fishermen were part of the fish harvester benefit and grant program. Specifically, we had plenty of conversations about some of the Mi'kmaq communal commercial fisheries that were left out in the discussions we have had over the past few months because several Mi'kmaq are part of the communal commercial fisheries. They fish alongside all other fishermen during the seasons and have done so successfully for a number of years. I can think of Crane Cove fisheries as one of them that, in my home community, employs close to 100 fishermen who are part of this group.

Could the minister speak to how we ensured that all fishermen were part of the fish harvester benefit in furthering reconciliation?

Fisheries and Oceans—Main Estimates, 2020-21Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

10:10 p.m.

Liberal

Bernadette Jordan Liberal South Shore—St. Margarets, NS

Madam Chair, when we designed the fish harvester benefit and grant, we knew how important it was going to be to get it to as many fishers as possible. That included first nations with regard to commercial communal licences. We made sure that it got to inland fishers, who would normally be under the provincial jurisdiction, but we wanted to make sure they also had their concerns addressed.

It was an important part of reconciliation to make sure that first nations harvesters had the same benefits and were able to access the same funding as everybody else, even though their licence structure is different.

The fish harvester benefit and grant program was a huge success. It has helped, as I said, over 15,000 commercial harvesters and their families across the country. We made sure that they had the benefits they needed in order to get through this very difficult time.

Fisheries and Oceans—Main Estimates, 2020-21Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

10:10 p.m.

Liberal

Jaime Battiste Liberal Sydney—Victoria, NS

Madam Chair, in the Fisheries Act passed in 2019, among other things, two very important sections were included in that.

Section 2.3 says:

This Act is to be construed as upholding the rights of Indigenous peoples recognized and affirmed by section 35 of the Constitution Act, 1982, and not as abrogating or derogating from them.

As well as this key clause, which is law and which I will ask the minister about, under “Duty of Minister”, it says:

When making a decision under this Act, the Minister shall consider any adverse effects that the decision may have on the rights of the Indigenous peoples of Canada recognized and affirmed by section 35 of the Constitution Act, 1982.

Minister, with all that is going on, do you believe these two sections were key parts of our government's continued commitment to reconciliation and ensuring nation-to-nation respect was continued to be paid around aboriginal and treaty rights?