Debates of May 9th, 2023

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs

[The Assistant Deputy Speaker, NDP, Carol Hughes]

The hon. parliamentary secretary to the government House leader is rising on a point of order.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

Madam Speaker, the member is proving, by the statements he is making, that more and more of his debate is not about the motion. The member is talking about other legislation. He is not talking about the motion at hand. He is either attacking the Prime Minister or talking about issues that are not relevant.

[Some hon. members]

Debate.

[The Assistant Deputy Speaker, NDP, Carol Hughes]

I am able to make my rulings.

The hon. parliamentary secretary knows full well that there is some latitude during discussions in the House and that other matters get brought into the debates. I would say that this is what is happening, and the hon. parliamentary secretary has raised more a point of debate than a point of order.

The hon. member for Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner has the floor.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Madam Speaker, I appreciate your ruling on this.

As I said before, the Liberals and the NDP are preparing to quash debate on Bill C-21, limit opposition to only five minutes per amendment and then force votes. As I said, over in the PMO, there is a Prime Minister proud of the basic dictatorship that he has created for himself.

When the Speaker of the House made his ruling, and in that ruling supported a prima facie case of contempt concerning the intimidation campaign orchestrated by Wei Zhao against the member for Wellington—Halton Hills, it gave me hope and it ought to give Canadians hope.

The Speaker of the House and I are no different. We are two MPs, elected by our constituents to represent them here in Ottawa. We are both doing our best with the skills and experiences we have. We know that we have to go back to our constituents, face them and account for the decisions that we make in this place.

I speak here today with some hesitancy, as we are not immune to the intimidation that was faced by the MP for Wellington—Halton Hills and other members of the House. I know that speaking on this important topic opens the possibility of being put in the sight of the Communist government in Beijing, much in the same way that I can imagine the Speaker of the House had and was possibly thinking about when he drafted this decision.

For me and those in law enforcement, we have faced these decisions before. Back in the years I was in policing, I faced threats and intimidation, but I always knew that my brothers in blue had my back. There was a sense of being protected from those who wished me harm because we were a team, a family.

In this place we are a family too, but recently the trust that is needed to rely on each other as a family has been eroding. The Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs and its cross-party membership is now in a unique position to rebuild that trust. It will need to look past party differences, just as the Speaker of House did and has been able to do. It will need to take the required time, debate openly and review the situation. It will have a chance to send back a decision that shows support to the MP for Wellington-Halton Hills and other members of the House who have faced the intimidation campaign orchestrated by Wei Zhao on behalf of the Communist government of China, as well as the others who could possibly could face that, moving forward.

This committee can show Canadians and the Beijing Communist government that, although we disagree on a lot, and I mean a lot, when it comes to protecting Canadian democracy, we are all unwavering. That would send a clear message to Beijing to stay out of our politics, and a strong message to all members of the House that we have each others' backs. Will we admit that we are susceptible to foreign interference, or will the Prime Minister instruct his coalition to continue to cover this up, to steamroll the committee, as they seem eager to do when it comes to domestic policy such as the example I gave with Bill C-21? Will the committee show the world that we are fractionalized with a system of government that can be influenced from the outside? Will the Prime Minister utilize his control through the basic dictatorship he has been building in China's likeness?

I hope that the members of the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs have the same sense of honour and good conscious that the Speaker of this House showed in the prima facie decision he made.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

Madam Speaker, I listened with great interest to my colleague, with whom I serve on the public safety committee. He reflected on his career in law enforcement and his profound shock and disappointment at the foreign interference and the intimidation of the member for Wellington—Halton Hills. We all share that concern.

I also note that the member opposite spent a considerable amount of time talking about how much he supported the convoy that occupied Ottawa and how much time he spent with the organizers of that convoy. I would like to know if he is as concerned about the Russian foreign interference that took place during the support of the convoy—

[The Assistant Deputy Speaker, NDP, Carol Hughes]

There is a point of order from the hon. member for Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies.

[Bob Zimmer, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC]

Madam Speaker, it is certainly over the top for the member to impugn the integrity of another member on this side with that question. He should take back that comment. I think that would be appropriate in this case.

[The Assistant Deputy Speaker, NDP, Carol Hughes]

This is another point of debate.

The hon. member for Vancouver Granville has the floor.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

Madam Speaker, I would like to ask the hon. member opposite, having supported the convoy, and having met with the organizers of the convoy, if he is equally concerned about Russia's interference in amplifying the message of the convoy. If so, what does he propose to do about Russia's interference in that situation?

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Madam Speaker, I find the question odd. Distraction seems to be the common theme here.

Those involved in the “freedom convoy” were disgusted with the current government and their ability to continue to earn a living based on its vaccine mandates. The statement that the member made about the Russian influence in the “freedom convoy” has no basis in truth, and the evidence is suspect at best, so I do not know where he is getting this information from.

I will say that the foreign interference before the House, which we are seized with now with regard to the member of Parliament for Wellington—Halton Hills, is significant and needs to be given the full attention of this House. What I am disgusted with is the delay by the government. It knew for two years and did nothing about it.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Madam Speaker, I am glad to find out that the member has a seat on the Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security, because I have some questions. What would make a Prime Minister ignore recommendations and special security intelligence concerning Canada? It all seems very alarming. I mean, is it not essential to listen to what CSIS has to say? How are we supposed to perform our duties as members if the recommendations made by the agencies created to protect us and keep us safe are ignored?

As a member of this committee, is my colleague not tempted to ask questions and make sure that the integrity of the role of member of Parliament is protected?

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Madam Speaker, “willful blindness” is the term I would use to describe this. I trust implicitly the skill and ability of our national security apparatus, CSIS and others, to ensure that it gathers the information in an appropriate way. There is no doubt in my mind that CSIS provided the information to the national security adviser, who has admitted that it did, and others, in a timely way with exactly what was going on as it was happening.

For the Prime Minister and his office to suggest to Canadians that he did not know about it until Monday of last week, and I struggle with the right word to use so it is not unparliamentary, but I find it difficult to believe. The Prime Minister has a serious credibility problem, and this just amplifies what we have seen over the last seven and a half years with the Prime Minister.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

Madam Speaker, I am glad the convoy issue was raised because Americans came to my riding to be part of the illegal blockade along Huron Church Road at the Ambassador Bridge. There is certainly a record of those individuals.

I am wondering whether the hon. member thinks those people should now be barred from coming into Canada. Similarly, and to our embarrassment, the Proud Boys went to Washington as part of the civil issue that is now quite public. Does the member think they should be banned from going into the United States, especially because our democracies are affected by the actions of those individuals?

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Madam Speaker, again the question is somewhat unrelated to our debate, but I will answer that any extremist group, left-wing or right-wing, that undermines our democracy needs to be dealt with and should have the full support of the House to deal with that in an appropriate way.

[Bob Zimmer, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC]

Madam Speaker, there it is. We see members of the Liberal Party and the NDP focused on the freedom movement, which really stood up for freedom and what the current government was doing. My question for the member is related to this, because it shows the Liberals' level of disregard. Instead of looking at Chinese Communist foreign interference and dealing with that issue, they were attacking their own citizens at that time.

I was just at PROC, where we had two witnesses who testified three times. Every time they attempted to testify and speak, there was a broadcast interruption. I talked to one of the witnesses, who said that when she said she was going to testify, her computer went down.

If the current government would have taken foreign interference seriously, as the party across the way does, we would not be in this situation. Is the member confident that the current Prime Minister and the Liberal government have the backs of Canadians with respect to foreign interference?

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Madam Speaker, I will say this: It is a sad day when the fine ladies and gentlemen of our national security apparatus find it necessary to go contrary to their oath of secrecy to get matters before the public's attention. They do so because the current Prime Minister and the government refuse to deal with the matters that come before them that impact them, make them look bad or mean that they are seen as having the advantage they have. Therefore, no, I do not have confidence in the government to properly deal with some of the issues, because of its own thirst for power and its inability to do anything that is beyond its own self-interest.

[Ken McDonald, Liberal, Avalon, NL]

Madam Speaker, a lot of the speeches we have heard in the House on this topic centre on the idea of a public inquiry, and the member mentioned that. If a public inquiry were held and it upheld what has been said by the members on this side with respect to who knew what, heard what or participated in what and when, would the members opposite accept that ruling or would they say that there was something wrong with the public inquiry?

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Madam Speaker, that is a unique question, and I thank the member for it.

The issue is this: The evidence that has been presented is non-partisan, and it is pretty clear. Yes, I support a public inquiry. Therefore, my question back would be this: Would the current government actually act on the findings of a public inquiry to improve our country's ability to reduce, limit and stop foreign interference?

[Cathay Wagantall, Conservative, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

Madam Speaker, I would like to draw this to the attention of my colleague: Was it not our government's decision to not allow the U.S. to open NEXUS stations in Canada because they would basically be American soil, yet we have allowed police stations from China to open up?

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Madam Speaker, on this side, as Conservatives, we have said that Canada is broken. The example my colleague mentioned is another example of Canada being broken under the lack of leadership of the current Prime Minister and the Liberal government. The fact that we can have foreign states operating with impunity on Canadian soil speaks to the depth and seriousness of where we find ourselves. Yes, it is disconcerting.

[Kevin Vuong, Independent, Spadina—Fort York, ON]

Madam Speaker, I am pleased to be able to speak on the motion standing in the name of the hon. member for Wellington—Halton Hills.

Like most Canadians, I was appalled to hear of the treatment of my hon. colleague, and I immediately presumed that the government would be taking firm action by expelling the Chinese diplomat responsible. That is what any government should do, especially when facts are clear. It should act immediately.

However, the Liberal government did not. It immediately went into its patented circle-the-wagons approach to try to obfuscate, deflect and then pay lip service. Promises were made to stand up to ensure the safety of all members of the House; however, such noncommittal platitudes for the cameras were not backed up by concrete action. The NATO-esque mantra that an attack on one of us is an attack on all of us wears just a little thin. Moreover, one certainly hopes that no member is counting on such whimsical offerings of invisible protection.

Members deserve to know when a threat is made against them by anyone, whether foreign or domestic. They deserve to know who made the threat, when it was made and how the government will respond, hopefully in a timely fashion. This process clearly did not happen in the case of the hon. member for Wellington—Halton Hills.

When a member is the target of a threat, they should be advised. This should be carried out efficiently and in the most expeditious manner. The government, CSIS, the RCMP or any other of our security services should be involved. Yet, in this case, while the government indicated that it would stand up for the safety and security of a member, it then pawned it off on others to let the target know.

Information on a threat to the hon. member for Wellington—Halton Hills was known within CSIS and, at some point, within the PMO. The Prime Minister and his group of security ministers surely must have known. Why, then, did it take months for the member to be informed of this threat? Was it due to the government's ongoing reluctance to do anything that it thinks would upset the Chinese government? If the safety and security of members is said to be a primary focus of the Prime Minister and his government, one must question how much of a priority is really attached. Would this threat ever have come to light? Did the government adopt a wait-and-see approach? Perhaps it hoped that nothing would happen and that the matter would just go away.

What message does this lackadaisical approach send to Beijing? What picture does it paint of the government's first and foremost role to protect Canadians? It seems that foreign operatives can threaten our citizens at will, and maybe, in a couple of months, our government just might get around to doing nothing.

Perhaps some Liberal Party focus group finally indicated to the government that it should declare Wei Zhao to be persona non grata. However, the government was oblivious to supporting the opposition motion before the House calling for the exact same thing and a few other sensible measures to combat Chinese interference in our democracy.

After the vote passed, with the support of all members of the House except the Liberals and one independent member, the government stood up and announced that Mr. Zhao would be sent packing. It is not a contest. All governments have an obligation to put people before foreign operatives and party polling. Why are we still debating the creation of a foreign agent registry, similar to what the United States and Australia have? Why is the government so opposed to creating a public inquiry on foreign interference? With so much smoke, Canadians know that a good fire is smouldering.

Why is the government so reluctant to shut down Chinese police stations? The U.S. did not put up with this meddling in their internal affairs. The Chinese government would not put up with it for one moment if a few RCMP stations popped up in Shanghai. I do not know what is causing such a timid government response to confronting the issue of foreign interference. Is the government content to display to Beijing that our country is a doormat and will not stand up for MPs and Canadians across our country? Canadians deserve better. Hopefully they will get it, if Beijing allows.

I made reference to Australia. I want to do a Canada-Australia comparative analysis on fighting foreign interference. Both of our countries are resource-based economies. We are of similar size, population and land mass. Frankly, just like them, we have a lot of people spread out and dispersed outside of urban centres, and we share a lot of their multicultural characteristics. However, unlike Canada, Australia has created a foreign agent registry. The country has taken action, even at significant economic cost.

In 2022, over a quarter of Australia's exports, 25.9%, to be exact, went to China. For Canada, it is only 3.7% of Canadian exports. I want to reiterate something that an expert on Chinese Communist Party influence stated. Vice-Admiral Paul Maddison, formerly a commander for the Royal Canadian Navy, now retired, as well as Canada's high commissioner to Australia, stated this: “Exposure to economic coercion [of Canada] is much less than in [Australia], yet Australia has stood up to the CCP, absorbed the costs, diversified trade, and made it clear that no foreign power will be permitted to undermine its democracy and values.”

Is it the government's intention to send a clear signal to Beijing that Canada is a doormat? How difficult is it to create a registry? Did the PSAC strike set it back a few weeks? How has the government stood up and confronted Chinese interference in Canada head-on? I shudder when I think about what our allies must be thinking.

The government recently expressed its desire to enter AUKUS, after the Prime Minister had initially dismissed the security partnership as just looking at nuclear subs. How could our allies trust us? What message does it send, when the Prime Minister seems more intent on communicating to NATO that we will not even bother with hitting 2%, although this is an international commitment that our nation has made?

I also want to address the issue of racism, because it is often raised as a rebuttal to criticize action, whether it be on a foreign registry or otherwise. Right out of the Chinese Communist Party playbook, the issue of racism is used to deflect when there is any sort of real legitimate criticism, whether it be against the ongoing Uyghur genocide or attacking and dismantling the democratic institutions of Hong Kong. China continues its aggression toward Taiwan, threatening any country and trying to intimidate anyone who dares to support the rightful membership of Taiwan in the WHO. This deprived the world of the expertise, lessons learned and best practices that Taiwan could have contributed to help fight the pandemic. There is also ongoing Chinese aggression in the South China Sea, despite UNCLOS, the UN Convention on the Law of the Sea.

We must take action to address foreign interference, and we must take what the hon. member for Wellington—Halton Hills has raised very seriously. If we do not, there is a real cloud of racism that is in play here. It hovers over any Canadian of Chinese heritage or anyone who might look like they are of Chinese heritage. We need the government to return to its sunny ways and shine a light into the shadows where foreign operatives hide.

Because there are incredible Canadians of Chinese heritage, and because May is Asian Heritage Month, I want to take this occasion to speak about one of them. I want to highlight Lieutenant-Commander William King Lowd Lore. This hero had his application to join the Royal Canadian Navy rejected three times, in 1940, 1941 and 1942, until the chief of naval staff intervened.

Lieutenant-Commander Lore went on to become not only the first Chinese Canadian officer in the Royal Canadian Navy, but the first naval officer of Chinese heritage to serve in any of the Commonwealth royal navies. There are Canadians of proud Chinese heritage who loyally served this country and continue to do so today. Lieutenant-Commander Lore forged a path for others to be able to follow in his footsteps, including myself, to be able to proudly serve in His Majesty's Royal Canadian Navy.

Speaking of brave leaders, I want to take the occasion to reiterate my support and admiration for the hon. member for Wellington—Halton Hills. He is of Chinese heritage like me, but he has served in this House for much longer and has been a role model and a leader who has made it easier for someone like myself to be able to serve, because one cannot be what one cannot see. It is hard for kids growing up without seeing someone who looks like them in a particular role or job to be able to imagine themselves in that position. Whether it is Lieutenant-Commander Lore, whose descendants I had the honour of meeting, or the hon. member for Wellington—Halton Hills, they are trailblazers and leaders who made it easier for everyone who came after them.

I want to conclude. Yesterday we finally learned, after the government actually decided to finally do something, that the threshold to expel a diplomat is targeting an MP's family. This is a good first step, but I would argue that setting up illegal police stations in our country and intimidating our people on our soil also warrant action, not the least of which should include shutting down these police stations. Let us show these oppressive regimes that Canada is not a doormat.

I hope the federal government listens to the majority of parliamentarians, who voted yesterday for the Conservative motion on foreign interference.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons]

Madam Speaker, I would like to reinforce the fact that it has been very clear that the Prime Minister first found out about this just last week. I know it upsets a number of people in this chamber, but the fact is that the Prime Minister found out about it just last week. Since then, he has taken a number of direct actions to deal with the issue. Other issues, such as the registry and the public inquiry, could be dealt with by David Johnston, who was a Conservative Stephen Harper appointment. We will wait for that report to come. There is no denying that this government has been proactive on the file.

Does the member not believe, when he talks about the credibility and integrity of individuals, that all members in this chamber are honourable, and if the Prime Minister says he learned about it last week, that is a fact?

[Kevin Vuong, Independent, Spadina—Fort York, ON]

Madam Speaker, I remain skeptical that the Prime Minister only just found out, because I have trouble reconciling the fact that his chief of staff said that everything that is put in front of her gets put in front of him.

Let us presume he really did just find out, and accept what my colleague just said. How is that a good excuse? An MP's family was targeted, and only recently, after two years, did he just find out. That is not a good excuse, so either he was willfully ignorant or he intentionally decided not to hear it, or he was incompetent. Those are not good rationales to try to explain this away, and I would encourage my colleague to please drop that talking point.

[Robert Gordon Kitchen, Conservative, Souris—Moose Mountain, SK]

Madam Speaker, recognizing the member's history and his role in the military, and understanding the processes that happen, if we were to assume that the Prime Minister actually just knew about these things a week ago, what does it say about the system that has been set up for the Prime Minister to even know that information?

As the hon. member knows, as one follows through the ranking process and information is being shared, there is a process in place. I would like to hear his comments on this. If this is the case, what sort of denigrated structure is set?