Debates of Feb. 9th, 2023

Democratic Institutions

[Kevin Vuong, Independent, Spadina—Fort York, ON]

Mr. Speaker, in The Hill Times of January 25, the government House leader stated that in the upcoming session, the government's third priority would be “protecting Canada’s economy and infrastructure from foreign interference and from the rise of despotism.” Presumably, the House leader includes protecting democracy and the Canada Elections Act among these goals.

Can the House leader inform this House how that top priority is coming along? Moreover, is the government now aware of any sitting MP or 2021 federal election candidate who was subjected to foreign interference or who was themselves involved in such illegal activities?

[Jennifer O'Connell, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, our government has taken the threat of foreign interference very seriously since the beginning when we took office. We heard just this week that a former ambassador to Stephen Harper was concerned about these things. However, if members note, none of the recommendations, nor the implementation of protecting our democracy and protecting our institutions, began until we took office.

We will continue to work with all parties and all parliamentarians to ensure that our institutions remain strong against the ongoing threat of foreign interference.

Presence in Gallery

[The Speaker, Liberal, Anthony Rota]

I draw the attention of hon. members to the presence in the gallery of finalists and winners of the 2022 Arctic Inspiration Prize. The finalists and winners from across Canada's Arctic are recognized for their innovative projects to improve the quality of life in their communities.

[Some hon. members]

Hear, hear!

Business of the House

[Andrew Scheer, Conservative, Regina—Qu'Appelle, SK]

Mr. Speaker, I rise today for the traditional Thursday question, where the government has the opportunity to inform the House as to the legislation that we will be debating in the days ahead.

I do note that, after the House leaders' meeting, there were some conversations about a very important piece of legislation, Bill C-39. Conservatives feel very—

[The Speaker, Liberal, Anthony Rota]

I am just going to interrupt the hon. House leader. I am going to ask everybody to keep it quiet so that we can hear the question.

The hon. opposition House leader.

[Andrew Scheer, Conservative, Regina—Qu'Appelle, SK]

Mr. Speaker, Thursday is the day when the government informs the House as to the business for the coming days.

I want to note, in particular, the need to address Bill C-39, which has only been tabled very recently, despite the fact that the government had years knowing about a deadline to protect vulnerable Canadians as it relates to the medical assistance in dying regime. There is a deadline looming of March 17.

Conservatives feel very strongly that mental illness should not be the sole factor when considering medical assistance in dying. Therefore, we very much support passing this bill to establish more of a timeline for the government to get this right, and for parliamentarians to come together and get this part of the regime right.

I am hoping that when the government House leader rises to inform the House as to the calendar for the next few days, he can also tell us what the expectations are and how we can deal with this bill in a timely manner so it can get through the Senate and get royal assent to protect vulnerable Canadians who are struggling with mental illness.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Leader of the Government in the House of Commons]

Mr. Speaker, as somebody who has had a battle with mental health issues, I can tell the hon. member that this bill, for our government, for myself and I believe for every member in this House, is something that is exceptionally important and something that we want to get right. We have had very good and deliberative discussions among all parties, and I think we have the opportunity to continue those deliberations to make sure that we get that balance right and that we meet the objective we all have of ensuring that we protect vulnerable people.

Tomorrow we will resume the second reading debate of Bill S-8, an act to amend the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act. On Monday and Wednesday, further to the opposition House leader's question, we will call Bill C-39, which extends the temporary exclusion of eligibility for medical assistance in dying where a person's sole medical condition is a mental illness until March 17, 2024. I would also like to inform the House that Tuesday and Thursday of next week shall be allotted days.

The House resumed consideration of the motion.

Opposition Motion—Use of the Notwithstanding Clause

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons]

Mr. Speaker, as we walked into members' statements, I was trying to highlight the importance of Canada's Charter of Rights and Freedoms, and that we should never take it for granted.

I believe that over the last 40 years we have seen that Canadians, from coast to coast to coast, not only have recognized the importance of it, but it has become a part of our values. When parliamentarians or others travel abroad, we get a sense of pride in the fact that so many other countries around the world look to Canada to demonstrate leadership on the issue of our Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

Yes, there is a clause in there called the notwithstanding clause. At the time, back in 1982, when it was ratified and when Pierre Elliott Trudeau, the Queen and Jean Chrétien as the Attorney General signed off on the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, there was a great sense of optimism. We can hold our heads high in terms of the way Canada is perceived around the world.

The notwithstanding clause was a part of it, and it was something that was put in place in order to demonstrate that Parliament is supreme. It is also something that should be very rarely used or referenced. What we have seen since 2017 is the issue of the pre-emptive usage of the notwithstanding clause. We should all be concerned about that.

We have Liberals on this side of the House who have stood up on that particular issue. The official opposition is nowhere to be found on the issue. That is quite concerning. When I ask questions of Conservatives attempting to address the issue, the simple answer they provide is that it is not federal jurisdiction but provincial. I find that unfortunate because I think the vast majority of Canadians look to the Parliament of Canada to protect the fundamental freedoms and rights of individuals.

I have run out of time. I hope I get a couple of questions.

[Tom Kmiec, Conservative, Calgary Shepard, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the member if he could opine on the Egan v. Canada decision from 1995 and the Oakes test. He went on and on about section 33, which is the substance—

[An hon. member]

Oh, oh!

[Tom Kmiec, Conservative, Calgary Shepard, AB]

Pardon me. Did you not like the accent on it?

[The Speaker, Liberal, Anthony Rota]

Order.

I want to ask members to speak through the Speaker and not to each other, and I want to remind the hon. members to have a certain amount of respect for each other, so that we can have discussions that are somewhat civil in this hallowed place.

The hon. member for Calgary Shepard may continue.

[Tom Kmiec, Conservative, Calgary Shepard, AB]

Mr. Speaker, as with you, English is not my first language. I grew up in the province of Quebec, so this is an issue that actually touches me very deeply. I am an enfant de la loi 101, as many Quebeckers will recognize it. I knew neither French nor English when I came to this country, so when I ask a question about the Constitution of Canada and about the charter and how it affects us, I may not get the pronunciation of “Oakes test” precisely.

I would just like to know something about section 1 and the Oakes test that is used. Many Canadians and many constituents of mine are upset with how it was applied in Canada. They believe there were violations of their charter rights committed during the pandemic, so I would like to hear the member of the Liberal caucus, as we are talking about section 33 of the charter, opine on section 1 and the reasonable limits we can place on people's charter rights. Is the Oakes test sufficient for these times today?

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

Mr. Speaker, I want to reflect on the motion the Bloc has brought forward to the House today, which is of very grave concern. All of us should be taking a look, and the example we have used is with regard to the Province of Ontario using the notwithstanding clause as a pre-emptive measure in order to squash union rights for free bargaining, affecting thousands of Ontarians.

This was not in the 1990s. This was just last fall, and I would think that members on all sides of the House would be concerned. The Minister of Justice has made reference to the fact that we need to be clear that pre-emptive use of the notwithstanding clause is of concern to the government. The Prime Minister himself has made reference to that. The Conservative Party, in contrast, has been nowhere to be found. This is such an important issue, reflecting on the Charter of Rights and Freedoms and the notwithstanding clause, and the Conservatives have been silent. That is unfortunate.

The member might want to refer to something a number of years back, but what we are talking about is the issue of pre-emptive use of the notwithstanding clause. We should all be concerned about that.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Mr. Speaker, the Liberals say they are on the side of workers, but we have seen them basically stab workers in the back. I just have a simple question. Do the Liberals agree that using back-to-work legislation amounts to negotiating in bad faith, with or without the notwithstanding clause?

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

Madam Speaker, I am not going to raise up the many times New Democratic administrations in provincial governments brought in back-to-work legislation. I am not going to fall into that trap.

I believe what we are really talking about is governments, provincial governments in particular, using the notwithstanding clause in a pre-emptive fashion. I am emphasizing that, because whenever we institute the notwithstanding clause, we are talking about taking away rights and freedoms, and the example I am using is one that is very recent.

What I would like to see is members reflect on what took place in the province of Ontario and cite their opinion. I have no idea. The Conservative Party's position, for example, seems to be “We don't care about what the Province of Ontario was doing. It's not our business, because it wasn't in our jurisdiction.” I would argue that they should care. When we are talking about the notwithstanding clause and the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, we all have a vested interest.

How many times have we talked collectively about human rights abroad? Countries around the world look to Canada and our Charter of Rights and Freedoms. They see the notwithstanding clause, and if in fact it is abused by pre-emptive measures, that does not reflect well on us as a nation.

[Claude DeBellefeuille, Bloc, Salaberry—Suroît, QC]

Madam Speaker, I wish to inform you that I will be sharing my time with the fabulous member for Manicouagan.

We are here today to reiterate a fact to everyone and to all federal parliamentarians, specifically, “That the House remind the government that it is solely up to Quebec and the provinces to decide on the use of the notwithstanding clause”.

That is what today's Bloc Québécois motion is all about. It is an opportunity for parliamentarians to clearly indicate their support for a well-known provision of the Canadian Constitution that has been used on many occasions, particularly by the Government of Quebec.

The reason it is important to protect this provision, to send a loud and clear message, is because the Liberal government has recently been calling this provision into question, through the voice of the Prime Minister himself. This is not trivial. It is extremely important, and surprising at the same time.

The Prime Minister is talking about a major paradigm shift in relations between Ottawa, Quebec, the provinces and the territories. The Prime Minister is questioning the ability of Quebec and the provinces to decide for themselves. The Prime Minister is suggesting that using the notwithstanding clause is fine, but only when he thinks it is appropriate. That is why our motion is important.

Before the Supreme Court of Canada is called upon by the government across the way to rule on the use of the notwithstanding clause, let us send a very clear message. The notwithstanding clause is an essential clause in the federative pact. Without the notwithstanding clause, there would be no federative pact as we know it. It is the provinces, not Quebec, that managed to grab this right to difference.

I will humbly submit that the notwithstanding clause is the bare minimum for respecting the democratic agenda of the National Assembly of Quebec. Calling into question the right of Quebec and the provinces to use the notwithstanding clause is the symptom of a much deeper problem. The federal government is calling into question this constitutional provision in a very specific context.

The context, in my view, is the very recent passing of two laws in Quebec, one on language and the other on state secularism, that use the notwithstanding clause. These two laws share the fact that they deal with fundamental aspects of Quebec's identity, namely language and our own idea of secularism.

These two laws enjoy a broad consensus among the Quebec population. These two laws also share the fact that they have been debated, improved, commented on, studied, obviously criticized, but ultimately passed by elected members of the National Assembly of Quebec, with their eyes wide open, weighing everything in the balance.

It would seem, then, that the calling into question of the notwithstanding clause comes at a time when the Quebec National Assembly is asserting itself through these two laws. I point out this simultaneity because it is important.

Citizens may not be aware of it, but Quebec has used the notwithstanding clause several times in its history. While Quebec was repeatedly using the notwithstanding clause, no outcry questioning its choices could be heard.

Here are some examples to make that clear. Let us take the Act respecting La Financière agricole du Québec. Quebec wants to do everything it can to support the next generation of farmers, as the agricultural sector is essential to its economy and regions. We must therefore assist in some way the young farmers. This can be done only through invoking the notwithstanding clause. Has this created an outcry? The answer is no, not at all.

Now let us take the employment equity act. Quebec is taking the lead in promoting the inclusion of all its citizens of different genders, backgrounds and abilities in its workplaces. This requires invoking the notwithstanding clause. Was there an outcry? The answer is no, not at all.

The federal government is quick to challenge the use of the notwithstanding clause in the Supreme Court of Canada.

Let us talk about small claims court, which is another concrete example. It is a Quebec innovation that allows citizens to resolve civil disputes in a more accessible, open and fair manner. The existence of such a court requires the notwithstanding clause.

Closer to home, there is the youth court. Quebec's elected officials are betting that protecting the identity of children during trials is more important than the right to a public trial. This requires the use of the notwithstanding clause. Is the judgment of Quebec's elected officials being called into question? Not at all. What I am trying to say is that in each of these cases Quebec proceeded in its own way. Our collective and democratic choices led to innovation and important legislation that all required the use of the notwithstanding clause. In these examples, the use of the notwithstanding clause was never called into question. Why is Quebec's right to make its own choices challenged as soon as we talk about language and secularism?

Perhaps citing these two recent Quebec laws, Bill 96 and Bill 21, which have elicited a rather public outcry on the Liberal benches, makes my argument a somewhat emotional one. They may be poor examples, so I will cite another.

Quebeckers remember how Liberal premier Robert Bourassa caused quite a stir, a very public stir, when he used the notwithstanding clause to protect the use of French alone on commercial signs. Times have certainly changed, but I think the debate is the same. The notwithstanding clause is all well and good except when Quebec wants to use it to assert itself. Then it is up for debate. This typical reaction to Quebec asserting itself is quite something. I wanted to briefly illustrate that in the context of today's debate.

In their speeches today, my Liberal and NDP colleagues have tried to distract our attention. Some members have raised the argument of pre-emptive use of the notwithstanding clause. They say that Quebec would short-circuit the judicial process by stating from the get-go that its law is legitimate, necessary and balanced even though it needs the notwithstanding clause. I see that as a convenient red herring for some MPs because today's motion does not even ask members to address that issue.

Today’s motion merely affirms one fact: It confirms that federal MPs support section 33 of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. I would ask my federal colleagues, even if they do not always support the decisions of their legislature, to make it clear that they recognize that their province’s legislature is legitimate, and that it makes decisions democratically. In fact, what I am asking is that those members recognize the autonomy and sovereignty of their legislature.

I can tell the citizens of Salaberry—Suroît that my Bloc Québécois colleagues and I undeniably recognize the legitimacy and autonomy of the elected members of the Quebec National Assembly. The members are elected, and debates take place. Several parties and schools of thought are represented, civil society plays an active role, and the media is doing its job. We live under the rule of law. Basically, it is not always perfect, but what we can say is that the checks and balances work well in Quebec. Quebec’s use of the notwithstanding clause has not upset this democratic balance of power. In fact, the notwithstanding clause is part of the balance of power of Quebec, its national assembly, its elected members and, ultimately, Quebeckers dealing with a federal government that is increasingly activist and less tolerant of the legitimate and measured decisions of Quebec society.

Let us decide for ourselves: Let us support the motion put forward by the leader of the Bloc Québécois, the member for Beloeil—Chambly.

[David Lametti, Liberal, Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada]

Madam Speaker, I thank my colleague for her speech.

I would point out that René Lévesque was against the notwithstanding clause. He did not want it in his charter. He and Camille Laurin were great supporters of human rights. With the changes brought to the Quebec charter through Bills 21 and 96, we can no longer say that it is René Lévesque's and Camille Laurin's charter.

I would like my colleague to comment on the following. The trial judge on the Bill 21 case stated that the pre-emptive use of the notwithstanding clause suppressed not only the court's analysis, but also political debate. That is the opposite of what Robert Bourassa did legitimately when he used the notwithstanding clause after a Supreme Court decision was rendered.

[Claude DeBellefeuille, Bloc, Salaberry—Suroît, QC]

Madam Speaker, one side of the House giving the other side history lessons will not change the fact that Premier René Lévesque never signed the Constitution. He rejected it outright. The other provinces joined together to wrest the notwithstanding clause.

Madam Speaker, I hear my colleagues talking. I showed respect in listening to my colleague's question, and I would like him to show the same respect for me. I think it is a legitimate request.

My colleague has some legal background and I think he holds Professor Benoît Pelletier, who is a professor at the University of Ottawa and a former Liberal minister of intergovernmental affairs, in high regard. I would like to quote him:

One of the main dangers facing Quebec, like all other national minorities around the world, is the levelling effect of the courts. The notwithstanding clause has been used in the past to counter this tendency and to assert collective rights that are necessary to preserve minority cultures, but are nevertheless not explicitly recognized in the Canadian Charter. This is a—

[The Assistant Deputy Speaker, NDP, Carol Hughes]

I am sorry to interrupt the hon. member, but her time is up.

Some members of the House have further questions or comments.

The hon. member for Edmonton Strathcona.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Madam Speaker, I am an Albertan and the use of the notwithstanding clause has been threatened and used in Alberta in the past under Ralph Klein.

As somebody who I expect recognizes that climate change is real and how important it is, does the member really want Danielle Smith to have the power to undermine our environmental protections, to do coal mining in the Rocky Mountains, to release water from tailings ponds that goes into the Northwest Territories? Is that really what she would like to see happen in our country?

[Claude DeBellefeuille, Bloc, Salaberry—Suroît, QC]

Madam Speaker, I often tell my hon. colleague that I believe she is a member of the wrong legislature.

I believe that if Albertans elect Danielle Smith as their premier, it is because they trust her. Democracy exists in her province as well. It is not up to Parliament, to the House of Commons to dictate what the provinces should do.

My colleague should campaign to beat Danielle Smith and elect a premier who will use these legislative and constitutional tools to serve the interests of the people of Alberta.

[John Brassard, Conservative, Barrie—Innisfil, ON]

Madam Speaker, the member referred to the fact that the Prime Minister used wedge politics to pit Canadians against Canadians and Quebeckers against Quebeckers. It should come as no surprise that he is creating a constitutional crisis to deflect attention from his failures.

Does she agree with me that the current Prime Minister has made the most use of wedge politics in the history of Canada?