Debates of May 29th, 2023

Department of Finance—Main Estimates, 2023-24

[Elizabeth May, Green, Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC]

Madam Chair, for those in the chamber who are wondering if I have crossed the floor, out of respect for the minister, I would like to see her as I ask the questions. I hope to make this more like a conversation and less like ping pong, if for nothing else, then for a bit of a break.

I do want to use my time well though, so I want to start with something rather basic. I have observed, over the years, that provincial governments get announcements in the minister's budget, such as $3 billion for ventilating schools to improve safety during COVID. Does the minister have any way to track whether provinces spend money on health care or school ventilation or anything else, as allocated by the federal government to the provinces?

[Chrystia Freeland, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Finance]

Madam Chair, the member opposite is an extremely experienced parliamentarian and has a lot of experience in the federal government from before. She knows that each investment has its own requirements.

I certainly agree with her that tracking how federal investments are spent is really important, and we definitely seek to do that. It is something that we need to put a lot of emphasis on.

[Elizabeth May, Green, Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC]

Madam Chair, I want to switch to the climate crisis. Given the comments and a lot of good questions that were asked by the hon. member for Repentigny, which I might have asked, I just want to put into context that, while this federal government spends more money than others, I would not say that it has the best plan, compared with even the previous Liberal government of Paul Martin.

The current context is that we are up against the very edge of too late. The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change has warned us that if we do not ensure that global emissions peak and begin to fall no later than before 2025, we will go past 1.5° and past 2°, meaning no new fossil fuel infrastructure is possible and no new fossil fuel exploitation expanding is possible.

Given that, and looking at the Trans Mountain pipeline, the minister said, in February 2022, that there would be no more public monies going to that project. However, as economists like Robyn Allan have pointed out, the debt load amounts to $700 million a year, as in last year's debt. The Government of Canada is responsible for the interest payments on that debt.

Does the hon. minister have any comments on how we square these two realities: the promise of no public money being spent and the constant pressure that the government is responsible for $10 billion, minimum, in debt on the project?

[Chrystia Freeland, Liberal, University—Rosedale, ON]

Madam Chair, there were lots of points put in there. Let me just start where the member for Saanich—Gulf Islands started, with the urgency of climate action. I totally agree, and that is why I found some of the discussion tonight very frustrating. The reality is that this is the existential challenge of our time, and I think it is worth paying tribute to the member for Saanich—Gulf Islands for the very many years she has spent working on this.

I do accept that better is always possible, and we have not said the final word on climate action. We need to continue to do better. I also accept, although it makes me very sad, that I will never fully satisfy the member for Saanich—Gulf Islands with our climate action, but I hope she recognizes that the plan we put forward in our budget is meaningful, a meaningful advance, and that these investments that our set of tax credits will enable will make a real difference in Canada.

Finally, as I hope the debate this evening has helped underscore for the member for Saanich—Gulf Islands, there is still a live debate in Canada about having a price on pollution. I actually also want to pay tribute to my Prime Minister, who knew early on when we formed government that this was important, and he has held his—

[The Deputy Chair, NDP, Carol Hughes]

The hon. member for Saanich—Gulf Islands.

[Elizabeth May, Green, Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC]

Madam Chair, it is not about whether the hon. minister can satisfy me, but whether my grandchildren will have a survivable future, or whether the hon. minister's or the hon. parliamentary secretary's children will. There is science behind what I am saying, which is that building the Trans Mountain pipeline means the Paris commitments cannot be held to.

The hon. minister said, earlier tonight, that she believes in economic independence. Does she not know that the Trans Mountain pipeline will ship mostly dilbit to refineries in the United States?

[Chrystia Freeland, Liberal, University—Rosedale, ON]

Madam Chair, I always enjoy my conversations with the member for Saanich—Gulf Islands, and we agree on a lot of things. I think the Trans Mountain pipeline is something we disagree on. I believe very strongly in the importance of Canada having sovereign control over our natural resources, and this is an important measure to give us that.

[Elizabeth May, Green, Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC]

Madam Chair, with respect to the Trans Mountain pipeline expansion, which has been completely condemned by every international science organization, not in its specificity, but because any new fossil fuel infrastructure is condemned as it goes against the interests of future generations and blows through the Paris agreement, will the hon. minister consider this? Since the budget does not mention this current project to expand the Trans Mountain pipeline, perhaps we could take the Crown corporation that exists, and convert it to use all the multi-million dollars' worth of equipment and manpower to build fire breaks, expand culverts, and otherwise protect communities from climate emergency events.

[Chrystia Freeland, Liberal, University—Rosedale, ON]

Madam Chair, our government's position on the Trans Mountain expansion is clear. The project is close to completion. It will bring economic benefit to Canada, not the least of which will be to indigenous peoples. Indigenous participation in the project is an important element for us, and I very much support the decision our government made previously to undertake this project.

[Elizabeth May, Green, Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC]

Madam Chair, the hon. minister may be unaware that the Tsleil-Waututh, Musqueam, Squamish and W̱SÁNEĆ peoples, the people along the coastline of the Salish Sea, know that their entire future will be wiped out with a single tanker accident, which is inevitable with dilbit, which cannot be cleaned up in a marine environment—

[The Deputy Chair, NDP, Carol Hughes]

I have to let the hon. minister respond briefly.

[Chrystia Freeland, Liberal, University—Rosedale, ON]

Madam Chair, let me just say that I respect very much the advocacy of, and concerns raised by, the member for Saanich—Gulf Islands. I think we are going to have to agree to differ on this issue.

Indigenous participation in all major projects in Canada is important for our government.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

Madam Chair, I would like to begin by indicating I will be splitting my time with my colleague, the MP for Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie.

I rise today to talk about the desperate need for tax fairness in our country. Canadians are struggling. Workers and people on fixed incomes are struggling. In my constituency, children and their families are struggling. Northern Manitoba has the second highest child poverty rate in the country. First nations and indigenous communities are living in third world conditions.

However, all the while the rich are getting richer in our country, and this did not just happen. This is an accumulation of wealth, a hoarding of wealth, that is aided and abetted by the consecutive federal Liberal and Conservative governments' policies that benefit the ultrarich in their tax avoidance, and even tax evasion, schemes.

However, I want to, for a moment, point to the fact that during COVID-19 we saw something very interesting. Two things happened concurrently: there was a massive reduction in child poverty as a result of COVID-era supports; however, the gap between rich and poor grew to historic levels.

While most Canadians would choose to further reduce child poverty, the minister and the Liberal government eliminated the benefits that lifted so many out of poverty, but maintained the tax policies that keep so many in it and benefit the ultrarich. This is shocking. It is not just the moral thing to do, but it is the popular thing to do, to bring about tax fairness.

No one would ever accuse the government of doing things because they are right, but I would think the government would do it because it is popular, at least.

Over 90% of Canadians believe that the ultra-wealthy need to pay with fair share, so my questions today are focused on why the government is failing to act on this front. In fact, 11 years ago the finance minister wrote a book calling attention to the concentration of wealth into a new billionaire class.

My question to the minister is this: Does the minister know what percentage of wealth created in the last 10 years has gone to the richest 1% in Canada?

[Chrystia Freeland, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Finance]

Madam Chair, I actually had been intending to mention plutocrats, so I am glad the member opposite got there before me.

I do agree with many of the core assertions the member opposite has made. I agree that tax fairness is really important, and—

[The Deputy Chair, NDP, Carol Hughes]

The hon. member.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

Madam Chair, I did not hear an answer. The answer is that 34% of the wealth created in the last 10 years went to the richest 1%.

[An hon. member]

Oh, oh!

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

There is a preamble that is allowed—

[The Deputy Chair, NDP, Carol Hughes]

The hon. parliamentary secretary is rising on a point of order.

[Gary Anandasangaree, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge Park, ON]

Madam Chair, my understanding is that both the question and the answer have the same amount of time, so in this case it seems like a bit of an imbalance.

[The Deputy Chair, NDP, Carol Hughes]

The member said, “My question to the minister is this”, so it started when she said that “my question to the minister”. There is a preamble there, and then if it is clear as to when the question starts, the time is from when the question starts.

The hon. member.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

Madam Chair, I repeat that there was no answer to the question, but 34% of wealth created in the last 10 years went to the richest 1% of Canadians, and only 5% went to the poorest 50%.

Why are the minister and her government upholding the same plutocratic systems that her book criticizes?

[Chrystia Freeland, Liberal, University—Rosedale, ON]

Madam Chair, the answer is that we are not. We are the government that introduced a luxury tax on luxury cars, planes and yachts. We are the government that introduced the Canada recovery dividend of 15% on banks and insurance companies. We have permanently raised the corporate income tax by 1.5% on the largest and most profitable banks and insurance companies. These are real, concrete and meaningful measures to—

[The Deputy Chair, NDP, Carol Hughes]

The hon. member.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

Madam Chair, my answer to that is that it is nowhere near enough, given the accumulation of wealth we are seeing, a kind of accumulation we have not seen before in our country.

Let us turn to the climate crisis. Canadians expected leadership from the government, but they have been sorely disappointed. The government has instead offloaded its climate transition plan onto our tax code, preferring to line the pockets of wealthy CEOs by investing $80 billion in tax credits for the ultra-wealthy.

How can the minister guarantee that the tax credits will actually go to decarbonization?