Debates of June 10th, 2022

Retirement Income

[Gerald Soroka, Conservative, Yellowhead, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to start off by saying that I am pleased and honoured to speak in the House to Motion No. 45, brought forward by the member for Etobicoke North.

I will say right from the start that I am not opposed to the motion. I am fine with doing the study and everything, but I am concerned about whether we need to do another study. I mean, there has been enough information and there have been enough studies brought forward in the past. One of the concerns I have is that everyone talks about, “Well, maybe this study needs to be updated,” or, “Maybe this one is a little too far out of date,” but I still think there is enough information.

I will begin with some background and history as to my past. Before I was an MP, I was mayor of Yellowhead County. At that time, I was also part of an organization called the Evergreens Foundation, which was the seniors housing situation in our riding. Not only was I on the board, but I was also the chair of the board, which gave me the opportunity to understand a lot more about seniors' issues. As I am also getting older, it is great to be aware of what is potentially going to happen to me in the future.

At the Evergreens Foundation we were in charge of housing, and that ranged from homes to apartments and right to seniors lodges. There was a lot of information that we had to take in, and a lot of issues in trying to get seniors into our housing areas. There was never this “based on income” requirement in order to be allowed in the housing market, but definitely 30 points were given based on one's income score. If one had too high a level of income, then one was less eligible to get in. Unfortunately, that was not the case for most people. Most had no problem accessing the subsidized part of our housing operation.

However, when I went to conferences, I was quite astounded to learn from one of the speakers about the future plans, or lack thereof, that Canadians had for retirement. The speaker talked about how probably about 25% of Canadians really planned for their future. They knew that the Canada pension was not going to be enough and that they had to supplement it, and they were very secure in making sure that they had no problems financially.

Unfortunately, the next 25% of people knew that they probably would not get enough money from the Canada pension and so they really should start saving, but they also did not put enough money aside.

It gets scarier as we keep going through the numbers. The next 25% believed that they probably should put money aside, but maybe the Canada pension would be enough to take care of them and so they really just sort of thought, “We'll just deal with it.”

Unfortunately, the last 25% of Canadians did not even have a clue that they needed to save for their retirement. They just assumed that the Canada pension was going to be enough and that the government was there to take care of all their concerns.

When we look at these numbers, 75% of Canadians are not able to secure their future and have not put enough money aside or did not even know they had to put enough money aside for retirement, so this is where I kind of question a study. The speaker I am talking about spoke at this conference over five years ago, so it has been an issue for many years already that Canadians do not think they need to have a retirement plan. They figure that the government is more than willing to take care of them. One of my concerns with the motion is this: After all these years we have known that Canadians have not saved enough money, I question why we need another study when there is more than enough information out there.

Now, not only is that a problem I had with that committee, but I started to understand a lot more about how Canadians lived their lives, because of some of those statistics as well as being on the board of Evergreens.

I will change the names and areas so that I do not identify anybody in my riding, but I have dealt with Mary from Thorsby many times in the past. Finances have been a big issue for most of her life, so putting money aside was never an issue for her, because she just never had excess money to put aside. However, every time something came up, she would ask, “Gerald, is there more availability for programs or some other grant or something for housing? Are there things I can access?” Unfortunately, I was never able to give her any real help.

However, when COVID hit, Mary was still working part-time, and she was in her eighties at the time. The organization she was with applied for COVID funding for her, and she was able to get that COVID funding.

The problem was that she did not put any money aside for the taxes, so she ended up paying, and I am well aware we have kind of changed direction on that, so that is not too bad for her. However, her problem still was that she did not get the guaranteed income supplement. She was losing over $600 a month. When she talked about her Canada pension and all of the bills that she had, and she is about $450 in the hole every month. She is not able to make ends meet.

I talked to Mary and told her that I did not want to bring it up, but I was thinking her only option would maybe be a reverse guaranteed mortgage. That is where the government or an agency assumes the mortgage on her farm and give her the money she needs. It basically takes the inheritance away from the family members. She told me that she just could not do that.

I thought that it was more about the personal strength of her own farm and knowing that she would have to, in a way, sell the farm back, but that is not what the issue was. The issue was that her son had gotten into some financial trouble a couple years ago and she ended up mortgaging her farm to help her son out. There was no way she could even get this guaranteed basic income from her home with a reverse mortgage situation.

This lady is in a terrible situation because no matter where one thought there could be money coming from, she was not able to access it. That was the devastating part. Through no fault of her own, but for the love of her son, she actually tried to make it better for her family, which ended up hurting her. Now we have this woman who is in her 80s, with no real financial opportunities, who did not plan properly in her life, and I feel for her, but at the same time, there are not any government programs in there.

My concern with this program and doing this study is the fact that it is going to take another year. That is fine, but it will then also take how many more months or another year to implement any of the recommendations put forward. We are probably looking at, at least, a minimum of two years. What do we tell Mary for the next two years, who does not have the money to help her get through and cope with everything she has been dealing with?

It is very devastating for me to have say, “Jeez, Mary, I am sorry. I am not able to help.”

Unfortunately, Mary's is just one of the many stories I have heard from seniors living across my riding. I think some of them have thought just like I said. The last 25% believe that the Canada pension was going to be enough, and it never was enough. It was always supposed to be supplemented by some personal savings account.

What a lot of farmers have done is to sell their farms as part of their retirement package and then live off the interest, for whatever time that amounted to. That is great for some people, but not everybody is in that situation. There are many seniors who have rented their whole life, rented right in towns and cities, wherever they may be, and they just never had that asset to sell. Therefore, that becomes a problem when the future comes and they do not have that financial security.

My concern with this motion is the fact that we are well aware of the pitfalls that Canadians have put themselves in. We are well aware of all of the studies that have been done in the past, yet this is not addressing the current needs today.

Unfortunately, it is going to take two more years, probably, before this goes through, so I am really hoping that everyone does support this. I am really hoping that we are able to get Canadians back to the financial security and quality of life seniors deserve in their final days, because it is never good that anyone who has given all their time to Canada, to the community, is having that taken away from them.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I am thankful for the opportunity to rise today to discuss such an important issue. I am disappointed, to be frank, that my colleague across the floor did not support my colleague's amendment to add a much-needed guaranteed livable basic income to this motion.

We know seniors are asking for real solutions. Across Canada, more and more seniors are struggling to make ends meet. Despite a lifetime of hard work and contributions to our communities, seniors are unsure how they are going to pay for their groceries, keep a roof over their head and pay their bills. Is this the example we wish to show our children? It is shameful. Seniors deserve to retire with dignity.

In my riding of Nanaimo—Ladysmith, seniors represent almost a quarter of our population. Too many seniors in our communities are struggling to make ends meet. In Nanaimo, for example, the average cost of a two-bedroom apartment has more than doubled over the last six years. An average one-bedroom rental now costs over $1,500 a month. For seniors living on a fixed income, these costs mean cuts elsewhere, such as in groceries or their life-saving medications.

Seniors cannot wait for relief. Why do we keep talking about study after study when we know seniors need action now? Seniors contacting my office have been clear: They want to be treated with dignity and be able to afford to get by. That is why I am so glad that my NDP colleague put forward this amendment for a guaranteed livable basic income so that seniors can be treated with the respect they deserve. I hope that this conversation and this solution continue after this debate today.

Seniors with British citizenship in Nanaimo—Ladysmith and across Canada, as another example, are losing their hard-earned money every month. This is the result of their U.K. pensions being frozen because they live in Canada. If they still lived in the U.K. or almost anywhere else in the world, these pensions would be indexed and would continue to increase year after year, but because Canada never reached an agreement with the U.K., these pensions have been frozen.

Pat, a well-loved and respected 91-year-old constituent in Nanaimo—Ladysmith, continues to contribute in our communities in so many ways. Pat grew up in New Malden, U.K. She left school and went to work at 16 years of age, paying into the U.K. pension plan for two decades before coming to Canada. She began drawing her pension at retirement, as one would expect, and has been receiving the same amount every month for 30 years, which is about 119 pounds or $190 Canadian per month. As a result, Pat lives well below the poverty line and struggles to make ends meet.

I want to acknowledge all those advocating to the government to finally do better for the 127,000 and counting British pensioners in Canada, such as Ian Andexser, the president of the Canadian Alliance of British Pensioners and a constituent in my riding of Nanaimo—Ladysmith.

This is not a new problem. Ian and many others have been advocating a change for decades. Most recently, he called the Minister of International Trade, Export Promotion, Small Business and Economic Development to ensure that these frozen pensions are part of Canada's ongoing trade talks with the United Kingdom. While the government chooses inaction on this issue, contributing members of our communities are the ones left to suffer. This is not good enough.

As I conclude my remarks today, I want to thank the member opposite again for making sure that the struggles seniors are facing are recognized and discussed in this chamber. While I agree that the motion has the best of intentions, I want to stress that seniors who are losing their homes or skipping meals because they cannot afford their groceries should not have to wait for another study on this issue.

We know that the government can and should do more to be there for seniors. I really hope that the government reconsiders the NDP amendment to add the guaranteed livable basic income and ensure that we are finding real solutions so that every senior in Canada is able to live with dignity.

Another issue that is coming forward in my riding of Nanaimo—Ladysmith is around supporting seniors during the pandemic. When the pandemic hit, many seniors believed that their support system from the government would be there for them. The pandemic revealed that this was not the case, unfortunately.

One example of this occurred when seniors who relied upon the guaranteed income supplement, and rightfully accessed CERB during the pandemic, saw their benefits clawed back the next year. Despite seniors and advocates raising this concern for months, and the NDP pushing the government to do better, the government sat on its hands for months before addressing this problem. While I am glad to see that the government has moved forward to begin addressing the problem, it should never have come to this.

As members can see, there are endless tangible items that are being brought forward by seniors to my office. Seniors are asking us to make sure that we are putting in place solutions that afford them the dignity and respect that they deserve. I am apprehensive and concerned that we continue to implement study after study and we are not seeing that action necessary for seniors be put into place. I hope that we start seeing those actions put into place, and I thank the member again for the motion.

[Marty Morantz, Conservative, Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB]

Mr. Speaker, I am honoured to rise today to speak to Motion No. 45, brought forward by my colleague from Etobicoke North. The motion asks for the following:

That:

(a) the House recognize that (i) seniors deserve a dignified retirement free from financial worry, (ii) many seniors are worried about their retirement savings running out, (iii) many seniors are concerned about being able to live independently in their own homes; and

(b) in the opinion of the House, the government should undertake a study examining population aging, longevity, interest rates, and registered retirement income funds, and report its findings and recommendations to the House within 12 months of the adoption of this motion.

My riding of Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley in Manitoba is home to many seniors. Seniors helped build this country and our communities. I have always said that they need to be treated with the respect they are due for building our communities while raising their families. We all stand on their shoulders in this place.

I stay in touch with many seniors I represent, because I value their experience and their wisdom. Not a day goes by that I do not receive an important email or phone call from seniors I represent who are concerned about their finances. Many are on fixed incomes from their retirement pensions. They are worried about rampant inflation, which has been directly caused by the massive, out-of-control quantitative easing program instituted by the Bank of Canada.

Even the Bank of Canada governor, Tiff Macklem, acknowledged that he and his lieutenants misjudged the strength of inflation at the start of the year, and pledged to act “as forcefully as needed” to make up for the mistake. During testimony at the Senate banking committee on April 27, he said that we are coming “out of the deepest recession we've ever had, but...we got a lot of things right and we got some things wrong, and we are adjusting.” Inflation eats away at pension income because price inflation makes everything more expensive. It erodes the basic fixed income of every senior. The bank's main responsibility was to keep inflation at 2%, but now inflation is at almost 7% because of the bank's mismanagement of this issue, as admitted by the governor.

I note that the motion is also concerned about interest rates. As a result of the bank's mismanagement of inflation, it has been forced to raise interest rates. The bank now uses higher interest rates as a tool to curb inflation. Higher interest rates are great if people have savings, but if they are still paying a mortgage or a car loan, which many seniors do, this just compounds the problem. Any discussion of this matter should in fact include a discussion of how to protect seniors against inflation eroding their incomes. In my view, this motion is very timely. Seniors on fixed incomes have been hurt by the bank's mistakes and now have to make difficult decisions around what foods they can afford, or whether they can afford to visit their grandchildren or buy them presents.

On top of this, to add insult to injury, instead of providing an adequate income for Canadian seniors, by any identifiable metric the government has done just the opposite. It promised to help seniors and Canadians suffering during the deadliest pandemic the globe has seen in a century. In order to facilitate this, the government implemented COVID-related financial relief. Despite warnings from its own ministerial officials, the government sat on its laurels and allowed this benefit, which was taxable, to decimate tens of thousands of vulnerable, low-income seniors this past year by clawing back their GIS. Only after months of advocacy by my Conservative colleagues did the Minister of Seniors finally take action to fix her government's mistake by introducing Bill C-12 and issuing a one-time payment to affected seniors. Better late than never, as they say.

While I am happy to support the motion, I just cannot help but feel that this will be just another study collecting dust on the shelf in the minister's office. The fact of the matter is that these issues have already been studied many times. Seniors do not want or need another study. They want action now, not a year from now or after yet another study. Seniors want action right now, not 12 months from now or three or four years from now. We have a number of studies that are either done or in the process of being done, and recommendations to follow up on. The HUMA committee is currently studying the effects of COVID-19 on seniors. This study covers much of the same ground as what this motion calls for. There will be a large overlap between the information the committee has already gathered and what the member's motion hopes to achieve.

Also, back in 2018, a motion moved by the member for Nickel Belt, Motion No. 106, seconded by many House caucus colleagues, asked the Standing Committee on Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities to study and report back to the House on important issues such as increasing income security for vulnerable seniors and ensuring quality of life and equality for all seniors via the development of a national seniors strategy, among other things. Seniors are still waiting for that national strategy four years later.

The result of the committee's work was a 142-page report entitled “Advancing Inclusion and Quality of Life for Seniors”, which made 29 recommendations. Many of these recommendations speak directly to the motion we are debating here today, and the government has unsurprisingly failed to act on many of them.

There is not time to review every recommendation in the 10 minutes I am allotted, but one of the areas my hon. friend mentioned in her motion is interest rates and registered retirement income funds. As I said, we on this side agree that affordability for seniors was an issue before COVID and before the recent record increase in inflation and the cost of living under the government's watch. This was caused largely by the mistakes of the Bank of Canada, which it has admitted to.

The very first recommendation of the 2018 report reads, “That Employment and Social Development Canada work with Finance Canada and the Canada Revenue Agency to review and strengthen existing federal income support programs for vulnerable seniors to ensure they provide adequate income.” Four long and difficult years later, seniors know that this recommendation, along with the national strategy, has been ignored.

In addition to the GIS clawback I mentioned earlier in July of last year, the then minister of seniors announced a one-time payment of $500 to seniors aged 75 and over, stating, “Canadian seniors can always count on us to listen, understand their needs and work hard to deliver for them.” However, apparently, the government was unaware that one particularly important need for seniors, especially those on benefits, is to receive timely and accurate tax information.

Once again, the government's incompetence resulted in over 90,000 Canadian seniors receiving the wrong tax information, jeopardizing their ability to file their taxes on time. They now run the risk of once again having their benefits cut off through no fault of their own. That is why our party advocated for the government to extend the deadline for seniors filing their taxes so there would remain zero risk of vulnerable seniors having their benefits taken from them by the government once again.

When it comes to seniors, the government is all talk but little action. Seniors cannot afford to be an afterthought when it is implementing policies and programs designed to help them. We must work together as a House to deliver results. That is why I will be voting in favour of my hon. colleague's motion. I look forward to seeing the findings implemented efficiently, effectively, speedily, and most importantly, not another four years down the road.

[Kirsty Duncan, Liberal, Etobicoke North, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to begin by thanking colleagues for their support of my very focused Motion M-45 to start a national conversation around registered retirement income funds, or RRIFs. Very specifically, Motion M-45 asks the government to undertake a study examining population aging, longevity, interest rates and registered retirement income funds, and to report its findings and recommendations to the House within 12 months. Studies lead to action.

Today, when Canadians turn 71, they must convert their registered retirement savings plans, or RRSPs, to registered retirement income funds, or RRIFs, and begin making mandatory withdrawals at a set rate. Seniors are concerned that the current rates do not reflect today's realities, that life expectancy is longer and retirement is longer than when RRIFs were created, and that people risk outliving their savings.

I have done a lot of listening to seniors in Etobicoke North and right across the country. What they have told me is that they were forced to take out money from their RRIFs when they did not need the money, when they were not sick, when they had not lost a partner or when they did not need care. However, when they really needed the funds, they had been depleted through mandatory withdrawals. In some cases, they were gone altogether. They said that while their costs were always increasing, their RRIFs were forever decreasing.

Canadians are facing a perfect storm when it comes to long-term financial retirement security. Workplace pensions are becoming less common, retirement costs are increasing, and Canadians are living longer than ever before. Increased longevity and longer retirements mean that mandated RRIF withdrawals put people in a position to outlive their savings. Canadians know that the rules around RRIFs have not kept pace with the times, and they expect parliamentarians to listen, to have a conversation and to act.

Solutions do exist, whether increasing the mandatory withdrawal age, reducing the rate of withdrawal set for each age, doing a combination of these or eliminating mandatory withdrawals. These are just a few options, and the study could identify more. Rules concerning RRIFs have changed before, and they can change again. After RRIFs were first introduced, amendments were made in 1986, 1992, 2015 and most recently in 2020.

Canadians and organizations such as CanAge, CARP, the C.D. Howe Institute, the Investment Industry Association of Canada and the National Association of Federal Retirees have been asking for changes to RRIFs.

With this motion, we have an opportunity to do something for those who have given us so very much. Canada's seniors contribute to our communities, country and society in countless ways. They have helped shape our country, and they have raised, mentored and invested in generations of Canadians. They are our parents, grandparents, friends, neighbours, workers and volunteers, and they matter. We must do more than just thank them for everything they have done for us and our country. After all, they laid the foundation for a better future for all of us. One of the best measures of a country is how it treats its older citizens and the most vulnerable. Seniors worked hard. They played by the rules, and they deserve a dignified and secure retirement free from financial worry.

I know that every member in the House cares about seniors and ensuring they have a dignified retirement. We have an opportunity to do something really important and impactful. We can come together to start a much-needed conversation, encourage the government to gather evidence and come forward with recommendations to improve RRIFs for Canadian seniors. Canadians want this study, and they want action.

[The Deputy Speaker, Conservative, Chris d'Entremont]

The question is on the motion.

If a member of a recognized party present in the House wishes to request a recorded division or that the motion be adopted on division, I would invite them to rise and indicate it to the Chair.

The hon. member for Lac-Saint-Louis.

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to request a recorded division.

[The Deputy Speaker, Conservative, Chris d'Entremont]

Pursuant to order made November 25, 2021, the division stands deferred until Wednesday, June 15, at the expiry of the time provided for Oral Questions.

It being 2:30 p.m., the House stands adjourned until next Monday at 11 a.m. pursuant to Standing Order 24(1).

(The House adjourned at 2:30 p.m.)