Debates of Nov. 25th, 2021

Motion That Debate Be Not Further Adjourned

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax, ON]

Madam Speaker, I truly appreciate the opportunity to work with the excellent member opposite. It is a great pleasure. As whips, we have had the opportunity to work together many times and to find common ground.

As to the issue before us, we are not talking about a hockey game. In the case of a hockey game, people are travelling locally to the stadium. In the House of Commons, people come from across Canada, from Vancouver to Newfoundland. Furthermore, they do not come for just three hours, they remain here for several days at a time.

People in poor health do not have a choice, they must come to work. That is not the case for a hockey game in a stadium. Vulnerable people can watch the game on television.

If the motion is not adopted, we must come here, and that is not acceptable.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

Madam Speaker, congratulations on returning to your role in this chamber.

During the pandemic, we have seen Canadian companies scale up to produce personal protective equipment. My question is about the safety here.

Has the government House leader had a chance to bring this forward in terms of having Canadian suppliers of PPE? Not all PPE is created equal. In fact, we have seen bogus PPE not only in this place, but also across the country. Has the government considered being a role model and setting an example for the staff here and for the operations on Parliament Hill? Canadian PPE is a priority and is a first choice. We could create that for ourselves here.

If he has not done that, will he commit to doing that, and making sure that we have the highest standards and Canadian companies are actually winning the contracts? This is as opposed to U.S. conglomerates and Chinese firms using other types of material that does not provide the safety necessary. Will the member commit to that today?

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax, ON]

Madam Speaker, it is incredibly important that we not focus on our individual personal privilege, which this debate seems to be a lot about. When I look around and see who works here, like the pages, House administration, staff, journalists and indeed MPs, my concern first and foremost is their safety.

To the member opposite's question, at the Board of Internal Economy I think we have to rise to the highest and best standard. We have to ensure that every person here is safe. We have to ensure that the policies we choose, as a chamber that is supposed to provide leadership in the country, do not debate basic science and do not cast doubt about other workplaces where people are working in large numbers all across the country. Whether this should be a place that has a vaccine mandate does not seem to be the thing we should be focusing on. That should be something that we should have agreed with so that we were dealing with the four major priorities: the bills that we have to get done in this Parliament.

Instead, we continue to debate whether the sky is blue. We continue to deal with this obfuscation. Instead we should be asking questions such as the one the hon. member is asking, about how we can ensure this is the safest workplace possible.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

Madam Speaker, I have two very quick points. In my home province, the Manitoba legislature has a hybrid system. As it debates over the next 10 days, it will have the option to sit virtually versus in person. It is a progressive, Conservative government.

The member for Beauce is not with us. He will not be able to vote on this particular motion. In the days ahead, there may be members who also might not be able to participate.

Does the government House leader not feel it is somewhat ironic, but very important, that we advocate for those members who would like the opportunity to be fully engaged in every aspect of debating, voting, attending committees and so forth? That is what this motion does.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax, ON]

Madam Speaker, the member for Winnipeg North is absolutely right. The odd situation here is that if somebody, for example a Conservative MP, who contracts COVID-19 needs to go into isolation, or the people who are unvaccinated from the Conservative Party and are in contact with said person need to be in self-isolation, the position of blocking a hybrid Parliament actually blocks the privilege of the members they are talking about protecting.

On a point of privilege, if I could continue that point, I think that privilege should start with the most vulnerable. Let us remember that a member who feels comfortable being in this chamber and who is fully vaccinated has every opportunity to be in this chamber. Nobody would block them. However, a member who is vulnerable, who is immunocompromised and who does not feel safe does not have that ability. I believe in a workplace where vulnerable people are put first, and where their interests and the interests of their health are placed first.

When we are talking about personal privilege, we do not start with our own personal privilege. Rather, we look at those who are most vulnerable and ask about their privilege and how they, as members of Parliament, could be protected in carrying out their duties. That is what I would like to hear about. I would like to hear from the members opposite about how they are caring for the most vulnerable in this place and ensuring they can do their duty.

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Madam Speaker, the government House leader is making the argument that it is dangerous to travel to Ottawa because we are in a pandemic, yet it is the current government that opened up travel again. It is his government that called a federal election in the middle of the pandemic when the Delta wave was raging. The Liberals campaigned in hospitals during the election. The Prime Minister travelled across the country. His government just sent a delegation of 200 people across the ocean to Scotland for COP26. I am really not clear on his argument about it being dangerous to travel to Parliament to do our jobs, represent Canadians and hold the government accountable. It just does not match up.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax, ON]

Madam Speaker, what is not clear to me is how many Conservative members are unvaccinated. Is it one, two, three, four, five, six or seven? They will not say how many of them are not vaccinated.

I have a real problem when members who will not tell us whether or not they are vaccinated talk about how safe it is because people are vaccinated. When people get on an airplane they are vaccinated. They know that everybody around them is vaccinated without exception.

Now that we are in this chamber I do not know who is vaccinated. I look across the way and I do not know who has done the responsible thing. I do not know who has done the irresponsible thing. I do not know who they have been in contact with. I do not know if they are following public health measures, because they will not answer basic questions. Yes, that makes people feel uncomfortable in this place. Absolutely, as in any workplace, no employees should feel unsafe in their place of work. They should be supported.

[The Assistant Deputy Speaker, NDP, Carol Hughes]

We have a point of order. I am going to stop the clock, because generally there are no points of order during this debate.

I will hear it to see if it has to do with this particular matter.

The hon. member for Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Madam Speaker, the government House leader just suggested that the rules of the House are being broken, in terms of members accessing the chamber in violation of the rules. If he has information about that, the chair—

[The Assistant Deputy Speaker, NDP, Carol Hughes]

This is debate. Again, I want to remind members that generally there are no points of order unless something needs to be changed within the chamber because someone feels uncomfortable, which is more a point of privilege.

The hon. member for Longueuil—Saint‑Hubert.

[Denis Trudel, Bloc, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

Madam Speaker, I am appalled by what I am seeing this morning. Parliament has been shut down for six months because of the election that the Liberals opposite called. The election cost $600 million. We are in the middle of a climate crisis and a housing crisis. How many housing units could have been built in Quebec with the $600 million that was spent on the election? We could have built 3,000 units for women who are victims of domestic violence, for example, it being the International Day for the Elimination of Violence Against Women. Here we are, having a debate over whether we are going to sit, helped along by the Liberal Party's farm team, when we should be fixing problems and meeting ministers.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax, ON]

Madam Speaker, with a hybrid system, members are able to participate in debates here in the House any day of the week if they so choose. That is not an issue. They can also participate virtually if they would like, which is why I do not understand the argument that there are problems. The member is correct that we must work hard for Canadians. There is a lot to get done, and we can do this work in person or remotely. The system worked very well during the pandemic. We can continue to use this system. I have already explained that the minister will be here in person to answer questions.

Again, I ask, what is the problem?

[Stéphane Lauzon, Liberal, Argenteuil—La Petite-Nation, QC]

Madam Speaker, today I actually feel safer flying than coming to the House, not knowing who is vaccinated and who is not. Today, I wonder why we are not working to move forward on the important issues in our constituencies by working directly with the ministers in person or in a hybrid Parliament.

We should have voted. Can the government House leader explain how we can play our role properly with the motion before us?

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax, ON]

Madam Speaker, the hon. member is right.

Both the government and the House have major priorities. The number one priority is the people who are being affected by COVID‑19 and who need immediate help. That is what we should be debating now, not the science or other things that are so obvious.

In hospitals, frontline workers are working so hard every day to protect all Canadians. However, it is easy to threaten these people at the hospital, making it harder for them to do their jobs, so we need to address this issue.

There are other priorities, such as the ban on conversion therapy, which is essential. This is the real priority for Canadians, and it is an issue that we can work on today if the opposition is willing.

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

Madam Speaker, I would simply like to say that no one here is surprised that the Conservative Party is calling into question the vaccines, science, modernity and the new ways of working, such as telework or working remotely. What does surprise me, however, is the fact that the Bloc Québécois is siding with the Conservative Party. I find their about-face rather surprising.

Why should we keep the option of a hybrid Parliament open? The reason is that we are in the fourth wave and that the number of cases in Quebec has risen from 400 to 900 a day. Quebec society has adapted, and telework is now part of our lives. It is 2021. Should we not take a precautionary approach here in Parliament?

Why does the Leader of the Government in the House think that the Bloc Québécois is now siding with the Conservative Party?

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax, ON]

Madam Speaker, it is absolutely clear that the pandemic is not over yet. We are in the midst of the fourth wave, and there may be more.

It is very important that members are able to debate subjects such as this, and that includes the most vulnerable members. It is their privilege. In my opinion, it is essential to have a system where the most vulnerable members can vote and participate in committee meetings, question period and all aspects of Parliament. A hybrid system makes that possible. Members who are not vulnerable or who do not have any issues can come to the House. There is no problem with that. They can ask questions in person. The minister will be here for them.

What is the problem today? Why are we still having this debate? It is a big waste of time.

[Stephen Ellis, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

Madam Speaker, it is fascinating to me that the government House leader continues to expound upon these rules and regulations when the question remains, does he really know what they are?

I want to go back to the fact that on air he says that anybody who is double vaccinated and has COVID can go back to work. That is nonsensical. My question then remains, will the government House leader retract his statements and realize that he has no idea what the rules really are?

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax, ON]

Madam Speaker, I struggle to understand the question, but I will try to answer it in a couple of ways.

First of all, we have rules and regulations that govern this place. One of them is the tie that I wear today. On Thursdays I happen to choose a bow tie, but that is permissible under the rules of this place. I am required to wear a tie to stand in my place. There are many other rules in this place. I am going to be limited in how long I can speak. I am not able to continue speaking for an unlimited time, and some members are excited about that rule.

However, let us talk about rules we should really be excited about, the ones that protect our personal safety, the ones that keep this workplace safe. I am not just talking about for members of Parliament. At the end of the day, the members who are here, including you, Madam Speaker, put our names on a ballot. With that, we accept certain risks, but it is really abhorrent to me that the situation of the employees here, the journalists and the pages, who may themselves be vulnerable, is not considered, and that some of the members opposite are unvaccinated. They will not say how many.

The member talks about the fact that people who are double vaccinated could work in a workplace. What about them? We do not know how many people are unvaccinated. This is a workplace where we expect people to be vaccinated.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Madam Speaker, what my colleague from Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie just said was fascinating. He has been taking part in demonstrations all over Montreal for the past two months. I guess that means he checked that all the protesters were vaccinated before showing up.

On top of that, this is coming from a francophone. We francophones have had countless problems with the interpretation. Even my Liberal colleagues who are francophone and have participated in committee work must realize this. The IT department and its hard-working staff are not to blame for these problems. These problems are the result of people not having their headsets or the headsets not working properly. Committee work was often delayed because of these technical problems and, once again, it was the francophones who suffered.

My friend from Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, who is francophone, does not seem to care at all, just like his francophone friends on the other side of the House. It is a problem, and that is why everyone needs to work here in the House and in committee.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax, ON]

Madam Speaker, the pandemic is very difficult and we are all very tired. This has been going on for a long time, and I do understand the member's point. However, we must continue to work safely and ensure that everyone is safe, especially in terms of their health.

As for the issues with interpretation, I am not stopping the Board of Internal Economy from unequivocally reiterating that the rights of French speakers are essential, as are services for everyone who speaks French. That is quite simple.

Unfortunately, my French is not great and I make mistakes. I do, however, understand why we need a good system for everyone who speaks French better than I do.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Madam Speaker, I have been struggling to understand the Bloc Québécois for the past half-hour. At one point, the Bloc said that it supported a hybrid Parliament system, but then it came out against such a system, before changing its mind again for about two months, only to change its mind once again and speak out against implementing the system right away. I do not understand why the Bloc keeps flip-flopping.

Their buddies in the Conservative Party are easier to understand, since they do not care about public health measures. However, the Bloc Québécois has had four different positions in the past half-hour. I would like to ask the Leader of the Government in the House to explain why the Bloc Québécois has been flip-flopping on this issue and why it does not seem to understand important public health measures.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax, ON]

Madam Speaker, I guess the thing I feel at this time is frustration more than anything else: frustration that we are continuing to have this debate. I can guarantee the members opposite that if they take time to talk to their constituents and Canadians, none of them are saying we should spend two days debating whether or not a vaccine mandate is appropriate for this place. All of them would agree that it should have been dealt with by unanimous consent, but here we are, debating if the sky is blue and if dirt is where plants grow. I do not know why we are debating basic science.

All we are asking for is a safe workplace where people can come in person if they feel comfortable, or people can continue to use the provisions that worked perfectly well during the pandemic to ensure that we have a safe workplace for everybody who works here.

[The Assistant Deputy Speaker, NDP, Carol Hughes]

It is my duty to interrupt the proceedings at this time and put forthwith the question on the motion now before the House.

The question is on the motion. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

No.

[The Assistant Deputy Speaker, NDP, Carol Hughes]

All those in favour of the motion will please say yea.