Debates of Oct. 21st, 2024

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Mr. Speaker, now they are upset.

How can the Conservatives square the circle of the fact that they are involved?

[The Speaker, Liberal, Greg Fergus]

Order. I am certain all members would like to hear the answer.

The hon. member for Niagara West.

[Dean Allison, Conservative, Niagara West, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I want to thank the hon. member for Edmonton Griesbach for going back 20 or 30 years trying to find a scandal. I appreciate that.

At the end of the day, our job here is to partly make sure that our constituents are better off and they have more money. That is something that, under the Stephen Harper government, we did. More people had more money in their pockets. I was proud to be a part of that government where more people had more money in their pockets.

Quite frankly, over the last number of years, a lot of what has happened in terms of the cost of goods and services is driven by the carbon tax that has made everything more expensive. When we get back in power, we will make sure that we take care of that.

[Elizabeth May, Green, Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I think we have a bigger problem than one of a partisan label.

I appreciate my hon. colleague raising the issue of using outside contractors as opposed to people within our civil service; so, McKinsey, Deloitte, all of them. We saw a real increase in contracting out that started around 2005 with the idea of getting rid of individual service providers within each department and just having a 1-800 Service Canada number. We saw the same thing happen with the decision to outsource payroll and got IBM to supposedly save us a lot of money, but it cost us over $5 billion. I think we need to have accountability at multiple levels from when we started deciding we were better off contracting out. I would ask my hon. colleague if his party would want to take another look at some of the mistakes of the past.

[Dean Allison, Conservative, Niagara West, ON]

Mr. Speaker, one of the things we have been talking about here for some time is looking at the amount of money that has been spent on consultants. However, we have also seen the civil service increase by almost 40%. Part of what we need to do is make sure that the civil service has the ability and expertise to get some of those things done. If we are increasing the amount of money for the civil service and then still needing outside contractors, we should be looking at what we have, doing an analysis of that and trying to get the best bang for taxpayers' dollars. That is what we are required to do as officials and those who are elected to serve our constituents.

[Adam Chambers, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

Mr. Speaker, it is always a pleasure to rise here, and I appreciated my colleague's comments.

I like to be collaborative, and we are obviously at a bit of a stalemate. I have an idea to propose that I want my hon. colleague's thoughts on: Either the documents get produced or maybe the government should just get back the $400 million. I would support either one of those things happening, and then maybe we could move on. Would my hon. colleague like to comment on that suggestion?

[Dean Allison, Conservative, Niagara West, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I think that there is one other option. Maybe we can have an election and we can determine how we feel the carbon tax has played out with individuals, and whether the people feel that their dollars have been spent wisely. I think maybe I will just propose a third option to my colleague for Simcoe North that we look at having an election and letting the people decide what we should do as we move forward.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons]

Mr. Speaker, just because a Conservative member says something in the House does not necessarily mean that it is factually accurate, and I will give a tangible example.

Many Conservatives stand in their place and talk about a Liberal-leaning board. The member knows, and if he does not then he should know, that the chair of the board was an adviser to Stephen Harper, Brian Mulroney and Jim Flaherty, and contributed thousands of dollars to the Conservative Party. Yes, we did appoint her to the board, and there were tangible actions taken. However, all that aside, every Conservative who stands up to talk about the issue tries to give the false impression that this is some corrupt Liberal when they know full well that is not the case. Can the member explain why it is that Conservatives tend to want to exaggerate what might not necessarily be the reality?

[Dean Allison, Conservative, Niagara West, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I think that a lot of these problems can be solved if we just release the documents, unredacted, so that we can actually see what was involved, where the money went and what the reasons were.

The member raises a good point. We all want to make sure that we are getting value for money. I think one way to solve that problem once and for all would be to bring those documents here before the House of Commons and make sure that we can get them off to the RCMP so that it can do its work. Once we do that, then we will make sure that it does not happen again as we move forward.

[Don Stewart, Conservative, Toronto—St. Paul's, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I have a fact: It is a $40-billion deficit. If we take 1% of that, that is still $400 million.

Is this a case of the government being unable to handle large numbers like $40 billion, let alone another $400 million?

[Dean Allison, Conservative, Niagara West, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I think that is always a challenge when we are talking to the public. These are extremely large numbers at the end of the day, and I would venture to say that maybe people understand $50,000 or $60,000, but $400 million is an awful lot of money.

Yes, regardless of the amount of money, the government has a problem with it.

[Anna Roberts, Conservative, King—Vaughan, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I rise today to discuss a matter of utmost importance: transparency and accountability.

Those are two words that the NDP-Liberal government's actions have proven it knows very little about, or it simply does not care.

The Cambridge Dictionary defines transparency as “A situation in which business and financial activities are done in an open way without secrets, so that people can trust that they are fair and honest.” It defines accountability as “A situation in which someone is responsible for things that happen and can give a satisfactory reason for them.”

In 2015, the Liberals ran on a platform of transparency and accountability. Where is it? After nine years, Canadians are still waiting for it, proving that the NDP-Liberal government is not worth the cost. Crime and corruption, along with scandals and controversies, have plagued the government from the very beginning.

We have had scandals like the SNC-Lavalin affair, the Aga Khan vacation, the India trip with Jaspal Atwal, the Jamaica vacation, the WE scandal, the blackface controversy, the Tofino controversy, cash-for-access fundraisers, the COVID-19 vaccine rollout, the handling of the Afghanistan crisis, “elbowgate”, Governor General Julie Payette's resignation, Queen Elizabeth's funeral, the Chinese election interference allegations, the use of the Emergencies Act, and now the corruption of the green slush fund.

When will these scandals, controversies and corruptions end? They have deeply tarnished our democracy and damaged our reputation on the global stage.

Only common-sense Conservatives, led by our leader, will continue to push for accountability, end the corruption and get answers for Canadians. Canadians have whiplash, and the NDP-Liberal government has been scandal after scandal, with a side of controversy and a splash of crime.

It feels like just yesterday we were debating the ArriveCAN debacle, and before Canadians had the time to process that scam, they were hit with the news of a billion-dollar green slush fund that failed to reduce emissions or support green technology. Instead, those funds went into the coffers of Liberal insiders. To add insult to injury, a government official, who was handpicked by the Prime Minister, confirmed that no action was taken after gross mismanagement and conflicts of interest were uncovered.

For Canadians who are not familiar with this topic, Sustainable Development Technology Canada, or SDTC, was established by the Government of Canada in 2001. It is a federal initiative aimed at funding and supporting the development and demonstration of clean technology.

It has two goals: to reduce greenhouse gas emissions by investing in innovative technologies and to support projects that contribute to environmental sustainability and economic growth. This initiative is meant to help Canadian businesses bring their clean technology to market, thereby boosting the economy and creating jobs. Sustainable Development Technology Canada provides grants and funding to companies working on projects that align with these goals, aiming to make a significant impact on Canada's environmental and economic landscape.

However, this fund comes under scrutiny, and for good reason. The Liberal green slush fund has been accused of giving grants to start-ups with ties to the senior management of Sustainable Development Technology Canada. The Auditor General found that Liberal appointees gave, and members should hold on to their pants now, $400 million to their own companies.

The Auditor General reviewed 226 projects and concluded that of those 226 projects, 186 were conflicted. If we do the math, that is 82%.

Leah Lawrence, the CEO of Sustainable Development Technology Canada, and the chair, Annette Verschuren, have both resigned following allegations that the money in the fund was used improperly.

The Liberals appointed a chair who was a friend of the Prime Minister and was found to have broken ethical—

[The Speaker, Liberal, Greg Fergus]

The hon. member will have approximately 13 and a half minutes minutes left on the clock when she resumes her debate on this question of privilege.

Having reached the expiry of the time provided for today's debate, the House will resume consideration of the privilege motion at the next sitting of the House.

RCMP Allegations Concerning Foreign Interference from the Government of India

[The Speaker, Liberal, Greg Fergus]

The House will now proceed to the consideration of a motion to adjourn the House for the purpose of discussing a specific and important matter requiring urgent consideration, namely the RCMP allegations concerning foreign interference from the Government of India.

[George Chahal, Liberal, Calgary Skyview, AB]

moved:

That this House do now adjourn.

Mr. Speaker, I will be sharing my time with my colleague from Vancouver South.

Today I rise to participate in this emergency debate to discuss the urgent issue of foreign interference in the lives of Canadians by the Government of India.

I am a proud Canadian with Indian ancestry. My parents immigrated as teenagers to the United Kingdom and came to Canada in 1972. I was born in Calgary, and Canada exceeded their expectations in every way. They had the opportunity to grow their family, find financial success and have the freedom to participate in the political process.

Indians are proud of their democracy, and the Indian diaspora has had a profound impact on global affairs and business. Over the last 75 years, India has been a leading example of strong democratic institutions, civil society and economic opportunity in the developing world. India has uplifted millions of its impoverished citizens while being an important bridge in global relations.

However, as governments change in democratic societies, so do their policy objectives. Today India is stronger economically and more aggressive and muscular in its strategic foreign policy objectives. This does not justify abandoning its values of upholding justice and the rule of law.

As Canadian members of Parliament, it is our duty to protect the safety and sovereignty of Canadians. Canada is guided by the rule of law, and we adhere to the Vienna Convention at all times. We expect India to uphold these same standards.

When our law enforcement and intelligence services began pursuing credible allegations that agents of the Government of India were directly involved in the killing of a Canadian citizen, Hardeep Singh Nijjar, on Canadian soil, we responded quickly. Our government conveyed its concerns to the Government of India and urged them to collaborate with us in shedding light on this critical issue.

Through the national task force and other investigative efforts, the RCMP has gathered evidence that reveals four serious concerns: Violent extremists are impacting both countries; there are links tying agents of the Government of India to homicides in Canada; organized crime is being used to create the perception of unsafe environments in targeting the South Asian community in Canada; and there is interference in our democratic processes.

These are not mere allegations, but serious findings from our national law enforcement that require immediate attention.

Investigations have uncovered that Indian diplomats and consular officials based in Canada have leveraged their official position to engage in clandestine activities, gathering information for the Government of India either directly or through their agents and other individuals who acted voluntarily or under coercion.

Evidence has also shown that a wide range of entities in Canada and abroad have been utilized by agents of the Government of India to collect information. Some of these individuals and businesses were coerced and threatened into co-operating with the Government of India, and the information collected was then used to target members of the South Asian community.

Recently, one of my constituents was extorted and his home was shot at. He shared with me that every day he woke up scared for the safety of his wife and children. He stayed away from his home and loved ones in hopes of keeping them safe. This is not the life he envisioned when he immigrated to this great country. Fortunately, thanks to the diligent work of the Calgary Police Service, the perpetrators were apprehended, but as we have seen, this is not always the outcome.

As a member of the Sikh faith, I know there have been allegations of Indian government interference since the Golden Temple attack in 1984 and accusations by the Indian government against the Sikh community since the Air India bombing in 1985. In the anti-Sikh riots, Indian government officials were complicit in the killing of thousands of Sikhs during that time. Mothers were raped in front of their children. Some were cut into pieces and burned alive by violent mobs. In many cases, the bodies were never recovered. However, 40 years later, families are still seeking justice, and the pain and trauma continue to resonate with the community today.

All Canadians, regardless of their faith or background, are guided by our legal framework. We have the opportunity to express ourselves. The Government of India may not like what many Canadians have to say, but just like India, we are a country governed by laws. Our police and intelligence agencies speaking publicly during an ongoing investigation highlights how serious this matter is.

The police have warned at least 12 Canadians of a pending threat. A foreign government is being accused of being complicit in the murder of three others. A clear, dangerous and unprecedented red line has been crossed. As Michael Duheme, the commissioner of the RCMP, has stated, an “extraordinary situation is compelling us to speak about what we have discovered in our multiple ongoing investigations into the involvement of agents of the Government of India in serious criminal activity in Canada.”

As shown by the RCMP, this is an extremely serious issue. An emergency debate is imperative so that we can come together to find solutions and address the concerns of those who feel targeted or unsafe.

Based on the information provided to Global Affairs Canada by the RCMP, we formally requested that India waive diplomatic immunity for six individuals based in Canada and co-operate in the investigation. This request was made so that these individuals could be questioned regarding the ongoing RCMP investigation into a number of violent incidents targeting members of the South Asian community here in Canada. Regrettably, India did not agree, and given the ongoing public safety concerns for Canadians, Canada issued notices of expulsion to six diplomats and consular officials. Following those notices, India also announced it would withdraw its officials.

To be clear, we are not seeking a diplomatic confrontation with India. Still, we will not sit quietly when agents of any country are linked to efforts to threaten, harass and even kill Canadians, full stop.

I urge my colleagues to view this not just as a national security issue or as a partisan issue, but as a matter of parliamentary responsibility. Parliament must address threats to national sovereignty with the seriousness they demand. It is our duty to ensure that all Canadians feel safe from foreign influence and intimidation.

Last September, when the Prime Minister stood in the House of Commons to speak about the killing of Hardeep Singh Nijjar, the Conservatives sidestepped the issue, claiming there was no evidence. Well, now we have the evidence. I would encourage the leader of the Conservative Party, the member for Carleton, to obtain a top secret clearance so he can be provided with the appropriate classified information to make informed decisions in reference to any allegations against parliamentarians in his party, just as all other parties have done.

We must stand united across party lines to protect Canada's national interests and the well-being of our citizens. The safety and security of our citizens, regardless of their background or beliefs, must remain our top priority, and we will not tolerate any form of intimidation, harassment or harmful targeting of communities or individuals in Canada. All Canadians deserve to live free from fear, and we must take decisive steps to ensure that.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Mr. Speaker, here is what is likely to happen tonight. The Conservatives are going to say that foreign interference is all the Liberals' fault. In response, the Liberals will say that it is all the Conservatives' fault.

My colleague just spoke about government accountability. On November 18, 2020, the House passed a motion calling on the government to create a foreign agent registry, and that did not happen until 2024. Can my colleague explain how his government acted responsibly after that motion was passed and why it waited four years to take action?

[George Chahal, Liberal, Calgary Skyview, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I want to thank the hon. member for Lac-Saint-Jean for the work he does at the foreign affairs committee.

I know that colleagues from across Parliament take these concerns seriously. That is why all of us have supported initiatives to protect Canadians. That is why we saw the Prime Minister stand up in the House of Commons, which is unprecedented, to show how serious the government is. It is also why the RCMP, last week, held a press conference to inform Canadians on the need for further self-care and that it is monitoring the situation appropriately.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Mr. Speaker, earlier today, the leader of the NDP, the member for Burnaby South, tried to introduce in the House a motion to create a standing committee on Canada-India relations, yet the unanimous consent that was required was denied by the Liberal Party. I am a bit confused given my Liberal colleague's speech today.

My question is pretty clear. We have serious concerns with the government's constant contradictions. If it is so concerned with India's foreign interference, why did it say no to the motion by the member for Burnaby South?

[George Chahal, Liberal, Calgary Skyview, AB]

Mr. Speaker, first of all, I did not deny any request. I support the study that was recommended at the SECU committee. I participated last Friday in the Standing Order 106(4) request that was brought forward. I also support the Hogue commission set up by the Government of Canada to look into foreign interference and will continue to do so.

[Elizabeth May, Green, Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC]

Mr. Speaker, my hon. colleague from Calgary Skyview put his finger on a really significant problem. I very much welcome the study undertaken by the public safety and national security standing committee, but the Hogue inquiry, by its terms of reference, is solely focused on foreign interference in our democratic processes within, for instance, elections. We know, as the member for Calgary Skyview just stated, that tonight's emergency debate was prompted by RCMP work, at a multidisciplinary level, that has revealed a criminal network within Canada that threatens people and has actually killed people, which is not within the scope of Madam Justice Hogue's inquiry. Is the Liberal Party or the government prepared to expand the mandate of that inquiry?

[George Chahal, Liberal, Calgary Skyview, AB]

Mr. Speaker, as I said earlier, I support the study at the SECU committee, and I look forward to having that conversation there with committee members.

I think we need to look at foreign influence in the Conservative Party's previous leadership races. Serious allegations have arisen. As we work together at committee, whether it is SECU or another committee, we can go into a further dialogue and understanding of the issues that are brought forward today.

[Sonia Sidhu, Liberal, Brampton South, ON]

Mr. Speaker, the RCMP clearly mentioned that it has obtained evidence linking agents of the Indian government to homicides and other acts of violence in Canada, including extortion. Can the member elaborate on our measures to address, stop and prevent any act of violence against Canadians by foreign agents so that Canadians can feel safe in their home country?

[George Chahal, Liberal, Calgary Skyview, AB]

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member for Brampton South brings forward a very important question.

For the RCMP to make a statement to Canadians acknowledges that there are serious threats. I am concerned about the threats that were brought forward, but I am happy to see the RCMP has stepped forward to work with police agencies across Canada to deal with these threats immediately.

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, President of the King’s Privy Council for Canada]

Mr. Speaker, we are moving into a world where it is becoming easier for foreign countries to suppress freedom beyond their own borders and extend repressive policies on the international stage, using social media and online censorship and, sadly, through transnational intimidation and murder. The tools and playbook that these countries are using are evolving, and how we deal with them must evolve as well.

I appreciate the opportunity today to speak to the very serious findings with respect to the involvement of agents of the Government of India in serious criminal activity on Canadian soil, disclosed by the RCMP last week.

The RCMP and national security officials made several attempts to work with the Government of India and Indian law enforcement counterparts on this matter, with the goal of putting an end to these criminal activities. They were repeatedly rebuffed in their attempts, including earlier this month, when the deputy commissioner, Mark Flynn; the national security and intelligence adviser, Nathalie Drouin; and the deputy minister of foreign affairs, David Morrison, met with officials from the Government of India. As such, the RCMP was compelled to move forward with the disclosure of the evidence it had gathered, which it did on October 14. I agree wholeheartedly with the Prime Minister, who said on October 14, “The government of India made a fundamental error in thinking that they could engage in supporting criminal activity against Canadians here on Canadian soil.”

Canadians will not accept this happening here, because Canada offers a promise: to live in a democracy where fundamental rights are a guarantee and where freedom, rules-based order and safety are paramount. We share the common values that we are stronger when we learn from each other and when we peacefully share different ideas, even when we challenge each other's perspectives. That is why so many people call Canada home. That is why my family chose to come here. It is clear that for the Government of India, freedom is subjective, the rules-based order is only an uncomfortable theory and safety is clearly in question.

The RCMP's investigation found that the Indian government and its agents have a vested interest in defiling the very institutions and freedoms that make Canada Canada, undermining our democracy, corralling our freedom and harming our citizens. Additionally, the RCMP and our security agencies will not tolerate acts of violence against Canadians for exercising their right to free speech, which is protected under the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. We will not tolerate this, and no one in the House should tolerate this. I would like to thank the RCMP and our security agencies for their thorough work in protecting Canadians.

It has been a difficult few months for Sikh Canadians. Our community has been seized by intimidation, extortion, coercion and other serious offences. They can rest assured that Canadians from outside this community are now paying attention. There is no justification for perpetrating violence against Canadians in Canada. This is not a partisan issue. This is not subjective. It is not fodder for two-bit slogans and diversion tactics. This is about freedom and the lives of Canadians that are at stake. The rule of law is under threat here.

Canadians rightly expect party leaders to have their security clearance, and this includes the leader of the Conservative Party of Canada, to know and understand the threats, foreign and domestic, even within their own party. A leader who does not stand up for all Canadians does not deserve to hold the highest office, and it is clear that the Conservative Party does not stand up for all Canadians. It was clear last week, when the Conservative leader did not release an official statement on his channels following the RCMP's revelations. A lack of a response only emboldens foreign governments to perpetuate disinformation and interference.

Every Canadian has the freedom to live their life in Canada without the fear of violence or coercion from a foreign entity. That does not come with an asterisk. Now, more than ever, it is crucial that Canada's principles are safeguarded, for dissent does not give leave to sanction murder in any civilized society. To attempt and actively pursue means of coercion, violence and extortion is the antithesis of a free, sovereign and civilized democracy.

I am proud that the majority of Canadians across the country have neither bowed to coercion nor to those in Canada who seek to facilitate it. In the weeks and months ahead, the RCMP will continue to do its important work, but this is a collective effort. If one sees something, they must say something by contacting the RCMP's national security information network. This would help us as we bring these individuals to justice.

I have said this before, but it bears repeating, especially as we grapple with the reality of extensive foreign interference in the lives of Canadians. Those who seek to undermine Canada's sovereignty will do and say things to delegitimize and undermine people's existence as a Canadian. We must not let them. Those who are Sikh are Canadian. Those who are Hindu are Canadian. Those who are Christian are Canadian. Those who are atheist are Canadian.

In whichever corner of this country, Canadians are free. Whatever Canadians look like, Canadians deserve safety. We are Canadian, and Canada will always fight to remain a free and open democracy.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Mr. Speaker, it is important, as we look at this issue, that we centre and make best efforts to understand the deep pain of many Canadians right now. There are many Canadians, and they may be from a diaspora, with their parents being here, or they themselves have been victims of some of the hate and violence we are seeing across the country.

In particular, it has been raised with me that the RSS is a violent extremist group. So many across the country right now, particularly Sikh Canadians, are calling for accountability and to have this organization registered as a terrorist organization. Would the member comment on the important need of designating RSS as a terrorist organization to help protect Canadians?