House of Commons Hansard #79 of the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was c-22.

Topics

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

11:10 a.m.

Outremont Québec

Liberal

Rachel Bendayan LiberalParliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Small Business

Madam Speaker, my colleague's speech touched mostly on gun control. I would argue that taking assault rifles off our streets will absolutely help to reduce gun violence.

However, on the subject of Bill C-22, it is important to note that the Conservatives put forward legislation for mandatory minimums and we did not see a reduction in the amount of violence in Canada.

By eliminating mandatory minimums, this bill proposes to put the power in the hands of our judicial system and our judges to determine the best sentence possible in the circumstances. We know that mandatory minimums disproportionately affect indigenous and Black offenders, and they do not work.

What is the member's position on mandatory minimums?

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Kevin Waugh Conservative Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK

Madam Speaker, I rise on a point of order. Once again, we see the member without a headset. We all know that translation in the House of Commons is very tough. Clearly, the member does not have a headset today. How do you allow a question without a headset?

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

11:10 a.m.

NDP

The Assistant Deputy Speaker NDP Carol Hughes

I do apologize. I did not notice that the member did not have her headset on. I will double-checked to ensure the interpreters did hear. There was no problem for the them.

I want to thank the member for Saskatoon—Grasswood for raising that point of order. I want to remind all members to ensure they have their headsets on before they speak.

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

11:15 a.m.

NDP

Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON

Madam Speaker, I rise on a point of order. Far be it for me to challenge the Chair, but the question is not whether the interpreters heard it. We have been told in our caucuses that there is a health and safety risk to the interpreters because of the lack of the use of headsets. That is the question. It is not whether the interpreters heard it and can pass on the question; it is that there has to be respect for the interpreters and their protection because they are doing this day in and day out.

I would ask the Chair to consider reminding members that it is not just that they should but they have to wear their headsets. If they are not, they should not be putting questions.

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11:15 a.m.

NDP

The Assistant Deputy Speaker NDP Carol Hughes

I appreciate the additional information the hon. member for Timmins—James Bay has brought forward. I certainly am very aware of the challenges this brings for the interpreters.

The reason I asked whether the interpretation had been heard was that I would have asked the hon. member to repeat her question, with the mike on, to ensure the question was heard.

Again, I do want to remind the member, and I will do my best to recognize whether members have their headsets on before questions are asked. I know I looked at it for the member giving her speech, because it was difficult to see if she had it on.

I will go to the hon. member for Lakeland for a response.

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

April 13th, 2021 / 11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Shannon Stubbs Conservative Lakeland, AB

Madam Speaker, I am not sure what legislation the members who are raising this issue are reading. Frankly, I do not know if they are actually examining the fact that Bill C-22 would reduce mandatory prison times, eliminate mandatory prison times for these firearms offences, robbery with a firearm, extortion with a firearm, weapons trafficking, importing or exporting knowing it is unauthorized, discharging a firearm with intent, using a firearm in commission of offences, possession of firearms knowing its possession is unauthorized, possession of a prohibited restricted firearms with ammunition, possession of a weapon obtained by commission of offence, possession for purpose of weapons trafficking, discharging a firearm with recklessness. Members who do not recognize that these are in the legislation and do not want to talk about them are not applying the scrutiny and due diligence to the bill as they ought to.

The reason the front half of my speech focused on that is because that is what Bill C-22 would do. I also focused on all the other violent crimes for which the consequences would be lightened and softened by Bill C-22. That is also what the bill would do. Elected representatives—

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

11:15 a.m.

NDP

The Assistant Deputy Speaker NDP Carol Hughes

There are many others who want to ask questions.

Questions and comments, the hon. member for Thérèse-De Blainville.

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11:15 a.m.

Bloc

Louise Chabot Bloc Thérèse-De Blainville, QC

Madam Speaker, I am trying to understand the member's approach.

We all remember that under a Conservative government, the system was very judicialized in areas that warranted a different approach. That is what this bill seeks to do. Evidence suggests that some measures and the way certain offences are handled are ineffective. Criminalization leads precisely to outcomes we do not want. In Quebec, there has been a heavy focus on rehabilitation for certain issues.

Why do the Conservatives fail to recognize that this evidence on offences shows that this is more of a public health issue than a public safety issue?

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Shannon Stubbs Conservative Lakeland, AB

Madam Speaker, I do not think I have a single constituent in Lakeland who actually thinks that prison breach, criminal harassment, sexual assault, kidnapping, trafficking persons for material benefit, abduction of a person under 14, motor vehicle theft, theft over $5,000, breaking and entering a place, being unlawfully in a dwelling house, arson for fraudulent purposes, causing bodily harm by criminal negligence, assault causing bodily harm or with a weapon and assaulting a peace officer causing bodily harm or with a weapon are in any way, shape or form minor offences, as the member just said.

I think Canadians expect the government to stand up for the rule of law, put victims first, stand up for their rights, target violent criminals, sexual offenders and criminal gains, ensure the Criminal Code protects Canadians and changes and evolves as public safety and crime trends shift. As well, as MPs, also relative to the question asked to me previously, we must be willing to reflect the values of the people we represent. That is what I am doing here.

My constituents, and I believe all Canadians, consider these crimes to be extremely serious. They want the system to combat them. By reducing mandatory sentences for serious crimes, Bill C-22 says that elected representatives do not need establish any bottom lines, do not have to set any automatic consequences. It would turn the government's back on those who need its support and need to know right now more than ever that someone has their backs.

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Damien Kurek Conservative Battle River—Crowfoot, AB

Madam Speaker, it is an honour to stand once again in this House and participate in an important debate. I plan to address two major themes in my speech. The first has to do with the fact that it seems the members opposite are simply not aware of what is contained in this bill. This bill actually reduces some of the penalties for serious firearms offences. I will get into the specifics of that here in a moment. The second is the larger topic of conversation surrounding being soft on crime and the very troubling trends that we see, not only with this bill, but with some of the larger context of how the government is failing victims.

First, on firearms, I find it absolutely tragic that we are debating firearms in this place in a way that completely ignores the facts. The members opposite will talk about how it is important to ban assault rifles and these military-style weapons, when very few members opposite understand the reality of what they are talking about. The reality is truly a trifecta of misinformation and political rhetoric torqued to the highest extent possible to appeal to a narrow band of political interests that is simply not based on reality.

I have a few examples. The Conservative member for Markham—Unionville brought forward Bill C-238, a bill that was meant to bring many people together to combat a real issue, and that is violent gun crime. However, the Liberals voted against it. How tragic is it that the Liberals, who claim to be targeting law-abiding firearms owners, would absolutely dismiss an attempt by parliamentarians to address some of those issues? It is absolutely shameful.

Second, we see the context of aspects of this debate with last year's order in council banning 1,500 firearms. It was absurd logic. In fact, when I participated in the member of Parliament's briefing for that OIC, the officials who were brought in did not even understand the very basis of the firearms they said they were banning. How absurd is it that we have such a disconnect between the consequences of what I would suggest is a massive overreach of the executive branch, targeting something, and then they torque it up with their rhetoric about how they are somehow taking action on crime? It is shameful, the record of the government.

The members opposite suggest that this somehow does not have relevance to the debate today, which is absurd and again more of their torqued political rhetoric, at a time when they seem to be bent on calling an election in the midst of a pandemic. I would note, as a bit of an aside, that there is a Supreme Court challenge in Newfoundland that has been launched today by an opposition party because of an election there that many would suggest, and certainly this lawsuit suggests, does not have the confidence of the people. It was a Liberal majority, yet the Prime Minister and the government seem bent on stealing power at any cost.

The third aspect of this bill is that it takes the serious criminal offences. Specifically, as I mentioned in the first part of my speech, I want to talk about the firearms side of things. The fact is that they are lessening penalties on serious firearms offences.

The Liberals introduced Bill C-21, literally banning toy guns. They said that was fake news, yet the reality, as we have learned, is that bad legislation creates bad outcomes and does not do what they say they are trying to accomplish. In the same week, they introduced Bill C-22, only a few days later. On Tuesday, they introduced a bill to punish law-abiding Canadians for simply living their lives, in many cases using something that is a tool in many parts of our country.

I come from a rural constituency, where a firearm is a tool like many others. It can be used as a weapon, but so can a baseball bat, a kitchen knife or a van, yet that torqued-up rhetoric based on a blind ideology has labelled so many thousands or millions of Canadians to be somehow criminals.

The same week, only a couple of days later, on a Thursday, the Liberals introduced Bill C-22, eliminating penalties for serious firearms offences. It is absurd that this is what they think they can get away with. Certainly, my constituents see through that absurdity. I hear from Canadians across the country, including the constituents of quite a few members opposite, who are saying they are starting to see through the facade, the political spin that the government is trying to bring on this and how absolutely shameful it is in that regard.

That brings me to the second part of my speech, which addresses some of the other aspects of this bill and the very troubling trend that I would suggest it is setting.

Bill C-22 eliminates a number of those firearms offences and the mandatory prison times, such as robbery with a firearm, discharging a firearm with intent to harm, and weapons trafficking. Those are the problems, not the law-abiding firearms owners.

The Liberals are also proposing in this bill that criminals could serve house arrest rather than jail time for a number of offences, including sexual assault, in the midst of the conversation around sexual assault in the military. I listened to the testimony on the Bastarache report regarding sexual assault in the RCMP and the revelation of how terribly pervasive that is within our society, yet the Liberals, who talk tough, with their woke feminist Prime Minister, are truly being soft and punishing victims at a time when victims deserve an advocate.

There is also trafficking in persons for material benefit and kidnapping. At a time when we are trying to bring awareness to human trafficking, the fact that the Liberals are punishing victims is absolutely absurd and shameful.

There is a series of other offences where the sentences are being reduced. The trends that are being set are very troubling, such as the soft-on-crime approach and ignoring victims. Meanwhile, we have seen, especially in my large constituency in rural east-central Alberta, a massive growth in rural crime and serious offences that have really affected the way of life of my constituents, the ability of Canadians to feel safe in their homes, and so many aspects of the way in which we live.

The Liberals are going to suggest that somehow we, the evil Conservatives, want to punish people for not breaking the law, which is just Liberal spin. It is unfortunate that it has devolved to the point it has, because it is taking away from the seriousness of this debate. It is quite simple. Conservatives are focused on ensuring that Canada's drug laws target individuals who prey on Canadians struggling with addictions through the trafficking and sale of drugs to the victims of what is an opioid pandemic, which is what those drug dealers and gangs deserve. The member for Lakeland, who spoke prior to me, articulated very well the challenges we face regarding drug use in this country. This is not about punishing a victim; it is about ensuring that those who are responsible for those abuses, the gangs, the drug dealers and whatnot, are punished.

The Conservatives have talked about mental health. We believe there needs to be a clear plan on ensuring there is restorative justice and a plan that addresses and helps victims. That is the clear difference here. We have the hug-a-thug mentality from the Liberals on the other side, and we have the Conservatives, who want to stand up for victims. Bill C-22 is incredibly troubling in the context of the bigger picture and the blatant hypocrisy that exists on the firearms debate.

I would conclude by saying that I cannot in good conscience support this. My constituents have overwhelmingly told me that this is a bad bill. I certainly will not be supporting it going forward.

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

11:30 a.m.

Liberal

Kody Blois Liberal Kings—Hants, NS

Madam Speaker, before I had the privilege of representing the people in Kings—Hants, I served as a lawyer, and I can certainly say that not all the factors of each case are the same. Every case is built differently.

Does the member believe that it is his job here in Parliament, and that he is in a better position than the men and women we appoint as judges, to decide the sentences of individuals who commit crimes? Does he think he is better placed here in Parliament than someone who would hear the actual facts of the case?

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11:30 a.m.

Conservative

Damien Kurek Conservative Battle River—Crowfoot, AB

Madam Speaker, there we have it. It is the spin of somehow suggesting that Conservatives are simply wanting to target or prescript offences and whatnot. The reality could not be farther from the truth. Conservatives do believe that serious crime deserves serious time, and the vast majority of Canadians suggest the same. I find it very ironic that the Liberals want to paint this as all being the evil Harper era that brought in all of these things, when it was actually Pierre Elliott Trudeau. They are repealing some laws that date back to the Prime Minister's own father.

To acknowledge the member, a proper balance has to be found. In practice, right now, in the public prosecution service and the discretion of law enforcement there is a great deal of flexibility, but when it comes to serious crimes, there have to be serious penalties for that in this country. Victims deserve it.

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

11:30 a.m.

NDP

Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON

Madam Speaker, we have been working with the Mushkegowuk Council on the fire keeper patrol to deal with the opioid crisis in downtown Timmins, which has caused devastation, to have a mobile team working with the homeless, getting them off the streets and getting them the help they need. That is only part of what we are facing with the devastating impacts of fentanyl and crystal meth in all of our communities. We need to have treatment centres. We have been reaching out to the Liberals saying we need action and we need a commitment. We are losing people every day across the country, and in our communities we have had massive deaths because of fentanyl and the opioid crisis.

I would like to ask my hon. colleague why he thinks it is that we are talking about many things in the House, but we never hear from the Liberal government on the crisis that we are seeing right on the ground in all our communities.

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

11:30 a.m.

Conservative

Damien Kurek Conservative Battle River—Crowfoot, AB

Madam Speaker, I agree. Certainly the pandemic has taken a lot of airtime regarding health issues, but at the same time there has been an epidemic of opioid deaths. In fact, in British Columbia, and I will be forgiven for not having the most recent stats, there were more opioid deaths than there were COVID deaths, at least a number of months ago. I think it is absolutely tragic that we are not taking this seriously.

Part of the reason I am opposed to this bill in particular is that the government seems intent on lessening penalties for those who would be responsible, not the victims who are experiencing mental health challenges and a series of other factors that would lead to addiction, but the people who are bringing these drugs, getting them onto our streets and smuggling them into our country, and the gang activity associated with that. It is troubling that this issue is not taken more seriously.

Then, on the other side, I was proud of the Conservative private member's bill to deal with recidivism, and further significant Conservative pressure to deal with mental health challenges to ensure that we are addressing the full context here. Certainly victims, including victims of opioid addictions, need to be stood up for, and this bill fails miserably at that.

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

11:30 a.m.

Bloc

Louise Chabot Bloc Thérèse-De Blainville, QC

Madam Speaker, the Harper Conservatives did bring in a significant number of tough-on-crime measures. I am trying to understand what this bill is all about.

I have a question for you that is strictly about opioids. You talked about victims, but there are also people who use opioids who need to be protected.

Would you support the decriminalization of the possession of substances like opioids?

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

11:35 a.m.

NDP

The Assistant Deputy Speaker NDP Carol Hughes

I would remind the member to address her questions through the Chair and not to the member directly.

The hon. member for Battle River—Crowfoot.

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

11:35 a.m.

Conservative

Damien Kurek Conservative Battle River—Crowfoot, AB

Madam Speaker, the simple answer is no. I do not agree with the decriminalization of drugs. However, it is a misconception that this bill would somehow fix the problem of individuals who would be charged with simple possession. That is not what this bill addresses. It addresses the serious offences of those who are trafficking, smuggling and involved in the gang activity that leads to these victims on our streets. We have to have a plan to address opioid addiction in this country.

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

11:35 a.m.

Liberal

Kody Blois Liberal Kings—Hants, NS

Madam Speaker, I will be splitting my time this morning with my hon. colleague from Humber River—Black Creek.

This is the first time that I have had the chance to speak in the House since the passing of Prince Philip, the Duke of Edinburgh and the royal consort. I want to go on record to recognize his significant achievements to public life and the Commonwealth. I know other parliamentarians have spoken to this, but I want to add my voice.

We are here today to talk about Bill C-22, which is about repealing mandatory minimum sentences that had been established under the previous Harper government. For Canadians who are listening in today on this debate for the first time and so they can understand the intent of the legislation, essentially there are three elements underpinning what this legislation is about. It is about repealing mandatory minimum penalties for certain offences, it is about allowing the judiciary to use greater discretion in terms of conditional sentence orders and it would also require police and prosecutors to examine whether it is appropriate to treat simple drug possession as more of a health issue as opposed to a justice issue.

I am the member of Parliament for Kings—Hants, in which there are three indigenous communities. I often say—

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

11:35 a.m.

NDP

The Assistant Deputy Speaker NDP Carol Hughes

I am sorry to interrupt. There is a point of order by the hon. member for Battle River—Crowfoot.

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11:35 a.m.

Conservative

Damien Kurek Conservative Battle River—Crowfoot, AB

Madam Speaker, I am sure my friend would not want to deliberately mislead the House. Many of the changes being made to this bill are not Harper changes. They date back to—

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11:35 a.m.

NDP

The Assistant Deputy Speaker NDP Carol Hughes

That is a point of debate and not a point of order.

The hon. member for Kings—Hants.

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11:35 a.m.

Liberal

Kody Blois Liberal Kings—Hants, NS

Madam Speaker, as I mentioned, there are three indigenous communities in my riding of Kings—Hants. There is also a sizable African-Nova Scotian population as well. When we look at the statistics across Canada, they are jarring, to say the least. Five per cent of the Canadian population is composed of indigenous adults, yet they account for 30% of the incarcerated population. Indigenous women account for 42% of women incarcerated in Canada. Black Canadians represent about 3% of the Canadian population, but in prisons represent 7.2%.

This type of thinking of getting rid of mandatory minimums and letting the judiciary have the discretion on sentencing for some of these offences is the type of thinking that will resonate in the communities of Kings—Hants, particularly in the marginalized communities.

We do not have to think back far to the death of George Floyd and the global movement it drove, which is something that resonated in my own riding of Kings—Hants. There were Black Lives Matter movements in Kings County and Windsor. I had the opportunity to speak with the African-Nova Scotian community directly, and we have been working on a series of local initiatives since last summer.

I want to thank groups like the Valley African Nova Scotian Development Association, VANSDA, for the work it does, as well as Robert Ffrench. There is a whole host of individuals who are doing great work on the ground in my community, and I would like to just take a moment to recognize their contributions.

When I look at this legislation, it really comes down to two underlying principles that are important. One is the recognition to try to alleviate systemic barriers and systemic issues that put individuals, whether they are in marginalized communities or not, behind bars for longer when the circumstances of the case may not necessarily warrant a mandatory minimum penalty. It goes back to allowing the judiciary, the men and women we appoint, to hear the circumstances of each case and have the discretion.

I asked my hon. colleague before I had the floor whether he saw this as being our role as parliamentarians when the particular circumstances of a case and the sentencing could be taken five, six or seven years down the line. As parliamentarians, we do not have all the facts. As I mentioned, I was a lawyer before I became a parliamentarian. I did not practise criminal law, but I have been involved in civil litigation and other matters and can say not all circumstances of cases are treated equally in the sense that each case is uniquely different. There might be some symmetry in a rare circumstance, but there is always a bit of nuance.

At the end of the day, when we look at sentencing in our courts, to me, as a parliamentarian, I do not think it is my job to sit here six years down the line from when a case could actually come before the courts and say I know what is best when it comes to sentencing. We have common law in this country. We have common-law principles in terms of sentencing. We have adopted Gladue principles through the Supreme Court of Canada.

There are both aggravating factors, where an individual should be perhaps incarcerated for a longer period of time because of the nature and circumstances of the particular offence, and there are sometimes mitigating factors, which really warrant a different treatment of the sentencing. That is what the core of this type of legislation is getting at.

I guess what I would compare it to is Her Majesty's loyal opposition. I do not want to stereotype all parliamentarians, but there is generally a great respect for the independence of the judiciary. We have seen that with some of the legislation that have gone through, where members would get up and talk about this, and yet when we are talking about giving the independence to the judiciary to be able to make decisions around sentencing, we have this huge push-back.

I hear the “soft on crime” and the traditional slogans that come up any time this discussion happens, but really this is about allowing the judges to be able to assess the situation and be able to make a proper sentencing. Yes, it is our job as parliamentarians to help craft what offences are under the Criminal Code, but let us leave the sentencing to the common law and to the individuals who are actually involved with hearing the circumstance of the case.

I also want to take this opportunity to talk about the third element and marginalized communities. We are talking about repealing certain mandatory minimums, but we are also talking about small drug offences and treating those more as a health issue as opposed to a justice issue. The member before me talked about trafficking, large amounts of drug abuse and kind of preying on victims, but this is really targeted at someone who might have simple possession, and we do not necessarily want to put them in prison for a mandatory period of time if the circumstances warrant that it is not necessarily an appropriate way to go about this. I think that a lot of members in this House understand this.

At the end of the day, the bill would allow the discretion for the men and women who hear the case and for the prosecution and police to be able to look at this from a certain angle to try to get better outcomes. It is not to necessarily put individuals into a federal penitentiary and hope that would alleviate the issues that these individuals could be repeat offenders. This is another element. Maybe there are different ways we could treat individuals to try to resolve it, whether it be mental issues or other challenges. This is the type of thinking that I support. As I mentioned, I have worked in law before, and I think, across the board, that this is the type of direction we should be going.

I also want to speak to the piece around the conditional sentence orders. Again, this is giving discretion to the judiciary to make decisions. However, my time is quickly coming to a close, and so I will stop there and look forward to taking questions from my hon. colleagues.

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

11:45 a.m.

Conservative

Warren Steinley Conservative Regina—Lewvan, SK

Madam Speaker, I sit on the agriculture committee with the member for Kings—Hants and we enjoy our debates.

The member talked about the independence of the judiciary and how much we need to respect that. Well, I would ask him to answer a question about his leader, the Prime Minister, who really did not have that respect during the SNC-Lavalin case. In fact, he actually kicked out the first indigenous woman from being the attorney general. So, if the member wants us to have respect for the judiciary, which we all do on the Conservative side, why would he not start with his own side and have a conversation with his Prime Minister so that they respect the independence of the judiciary?

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11:45 a.m.

Liberal

Kody Blois Liberal Kings—Hants, NS

Madam Speaker, it is always great to see my colleague across the way, and we do enjoy a great relationship on the agriculture committee.

The member opposite is bringing up issues from far in the past as opposed to focusing on the issue at hand around the servicing of Canadians who could benefit from this type of aspect.

For the record, I will say that I think the bright public policy aspect around SNC-Lavalin was the deferred prosecution agreement. The member opposite, for someone who certainly talks about protecting jobs and Canadian interests, does not seem to really want to support that right now.

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11:45 a.m.

NDP

Heather McPherson NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB

Madam Speaker, I would like to thank the member for his intervention today. It was very interesting.

While I enjoy listening to members of the Liberal government talk about necessary, progressive steps to decriminalize drug possession, I am always dismayed by the lack of bravery and commitment to go far enough. These half-measures are, of course, not sufficient.

Earlier today, we did hear from the member for Beaches—East York who said that he believed that full decriminalization was best but that he was prevented by politics.

I would like to ask the member: When will this government listen to the calls from provincial governments, mayors, health care providers, frontline service providers, police and public health officials and take action to fully decriminalize personal possession?