Debates of Nov. 25th, 2021

Order Respecting the Business of the House and its Committees

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Madam Speaker, I thank my colleague for his speech. After listening to it, I am wondering whether he actually wants the hybrid model to become the usual practice. Is that really what he wants? Our role, the reason why we were elected, is to come to Ottawa to debate and legislate. That is why the people of Shefford elected me.

I have a little story to tell. Tuesday evening, I went to the Bell Centre to see the Genesis concert. There were thousands of people there. I showed my vaccine passport, washed my hands and wore my mask. I never felt unsafe. If the Government of Quebec is allowing thousands of people to gather when proper health measures are followed, can my colleague explain why we cannot do the same here?

Is a Genesis concert more important than our role as parliamentarians?

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

Madam Speaker, I appreciate my colleague's comments, and I want to congratulate her on getting re-elected.

There is absolutely nothing in this motion that says that she cannot come to the House if she wants to. She has the right to come here every day. What is important is that she can do her work here when she has to be here, and if something really important comes up in her riding that she is involved in, then she can be there to help promote projects that are important to her constituents. She will not lose her right to vote.

I once had to leave the House for 36 hours while my wife was having surgery. I missed 22 votes because there was a marathon of votes. Is that right? Did I have the democratic right to vote? Was I representing my constituents? No.

With the proposed model, we will be able to do that.

[Stephen Ellis, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

Madam Speaker, it is interesting that my hon. colleagues across the aisle continue to talk about science. I am not sure how many scientists there are over there, but that is a whole other matter.

It is important that we look at this. We have never done this before, besides last year. How many people really know that it works? Is it effective? Have we really studied it? We have not. I think it a shame that after 150-odd years of Parliament in Canada we allow the opposite side to control the destiny of democracy in Canada without any study at all, and to say that this is a virtual Parliament that is going to go on forever.

When are we going to look at the science that all the Liberals continue to speak about?

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

Madam Speaker, I want to congratulate my colleague from Nova Scotia for being elected to the House of Commons. As he knows, we represent people and communities. It is our responsibility no matter where we live to support them. I congratulate him for being here.

I know my poor colleague was not here in the last six years, when the party across the floor refused to listen to science. Even today, it is still refusing to listen to science. Just because we did not do it for the first 150 years does not mean it is not good and we cannot do it. That is what is very important. This is an opportunity to allow us to do our jobs even better.

[Claude DeBellefeuille, Bloc, Salaberry—Suroît, QC]

Madam Speaker, I thank the member for his speech.

Something made me prick up my ears. I am a whip, I helped create the hybrid Parliament and I am going to say quite frankly that it is a temporary tool to get through a pandemic. I am hearing that telework is becoming more and more popular, that it is flexible and so on.

Am I hearing that the government wants to change how Parliament works? That it wants to fundamentally alter Parliament just like that with one motion? A story cannot be changed. Telework is practical, but parliamentarians are elected to sit here in the House.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

Madam Speaker, once again I want to thank my colleague for her question and comments.

She needs to understand that the motion before us does not say it is forever. That is not how I read it. Like my colleague said earlier, I understand that it lasts until June 23, 2022. That is what the motion on the table says, and my speech reflects this motion.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Madam Speaker, first of all, I would like to let you know that I intend to share my time with my delightful colleague from Laurentides—Labelle. I would like to wish her a very happy birthday once again. She turned 23 yesterday, so I would again like to wish my colleague a happy birthday.

I hope you do not mind, Madam Speaker, if I take this opportunity to recognize the people who supported me during the campaign this autumn. I am thinking of the family members who, by force of circumstance, have become our most fervent volunteers and our most fervent admirers. I am thinking of our teams around us and, above all, we are thinking of the voters who have given us their trust. As we all know, sometimes we can say that the first time is perhaps an accident, but I can confirm that the second time is a mark of confidence that is appreciated all the more.

My thanks to all the volunteers who worked on my campaign, I see them not only as thanks, but also as a prelude to what I am about to discuss, because this team was on the warpath for months preparing for an election that was coming, we did not know when. That is always what happens in a minority government. They were also called upon to reinvent themselves, according to the somewhat overused term we heard during the pandemic.

We also wondered why the Liberals called an election during a pandemic. In Parliament, we even voted on a motion stating that it was irresponsible to hold an election during a pandemic, but that clearly did not bother the government since it went ahead and called one anyway.

One also has to wonder what has changed so much since the time of the election and now, since during the election it was fine to travel from one province to another and the borders were not closed. What has changed so much that we now need to adopt a hybrid system of Parliament?

As far as I know, things have improved somewhat and some restrictions have been lifted. Restaurants are able to welcome more customers at a time and there are no longer any limits on the number of people allowed at theatres. We stopped limiting the number of people who can go into the grocery store at one time. I do not think that things have gotten so bad that we have to go back to a hybrid system of Parliament.

The current situation is not ideal. The ideal situation would be if there were no pandemic. However, there is one and we must live with it. In this context, I would say that the Bloc's proposal for how we should work during the pandemic is the most balanced and the most reasonable: The 338 members would return in person and everyone would provide proof of double vaccination. That is the closest to what we are seeing in all societies that have put in place strict health measures.

The arguments made by my colleague from Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook to justify hybrid sittings do not entirely have to do with the pandemic. This further bolsters my belief that we are being fed false arguments and that the pandemic is but a pretext to avoid returning to the House and being accountable to the people we represent. I find that there are false pretenses behind this.

I hear arguments about sick leave, maternity leave or snow storms. I am not saying that those are not legitimate concerns, but now is not the time to be talking about them, and during a pandemic is definitely not the time to be having this debate. Last summer I sat on the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs, where we nailed down the ins and outs of a hybrid Parliament. During our discussions, we said that it was not the time to be making these kinds of arguments for a broader discussion on a hybrid Parliament. I get the feeling that this is what people are doing here today.

The motion will clearly be adopted and the hybrid system will soon be back. People are telling us that a hybrid Parliament is so important because they are worried about their health and want to be safe. I do not think there is any guarantee that the people we see on Zoom will spend the rest of the week in their basement, avoiding meeting with constituents, turning down meetings, not going to bingos or spaghetti suppers, and not campaigning in their ridings while they are supposed to be here, in Parliament.

I really want to stress that hybrid sittings mean we lose the natural, organic contact with our colleagues that we have seen over the course of these four sitting days. We lose the opportunity for one-on-ones with a minister, a colleague, a critic or a fellow parliamentary committee member. That kind of thing is not easy on Zoom.

The same thing happened in parliamentary committees. Not only are Zoom committee meetings more arduous, but they also do not afford members the opportunity to glance at a colleague in a way that says, “Let us meet at the coffee station to discuss something” while still following the conversation. Zoom meetings are not nearly as effective.

I think the biggest downside of all is lack of accountability. That may be why government members are the ones who seem most keen on the hybrid model. Virtual attendance means no reporters waiting for them on their way out of the House of Commons. All they have to do is click on “Leave” to dodge any accountability to the fourth estate, the press.

We also forget the work of the support staff, who we burned out by using the hybrid model. I am thinking about the IT group. We have to tip our hat to them because they performed miracles, but we wore them out by using the hybrid model so much. I am also thinking about the interpreters, whose sound quality during Zoom meetings was quite bad most of the time. We exhausted them as well. Returning to normal would do them a favour.

I am anticipating certain questions, so let me answer them immediately. If I answer them ahead of time, then my colleagues will not need to ask them. I invite them to come up with other questions to ask me.

We have been asked how this will work if the situation deteriorates while we are in normal mode. In that case, we will do the same thing as last time. We will turn things around in 24 hours and bring in a hybrid Parliament, especially now that we already have the necessary technology.

There have also been questions about how we will know if the situation has gotten worse. We will just have to look at what is going on in the provinces and in Quebec. Any new lockdowns would be an indication that the hybrid system should be brought back. It would be a relatively simple and quick process. We already know that it is possible.

There have been questions about members who may be immunocompromised and who may be afraid of coming to Parliament. I do not get the impression that the majority of members of Parliament are immunocompromised. If it turns out that there are members who are immunocompromised, which remains to be proven, they would probably be the exception. By bringing in a hybrid Parliament, the government is enforcing a universal standard to cater to special cases. The standard should be that members come in person because that is why we were elected. These supposedly immunocompromised members, if there are any here, probably campaigned outside of their basements.

We are also hearing the argument that some people have young unvaccinated children and they are worried about bringing COVID-19 home to them. We are about to start vaccinating younger children. Because of that, the argument already holds much less water. However, I would be curious to know whether members who have young children stop them from going to the movies, going to shows and seeing other people. Are they home-schooling to ensure that the children are not at risk? I think that is a fair question.

All that to say that the motion we are debating seems much more bogus. It seems to be using the pandemic for purely political and partisan purposes, and that is what I find really disappointing.

Moreover, the government is already anticipating that this measure will stay in place until June 23, 2022. June 23 is seven months away. If we go back the same amount of time, seven months ago, I could not even get on a waiting list for my vaccine. A lot of water has gone under the bridge in the past seven months. I expect that a lot will happen too. If the government wants to go so far with this right off the bat, surely that just confirms how partisan this measure is.

[Fayçal El-Khoury, Liberal, Laval—Les Îles, QC]

Madam Speaker, I thank my colleague for her speech, and I would like to wish the other member a happy birthday.

We all know that COVID‑19 is a very contagious disease. All the peer-reviewed scientific studies show that the risk of death in vaccinated individuals is practically 0%.

My question for my colleague is this: If a person decides not to get vaccinated and risk their own life, that may be their right, but does that person have the right to endanger the lives of others?

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Madam Speaker, that sounds more like a question for a member of another party than for a Bloc member.

The answer is simple. Our solution is the most balanced approach. We want a return to in-person sittings with everyone providing proof of double vaccination.

[Salma Zahid, Liberal, Scarborough Centre, ON]

Madam Speaker, I would like to congratulate my hon. colleague on her election and on her speech.

Today, in Ontario, 748 new COVID cases have been reported. As of yesterday, 15 of Ontario's public schools were closed due to COVID spread.

In the 43rd Parliament, a person like me who has a compromised immune system was able to fulfill their duties as a member of Parliament. I was able to vote in spite of having COVID for two weeks. I was able to vote and I was able to chair a committee.

However, not knowing how many members across the aisle are not vaccinated, why should we put the health and safety of some members at risk when, with a hybrid Parliament, we can perform our duties as members of Parliament, and we have done that?

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Madam Speaker, I thank my colleague for her question, and I am sorry that I do not see her anymore. I may not be on the same committee as her, but I want to tell her that I enjoyed sitting next to her during the last Parliament.

Once again, our proposal settles the matter of double vaccination. We want everyone who enters the parliamentary precinct to be double-vaccinated.

Beyond that, the real question is this: What is the balance between parliamentarians' rights and their obligations?

This proposal seems to completely overlook parliamentarians' responsibilities and obligations, which includes the governing party's responsibility and obligation to be in the House to answer the opposition's questions.

All we are hearing the Liberals talk about is rights. They are avoiding the issue of responsibilities.

[Stephen Ellis, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

Madam Speaker, I really want to congratulate my Liberal colleagues on how much concern they have over the people who are not immunized. It is fascinating, but in my mind, as a scientist, I really wonder how, if someone were unvaccinated and got COVID, it would make the lives of all these people who are vaccinated doubly so much worse. I fail to understand that. Perhaps someone could please explain that to me. It really makes no sense to me whatsoever.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Madam Speaker, I understand that the question was not addressed directly to me, but I would still like to try to answer it.

Science has proven its worth. A person who is unvaccinated has a much higher viral load. Although double vaccination affords adequate protection, it is not perfect. We can still have symptoms of COVID‑19.

The ideal solution is for people to get double-vaccinated and to return to the House in person.

[The Assistant Deputy Speaker, NDP, Carol Hughes]

We have just enough time for one short question.

The hon. member for New Westminster—Burnaby.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Madam Speaker, as we have seen, the number of COVID‑19 cases continues to rise in Europe, and several countries have already gone back into lockdown. We are seeing a resurgence of the pandemic across Canada, including in my riding, New Westminster—Burnaby. We also know that the vaccine is starting to lose its effectiveness over time.

For all these reasons, I would like to ask my hon. colleague the following question. With the number of COVID‑19 cases on the rise everywhere, including in Quebec, why is she taking this matter so lightly?

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Madam Speaker, my hon. colleague from New Westminster—Burnaby seems to be suggesting that he thinks the various public health authorities are taking this situation lightly, since they have authorized the reopening and are allowing public gatherings.

I would remind him, as I said in my speech, that we will follow all public health recommendations and that, in the event of another lockdown, the hybrid model would be justified, but that is not currently the case.

[The Assistant Deputy Speaker, NDP, Carol Hughes]

Resuming debate. The hon. member for Laurentides—Labelle.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Madam Speaker, I congratulate you on your appointment.

We have been discussing this issue for several hours now and many arguments have been presented. Everything has been said and the debate is winding down.

Since this is my first time rising in the 44th Parliament, I want to take the opportunity to express my thanks. I would first like to thank the people of Laurentides—Labelle who put their trust in me a second time. I am very proud of that, particularly since I won with an overwhelming majority.

My constituents can count on me to properly represent them and stand up for their interests. I will take all the time needed. In the end, we, as legislators, have 26 weeks to work here in the House and 26 more in our ridings to get to know our constituents and hear about their concerns. I would therefore like to tell my constituents that I will always be there for them.

I also want to thank my two beautiful daughters, Anne-Sophie and Ève-Marie, and my husband of 26 years, Yannick Thibault. They have been there from the start. In 2019, the Bloc Québécois faced quite a challenge, and I was very proud to be part of it. I thank them for their trust in me. Work-life balance is a team effort, and I thank them for their resilience and, above all, for their kind words. Yesterday, since I could not be there, we celebrated a birthday virtually. I cannot say it enough, my family members are at the very heart of my commitment, and the sacrifice they make is beyond honourable.

I also want to give special thanks to my volunteers. I will not name them all, as there are many, but they know who they are. I offer them my most sincere thanks. I can count on them, and I am fortunate to have such good people around me.

I also want to give a shout out to my constituency team. They work miracles every day. The pandemic has not been easy on anyone. In response to the alleged slowness of the decision-making process, I will remind you that we have wasted some time. People are having a hard time understanding why bills that were supposed to pass this fall must unfortunately go back to the beginning of the process.

At the Mont‑Laurier office, I want to say hello to Maryse Larente and Annie-Claude Poirier. At the Sainte‑Agathe‑des‑Monts office, I want to say hello to Maxime Caouette and Michel Kieffer, as well as our new recruit, Annie Lajoie. There is also Mathieu Laroche Casavant, who works on Parliament Hill and supports me in my parliamentary duties as well as in my duties as chair of the Bloc Québécois caucus.

Our loved ones are the most important people in our lives. My mother, Françoise, has enabled me to do what I am doing now, which is to speak to the members of the House, always to improve our collective well-being. I would also like to thank my parents-in-law, Solange and Lévis. I cannot forget my father, who is also in my thoughts every day. I hope he is proud of his daughter up there. In fact, I am sure he is, and I love him.

In closing, I would like to acknowledge my predecessor, Johanne Deschamps, who was the member of Parliament for Laurentides—Labelle for four terms.

Having said that, we are here to talk for a while longer about the motion that Parliament should operate in a hybrid format.

Yesterday I was talking to people in my riding and trying to find out what they thought. Since we are vaccinated, it is now possible to go to establishments offering various services and to see shows, while respecting the health measures proposed by the experts and scientists.

It was not complicated. They thought that we took advantage of the pandemic to be somewhat comfortable and relaxed, but what about the work that we do beyond speeches and the House of Commons? How about what happens when we walk to the Hill and have meaningful discussions?

When I arrived on Monday, after greeting my colleagues and the new members, I realized how much work can get done on a very specific issue that matters to our constituents, all with a simple discussion. People may already realize this, but I unfortunately did not have much time in a normal Parliament before the pandemic arrived.

It was even more difficult in committee. There was a lot of obstruction. Things can sometimes be much more efficient and effective in person. We can come to an agreement much more quickly when we have discussions with our colleagues. We cannot forget about language. I must say that the interpreters did an excellent job. I congratulate and thank them.

Technically, everyone here should be bilingual. Having said that, it is not right that an MP has to listen more closely to the original to be certain they have not missed anything. In fact, people speak too quickly and this makes interpretation more difficult at a time when we want to intervene to ensure that we have understood before voting. It is too late when the voting begins.

I came to realize that it was not the right approach for us because committees must meet in person and that goes for the House as well. I also think it is difficult to get used to speaking without looking at one another, and I enjoy speaking with people in person and not on a screen. Otherwise, we would have chosen other careers. My job is to speak on behalf of people and to have discussions with my colleagues.

I realize that we got it right when the pandemic first started. We were able to show our fellow citizens that, as my colleague mentioned earlier, in 24 hours we were able to turn on a dime. We were able to do it. We had to find and use the technology that was crucial at that time.

Now we have confidence, we want to make the most of our time and maybe try to do two or three things at once. This is critical. When we are here in person, we are able to focus on what needs to be done.

Personally, I trust the experts and I am sure that my colleagues trust the science. If we need to make a quick change some day, we will do so. We have shown that we are able to adjust.

To us in the Bloc Québécois, there is no good reason to not return to the House if we are double-vaccinated and if we obey the rules that have been established. On Monday, people could see in the first five minutes that there was no distancing. Everyone greeted each other and shook hands. Come on.

It is okay to be cautious and concerned, but I think we need to do our job the way it has been done for many decades now.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

Madam Speaker, I do not quite understand the Bloc's logic. The legislature of the Province of Manitoba, my home province, is sitting today. It has a hybrid system, which was non-controversial. Everyone understood the safety and health benefits, the need for strong leadership, and it is not a political controversy at all.

We are doing something of a very similar nature. There is a sunset provision, so it ends by the time we get into June. It seems to me that maybe the Bloc was kind of conned into this by its cozy cousin the Conservative Party.

I wonder if the member has any regrets not recognizing that there is absolutely nothing wrong with enfranchising and enabling parliamentarians at a time when they could be infected by COVID to be able to participate fully, like the leader of the official opposition in the Province of Manitoba today.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. member for his question. I would like to come back to what I was saying about maximizing our effectiveness. Doing our work in person means we can work better and more effectively, and come up with quick solutions for the collective well-being of our constituents. It has been proven, and we have all experienced this. In a virtual situation, there are no exchanges that might allow us to work small miracles for our constituents.

We do not have enough information at this time to say definitively that we should keep this model until June.

[Marty Morantz, Conservative, Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB]

Madam Speaker, it is my pleasure to rise for the first time after being re-elected by the great people of Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley. I am happy to be back live and in person in this amazing place.

I have been listening carefully to the speeches today and almost, without exception, everyone supporting the motion is saying that if somebody gets COVID, has been near somebody who has COVID or received an alert that he or she has had a brush with COVID, the member should not be disenfranchised and should be able to participate virtually. There is some logic to that, but the fact is that is not what the motion says at all. The motion says that any member can participate virtually or in-person for any reason.

Does the member not think the motion is simply too broad and if the government is sincere in wanting members to be able to participate virtually because they are ill or might become ill, the motion should simply say that?

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. member for his question. What we experienced, namely, people hiding behind their screens, could be perceived as avoidance by some people. We need to be consistent in the work we have to do. This means being available, answering questions and following through on things, all for our collective well-being.

[The Assistant Deputy Speaker, NDP, Carol Hughes]

Order. There seems to be a problem with the interpretation.

Is it working now?

The interpretation is working again. The hon. member for Laurentides—Labelle may continue.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Madam Speaker, quickly, the perception of people when we work in virtual mode is that we do not have the exchanges that go alongside it. The work is therefore not as effective because we have to be accountable, answer questions and follow up on files. Hiding behind a screen, as we have unfortunately seen during the exchanges of the last few days, makes our work less effective.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Madam Speaker, legislatures across the country are operating in hybrid mode. The British Columbia legislature is doing it, as well. There are people who take part by being physically present, and others who participate remotely. The British Columbia legislature also has physical distancing measures, which is something we cannot do in the House without having a hybrid Parliament and without having the virtual capacity.

I am listening carefully to my colleague, but I find it hard to understand her opposition to doing everything that other assemblies in the country are doing to avoid being responsible for a breakout of the COVID‑19 pandemic here, among employees and members of Parliament, their families or the general public.