Debates of Feb. 9th, 2023

Opposition Motion—Use of the Notwithstanding Clause

[Rachel Bendayan, Liberal, Outremont, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I am not sure that the comment of my colleague is relevant to the debate of today, but allow me to say that provincial premiers across the country make their own decisions about when to invoke the notwithstanding clause. It certainly is up to us in this chamber to ensure the protection of the rights and freedoms of Canadians. I find it surprising that the Conservative Party does not appear concerned with the freedoms of Canadians. It is something about which the government is concerned.

[Yves Perron, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

Mr. Speaker, does my colleague not think that using the notwithstanding clause pre-emptively will save many years of unnecessary litigation to reach the same conclusion further down the road? Would she not agree that our position is actually quite reasonable?

What we are asking Parliament to do is simple. We are asking it to at least respect what is set out in the contract that it shoved down our throats in 1982.

[Rachel Bendayan, Liberal, Outremont, QC]

Mr. Speaker, as I have said many times, of course the notwithstanding clause can be used, but when it is used pre-emptively, that does not allow the courts and legislators to have the dialogue that is necessary in a free and democratic society.

My colleague appears to be defending clauses in the Constitution while at the same time challenging its legitimacy. He needs to take a position. Either he supports the Constitution or he does not.

The Bloc Québécois cannot have it both ways.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Mr. Speaker, this is an important discussion, because either we have a charter that protects the rights of citizens or we do not. What we have seen is the willingness of provincial governments to pre-emptively use the notwithstanding clause to target workers and religious minorities and to justify unconstitutional laws, which is deeply concerning. That strips the fundamental rights of citizens and their ability to challenge the provincial governments when they abuse those rights.

In watching the outrageous use of this clause, it concerns me that the federal government has sat on the sidelines and told citizens to defend themselves. Is the federal government going to stand up for the principle of the charter or is the charter just some paper document that can be used, annulled or ignored depending on whatever government is in power in the provinces?

[Rachel Bendayan, Liberal, Outremont, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I share my colleague's concern with the rise in provinces across the country pre-emptively using the notwithstanding clause. To his question, it has been successive Liberal governments over the years that have stood up for our charter, that have stood for Canadians' rights and freedoms, and we will continue to do that.

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to start by talking about this big, beautiful country we call Canada, a country blessed with a diverse abundance of riches that make us the envy of the world.

Take hydroelectricity from Quebec, for example. It not only meets our energy needs and heats our homes, but it also supplies energy to our neighbours in Ontario and New York State, in the U.S. We also grow wheat and other crops that help feed our planet. We even produce oil that is used to manufacture medical supplies and that continues to heat our homes during our transition to a cleaner, greener economy. Lastly, our waterways nourish our ecosystems and serve as transportation routes for our resources and our intermediate and finished products headed for markets in North America and overseas.

However, a country's real strength lies in its citizens' values. Here in Canada, Canadians, including Quebeckers, value community spirit and co-operation. They also espouse democratic values. These values translate to, among other things, a profound attachment to the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms and the Canadian Constitution. Whether in British Columbia, Prince Edward Island, Quebec or Ontario, Canadians across the country are tenacious about asserting their rights and freedoms, regardless of what governments may do from time to time.

Consider, for example, the late Nicole Gladu, who invoked the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms and the Canadian Constitution to assert her right to medical assistance in dying. I must point out that it was a Quebec court that granted her that right under the charter. I believe that we should thank and honour Pierre Elliott Trudeau for his decision to devote his political life to patriating the Constitution and adding the charter, which is one of the most modern laws in the world, in that it recognizes community interests.

The charter also includes a notwithstanding clause. It should be noted that this clause cannot be used to violate the rights of official language minorities. I want to stress that point because many people often forget that this notwithstanding clause cannot violate every right, because some are guaranteed by the charter and the Constitution Act, 1982.

Since being elected, and even before that, I have never been in favour of invoking the notwithstanding clause, which, by the way, Parliament can do under the Constitution. People seem to forget that. This clause exists and it has a clear objective, namely to allow the federal government or a provincial government to take the time to consider and adjust to a court decision that would invalidate one of its laws in whole or in part. Its application is time-limited, so it is not a blank cheque nor open season. In fact, the use of this notwithstanding clause has to be renewed every five years.

There are several aspects of this clause that we could view as democratic. For example, it is not quite the final word, because the clause must be re-invoked every five years. It allows a legislature to temporarily derogate from a court decision.

Obviously, this matter is open to debate, but, in my opinion, the notwithstanding clause was intended to allow courts to render judgments and provide opinions based on our legal system's judicial traditions. Moreover, the notwithstanding clause was intended to create a requirement to have an open political debate every five years on the merits of using the notwithstanding clause.

In both of the cases that are before the court right now, namely Bills 96 and 21, the Legault government in Quebec used the clause pre-emptively. This pulled the rug right out from under the court. In fact, the court's hands are tied. It cannot do anything. We know that, in the case of Bill 21, the Superior Court of Quebec discussed some aspects of the bill that impede certain rights. However, it admitted that it could not do anything because of the notwithstanding clause.

What is problematic about the pre-emptive use of the notwithstanding clause is that not only are the court's hands tied, but we cannot have a full debate on the use of the clause, a debate in a legislative assembly in front of the cameras, a debate whose every detail could followed by our media. I find that extremely problematic, and it adds an anti-democratic element to a provision that is undeniably democratic and perfectly legal.

When governments use this provision pre‑emptively, whether it is New Brunswick, Ontario, Quebec or any other province, one question comes to mind: What are those governments afraid of? Are they afraid of their legal experts, their courts or their citizens? Are they afraid that their citizens might watch the debate on a measure that will take away their rights and that they will change their minds about the measure that the government has put in place with its law? Are these governments afraid of both the lawyers and the public?

I will stop there, and I am ready to answer questions.

[John Brassard, Conservative, Barrie—Innisfil, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I listened intently to the hon. member's speech this morning. One of the things he talked about early on is the need for energy. What we have seen with the government is an attack on the natural resource sector and the energy sector. We saw the German chancellor and the Japanese prime minister come to Canada on bended knees seeking LNG, yet the Prime Minister just shooed them away like they were nothing. There is a real demand in this world for clean Canadian energy.

Yes, I understand there is a transition going on and we are a long way from there, but why would the Prime Minister simply toss his hand at this other prime minister and chancellor when they came here demanding clean Canadian energy?

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I am a bit mystified. We are talking about a very solemn issue, the rights and freedoms of Canadians, and how those rights and freedoms can be maintained within a democratic framework, which includes the potential use of the notwithstanding clause, yet the member is bringing in a discussion about economic interests. I do not see the relevance.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I thank our colleague for his speech. It is interesting to hear our Liberal colleagues talk about how they see the notwithstanding clause and what they think of it, but it is kind of pointless because the Supreme Court has already ruled on the matter a number of times, including in Ford in 1988, when it said the National Assembly has complete freedom to put the notwithstanding clause in any law it passes if it wants to. It can do so pre-emptively without waiting for a court to overturn the law first.

Supreme Court decisions always run a bit long, so I will leave it at those two statements in the 1988 Supreme Court ruling in Ford.

Does my colleague think his opinion and his government's opinion take precedence over a Supreme Court decision? Could we not just go with what the highest court in the land has already decided?

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

Mr. Speaker, that is a good question, and I appreciate it. However, we know that the court's decisions evolve over time, depending on the circumstances and how society has changed.

Of course, I respect the Supreme Court's decisions. As I said in my speech, I have never supported the use of the notwithstanding clause by this Parliament. I respect the views of the court, but I would like to hear more from my colleague on this matter.

[Rachel Bendayan, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Tourism and Associate Minister of Finance]

Mr. Speaker, from what I understand, my colleague from Lac-Saint-Louis is telling us that the notwithstanding clause is legal, that we are aware that it can be used, but that the pre-emptive use of the notwithstanding clause is problematic.

I would like my colleague to tell us about the comments and concerns he is hearing from his constituents in Lac-Saint-Louis so that we can justify our comments today on the Bloc Québécois motion.

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I want to thank my hon. colleague for her question. I think it basically goes without saying that many of my constituents are very concerned about what seems to be an increasingly common use of this provision as a preventive measure. It is indeed a issue of concern in my riding.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I will be sharing my time with the member for Perth—Wellington.

After eight years of the Prime Minister's dismal governance, he is now trying to turn attention away from his record, the cost of living crisis of his own making, the highest spikes in inflation in 40 years and the doubling of the price of rent and the cost of mortgages. He wants to turn Canadians' attention away from the record use of food banks, the record credit card debt and the fact that he tripled the carbon tax. He wants Canadians to forget that violent crimes have increased by 32%, that gang-related homicides have increased by 92%, that he has close ties to lobbyists who cost a fortune and that he has violated ethics rules.

The Prime Minister is trying once again to sow division in Canada. He is also trying to create a fake constitutional crisis. That is his latest attempt at dividing people and turning attention away from his failures.

The Bloc Québécois has no solutions for Quebec's real problems. On June 15, 1991, more than 30 years ago, in protest at the failure of the Meech Lake accord, Lucien Bouchard and a few other MPs founded the Bloc Québécois for a “temporary” period. Would I have been part of that group? Perhaps. However, the temporary Bloc Québécois of 1991 in no way resembles the Bloc Québécois of 2023. In any case, this was not what Lucien Bouchard intended at the time.

Today, we understand why the Bloc Québécois, like the Liberal Party of Canada, is completely out of touch with the reality of Quebec residents. It is using a full day, an opposition day, to talk about the Constitution, when there are so many other matters that are more important to Quebeckers.

As the Quebec lieutenant for the Conservative Party of Canada, I am trying to understand where the Bloc Québécois is going with its sometimes nebulous strategies. I want to make it clear that I am not criticizing the duly elected members, but rather the political party, which only cares about Quebec sovereignty and which, despite the rhetorical flourishes of its leader, has only one thing in mind: to bring down the Canadian federation.

This is why I question its strategic decision to devote a full day of debate to a subject that does not interest Quebeckers: the Canadian Constitution. Are there no topics that are more important to Quebeckers nowadays?

Despite its grand patriotic speeches, I sense that the Bloc Québécois is only focused on the Liberal government and its leftist agenda.

In the last eight years, we have seen a disoriented Bloc Québécois trying to score political points on various issues, but the people of Quebec expect their federal members of the House to work for them.

Article 070 of the main proposal prepared for the Bloc Québécois' upcoming national convention in May states: “We have the right to make mistakes, rethink our positions and change our minds”. That being the case, it should take this opportunity to course correct.

I can think of several examples of questionable choices made by the Bloc Québécois. Was it a good idea to support the Liberal government's Bill C-5, the infamous bill that allows street thugs to avoid prison time and sex offenders to serve their sentence at home instead of in jail where they belong? Was it a good idea to vote with the Liberal government in favour of Bill C-75, which allows the worst criminals to be released on bail when they are still a threat to society? Was it a good idea to punish hunters and indigenous people by supporting the Liberals' Bill C-21?

The Bloc has a very leftist agenda. It is the Liberal government' best ally. Are Quebeckers aware of that?

I hear members laughing. They can go ahead and laugh all they like, but facts are facts.

When Lucien Bouchard formed the Bloc Québécois, he clearly indicated that the party was meant to be a temporary measure. Over 30 years later, we are really seeing the wear and tear. Paragraph 018 of the Bloc Québécois's main position paper states, and I quote, “We, like the vast majority of Quebeckers, naturally think of the Quebec National Assembly when we talk about our government.” We see here a party that is still trying to find itself.

This political party claims to support the Quebec National Assembly and the Government of Quebec. However, during the most recent Quebec election campaign, the Bloc Québécois put all of its energy and resources into supporting the Parti Québécois and working against Coalition Avenir Québec, the party that won the election by a landslide and now forms the government. How can the Bloc claim to be an ally of the Quebec government when its objective is to get PQ members elected? Also, how can it be recognized as an effective voice for Quebec when it only managed to get three PQ members elected?

[An hon. member]

Not enough to play cards.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Mr. Speaker, that is very true.

At paragraph 018 of the Bloc's main position paper, we read the following: “We are opposed to censorship, cancel culture, intimidation, humiliation and people's courts that take over for the justice system, especially on social networks and under the cover of anonymity. We subscribe to open conversation and a society based on the rule of law.”

Bill C-11, An Act to amend the Broadcasting Act, will come back to the House of Commons after being amended by the Senate. Conservative senators did all they could to have the amendments adopted in order to prevent the CRTC, or the Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission, from having excessive control over algorithms because of an authoritarian government having decided to impose certain rules. With respect to Bill C‑11, Conservative senators did everything they could to prevent any government from exercising additional powers to control algorithms for any digital environment. Independent Liberal senators refused. The bill will be sent back to the House.

The Bloc Québécois supports Bill C-11. This bill does contain some positive aspects, but there are also some very harmful elements that we must absolutely oppose. Once again, I do not understand why the Bloc is supporting the Liberals on a bill that will result in more federal control over what Quebeckers can listen to and watch online. Is this consistent with the Bloc Québécois's original mission in 1991? I do not think so.

What we have here is a disconnected party, a leftist sovereignist party, walking hand in hand with the Liberals. It is unbelievable. The Conservatives, meanwhile, will work to fight inflation, repeal the carbon tax, end government waste and get rid of expensive consultants. The Liberals are creating division, but I have to agree with the Minister of Canadian Heritage who often says that the Bloc just wants to pick a fight.

Bloc Québécois members are very condescending. Unfortunately for them, they do not have a monopoly on the truth when it comes to Quebeckers. On our side, we want to work to enhance unity and respect among all Canadians, and that includes all Quebeckers.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons]

Mr. Speaker, we signed off on the Charter of Rights and Freedoms and brought the Canadian Constitution home back in 1982. I cannot imagine that, at the time, Pierre Elliott Trudeau and Jean Chrétien envisioned, for example, the Province of Ontario using the notwithstanding clause in a pre-emptive way to put limits on labour. As we go through the debate today, it is important just to recognize how, in recent years, some provinces seem to use the clause as a pre-emptive measure. I think a great majority of Canadians would disagree with that kind of usage. Could my colleague provide his thoughts on governments, whether national or provincial, taking advantage of that clause and using it in a pre-emptive way?

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague for his question.

Speaking of Pierre Elliott Trudeau, I think he would be a bit disappointed to see the way his son is running the country today. That said, when we talk about using the notwithstanding clause, be it pre-emptively or reactively, the fact remains that its usefulness is clear. I believe that when the Prime Minister spoke of using the notwithstanding clause, it was just another way to divide Canadians, derail debate and create a diversion so people would forget the current economic problems and the way he has been running the country for the past eight years.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I want to respond to the speech by my colleague from Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles. Let me just say I have no problem with him having an opinion about the subjects the Bloc Québécois brings up on its opposition days. His opinion is fine, but it does not actually matter.

Personally, I find the motion we put forward for debate today much more interesting than calling for the cancellation of the carbon tax seven times and being shot down every time. People have to listen too. There was something else about his speech that I found pretty special: the way he likened the Bloc to the Liberals.

The member talked about Bill C‑11, and that got my attention. The Bloc Québécois will always defend Quebec's interests above all else, regardless of who is with us or against us in doing so. In this case, our position is slightly more in line with that of the Liberals than that of the Conservatives, who are spewing all kinds of lies and misinformation to scare people about Bill C‑11. To be clear, the purpose of the bill is to defend Quebec's interests and Québécois and francophone culture in Quebec and Canada.

Today, we are talking about the notwithstanding clause. I would like to know if my colleague agrees that Quebec and the provinces should be the ones to decide whether or not to use the notwithstanding clause, which is one of their prerogatives.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Mr. Speaker, typically, I think our answers are supposed to be as long as the questions, which means that I am going to be making another speech given how long my colleague's question was.

First of all, I could respond to the member for Drummond that his question does not matter to me one bit either, but I will try to be a little more polite than he is on that front.

As I said in my speech, it is clear that the Bloc Québécois wants sovereignty; it is a left-wing party that supports the Parti Québécois. There is no denying it.

The Government of Quebec is not the Parti Québécois. The Bloc Québécois does not have the sole authority to speak for all Quebeckers. That is patently untrue. I am a Quebecker and proud of it, as are my Conservative colleagues and even several Liberal members. We are all Quebeckers and we all speak for Quebec.

When I make connections between Bloc Québécois positions, I look at their platform and I look at the state of affairs, such as bills C-5, C-75 and C-21. I could go on and name more, but I do not have enough time.

[Earl Dreeshen, Conservative, Red Deer—Mountain View, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I certainly enjoyed the speech from the hon. member. I remember going on international trade missions with the Bloc Québécois back in 2008. Their theory then was one of “I love Canada, I love Quebec; two great countries. Let's move forward”. At that point in time it was made up of the full spectrum from Marxist–Leninists to entrepreneurs.

Now those in the Bloc Québécois look at what is happening with the Liberal Party and how it has torn apart the fabric of this country. Their mantra is simply “See, Canada is broken. There's no way that we can be here”. That is why they want to be away from this country.

I know that the member had spoken about the spectrum of the Bloc Québécois over a number of years. Could he comment on this?

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Mr. Speaker, as I said in my speech, we lived through different times, a different era, with the Bloc Québécois; today, it is a different situation.

It is a very left-wing party that all too often supports the positions of the Liberal Party of Canada, which seeks to divide Canadians. The Bloc Québécois is taking advantage of this situation to separate Quebec from Canada.

The Conservative Party wants to work on unity despite our differences and to ensure that our country stays together. Yes, we are different. One of the first things I learned upon my election to the House in 2015 was how different life is for my colleagues from the other Canadian provinces. My thought as a Quebecker was that we have our reality, everyone else has theirs, so let us work together on unity.

[John Nater, Conservative, Perth—Wellington, ON]

Mr. Speaker, it is indeed an honour and privilege to rise in this House once again and contribute to the debate on today's opposition day motion.

I want to begin by talking a little bit about where we are right now in this country. Sadly, we see reports that 67% of Canadians feel that Canada is broken. The challenge is that after eight years of the Liberal government and Prime Minister, we are seeing motions like this, trying to stoke constitutional crises rather than bringing our country together. After eight years of the Liberal government's failures, we are left with the Liberals trying to stoke fears and divisions in this country rather than focusing on the issues that matter to Canadians, to the constituents of important communities such as Perth—Wellington, Oshawa or Cypress Hills—Grasslands. There, they are concerned about the rising cost of living with 40-year-high inflation.

When Conservatives have a chance in this House to debate, we raise these issues. Just this week we had an opportunity for all members to pronounce themselves on the carbon tax. What happened? Every other party voted no. They voted against giving Canadians a break. They voted against lowering the cost for Canadians of buying groceries, heating their homes and putting gas in their cars so they can take their kids to school and go to work each and every day, along with issues that we think are important, such as bail reform.

Sadly, in this country, in the past year we saw five brave police officers killed in the line of duty. Back in December we saw a police officer in Haldimand—Norfolk killed in the line of duty by an individual who was out on bail. All 13 provincial premiers have called on the government for bail reform. When this House had its opportunity to pronounce itself on bail reform on Monday on our Conservative opposition day—

[The Deputy Speaker, Conservative, Chris d'Entremont]

On a point of order, the hon. parliamentary secretary to the government House leader.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

Mr. Speaker, I am raising the issue of relevance. We are debating the notwithstanding clause, the Constitution and the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. There is all sorts of room in which the member could provide comment on that. I do not think the member has been even remotely relevant, unless he is suggesting that we use the notwithstanding clause for bail.

[The Deputy Speaker, Conservative, Chris d'Entremont]

On the same point of order, the hon. member for Barrie—Innisfil.