House of Commons Hansard #350 of the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was liberals.

Topics

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeOrders of the Day

12:50 p.m.

Conservative

Brad Vis Conservative Mission—Matsqui—Fraser Canyon, BC

Mr. Speaker, I agree that the NDP-Liberal coalition, which just fell apart, has made Parliament very dysfunctional. That is a fact.

The Auditor General report clearly outlined the immensity of the corruption we are dealing with here today. It is not every day that the Auditor General finds a prima facie case where the ethics laws of Canada were violated, up to $173 million. That is what we have before us today. Why this motion continues to be debated is that the government will not come clean on its obligation to meet the demands of Parliament to produce the necessary documents so that Canadians can know what went on behind closed doors between Liberal friends and insiders.

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeOrders of the Day

12:50 p.m.

NDP

Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON

Mr. Speaker, I appreciated the intervention by my colleague, who I miss on the industry committee. It is important that he was part of the SDTC's original examination. I will give him credit for that.

I want to ask him about some of the problems we have with the appointment processes and transparency. Will the Conservative Party support changing the current practice of making these appointments? Bruce Carson, who was appointed by Stephen Harper, was caught and charged for influence peddling. There was Arthur Porter, who Prime Minister Harper also appointed. He actually fled to Panama and sadly passed away there while awaiting extradition. There has been a litany of appointments, by both the Liberals and the Conservatives, for which we still see no transparency.

Does the member agree that these documents and the reason people are appointed should be more transparent and that the documents should not be redacted so much? Then all of Parliament and Canada could see that someone will work on behalf of the taxpayers and government when they are appointed by a person in power, like the Prime Minister.

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeOrders of the Day

12:50 p.m.

Conservative

Brad Vis Conservative Mission—Matsqui—Fraser Canyon, BC

Mr. Speaker, I thank the member from Windsor for his question related to appointments. Indeed, irrespective of government, I think there can be more transparency in the way we appoint individuals to boards that are funded by the Government of Canada. That is a very fair question.

The New Democratic Party has a very serious decision to make today. Will it stand with the government and support its obfuscation of Parliament or stand with Canadians and demand for transparency?

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeOrders of the Day

12:50 p.m.

Conservative

Philip Lawrence Conservative Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON

Mr. Speaker, I am glad to have the member at the transport committee.

He has talked a lot about the supremacy of Parliament. To me, Parliament in itself is not special; it is special because it represents the people. Does he believe that people are entitled to find out what happened to their money?

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeOrders of the Day

12:50 p.m.

Conservative

Brad Vis Conservative Mission—Matsqui—Fraser Canyon, BC

Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank my hon. colleague for those kind words.

I think he is raising a very important question. If Parliament cannot fulfill its constitutional obligation to demand papers and receive such papers, Canadians will lose trust in the House of Commons. A lot of Canadians across the country are feeling disillusioned by our institutions. That is because this institution is being prevented from doing its job.

Canadians work so hard, but business insolvencies right now are up 50% year over year. We have seen a record loss of businesses in our country. When businesses that have worked hard to stay afloat and create jobs see this institution throwing around hundreds of millions of dollars and not getting to the bottom of it, they question what is really going on in Ottawa.

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeOrders of the Day

12:55 p.m.

NDP

Taylor Bachrach NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC

Mr. Speaker, this is an interesting debate for a Monday. Having just flown across the country and landed in the midst of this, I am trying to understand the Conservative logic. It reminds me of an eight-year-old student asking his teacher if he can go to the washroom and then standing there for 10 minutes with his legs crossed, hopping up and down reiterating how badly he needs to go to the washroom.

We plan to vote in favour of the motion. The Bloc Québécois plans to vote in favour of the motion. That represents a majority of the House, so immediately, we could vote on the motion and send it to committee. After all, it calls for the committee to do the work of getting to the bottom of this very important issue on behalf of Canadians. The irony is that the member is not only obstructing the business of the House, but obstructing the work of the committee that the motion itself calls for.

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeOrders of the Day

12:55 p.m.

Conservative

Brad Vis Conservative Mission—Matsqui—Fraser Canyon, BC

Mr. Speaker, I would refer back to the original motion from June, which called for the unredacted documents to be provided to the House of Commons. Those documents have yet to be provided. That is why, at the beginning of my speech, I referenced the gravity of what we are dealing with here today. I was very disturbed by the government House leader, who used the Charter of Rights to move us away from what is at stake, which is the ability of Parliament to do its job for Canadians.

We want the documents today. When the government is willing to provide those documents, we will be able to move on with the other important matters of this House that we all want to deal with. That is the issue at hand.

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeOrders of the Day

12:55 p.m.

Conservative

Philip Lawrence Conservative Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON

Mr. Speaker, it is my privilege to join the debate today.

I will start with the question raised by the NDP member from British Columbia. The whole idea of Parliament is that this is supposed to be a chamber of debate, of conversation. Sometimes they digress, I agree, and I have certainly been in the House for some very long digressions, but what comes out of that can sometimes be quite impressive and actually miraculous.

From having the ideas of different parties, different perspectives and individual backgrounds, all coming together in this wonderful place we call Parliament, we sometimes get to the most amazing conclusions. It is, as Winston Churchill said, the best worst system, but it is certainly our system, and it is the one we have chosen, so I will never apologize for debating an issue. Sometimes I do not like what I hear, but that is okay. When I am being heckled, sometimes I do not enjoy what I am hearing, but even that is okay. That is our right. I am proud to be in a country where we have freedom of speech and where the people have representatives here in Ottawa to defend their interests.

Let us go back in time because I think it is important that we put context around this debate today. We have had nine years, as much as the government members sometimes like to create the impression that they just walked into town, all of these problems already existed, and they are here to save it. Every new Parliament is a complete ignoring of all the previous issues. They will say that those were because of some other guys, that those were because of Stephen Harper. They will say that they did this and they did that. Even nine years later, we still do not see an acknowledgement. I do not think I have once heard members from the other side say that they got something wrong, but they have certainly gotten a lot wrong.

Let us look at the background that this latest Liberal scandal falls against. It was not long into the government's mandate when we already saw the fall from sunny ways. I am not going to cover all the scandals because I only have 20 minutes, and that would take hours and hours to discuss, but I will go over some of them because I think it is important. Not long after the mandate, there was the vacation that the Prime Minister took. It was hundreds of thousands of dollars. It was called the Aga Khan vacation. He claimed he was a friend. However, the ethics commissioner disagreed, and that was his first ethics violation, so we are starting there.

Sunny ways were looking a little dim at that point, but we will continue on. There is many to pick from, but I would say one of the most challenging scandals for the government was the SNC-Lavalin affair. We will hear, and I think this is particularly enlightening in this debate, the other side say that the Conservatives are going to trample judicial independence and the bureaucracy. No, we are not. We are simply asking for documents to be handed over to the RCMP in an ongoing investigation. That does not seem like the trampling of anything.

What was a trampling of the independence of the judiciary, as well as of the bureaucracy, was what was alleged to have happened in the SNC-Lavalin case. The Prime Minister, and if he did not do it, he came very close it, pushed on his then attorney general, Jody Wilson-Raybould. She, of course, had to resign to avoid this interference with the independence of the judiciary. He was looking for a deferred prosecution agreement, or a get-out-of-jail-free card, in layman's terms, for his friends at SNC-Lavalin.

There we had an actual case of interfering with the independence of the judiciary. This is not that. We have yet another scandal on this journey of corruption, so we will continue down the Liberals' journey of corruption, which has gone on over nine years. Hopefully we will be seeing the end of it very soon. The next one is really not that far off from the SNC-Lavalin scandal.

We would figure that maybe the Liberals would learn. As a small digression, I have the best kids in the world, but, as a 10-year-old and an eight-year-old, they still go off the rails occasionally. I tell them that mistakes are okay, but repeated mistakes are not. They need to learn from these things in life. Clearly, the government is so dedicated to corruption that it will keep going.

Next is the WE Charity scandal. Who can forget this notorious chapter of the Liberal government? We can argue it involved $500 billion or a trillion dollars, depending on the way we look at the numbers, but once again, Liberal insiders were getting rich with Canadian taxpayers' money. WE is an organization that is now, thanks to reporting in the media and the great work of some Conservative members on the ethics committee, troubled, at best. I will put it that way. Liberal insiders got half a trillion dollars of Canadian taxpayers' hard-earned money, and we do not know what it was for. Maybe it was to build another well in Africa or just to rename one again and again. This is the organization that the government sought to give billions of dollars to.

Then there is the “other Randy” affair, a more recent one. I have skipped over a bunch, such as clam scam and a number of other scams. I could go on, but I want to get closer to the present. We have the “other Randy” affair, which is unbelievable to me. I am shocked that this has not progressed into an RCMP investigation. If it has, I am not aware of it. A sitting member of cabinet directed his business in a cabinet meeting. This is unbelievable.

Literally millions of dollars were flowing out the door to Liberal insiders.

Then there is one of my personal favourites: arrive scam. For arrive scam, there were IT guys who said they could probably have created the app for $250,000, but let us be generous and say it would have cost $1 million or $2 million. No, it cost the government $60 million, and we do not even know if that is the full extent. The Auditor General said that the bookkeeping was so bad that she could not even say for sure the amount of resources that were dedicated to this disaster.

Let us go SDTC, which is incredibly problematic. For those not following along at home, the SDTC board was to give out millions of dollars of taxpayers' money. It was funded, I believe, in the most recent funding agreement, with a billion dollars to help the environment, to fight climate change and to modernize our economy. It is important to put a little context around that. Our economy is in dire straits. Our GDP per capita has not grown over the last 10 years. There are a number of issues, most of which funnel back to the Liberal government, as to why we are on such a terrible trajectory and our growth is the worst in the OECD. There is a lack of capital that the government has smothered with overtaxation and over-regulation, but one thing that a lot of folks will point to is Canada's troubling record on innovation.

We produce some of the greatest ideas in the world, and I say “ideas” for a reason. I do not mean intellectual property because, oftentimes, before an idea makes the jump from someone waking up in the middle of the night saying eureka and drawing it on a napkin to it becoming a commercial idea, it has already left the country.

The idea of the organization of Sustainable Development Technology Canada was not in itself a bad one. It was the execution that was bad. It could have had great utility if that capital had been directed to some of the great minds currently in Canada, those produced by our wonderful universities. It could have been directed to our companies and our businesses, which could have had a real lift for the economy. It could have solved one of our productivity issues, in fact, one of our main productivity issues, which is a lack of innovation in our economy. Instead, it was funnelled outside of our economy.

What happened? For those people who are not aware, there is a lot of specific information. If we want to really boil this down, SDTC board's primary job was to allocate capital. That is a fancy term, too. Its job was to take the billion dollars it was getting from the federal government and give it to individuals who would grow our economy by promoting innovation with that capital that was provided to them, which businesses need to start. Oftentimes, especially with tech companies, they can be capital intensive, and it can be years until there is a product. By having that funding operation, it could have added real value.

Let us go over what the Auditor General found to have happened instead. There was up to $390 million that was misspent. I think it is important to categorize the ways that the money was misspent because there was quite a variety. One was ineligibility. Members can imagine that the government gave this billion dollars to SDTC ,and it had a rule book about how the money was to be spent. That makes sense. What did SDTC do with that? It ignored it. Just in the sample that the Auditor General looked at in her report, there were 10 separate enterprises that did not fit the criteria eligibility, but they still got nearly 60 million dollars' worth of projects. That was $60 million where the board members said that they knew what they were supposed to do, as they had it in writing right in front of them, but that they were not going to give that $60 million to the businesses that fit the criteria. Instead, they picked other businesses. I do not think the Auditor General gave the reason for that, but perhaps we can draw our own conclusions.

We have other cases where there was a conflict of interest. A conflict of interest means that someone has an interest in a decision that is being made. A director may have ownership or their spouse may have ownership. That is a normal thing. Tens of millions of dollars went out the door in cases with a conflict of interest. Someone declared a conflict of interest, and the board went through the criteria, but then awarded the money anyway. There were also tens of millions of dollars misspent where they just simply did not follow or abide by their conflict of interest rules. There were hundreds of millions of dollars that left taxpayers' hands to go to, in some cases, Liberal insiders. That is extremely troubling.

Members can look at the scandal that is going on now. It has taken years, by the way, to make its way through, thanks to the great work of our Conservative members at the ethics committee. What will its impact be and where are we right now? The RCMP has come out and said that there is an ongoing investigation. The Conservative Party, supported by other opposition parties, brought forward a motion to produce documents. Unfortunately, we received from the government an incomplete set of documents.

We received piecemeal, redacted documents that did not meet Parliament's criteria. That is troubling not just on the substance of this issue but also on a broader impact as well. Parliament, in itself, is not special. I am not special. The other 337 members are not special. The people who we support and represent are special. Each one of us represents 100,000 people combined of the over 37 million Canadians. Their money was taken.

At the end of the day, over a billion dollars was taken out of the pockets of Canadians. When we look at that, it is Canadians handing over a thousand million dollars. That money could have gone to helping and feeding their families. It is money that could have gone to a down payment on a mortgage or to help individuals meet their rent. That money could have gone to so many good causes.

Instead, the government, as the rightful authority, took the money. However, when government takes money, there is a real importance to accounting for it to the rightful owners, the Canadian people. Those dollars were not generated in Ottawa. They were taken from towns like Colborne in Ontario, from places like Skeena—Bulkley Valley, Toronto and Montreal, and all brought to Ottawa. Sometimes that money is spent very well, like in supporting our women and men in the armed forces, which the Liberal government has woefully neglected. However, when the Liberal government takes a billion dollars and awards it to its friends, it is hurting the economy, Canadian people and those most vulnerable in our communities.

Last, but certainly not least, the government is undermining the authority and the legitimacy of our democratic institutions. When people see scandal after scandal, at the same point when they are paying more money to Ottawa than at any point in the history of our country, they are increasingly wondering what they are getting for those dollars. They know how hard it is to earn. They know that with the Liberal government's record cost of living crisis, record increases in interest rates and inflation, they are having a harder time.

Then to add insult to injury, the government, which is taking more money than ever before in Canadian history and just lighting it on fire, in addition to taking all that money is also running out the credit card. Not only will our families have to pay the Liberal government debt back, our children, grandchildren and great-grandchildren will have to pay this debt back. What will the government have to show for it, other than a few Liberal insiders getting rich?

It absolutely makes my blood boil when the Liberal government has the audacity to say that Conservatives, by calling for accountability and for the government to not be corrupt, are somehow trampling the Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeOrders of the Day

1:15 p.m.

Winnipeg North Manitoba

Liberal

Kevin Lamoureux LiberalParliamentary Secretary to the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons

Mr. Speaker, virtually from day one, the Conservatives have done nothing but focus on character assassination, particularly with respect to the Prime Minister.

I understand the game the members in the Conservative Party are playing. They talk about Liberal insiders. What they do not say is that Annette Verschuren was an adviser to Brian Mulroney, and she was appointed to a position with Stephen Harper.

The Conservatives continue on, but let us just say what it is: It is an arm's-length organization that made very serious mistakes, which caused it to shut down and the board to be replaced. The moment the government found out about it actions were taken to resolve the issue and ensure that taxpayers were being protected. That is the reality.

However, the Conservatives want to play—

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeOrders of the Day

1:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Deputy Speaker Conservative Chris d'Entremont

Order, please. There is a bit of crosstalk going on and I want to ensure we keep that to a minimum.

The parliamentary secretary was almost done with this question.

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeOrders of the Day

1:15 p.m.

Liberal

Kevin Lamoureux Liberal Winnipeg North, MB

Mr. Speaker, the Conservatives are playing a game here. That is what this all about. It is not about Canadians, it is about the agenda of the Conservative Party, which is nothing more than a thirst for power.

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeOrders of the Day

1:15 p.m.

Conservative

Philip Lawrence Conservative Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON

Mr. Speaker, I will be extremely generous and hope that member simply does not understand how government works. Let me explain what happened. SDTC and the Government of Canada entered into an agreement, where the Government of Canada would give a billion dollars for having those dollars go to technology companies. It is the Government of Canada's responsibility to manage that contract and to design the contract in that way. The buck stops with the Liberals, and they need to take account for it.

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeOrders of the Day

1:15 p.m.

Bloc

Denis Trudel Bloc Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC

Mr. Speaker, I have been listening to the debates for a while now, and I am feeling somewhat uneasy. I am wondering whether my colleague feels the same way.

The Bloc Québécois is obviously in favour of the motion. As we have said, the government must be held accountable, especially when it comes to corruption. We agree on that, and it has been stated repeatedly this morning.

However, I am uncomfortable with holding up the government's work for so long when there are so many incredibly important issues at stake. We have often talked about the housing crisis. There is the chronic underfunding of health care. There are long lines at hospitals in Quebec, and the solution is here in Ottawa. There is the fight against climate change. There are public finances. There are the seniors we have been talking about. There are so many topics we could be talking about, but everything is at a standstill because of this one debate.

I am not really okay with this. Does my colleague share my unease?

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeOrders of the Day

October 7th, 2024 / 1:15 p.m.

Conservative

Philip Lawrence Conservative Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON

Mr. Speaker, the issue is this. I believe, and I would hope my colleagues all believe it too, the government has failed. The government will not make anything better. If the nine years have not proved that, then I do not know what will. The NDP and the Bloc need to join us and call for a carbon tax election so we can get these problems solved.

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeOrders of the Day

1:20 p.m.

NDP

Taylor Bachrach NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC

Mr. Speaker, I listened intently to the speech of my friend from Northumberland—Peterborough South. Near the beginning, I think he was arguing that the importance of having these long-drawn-out filibuster days of debate is that sometimes miraculous things happen in the course of debate. I am wondering whether that miracle happened during his 20-minute speech or how I would know it happened, because I did not feel anything.

Will the miracle come in the questions and comments period, or did the miracle just not happen and I will have to wait until his colleagues get up later in the day for that miraculous thing to happen so we can send this to committee, which, after all, is the point of the motion?

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeOrders of the Day

1:20 p.m.

Conservative

Philip Lawrence Conservative Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON

Mr. Speaker, the miracle could happen right now. Members could stand behind the NDP leader and say that they are actually ripping up this agreement and are voting non-confidence, but they will not, because this is a House of hypocrites.

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeOrders of the Day

1:20 p.m.

Liberal

Kevin Lamoureux Liberal Winnipeg North, MB

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. I can assure the member that members of the Liberal Party, the Bloc and the NDP—

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeOrders of the Day

1:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Deputy Speaker Conservative Chris d'Entremont

I will simply ask the hon. member for Northumberland—Peterborough South to withdraw that remark.

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeOrders of the Day

1:20 p.m.

Conservative

Philip Lawrence Conservative Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON

Mr. Speaker, I withdraw it.

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeOrders of the Day

1:20 p.m.

Conservative

Warren Steinley Conservative Regina—Lewvan, SK

Mr. Speaker, it is a pleasure to rise and ask my friend a question.

It is funny how history repeats itself. As a young man, I wrote a paper in university called “Have the Liberals Lost the Legitimacy to Govern?” This paper was about the ad scam scandal that eventually took down the Chrétien-Martin government. As my friend from Regina—Qu'Appelle says, Liberals are going to liberal.

The more we go through this, the more we see history repeating itself, except on a much larger scale. We are talking about $300 million. The NDP and the Bloc members are saying that this does not matter. We would love to see the opposition come forward and hold the Liberal government to account on how Canadians are getting poorer and their friends are getting richer.

Do the Liberals continuously repeat this cycle? How much deeper will this go to see how many people got rich, and why?

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeOrders of the Day

1:20 p.m.

Conservative

Philip Lawrence Conservative Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON

Mr. Speaker, it is clear that we have scandal after scandal. I rattled off half a dozen significant scandals, where billions and billions of dollars were spent. Ultimately, I can jest a bit about that, but it is deadly serious. A couple of things are going to happen, such as billions of dollars not going to our social safety network. It is billions of dollars that are not going to health care. It is billions of dollars that continue to undermine our economy through overtaxation and over-regulation. That means there will be children who do not reach their potential because the government decided to spend more money on Liberal insiders than it did on health transfers.

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeOrders of the Day

1:20 p.m.

Bloc

Kristina Michaud Bloc Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to rise in the House today. I will not hide the fact that I wish we were talking about something else, like other bills already before the House. As my colleague from Longueuil—Saint-Hubert just pointed out, a lot of topics need our attention right now. We could be debating housing or the fight against climate change, which is something we do not talk about often enough in this place. We are in a climate crisis, and I do not think we are doing enough about it.

Just this morning, I read in a press review that the government is still investing in research for small modular reactors. However, we know very well that the best way forward would be to invest in renewable energy sources, such as wind, hydro and solar power, not in forms of energy that continue to harm the planet. I think it is a bit of a waste of time to debate matters like this.

I think that, so far, the House has been seized with this issue for roughly 15 hours. I am not saying that it is not important. Every question of privilege is important, usually. However, the Conservative Party seems to be using it as a tactic to obstruct the work of the House and the study of certain bills that have been introduced in the House. I share the same sense of unease as my colleague from Longueuil—Saint‑Hubert, who said earlier that there are so many other things we could be discussing. I want that to be perfectly clear to our constituents who may be watching our debates right now. They expect us, their elected members, to debate and pass bills on matters that concern them and that may help them in their daily lives. That is why I think this is a shame.

However, I will do the Conservatives the courtesy of playing along and talking about the issue that we have been seized with since Friday. I want to reiterate what was said by some of my colleagues and by the leader of the Bloc Québécois, who stated our position on this issue. I want to go over a few facts, if I may. I did say I feel as though we are wasting our time, but I want everyone to understand that the question of privilege that is before us today is legitimate. When Parliament orders the government to produce documents, the House has spoken and the government needs to respect that. What is the point of the House of Commons if its will is not respected? This is a legitimate question of privilege, and Parliament's authority to demand documents is clearly established.

I want to go over a few facts. On June 10, the House adopted a motion moved by the Conservative Party that ordered “the government, Sustainable Development Technology Canada (SDTC) and the Auditor General of Canada each to deposit with the Law Clerk and Parliamentary Counsel, within 14 days of the adoption of this order, the following documents” and that those documents be handed over to the RCMP.

A little while later, we realized that the documents in question had never been tabled in the House. In the opinion of the Bloc Québécois, and definitely in the opinion of the Conservative Party, the failure to table these documents is a breach of privilege. That is what I gathered from their question of privilege.

One thing, however, has not been mentioned enough. I think that the responsible thing to do is to exempt the Auditor General from being obliged to hand over the documents. After all, she is not the custodian of the government's documents. We would prefer to put more responsibility on the government and less on the Auditor General.

Then, on September 26, the Speaker of the House ruled that the question of privilege concerning these documents, about the government and Sustainable Development Technology Canada, was a prima facie case of privilege. That is why the Conservative Party now wants to refer the matter to the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs.

Like I said, it is a legitimate question, but let us not forget that this new agenda is considerably affecting the House's legislative agenda. I will say it again because I think it is important for people to understand this. I think it is a shame that this type of tactic is being used. I am afraid that the Conservative Party is taking advantage of this opportunity to monopolize the work of the House. That way, they can prove that Parliament has come to a standstill, that we are no longer able to move forward on issues, that nothing is working anymore and that an election must be called. Maybe that is part of their strategy.

I heard my Conservative colleague who spoke just before me say that the NDP and the Bloc Québécois need to join the Conservatives and call for a carbon tax election. We do not need to go very far from Parliament. We can just cross the river to Quebec and ask people there if they want a carbon tax election. I am not sure many people will say yes. That does not seem to be a priority for Quebeckers right now. Quebeckers have many other concerns besides that one. I am not saying that the Bloc Québécois is not ready for an election, but it should be about serious issues.

What the Bloc Québécois has done is give the government an opportunity to deliver for Quebeckers. The Prime Minister often says he wants to deliver for Canadians. We have given him an opportunity to truly deliver results, to make things better for Quebeckers. We have given him an opportunity to make things better not only for seniors in Quebec, but for seniors across Canada. If the government does not move forward on this file, we will have a good reason to bring it down, with the support of the other opposition parties, obviously. However, we are not going to bring down the government just because somebody woke up one morning and decided they wanted to become prime minister. That is not how it works. There need to be good reasons to bring down a government.

Let us come back to the issue before us. Parliament obviously has the power to compel documents from the government. That has been clearly established. The only limitation on the House's ability to compel the government to produce whatever information it deems necessary is the good judgment of the House, not the goodwill of the government. The government should have no reason not to produce the documents as demanded by the House. In June, the House was clear. It ordered the government to produce this series of documents. There may have been a lot of documents, and that may be what prevented the government from producing them, but the order was perfectly clear. The government did not respect it, and that is a breach of the House's privilege. That is what we need to address today. We want the Chair to examine this issue.

As I said earlier, the Bloc Québécois leader raised another point. The Conservative Party is taking advantage of this issue to go after the Auditor General. One thing must be perfectly clear: This is not about the Auditor General. She is a highly respected officer of Parliament. As elected officials, far from putting her between a rock and a hard place, our duty is to protect her from the government. The documents she had access to were meant for her performance audit and, we would point out, they belong to the government. The government's refusal to obey an order of the House has put the Auditor General in a difficult situation, to say the least. Obviously, the government is the one at fault. It is up to the government to hand over these documents to the House. The government alone, not the Auditor General, is the one violating the privilege of this House.

This is a serious issue, so we urge parliamentarians to treat it as such. I do not think that has been the guiding principle in the debates so far. In particular, I think it is important to avoid partisanship and sweeping accusations. We know that there may be good reason to think that Sustainable Development Technology Canada, or SDTC, failed in its duty. There may be good reason to ask some serious questions about what went on. If there is any reason to believe that wrongdoing has occurred, then it should be investigated. At that point, it is not up to us to decide whether to move forward on this issue. If the RCMP wants to receive documents, great. It may not need the documents to conduct this type of investigation. When there is evidence of corruption, when it looks like taxpayers' money has been used dishonestly, this obviously needs to be investigated.

There is not much more to say on this subject. However, I can provide more detail about the mandate of Sustainable Development Technology Canada, or SDTC.

It is an independent foundation created in 2001. Its mission is to support the growth and development of pre-commercial clean technology companies. It reports to the minister responsible for Innovation, Science and Economic Development Canada. Whistle-blowers started sounding the alarm in November 2022. They had concerns about how the foundation was managing public funds and human resources. They approached the Office of the Auditor General of Canada, which advised them to contact the Privy Council Office.

The Privy Council Office then received a 300-page document from the whistle-blower group, laying out allegations dating back to February 2022. I want to go over a few dates. In October 2023, the Minister of Innovation, Science and Industry stated that he was going to commission the firm Raymond Chabot Grant Thornton to prepare a fact-finding report.

The fact-finding report identified a number of instances in which SDTC was not in full compliance with the contribution agreement made with the Department of Industry. As a result, the department sent SDTC an action plan to address the issues identified in the report and indicated that the action plan needed to be implemented by December 31, 2023. The department also requested the suspension of funding for all new projects until the action plan was implemented.

On November 1, 2023, the Office of the Auditor General of Canada announced that it would be conducting an audit on how SDTC was financing sustainable development technologies within the Department of Industry's portfolio. The Auditor General published that audit on June 4.

In short, here is what we learned from the Auditor General's report. The Auditor General found that there were serious governance issues with the fund. That was quite clear. The main problems were the mismanagement of conflicts of interest and a lack of clarity surrounding the criteria for awarding grants. As I was awkwardly trying to say earlier, we can see that there has been wrongdoing here. The responsible thing to do is to get to the bottom of things.

That said, the issue that concerns us now is as follows: When Parliament is seized of a matter like this and asks for documents to be tabled, the least the government can do is respect the will of the House and table those documents. It does not get any simpler than that.

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeOrders of the Day

1:35 p.m.

Liberal

Brenda Shanahan Liberal Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC

Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank my colleague from Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, because it was really a pleasure to hear someone give the House such a great summary of the problem. I am very grateful that she is taking the subject so seriously.

If I understand correctly, the motion asks that this whole issue be referred to the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs. I would like my colleague to comment on that. Does she think we should wrap up debate here and refer the matter to committee?

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeOrders of the Day

1:35 p.m.

Bloc

Kristina Michaud Bloc Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC

Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague for her kind words. I ended my speech by saying that the Auditor General was quite clear and that it appears there has been some serious wrongdoing. I did not go over the entire chronology of events, but I know that several people involved in this matter have already appeared before certain House of Commons committees, including the Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics.

The Conservative Party's motion is quite clear, calling for the matter to be referred to the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs. This might be less about the wrongdoing itself and more about forcing the government to produce the documents.

The member said she was pleased that I described the situation so well, but still, it is her government that is implicated in this. I cannot help but wonder why the government is refusing to table these documents in the House of Commons. Is that what the Conservative Party wants to address at the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs? Is it more about the tabling of documents when the House requires it? Maybe that needs to be clarified. In any case, as I said earlier, we must get to the bottom of this.

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeOrders of the Day

1:35 p.m.

Conservative

Anna Roberts Conservative King—Vaughan, ON

Mr. Speaker, out of curiosity, if my colleague were the owner of a company, would she simply ignore fraud and unethical behaviour or launch an immediate investigation to get to the root of the problem, so it could be addressed and stopped?