House of Commons Hansard #360 of the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was documents.

Topics

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeOrders of the Day

5:30 p.m.

Conservative

Rob Moore Conservative Fundy Royal, NB

Madam Speaker, this is a desperate attempt by a desperate government to try to talk about anything but what we are talking about today and to try to muzzle the leader of the official opposition. That is not going to happen. The leader of the official opposition is going to continue to speak out on issues that are important to Canadians, important to our national security and important to all of us.

What the member obviously did not want to talk about was what is found in the Auditor General's report, which is what we are debating here today in this motion from the House. I did not get a chance to mention the recording of a senior civil servant slamming the “outright incompetence” of the government, which gave $390 million in contracts inappropriately. That is what we are here talking about today. This Liberal-NDP coalition has undermined taxpayers and allowed this to continue, but we are not going to stand for it.

Canadians deserve parliamentarians who will stand up and be accountable for taxpayers' dollars, and that is what is going to happen here today, whether the hon. member wants it or not.

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeOrders of the Day

5:30 p.m.

NDP

Richard Cannings NDP South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC

Madam Speaker, my colleague talked a lot about the failures of the Liberal government, and there are many things I would agree with him on there, but he seemed to blame absolutely everything on the Liberals. I wonder if he could comment on the fact that people in his province blamed everything on the Conservative government in New Brunswick and soundly defeated it in the last election.

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeOrders of the Day

5:30 p.m.

Conservative

Rob Moore Conservative Fundy Royal, NB

Madam Speaker, I think the remarks I gave were fact-filled remarks. I pointed to the fact that SDTC had existed since 2001, but these conflicts began under the current government. There is an old expression I remember from when I was just a child: Sometimes the truth hurts. The truth of the matter is that these appointed individuals had conflicts. The individuals on the board's awarding of millions of dollars to their own companies was unprecedented. It did not happen under the previous Conservative government; it happened under this government. The change in approach happened under the Liberal government, and Canadians are demanding accountability from the government for the waste in the green slush fund.

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeOrders of the Day

5:35 p.m.

Conservative

Dan Mazier Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB

Madam Speaker, my colleague brought up the Liberals' benefiting themselves. We are talking about $58 million to 10 ineligible projects and $334 million, over 186 cases, to projects in which the board members had conflicts of interest.

When we think about that just benefiting Liberal insiders, what kind of repercussions would that have to the Canadian taxpayer?

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeOrders of the Day

5:35 p.m.

Conservative

Rob Moore Conservative Fundy Royal, NB

Madam Speaker, that is why, at the outset of my remarks, I mentioned the farmers and nurses in my riding, as well as the construction workers I saw going off to work this morning when I was on my way here. It is easy for us in the House to talk about hundreds of thousands of dollars misappropriated to an individual's company or $390 million over a number of cases where the money should not have been awarded because of a conflict of interest or ineligibility. However, where did that money come from? There is only one source for all this money, and that is the taxpayers whom we all represent.

Taxpayers work hard for their money. When they earn that money, they are taxed on it; when they spend that money, they are taxed on it. They deserve, from each and every one of us in this chamber, absolute accountability for the money that has been spent. However, accountability is what the government, at every turn, has sought to avoid under the green slush fund. It hurts the Liberals very badly that we are not going to stand for that. Conservatives are going to expose that every day.

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeOrders of the Day

5:35 p.m.

Liberal

Kevin Lamoureux Liberal Winnipeg North, MB

Madam Speaker, the government is being asked to gather information and hand it directly over to the RCMP. However, the RCMP has said that it does not like the Conservative tactic. The Office of the Auditor General of Canada has said that it does not like the tactic. The former law clerk of the House of Commons has said that he does not support the tactic. There is a genuine lack of respect for these institutions that is being driven by the leader of the Conservative Party.

However, whether it is those institutions or the issue of the security clearance, members of the Conservative Party caucus collectively put their head in the sand and ignore what Canadians have a right to know. Again, we have experts saying that the leader of the Conservative Party should get the security clearance. Why will those in the Conservative Party not be honest with Canadians and tell us why their leader would not qualify for security clearance, as I am beginning to believe is the real reason?

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeOrders of the Day

5:35 p.m.

Conservative

Rob Moore Conservative Fundy Royal, NB

Madam Speaker, that is an effort, on full display, to talk about anything but the millions of dollars wasted, misappropriated and sent to insiders under the green slush fund. These were not general insiders but Liberal insiders from the Liberal government, and it is the last thing they want to talk about.

This is not from me. It is the Auditor General of Canada who said that 20% of the projects were ineligible and $58 million was sent for ineligible projects. Out of 226 transactions examined for the audit, 82% were conflicted. The price tag of these conflicted transactions was $330 million. Members do not have to take the Conservatives' word for it; this is directly from the Auditor General, and that is an inconvenient truth for the government.

As we heard from the Liberal member opposite, Liberals want to speak about anything but what we have exposed here and what the Auditor General has exposed. Conservatives will not stop fighting for accountability for every taxpayer dollar that was spent and misappropriated by the government.

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeOrders of the Day

5:40 p.m.

Conservative

Andrew Scheer Conservative Regina—Qu'Appelle, SK

Madam Speaker, the Liberal member just complained about the tactic. However, does my friend believe that this production order would have been necessary if the government had done the right thing from day one? As soon as the whistle-blowers started raising the alarm about conflicts of interest and money being funnelled to Liberal insiders' own companies, the government should have called the police in right away instead of filibustering at committee and engaging in a cover-up. Would we even be here today if the government had done the right thing from the get-go?

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeOrders of the Day

5:40 p.m.

Conservative

Rob Moore Conservative Fundy Royal, NB

Madam Speaker, I gather that my colleague knows the answer to this question as well.

Of course, had the Liberals done the right thing at any stage of this debacle, this would not be necessary. However, doing the right thing and the Liberal government do not go hand in hand. Taxpayers' money has been wasted. All of this could have been avoided if the Liberals had done the right thing. However, that is why we are here today: They did not.

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeOrders of the Day

5:40 p.m.

Conservative

Andrew Scheer Conservative Regina—Qu'Appelle, SK

Madam Speaker, I should not say it is a pleasure to still be debating this privilege motion, because it is very unfortunate. We are now on a subamendment, which I would like to share my views on with the House today, but I should remind members of the government caucus that their refusal to comply with a lawful order of Parliament, with a lawful production order, is the reason the House is still debating this motion. The Liberals control 100% of what business will be debated in the House. All they have to do is comply with the production order, and then they can call whatever piece of legislation they want. However, we are still talking about this because they would rather grind Parliament to a halt for three or four weeks.

I think we started debating this motion on September 27. Was it September 27?

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeOrders of the Day

5:40 p.m.

An hon. member

It was the 26th.

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeOrders of the Day

5:40 p.m.

Conservative

Andrew Scheer Conservative Regina—Qu'Appelle, SK

Madam Speaker, I am off by a day, September 26. It is now October 28. They have paralyzed Parliament for a month rather than simply complying with the production order.

What is a production order? For those watching on CPAC who want to know the intricacies of this parliamentary word, I note that Parliament has the power to compel every government agency, institution or department to produce information. To do our jobs and make good laws and sound decisions, we have the ability collectively, when the House decides that it needs documents or wants to hear testimony from witnesses, to send for persons or papers. We are talking about papers right now.

We have uncovered, thanks to brave testimony from whistle-blowers who unveiled the depths of this corruption at great risk to their own careers, that Liberal-friendly insiders sitting on a board, who had control of a billion dollars' worth of taxpayers' money, got to determine who got millions of dollars' worth of government grants. What the Auditor General found out, thanks to the tipoff by this whistle-blower and thanks to my hard-working colleagues sitting on the committee that litigated this scandal, is that insiders were funnelling taxpayers' money into their own companies, which is outrageous. It was 400 million dollars' worth of corruption. The Auditor General found that $58 million went to 10 projects that were completely ineligible and had nothing to do with the mandate of the fund.

The fund was originally set up to help Canadian companies innovate and find solutions to environmental problems. The government would help underwrite some of the costs of innovation. The thinking was that, as a benefit, Canadians would perhaps get the commercialization of whatever innovative products came out of that. Then of course there was the environmental benefit of having cleaner ways to do things and make things, fewer emissions going into our atmosphere and fewer pollutants going into our lakes and rivers. The key point was that it had to have something to do with the environment.

The Auditor General found that 10 projects for $58 million were completely ineligible. That is a lot of money. Just to put that into context, the sponsorship scandal started off at about $40 million and people went to jail for it. There were criminal prosecutions.

I should point something out to my hon. colleague from Winnipeg, because I anticipate that he might get up. Every once in a while he likes to get up for questions and comments to make his views known and to ask Conservatives for their take on some of the things he is interested in. He will somehow paint the spectre that as long as Parliament is doing anything with this, there should be a complete, pristine cone of silence around any kind of investigation. I will point out to him that there was a lot of investigation into the sponsorship scandal. In fact, there was a full public inquiry, a judicial inquiry, called the Gomery commission.

I was in the House at the time. I remember the daily drip of details that came out, the sordid facts of Liberal insiders and even Liberal cabinet ministers at the time who were sitting around the table when a scheme was concocted. It was to take money that was supposed to protect our national unity and spread the message of a cohesive and strong country and to instead put it into the pockets of Liberal insiders. It was very similar.

The inquiry, the debate in Parliament and the litigation at committee did not prevent the RCMP from successfully prosecuting and convicting wrongdoers in that case. I just want the member to know that; it might save him some time when my speech is concluded. Hope springs eternal.

We found out more. I do not have it printed out, but I have it. One of my colleagues, the member for South Shore—St. Margarets, found out something today about the owner of Cycle Capital, which by the way is the same firm that the current Minister of Environment is involved in. A lot of people say there were Liberal insiders on the board and ask what the link is to Liberal ministers and the government of the day. Here it is: The Minister of Environment is a partial owner in the company called Cycle Capital.

Annette Verschuren's company was valued at $140 million when she was appointed to the Prime Minister's slush fund. After years of funnelling millions in taxpayers' money to companies she owns, Cycle Capital is now worth $600 million. This is exactly like GC Strategies. It is never better than when Liberals are in power, for government lobbyists and well-connected Liberal insiders. That is why Canadians should care about the issue.

Let us think back to when Canadians were locked down, the economy was suffering and many people were going through severe hardship. Think about all the devastating impacts that had on the lives of Canadians. All members know of people in their communities who lost everything. They lost their businesses, sometimes businesses that had been in the family for two, three, four generations. People had to sell their home, families were broken up and people had to move to other parts of the country to find work.

Some of the redirection of money, the misuse of taxpayers' money, was happening during that time, and the Prime Minister was saying that he was plunging the country into debt so Canadians did not have to go into debt. We should never forget that during that incredible time of hardship, Liberals got a Liberal. They found a way to enrich their friends and help their partisan supporters. That is the crux of the issue.

This could all end today. Every once in a while, I chat with a Liberal member in the hallways of this place, and they ask me how long the debate is going to go on for. The ball is in the Liberals' court. It will end on the day they respect the order of Parliament, the day they direct all their departments to comply with the lawful order of Parliament so the information can be handed to the RCMP and the RCMP can have all the information.

The Auditor General has the “follow the money trail” kind of thing. She has the documents about where money was paid and how decisions were made, and she understands the conflicts of interest. However, there is a lot of information behind the scenes.

A whistle-blower said that with respect to intent, when one has the information that is contained in the production order, they will see the intent. We believe that, at the very least, the RCMP should be able to access the documents so it can make the proper determination. It is a very important principle that we, as the guardians of taxpayers' money, are able to let it do that. That is why the motion is so important, and that is why it is so important for the government to comply with the order.

I should point out another argument that I anticipate. I hope I addressed an issue that the member might have gotten up on, but just to give him some rest and maybe to avoid having to answer another question about it, I will add this: He might also say that there is somehow some terrible precedent being set and that complying with the production order would somehow taint the investigation and create a terrible precedent for future cases. I should point out that some departments have complied with the order.

In fact, I believe the Office of the Privacy Commissioner has complied with the production order. Some departments did provide documents, so the Liberals cannot on the one hand claim they cannot comply with the order because doing so would taint the criminal investigation, which is some bizarre argument about violation of charter rights. I should point out that the charter is not there to protect the government; it is there to protect the people from the government.

The government cannot have it both ways. It cannot go ahead and say that it is somehow going to damage the integrity of the RCMP investigation while simultaneously some departments are complying with it. Those two arguments are mutually exclusive. Only one of those scenarios can be true.

We believe that some departments did the right thing and complied with it. Some departments decided to ignore a lawfully passed production order by the elected body of the people of Canada, whose money, by the way, was taken out of their pockets or off their paycheques to go into this fund that was then redirected to these Liberal insiders.

For that reason, I hope that today, after a month of Parliament not being able to proceed to other business because the government has chosen to paralyze Parliament rather than comply with this order, might be the day the Liberals all go home, reflect on what was said today and wake up tomorrow with a renewed sense of democracy and of proper stewardship of taxpayer money. That is my hope. It is not just a hope for myself and my Liberal colleagues, but for the Canadian people, so they can once again have faith and confidence in their institutions.

The member talks a lot about institutions and preserving the integrity of those institutions. How about preserving the integrity of the institution of Parliament? How about restoring the integrity of the concept that taxpayer money is used properly and that the government does not reach into the pockets of Canadians through the use of its monopoly on force? Nobody has the choice as to whether or not they pay their taxes. The government has that awesome power to force people to fork over when it decides to make them fork over. At the very least, what should accompany that is the money that is raised in that way only goes to what the government says it is supposed to go to and not to enriching the well-connected partisan friends of the Liberal Party of Canada.

We are almost at the end of today's session. Let us all take that hope home with us, reflect on that tonight and send positive energy or say prayers that we will all wake up tomorrow, or at least the Liberals will all wake up tomorrow, with a bit more wisdom, a little more respect for the Canadian taxpayers and comply with this production order so the RCMP can get to the bottom of this sordid affair.

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeOrders of the Day

5:50 p.m.

Winnipeg North Manitoba

Liberal

Kevin Lamoureux LiberalParliamentary Secretary to the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons

Madam Speaker, I know you know that I love being able to contribute in a positive way. Hopefully, the member opposite will understand why I would rather not take advice from the Conservatives. After all, what they are suggesting is that there is nothing wrong with the production of papers and that all we have to do is get the information and hand it directly over to the RCMP.

I have a choice. Do I listen to the commissioner of the RCMP or do I listen to the self-serving Conservative Party of Canada?

Here is a quote I would like to provide the member opposite from Mike Duheme, “There is significant risk that the Motion could be interpreted as a circumvention of normal investigative processes and Charter protections.” That is not me, the Liberal Party or the government saying it, but the RCMP commissioner.

That was reinforced in different ways by the Auditor General of Canada and by the former law clerk of the House of Commons. This is something the Conservative Party completely ignores, so when the member talks about a lack of respect for the institution, the Conservative members need to look in a mirror. This is no surprise, because he was a part of a government when his leader of the Conservative Party was the parliamentary secretary to the prime minister, that saw the only prime minister to be held in contempt of Parliament.

I wonder if the member opposite would share with us why the Conservatives believe they do not have to be responsible because they are in opposition, when I would argue there are some things they could do. They could show some goodwill and get the leader of the Conservative Party to agree to get the security clearance.

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeOrders of the Day

5:55 p.m.

Conservative

Andrew Scheer Conservative Regina—Qu'Appelle, SK

Madam Speaker, that last point was just a ridiculous red herring that has nothing to do with the debate at hand.

I want to go back to something my colleague from New Brunswick said in response to my question. Why are we here today debating this motion? The government party has a whole bunch of people who sit around the cabinet table. I am not sure how big cabinet has expanded to these days, but a lot of people sitting around the cabinet table were aware of what was going on. They did nothing. Not only did they do nothing; they tried to sweep it under the rug. The whistle-blower had to come to committee to testify because all of his efforts to get the due diligence and the proper oversight and scrutiny fell on deaf ears.

What can be so problematic with complying with a production order if several departments have already complied? Again, and I had hoped that I had pre-emptively addressed this, that is the hypocrisy of the member's position. When many departments have fully complied but many have not, then the argument cannot be made that any compliance with it will somehow taint the process.

At the end of the day, if we go back to that beginning point, had the Liberal government members done their due diligence, they would have said, “Wait a second. These people we appointed to the board were doing something wrong; they were funnelling money into their own companies and they placed themselves in conflict of interest.”

The members of the board had this scheme where one person would leave the room, the rest of them would vote in favour of the funding going to that person, and then that person would come back in the room and do it for their friends. If the Liberals had said, “Whoa, that does not fly. We are calling in the cops; we are handing them all the information”, we would not be here today. However, they did not, because those people on the board making those decisions and funnelling that money were their partisan friends and supporters. That is why we are still debating this motion.

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeOrders of the Day

5:55 p.m.

Bloc

Mario Simard Bloc Jonquière, QC

Madam Speaker, I almost miss the days when the member for Regina—Qu'Appelle was the leader of the Conservative Party. He was just talking about taking the time to reflect and have a bit more wisdom. I wonder if it takes wisdom to come to the House and say that nurses are no longer going to work because there is no heating at the hospitals, that teachers are no longer going to work because there is no heating at the schools, that people are applying for medical assistance in dying because they no longer have anything to eat and that electricians, by some miracle, are catching lightning to light up rooms. I wonder if that is wisdom.

I find it interesting that in the same breath the member for Regina—Qu'Appelle is talking about the need to have confidence in institutions. I get the impression that a political party that is obstructing the work of Parliament, that says it wants to trigger an election but is not giving itself the opportunity to do so and is trying to fuel the public's discontent with the government, is doing everything but strengthen public confidence in institutions.

I wonder what my colleague thinks of that.

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeOrders of the Day

5:55 p.m.

Conservative

Andrew Scheer Conservative Regina—Qu'Appelle, SK

Madam Speaker, we are not the ones who decided that Parliament had to debate this motion. It was the Speaker. The government is the one that decided not to abide by the Speaker's ruling. That is why we are continuing to debate this motion. It is not the Conservative Party's decision. It is the decision of the Liberal Party and the government.

Only the government can comply with the order of the House. Only the government can comply with the Speaker's ruling. No one in the Conservative caucus can call the head of a department to tell them to send all the documents to Parliament. Only the government can do that.

If we are here this evening debating this motion, it is because of the Liberal government's decision.

I will just say one other thing. Regarding the argument the member makes about all the hardship facing Canadians, I will point out that every time the government pretends it is trying to make life better for Canadians, it makes life worse. Let us take housing—

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeOrders of the Day

6 p.m.

The Assistant Deputy Speaker (Mrs. Alexandra Mendès) Alexandra Mendes

Questions and comments, the hon. member for Kitchener Centre.

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeOrders of the Day

6 p.m.

Green

Mike Morrice Green Kitchener Centre, ON

Madam Speaker, as I have shared many times throughout the day and in recent days, Greens supported the original opposition motion from the Conservatives to look into the mismanagement of SDTC, back in June. We support the terms of this motion as well.

The member for Regina—Qu'Appelle just finished sharing with the member from the Bloc Québécois that this is actually on the government side, that the Liberals are the ones continuing this debate.

I wonder if the member would test that theory. If only another Conservative would not get up after the member spoke, what might happen next? Can he tell us, if another Conservative did not speak after him, what would happen next?

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeOrders of the Day

6 p.m.

Conservative

Andrew Scheer Conservative Regina—Qu'Appelle, SK

Madam Speaker, I can tell the member what would not happen: The government would not comply with the production order.

It all comes back to the “who made who” type of thing, so let us go all the way back. Corruption happened at SDTC. Liberal insiders lined the pockets of their own companies, knowingly putting themselves in conflict of interest positions. One of the board members actually ran away from a Zoom call. She just darted off camera because she did not like some of the questions she was getting.

Government officials, including senior cabinet ministers, knew about this and did nothing. They did not call in the cops, did not try to get Canadians their money back and did not try to hold anybody accountable. They tried to sweep it under the rug.

As the details came out at committee, the Liberals continued to filibuster and stonewall to try to prevent Canadians and parliamentarians from knowing what happened. Our last recourse as the opposition was to use our powers as a collective to produce these papers. The Liberals continue to refuse to do that. That is the reason we are still debating this motion.

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeOrders of the Day

6 p.m.

NDP

Lindsay Mathyssen NDP London—Fanshawe, ON

Madam Speaker, I would like to hear a response to the question from the member for Kitchener Centre. It was an excellent question. What would happen if no other Conservative stood up and spoke to the subamendment to the amendment of the motion? It would be great if we could get an answer from the hon. member.

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeOrders of the Day

6 p.m.

Conservative

Andrew Scheer Conservative Regina—Qu'Appelle, SK

Madam Speaker, I already addressed that. What is important is what would not happen. The whole point of being here to get this information is to prosecute wrongdoers and try to get Canadians their tax money back.

I ran out of time to talk about what happens when the Liberal government tries to fix things. They only make things worse. If we look at housing, our leader had a fantastic announcement today about axing the tax on new homes—

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeOrders of the Day

6 p.m.

The Assistant Deputy Speaker (Mrs. Alexandra Mendès) Alexandra Mendes

Questions and comments, the hon. member for Sarnia—Lambton.

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeOrders of the Day

6 p.m.

Conservative

Marilyn Gladu Conservative Sarnia—Lambton, ON

Madam Speaker, one thing the opposition House leader mentioned was that this was another GC Strategies, but it might even be worse. He talked about Cycle Capital. One of the board members gave money to it and it more than tripled in value. I believe the Minister of Environment and Climate Change is a part owner of that company, and he, as a minister of the Crown, was part of the GIC that appointed the board member. If he is receiving a benefit, is that not in direct violation of section 119 of the Criminal Code, which says a holder of public office cannot take an action that benefits themselves or their family?

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeOrders of the Day

6 p.m.

Conservative

Andrew Scheer Conservative Regina—Qu'Appelle, SK

Madam Speaker, that is a fantastic and timely point made by my colleague. Perhaps she is on the right track to finding out the motivation as to why the Liberals are going to such great lengths to keep this hidden.

I know what this is like, as an opposition House Leader, as someone who was Speaker and as someone who sat in the government benches from 2006 to 2011. Being willing to sacrifice a month's worth of House time is an incredible price to pay to keep corruption hidden. There clearly must be something devastating in these documents that the government is willing to go to this great length to keep the information hidden.

I will just point out again that every single time the Liberals try to solve something, they make it worse. Housing costs have doubled under the government, and that is why—

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeOrders of the Day

6 p.m.

The Assistant Deputy Speaker (Mrs. Alexandra Mendès) Alexandra Mendes

Resuming debate, the hon. member for Northumberland—Peterborough South.