House of Commons Hansard #54 of the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was debate.

Topics

Standing Orders and ProcedureOrders of the Day

5 p.m.

Green

Paul Manly Green Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC

Madam Speaker, I, for one, really miss being in the House of Commons as I work from home in Nanaimo—Ladysmith, but I do see the value in electronic voting. My father, who was a member of Parliament, said that some MPs would drag themselves from their sick beds, those dealing with cancer, heart disease and other things, to get to the House of Commons to vote. There are things we can take from what we have done with the hybrid Parliament to facilitate the health of members of Parliament and lower our greenhouse gas footprint for those flying back and forth the way we do from the west coast. I would like the member's comments on that.

Standing Orders and ProcedureOrders of the Day

5 p.m.

Liberal

Marie-France Lalonde Liberal Orléans, ON

I will be very quick, Madam Speaker. I very much agree with my colleague.

Standing Orders and ProcedureOrders of the Day

5 p.m.

Bloc

Alain Therrien Bloc La Prairie, QC

Madam Speaker, I am very interested in this particular debate, because I have never gone through this before. I used to be an MNA in Quebec City, and there was no way to speak openly about proposals and amendments aimed at making parliamentary work more firmly rooted in the values of democracy that everyone seeks to defend. I want to make three very simple suggestions.

First of all, my colleague from Saint-Jean suggested something in her speech that I thought was very interesting, and I want to pick up on that. Friday could be a special day. Instead of the usual schedule, we could simply question two ministers, as we did during the special committee on the COVID-19 pandemic.

Between 9:30 a.m. and 11:00 a.m., these discussions could take up to five minutes and include questions and answers of equal length. Since there are approximately 26 ministers and 26 weeks of parliamentary business, each minister would have his or her “required” turn. However, this should not be seen as arm-twisting. This would be about going over the ministers' main portfolios and asking them questions. Ministers could then tell us how they see the current and future situations and defend the government's positions. This would be very good for both sides of the House.

Then from noon until 1:30 p.m., after Oral Questions, we would question a minister chosen by the House leaders. This minister could come back a few times throughout the year, depending on the economic news. In the current situation, we would likely want to hear from the Minister of Public Services and Procurement, the Minister of Health and the Minister of Finance. Rather than asking questions and seeking answers in the oral question period format, we would have time to express our views, ask questions and hope for answers while engaging in a dialogue with the ministers to get to the bottom of things.

This is a similar model to the one used at the Parliament of Quebec, and it is referred to as an interpellation. A minister is chosen and is asked questions for two hours. This allows members to delve deeper into issues and to better understand the policies of the department and the minister in question. I find this to be a useful practice.

We could learn a lot from other parliaments. I have had the opportunity of working in Quebec City and now in Ottawa. My colleague from Orléans has mentioned that she was once an MPP in Ontario. It might be worth seeing how things are done elsewhere and drawing from those examples.

There was a lot of talk about prorogation this summer. This summer's extraordinary circumstances were terrible. Prorogation, during which Parliament is shut down, is a tool that is often, or mainly, used for political reasons. Some might say that it is always used as such, but I am not a historian.

I am a member of the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs, and we are studying this issue. Was this summer's prorogation what it was meant to be? Technically, prorogation refers to putting an end to a parliamentary session and starting from scratch. Normally, a government prorogues Parliament in response to extraordinary circumstances, because it wants to start fresh and send a clear message to people that the government is taking a new, or maybe even better, tack. The point of prorogation is to reset the clock, and there needs to be a clean break. That is how it is supposed to work.

That is why, when the government prorogued Parliament in August, everyone was expecting a lot of changes in the throne speech. That is what people want.

All kinds of theories emerged about why the Liberals prorogued Parliament: there were not enough differences between what was happening before prorogation and the government's throne speech; the WE affair put the government in an awkward position and people were saying the government was trying to put a lid on it; and so on.

I am not trying to play politics, and my colleagues know what I am talking about. We could go on and on about this. I know everyone here has already made up their mind. I am not going to keep talking about this, but my point is that we can change how we do things.

Right now, if a government wants to prorogue, it prorogues. It goes to the Governor General, when there is one, and says it is going to prorogue Parliament. The Governor General's job is to say fine, okay, unless the government is facing a confidence vote, which was the case in 2008 with the Harper government.

In this particular case, when a confidence motion is moved, the Governor General has the right not to be bound to the Prime Minister by telling him that he does not have, or does not appear to have, the confidence of his Parliament because a motion has been moved. The Governor General therefore has the freedom to choose whether he or she has confidence or not.

Personally, as the member for La Prairie and a member of the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs, I listened very carefully to Hugo Cyr, who really enlightened us with his vast knowledge. I would suggest that if the government wants to prorogue Parliament and wants to bind the Governor General to that prorogation, it must have the confidence of Parliament.

In the case where the government says it wants to prorogue Parliament, in the situation we are currently in, if we want to change how things are done, the government should have to ask the members of the House if they agree to prorogue Parliament. That should be a matter of debate.

If the House agrees and says yes, the Prime Minister goes before the Governor General and he or she would be bound by the will to prorogue Parliament. That way, our current Prime Minister could have said in August that he wanted to prorogue Parliament and say why. We would have discussed it and agreed or not to vote on whether that specific situation led us to believe that we should prorogue Parliament. That is one way of doing things. We could move forward with Hugo Cyr's suggestion, which I found very interesting.

I have one last point to make and it has to do with the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner. Going before the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner is not meant to be a walk in the park and is not supposed to happen often. It is supposed to be as rare as seeing a kangaroo on a trampoline. It is rare to see that, but the Prime Minister has been before the commissioner three times. He is on a first-name basis with him. That can only mean that the consequences are not significant enough and at most he gets a slap on the wrist, that is all. It is not enough punishment.

The Ethics Commissioner needs more power so that elected officials, regardless of who, never want to have to appear before him again and so that they understand that appearing before the commissioner is not a pleasant experience. That way, we can guarantee that MPs will be more careful about following the rules because more serious sanctions could be imposed on them by the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, who will have the power to take more aggressive action.

That is another suggestion that I wanted to make. I am not trying to rewrite history or play politics. However, we know that the Prime Minister has appeared before the Ethics Commissioner three times. He was reprimanded twice and is going back again a third time. Eventually, it begins to seem as though appearing before the Ethics Commissioner really is not as bad as all that. I therefore think that we should give the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner more power. With that, I will conclude my speech.

Standing Orders and ProcedureOrders of the Day

5:10 p.m.

Winnipeg North Manitoba

Liberal

Kevin Lamoureux LiberalParliamentary Secretary to the President of the Queen’s Privy Council for Canada and to the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons

Madam Speaker, my question is with regard to Fridays. Every 10 years or so, the number of MPs in the House of Commons increases, yet the amount of time available for debate continues, in my opinion, to diminish.

When the member talks about Fridays and alternative uses, to what degree would he support ensuring that members of Parliament have more opportunity to debate legislative measures, whether they are with respect to the government or to private members' hour? Would he support enhancing Fridays to ensure that this takes place?

Standing Orders and ProcedureOrders of the Day

5:10 p.m.

Bloc

Alain Therrien Bloc La Prairie, QC

Madam Speaker, my hon. colleague is right. If our suggestions for Fridays were implemented, it would mean less time for debating bills. However, I would like to remind him that, when we ask ministers questions, we are doing our job as legislators and as parliamentarians. We are doing the job that we were elected to do and the job that voters expect us to do. It is not a waste of time. That being said, we could make up for the time spent talking to ministers by moving those missing hours to other times during the week.

Standing Orders and ProcedureOrders of the Day

5:10 p.m.

Conservative

Tom Kmiec Conservative Calgary Shepard, AB

Madam Speaker, I thank the member for his intervention. I would like to add that the Legislative Assembly of Alberta was prorogued five times between 2015 and 2019. We are not known for proroguing, but the provincial government does use this tool almost every year, unlike the other jurisdictions in Canada.

I would comment that I like what the member is proposing for Fridays. We could extend Friday's oral question period as we did during meetings of the Special Committee on the COVID-19 Pandemic. In committee of the whole, we had five minutes to ask a minister several questions to have a real exchange and a real debate. This would be a better formula for debate and for getting answers to our questions on Friday.

Standing Orders and ProcedureOrders of the Day

5:15 p.m.

Bloc

Alain Therrien Bloc La Prairie, QC

Madam Speaker, I would like to take this opportunity to say that my colleague speaks outstanding French. Every time I listen to him, I am extremely impressed and I enjoy his excellent spoken French. I believe compliments are in order, in the circumstances.

My colleague agrees with us that we should hold such debates on Fridays. I think it would benefit everyone and that it would not be advantageous just for the opposition. This summer, when we sat in committee of the whole, we noted that ministers generally did well, answered questions, made clear arguments and that we could learn more than we do in question period.

I am convinced that if we asked certain ministers, they would say that they liked the formula because it gave them the time to better explain their positions and their actions so that people could understand the objective of the policies put in place. Why not use that formula?

Standing Orders and ProcedureOrders of the Day

5:15 p.m.

NDP

Richard Cannings NDP South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC

Madam Speaker, I want to quickly continue with the comments around Fridays.

I am very much in favour of keeping Friday sittings. In fact, I would be happy if they were extended to full days, especially if that would mean we would not be sitting longer during the week. I think our weekday sittings are long enough as it is.

I think I am open to changing them somewhat. Maybe we could have two private members' business slots or a longer question period but still keep time for government orders so that would move smoothly. If it was a hybrid session, a lot of those people who have gone home could take part as well.

I just want to let him expand on that.

Standing Orders and ProcedureOrders of the Day

5:15 p.m.

Bloc

Alain Therrien Bloc La Prairie, QC

Madam Speaker, my answer will be brief.

We are discussing things, making suggestions, and figuring out what would be best for everyone. Changes should be put to a vote and adopted by the majority. Obviously, not everyone will agree with my position or my colleague's. That is what debate is for. We discuss things and then decide by majority vote.

Standing Orders and ProcedureOrders of the Day

5:15 p.m.

Liberal

Mark Gerretsen Liberal Kingston and the Islands, ON

Madam Speaker, it is a real honour to rise today and participate in this debate. I have been listening since the beginning, and one of the reflections I have is about how open this debate has been in terms of people expressing their own opinions. It is quite refreshing to have been part of this and to hear what people genuinely think.

People are only really going to participate in this debate if they like procedure and like talking about how the House works. It is very clear that people's discussions today are coming from their own perspectives and their own ideas. In the same way, I will be sharing my opinions based on what I have observed over the last five years, or almost six years now, I guess.

I remember the very first time we had this debate after I was first elected. I took quite an interest in what was being discussed, because it is a unique opportunity to reflect on the way we operate and how we can improve it. I know the legislation enabling this debate to occur is fairly new, at least within the last few decades, and it is a vitally important part of the democratic function of this House. I doubt that a lot of the suggestions coming from here have ever really made headway, but at least we have the place to have this discussion.

A number of people have spoken in favour of electronic voting. I will not get into the details of that and rehash what other people have said, but I want to voice my support for the position that it is time for this House to adopt a form of electronic voting. We would not have to worry about people being able to see people standing in their place, and every vote would be a recorded vote and be put in Hansard. I am not even saying it has to be done in the way we are going to test this evening with remote voting, but just to have the voting capacity at our own individual desks would be good.

What I really want to talk about today is the quality of the debate in this House, and I want to talk about two parts of what goes on in here. I know I talked about this the last time, but it is something I am passionate about, and it actually involves the Speaker's role in this House. The two parts I want to talk about when I address the quality of debate are question period and the normal debate periods, such as the one we are having right now.

There is a problem with the fact that over the last few decades, we have arrived at a point where the Speaker holds a list, whether it is during question period or the regular time for debate. I am sure these changes were made with good intentions, but some consequences have come of them. What has been created is a scenario in which we do not really participate in a debate in terms of listening to what other people say, challenging their ideas and putting forward our own ideas. Instead, we come in here and stand for 10 minutes, give a speech, whether it is written in advance or off the cuff, answer some questions and then leave.

Part of the problem is that the Speaker has a list and is going through the list of who is going to be called and at what time. In this scenario, if I know I want to speak to a certain bill, I then ask my whip's desk to put me on the list. I get on the list and then I am told that I am speaking at approximately 20 after 10, although it depends on whether we get bumped around by votes and stuff. This gives me the ability to say to myself that I am going to be speaking at 20 after 10, so I will be in the House just shortly after 10 o'clock, and I know I can take a meeting back in my office later on at 11 o'clock because that will give me enough of a buffer. I can kind of plan my day around that. The problem there is that I am not participating in a debate; I am just giving a speech and then answering some questions afterward.

Let us say I was forced to come here to sit and listen, and every time the Speaker said “resuming debate”, I would get out of my chair to try to catch his or her eye. I am sure there are ways for the Speaker to ensure fairness in the distribution of turns. However, if I were forced to do that, I would be forced to listen to what other people had to say. Debating is probably more about listening than about what one has to say. Since the 1990s, or whenever the Speaker started to develop these lists, they have been detrimental to the quality of the debate in the House.

I will also bring the following, as it relates to question period. What I have found so refreshing about today's discussion is that it has not been so partisan, and I say this with regard to both sides of the aisle. Quite often the opposition will say that the Liberals are not answering questions, that we are reading pre-programmed answers. I am not going to deny that. I think it has happened when both Conservatives and Liberals have been in power.

I also think that when there is a script for who is going to ask a question, the opposition, in this case who ask the majority of the questions, are also going to become very scripted. For example, the member for Carleton usually asks two or three questions in a row. He will set up his first question. He kind of knows the answer that he is going to get and tees it up for the next one, and then he gets to hit the home run, if he is successful, with the last question he asks. It has become very scripted because he knows he will have three questions at specific time and that he will be following on the back of another member who had questions that set him up, as well.

In one sense, it is arguable that answers are not being really given to the questions being asked. It is also easy to criticize the questions being asked and the manner in which they are being asked. I genuinely think that if it were a member's role to get the eye of the Speaker and the Speaker said that a certain member had not asked a question in a while and went to that person, without their knowing they would be getting the next question, it would make them know their material so that when they do get up, they are ready. It would eliminate the habit of our writing a question in advance and practising it 20 or 30 times to get the perfect clip. It would also prevent ministers from being prepared because the questions would not be the same every single day in the exact same order. It would really free up the place we have come to where everything is scripted and happening in a certain order. It would improve discourse in this place.

We can think about what is most important here. I know there have been a ton of good topics that have come up today, and people have contributed and talked about different ways they think this place could function better. I agree with almost all of them. There are always some details that need to be fine-tuned and for us to really look into things, but it is an opportunity to improve the quality of what goes on here.

The heart of what we do here is debating. It is bringing forward ideas from around the country, from the people we represent, the mandate we think they have given to us to bring here and to represent them here. At the same time, it is not just about coming here and yelling out one's position. It is about listening to the positions of other people from around the country. Having that opportunity to hear what other people have to say and to listen to it, by kind of being forced to listen to it, is so incredibly important.

I have really enjoyed the discussion today. I enjoyed listening to all members in the House and those who have been contributing virtually to the discussion. It has been very rewarding to hear their personal opinions on this, and not their partisan takes on it.

Standing Orders and ProcedureOrders of the Day

February 1st, 2021 / 5:25 p.m.

Conservative

Mike Lake Conservative Edmonton—Wetaskiwin, AB

Madam Speaker, I would like to point out to the hon. member that the reason the member for Carleton is so effective in his approach is that he knows exactly what the scripted Liberal ministers' responses are going to be.

I did listen carefully and I liked where he was going in terms of the debate. It is rare I find some common ground with the member, but I have been thinking about an idea, of getting 30-minute spans of time, including the Q and A. We could break it down into two sometimes.

I would like to throw out another idea for discussion. What if we allowed to break up more of the time into maybe three speeches instead of two, and what if we allowed more Q and A time and a bit less speech time so that we could have more of the back and forth that the member talks about. I think he was on a good track and I want to hear his thoughts on that.

Standing Orders and ProcedureOrders of the Day

5:25 p.m.

Liberal

Mark Gerretsen Liberal Kingston and the Islands, ON

Madam Speaker, I personally think that would be beneficial. Someone else mentioned having the option of doing a five-minute speech and 10 minutes of questions and answers. A member across the way talked about yielding one's time and bringing it back. I totally agree with that.

If I only have two minutes of material, why do I need to stand here for 10 minutes to fill an additional eight minutes of time? Why can I not let discussion happen during that time otherwise? Obviously, the devil is in the details and we would want to look into the particulars of it. To the member's point, I am totally open to the idea of changing that in order to be more flexible.

Standing Orders and ProcedureOrders of the Day

5:25 p.m.

NDP

Richard Cannings NDP South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC

Madam Speaker, this is more of a comment, because my colleague did not mention it during his speech. I just want to amplify what the member for Nanaimo—Ladysmith and the member for Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke said about elimination of Friday sittings.

There is a misconception among members, especially those from Ontario and Quebec, who are close to Ottawa that getting rid of Friday sittings would help those of us who represent far-flung ridings. It is really quite the opposite. If we got rid of Friday sittings and I were working in Ottawa on Thursday, I would not get home until Friday afternoon. I would have Saturday in the riding, and then I would have to leave Sunday morning to come back for Monday. If I am going to stay in Ottawa for the weekend, I would rather have Fridays as a full working day when we could get something done, and especially not extend sittings during the week.

Standing Orders and ProcedureOrders of the Day

5:30 p.m.

Liberal

Mark Gerretsen Liberal Kingston and the Islands, ON

Madam Speaker, I totally agree. My father was in the provincial legislature in Ontario and he did not sit at home on Fridays and do nothing. He was in his constituency office meeting with stakeholders, doing important work and preparing. I totally see the benefit, from what this member is suggesting. He is absolutely right.

My seatmate in the previous session of Parliament was from Kelowna. From the stories he would tell me about how long it would take him to get home, in order to do these things a member's whole weekend is totally blown. Especially in regard to being family friendly, I do not have any problem with that personally.

Standing Orders and ProcedureOrders of the Day

5:30 p.m.

Green

Elizabeth May Green Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC

Madam Speaker, I know that the hon. member for Kingston and the Islands is very concerned about climate and our carbon footprints. I have been advancing for some years the idea that our Parliament should work three weeks on, three weeks off. I call it the “Fort Mac work schedule”. We would be able to work right through Friday and half a day Saturday, so that none of our constituents or Canadians would think we were working fewer hours. We could get a lot more done, and our constituents would reliably know that we would be home for three weeks working in the constituency. I ask for the member's comments.

Standing Orders and ProcedureOrders of the Day

5:30 p.m.

Liberal

Mark Gerretsen Liberal Kingston and the Islands, ON

I certainly appreciate where the member is going, Madam Speaker. I drove here in an electric car and will drive home. I hope that is minimizing my footprint as much as possible. I am reluctant to weigh in on three weeks of being away from my two-year-old, my four-year-old and my 15-year-old. However, I know where the member is going with this, and looking for solutions like that could definitely benefit our environment. Anything that we can do warrants discussion.

Standing Orders and ProcedureOrders of the Day

5:30 p.m.

Conservative

Marilyn Gladu Conservative Sarnia—Lambton, ON

Madam Speaker, it is a pleasure to talk about the Standing Orders. This is always a debate that I very much enjoy.

The rules of the House govern how we do our work in the House of Commons, and so, before we talk about the rules and how we might want to change them, I think it is important to talk about why we have these rules and what we are hoping to achieve with them. I would offer that the rules are there to help us create an environment where we have a professional, respectful discourse that promotes efficient work, such as on bills and on all of the statements and petitions and all of the other work the House does, and also so that we can represent our ridings from across the country. That is why we have come here.

Why should members listen to me about what I think we ought to do in the House? I am a valued member of the House, so that is one reason, but I would say I have a few credentials that they may want to consider. The first is that twice in the last six years I have been voted the most collegial parliamentarian, so I think I know something about being professional and respectful and working co-operatively.

The other thing members might want to consider is that I am the first female engineer in the House of Commons. Engineers are all about efficiency, and in my 32-year career I spent a lot of time talking about work processes, the efficiency or work processes and how to change work processes. In fact, when we had the last debate under S. O. 51s and I gave my speech with all of my ideas, the late Arnold Chan actually came across the aisle and said to me that I had a lot of really good ideas and asked if he could have a copy of my speech. I am pleased to say that a couple of the ideas I offered have actually started to happen in reality. One of them was that, in order to be family friendly, we should be holding most of our votes after question period. I see that, in most cases, that is what we are doing. I also suggested that we should be doing electronic voting. I suggested that in 2015. Here we are, and it is happening, and so I would offer the rest of my suggestions to the House, not in any particular order of priority, but as different ideas that I think might help improve the work here.

The first has to do with our S. O. 31s. I really enjoy hearing from members when they honour their constituents, paying tribute to someone who has passed away, for example, or even when the member does do infomercials for their parties. I think these are all good, but I notice that not everybody really gets a chance to do them as often as they should, and so I think we should apply the same kind of lottery that we do for Private Members' Business. We should let it be a second lottery, so that if a member loses out and is late in the game on Private Members' Business, maybe they can be earlier in the game on S. O. 31s. Then we just continue to roll over the list in that order, so that everybody from ridings across the country has a chance to make their statements and make an impact.

Second, I notice that when we come to second reading and there is unanimous consent for a bill, we send the bill to committee and then it comes back here for report stage and third reading. If we unanimously agree at second reading, let us send it off to the Senate and call it a day. We all agree. Let us shorten the time to get some of this legislation in place. I think that would be beneficial. Then we could have more discussion of new bills.

Another point is on the dress code in the House. There was some discussion earlier about the dress code. One of the things, as a menopausal woman, that I have appreciated is that women are able to bare our arms in the House. We have the right to bare our arms, one might say. However, for my male colleagues, I have seen them when it is hot in the House and they are forced to wear their jackets. It is quite uncomfortable for them. Perhaps we should be setting a dress code in the summer that allows them to wear short sleeves, but a tie, so we are still maintaining decorum but are all comfortable, so that we can participate in and endure the discussion.

In terms of hours, private members' bills are very important. As somebody who passed a private member's bill on palliative care to get consistent access to such care for all Canadians, I can tell members that it was a real thrill. I think it was valuable to the country.

There are a lot of great ideas from all parties on Private Members' Business, but not everybody will get a chance to do that. However, we could alter the way we do hours in the House to try to double up the amount of time we have for Private Members' Business.

For example, we could decide to start from Monday to Friday at 9 a.m., which regular business does, and devote that extra time to Private Members' Business. We could have a few extra hours on Monday and an extra hour Tuesday. We could maybe start at 1 p.m. on Wednesday to have another hour and then another on Thursday and Friday. We could double the time for Private Members' Business, which would help everybody in a parliamentary session get through and contribute his or her private member's bill. That would be a great improvement for the House.

We talked about having votes after QP whenever possible. However, one thing to consider is the elimination of the all-night voting, especially for members who have medical issues, or who are seniors or for our families. Extending the hours to 10 p.m. or 11 p.m. gets the point across for the media to pick up that there is an issue that the opposition wants to bring forward, but we really do not need to torture ourselves all night.

There was some commentary on how maybe 10 or 20 minutes was not the right time frame for speeches in the House.

When I was first elected, I was asked if I could speak for some time on the withdrawal of the CF-18s from the ISIS fight. I said that I could do a couple of minutes on that, but I was told I had 10 or 20 minutes on the subject. I said I could say everything I had to say in two minutes, but that was not the way we did things. I ended up putting eight minutes of filler into the two minutes of what I really wanted to say. As I sit in the House and listen to other members, a lot of filler happens that does not need to happen. I would encourage breaking it up in some way so we would either have two five-minute speeches with the five minutes of questions to either one of them or allow the flexibility.

I really enjoyed the COVID sessions we had this summer. We had five minutes of questions in question period. I thought the quality of questions was better with respect to getting very specific and the answers were better, which was a good thing for our discourse.

Also, I would like to hear questions being answered. The standard talking points is a disservice to Canadians, especially when people do not answer the questions at all and move on to a different topic. That is not good.

When a lot of issues are going on and time is short, a lot of people do not even hear one speech on the issue before it shows up at the committee for consideration. I would rather see each party come with two or three speakers who have the diversity of thought from their caucus and have everybody sit in the House and listen to all of it so we all understand the issues before it shows up at committee. That would really help with the debate.

We also need to have better respect for one another. We have talked about heckling. I am not a fan of heckling, although I like the idea of intelligent heckling in the written comments. However, in general, we should not be talking when other people are talking. We should be treating our colleagues with respect. There should not be bullying, piling on and insulting going on. This is not helpful to the discourse of the House and it is not helpful to any of us.

On Questions on the Order Paper, every day, the government House leader gets up and asks that the remaining questions be allowed to stand. I have only been here for six years, but I have never heard anyone say no. We should strike that inefficiency. The question should always be allowed to stand.

I liked the idea of the late show questions answered by parliamentary secretaries. We should include all the rules of a pandemic sitting in the Standing Orders. I have more recommendations, but my time is up.

Standing Orders and ProcedureOrders of the Day

5:40 p.m.

Yukon Yukon

Liberal

Larry Bagnell LiberalParliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Economic Development and Official Languages (Canadian Northern Economic Development Agency)

Madam Speaker, I hope everyone can hear me this time.

Congratulations to the member for a very thoughtful speech. She mentioned private members' bills. I have a comment and then a question.

As I said earlier, if we had a parallel house or second House of Commons as they do in Britain and Australia, we could work on many more private members' bills.

My question relates to this. A lot of private members' bills do not go very far. One reason is that they have not been scrutinized by bureaucratic experts. No matter which party is in power, a lot of government bills are fixed or do not go forward because of the experts, who have spent their entire lives on that topic, weighing in and at least giving their opinion.

Does the member think that a way to have more private members' bills go through would be getting expert opinions, or further information, on the bills from a relevant department's experts who have spent their lives studying the issues?

Standing Orders and ProcedureOrders of the Day

5:40 p.m.

Conservative

Marilyn Gladu Conservative Sarnia—Lambton, ON

Madam Speaker, when my private member's bill passed, I was surprised to find that fewer than 300 people had ever passed one in the House. I think there is not enough training, especially for new members, to understand that the legislative clerks have to check all of the other bills and acts in the House to make sure that everything is allowable and everything is in the bill that needs to be.

I think maybe lessons for the newbies on how to do a private member's bill might be very good.

Standing Orders and ProcedureOrders of the Day

5:45 p.m.

Conservative

Tom Kmiec Conservative Calgary Shepard, AB

Madam Speaker, during her first speech the member showed us that if we are speaking from our offices we should always have our hands moving and speak with our hands to set off the motion sensors and keep the lights from going off in our offices. She brought up a lot of really good points and a lot of things that should be considered. She spoke about the culture of Parliament and how we do our business here, so I want to hear her thoughts on this.

There used to be a practice in the House that, during an opposition supply day, the minister responsible for the file would sit through the whole debate and sometimes participate in it. I know of one Harper-era minister who did this consistently on immigration issues. It actually convinced opposition parties not to do it as often on his particular files.

What does the member think of that? It does not need to be a Standing Order change, but perhaps bring back a tradition that has fallen by the wayside over the years.

Standing Orders and ProcedureOrders of the Day

5:45 p.m.

Conservative

Marilyn Gladu Conservative Sarnia—Lambton, ON

Madam Speaker, I think that if we respect the work that is being done here in the House, if an opposition day motion is brought up on a subject under a minister's control, that that minister should want to hear about the issue. Do they have to be here the whole day? Some representative, either the minister or their parliamentary secretary, should definitely be here to hear the fulsome comments that are made, so that they can address the concerns raised.

Standing Orders and ProcedureOrders of the Day

5:45 p.m.

NDP

Daniel Blaikie NDP Elmwood—Transcona, MB

Madam Speaker, I know there has been a little bit of talk about heckling today and how we might be able to do it better, get rid of it or replace it. In some other legislatures, they have a procedure by which members can indicate they would like to interject with a brief question or comment. The person who is speaking can choose whether that person may stand up briefly during their time and offer a question or comment, or whether they are not ready for that. If they are in full rhetorical swing, they might decline that option.

Even on the floor of the House, there are ways that we could do a better job of fulfilling the important function that heckling sometime plays, without the negative consequences. I wonder if the member might have some comments on that.

Standing Orders and ProcedureOrders of the Day

5:45 p.m.

Conservative

Marilyn Gladu Conservative Sarnia—Lambton, ON

Madam Speaker, intelligent heckling with intelligent points would be good, especially when we have seen over time that the practice of the House is not to mislead Canadians: not to lie.

That is why it was improper, during parliamentary procedure, to say that someone was lying. It was built on the premise that someone was not going to lie. I have seen a big departure from that. Intelligent heckling is calling people to account when they are misleading Canadians or not presenting the facts. I would love to have a fact checker in the House of Commons.

Standing Orders and ProcedureOrders of the Day

5:45 p.m.

Green

Elizabeth May Green Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC

Madam Speaker, it is an honour to take the floor today to speak to many issues that I am very passionate about. As the hon. member for Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame mentioned earlier, we are on something called a democracy caucus and there are a number of us who are very passionate, including the member for Elmwood—Transcona, among others, and we want to see our rules reflect what Canadians most want.

I believe that Canadians most want a Parliament where we show respect for each other, as we do in real life when we are not fomenting a lot of rage for the cameras. I thank the hon. member for Sarnia—Lambton for her role as being the most congenial over and over again. I think, as a group, we are actually quite congenial, and I think Canadians would like to see more of that.

I reflect very much on the reality of our principles. Westminster parliamentary democracy is based on the principle that all members of Parliament are equal. Each of us equal to the other, and the Prime Minister is merely first among equals. I set those principles against a finding within a 2008 report from Queen's University in Kingston, the Centre for the Study of Democracy and Diversity, which concluded that our Parliament has become “executive-centred, party-dominated and adversarial”. I do not think that is what Canadians want, and it is not our parliamentary tradition. It comes from a number of trends which are disturbing. Our Standing Orders can be used to reverse those trends.

First, I want to focus on a couple of the big issues. Then I hope I will have enough time to get to some of the other ones. The first big issue before us is that we are speaking on Zoom. Who would have thought it a year ago? Our Parliament is assembling virtually and our speaker is in the chair wearing her mask. These are all new innovations in response to a pandemic.

I would like to propose that, when our recommendations from today's debate go to the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs, it give serious consideration to creating a set of Standing Orders for use in public health emergencies. Whether it is a pandemic, or some other event that prevents us from meeting in person, we would be able to meet virtually. We should preserve the Standing Orders that work best through this period and continue to use them.

In relation to distance voting, we should not have distance voting except under particular circumstances. I say this because I have seen too often colleagues who have come literally from their deathbeds to a vote in the House. I know some members have suggested vote pairing would do it. That would not have worked in the case of the late hon. member for Ottawa—Vanier, Mauril Bélanger. If he had not personally come into the House in order to vote, his private member's bill would have died because of procedural shenanigans.

I think of the Conservative member from Orléans, the late Royal Galipeau. In specific circumstances, very narrowly related to people dealing with an illness that requires them to be hospitalized, at their option, members should be able to vote virtually. Otherwise, we should be in Parliament. Whether we do electronic voting from our desks to speed things up, which is a possibility the hon. member for Yukon has proposed and so has the member for Sarnia—Lambton, I do not think it should be normal that we vote at distance. Being together in the House really matters to the business of democracy. It definitely helps us to be more collegial when we can have hallway conversations and are not just chatting over Zoom.

The second big change in our Standing Orders that I would like to see, and it is a strong concern of the hon. member for Elmwood—Transcona, is the question of the confidence convention, or when we prorogue and when the House is able to end. We ought to look at the advice from two strong political scientists in this country, Professor Hugo Cyr from Montreal and Professor Emeritus Peter Russell from the University of Toronto. Both have forcefully suggested to the House on different occasions that no Prime Minister should be able to go to the Governor General to ask to dissolve the House without first obtaining approval from the House of Commons by a vote of the House.

As well, there is something that I hope that the procedure and House affairs will look into, which is called the constructive non-confidence vote. It has been advanced by both Professor Hugo Cyr and Professor Peter Russell. This would allow us, as is possible in Germany, Spain and Sweden, for example, to actually put forward a government as defeated, but with a government to put in its place, so that every confidence vote that is lost does not lead automatically to an election. An election is avoided if a combination of parties in the House can put together a functional government in the view of a governor general.

Some issues relating to decorum and respect for each other in the House do not require changing Standing Orders. I just want to flag that some of the issues we have discussed today are actually amenable to being resolved without changing the Standing Orders.

Our Standing Orders still say that no member of Parliament can read a speech. Regarding canned speeches, presenting a 10-minute speech with five minutes of questions and answers does not really allow us to engage in debate with each other. If, as some members have agreed, we should be able to speak from a handful of notes but not a prepared speech word for word, it would engage members in discussion.

It would also keep the list of speakers available to speak to legislation, about which we may all be in violent agreement, to a very low number. If a party backroom could not decide, it could put up an endless number of speeches and keep the government off balance, not telling the government how much time it would need for them.

Another area that does not require a change in the Standing Orders is a practice in Canada that is unique among all the Commonwealth nations that use the system of Westminster parliamentary democracy, in which the Speaker surrenders his or her ability to choose who speaks next during Question Period to the party whip. It has an interesting history that goes back to former Speaker Jeanne Sauvé saying she had trouble seeing people at the end of the Chamber.

The balance of power in that situation shifts from members of Parliament wanting to make the Speaker pleased with how they behave in the House to making their party whip pleased with how they behave in the House. This tends to increase partisanship, increase party control and reduce decorum.

A very good point made by a number of members, including the member for Calgary Rocky Ridge, is that we should look at what is done in the U.K. Parliament, in London, where a member can cede the floor to another member who is rising. This is a really good practice, but it would not work under our current Standing Orders. We would have to change the Standing Orders to make this work. Right now nobody can speak unless our Speaker calls the hon. member for a named riding.

In Parliament at Westminster, the Speaker decides who asks questions of the Prime Minister through letters that are sent to the Speaker's office. Once the Speaker has given the floor to an hon. member, and I will use the example of the member for Brighton Pavilion because she is the only Green Party member, that speaker then has 20 minutes, or however long, to speak. Within that period of time, she can yield the floor to someone else who is rising. The Speaker in the Chamber can be chatting with someone else off to the side, because the time is allotted to that speaker. I have observed this.

They are engaged in discussion and debate, and because they are not using canned speeches, as the reading of speeches is prohibited in the U.K. Parliament, quite often they cede the floor to a friendly questioner, or an unfriendly questioner. It gives the speaker a chance to have a sip of water. The discussion is interesting, it is engaging, and the citizens of the U.K. get to experience a more engaged, informed and interesting parliamentary exchange than what we have with canned speeches and the inability to yield the floor to anyone until our time is up.

I have raised a lot of other concerns briefly today in the House. It is an unanswerable question. How do we organize ourselves in a country as vast as Canada? Some of us, such as the hon. member for Yukon, have the world's worst schedule. Full praise to the member. I have at least two flights, and when we are not holding virtual sittings because of COVID, I am travelling back and forth every week. I live in a state of perpetual exhaustion and jet lag.

How do we fix this so that those people who have young children can be home with their children? Can we reduce greenhouse gases? We have saved the people of Canada millions of dollars this year by working on Zoom. Can we figure out a way to change our schedule to better accommodate our carbon footprint and the livability of the schedules of MPs who also have families?

With that, I look forward to questions.

Standing Orders and ProcedureOrders of the Day

5:55 p.m.

Liberal

Scott Simms Liberal Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL

Madam Speaker, I wholeheartedly agree with the vast majority of what my colleague from Saanich—Gulf Islands is saying, even to the point that I have accepted the notion of this Fort McMurray turnaround for parliamentarians that goes three weeks on and three weeks off. I did not in the beginning, until we struck up a conversation and I realized she speaks quite a bit of truth there.

I want to get her opinion on what we discussed earlier about a parallel chamber.