House of Commons Hansard #351 of the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was documents.

Topics

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeOrders Of The Day

3:45 p.m.

Bloc

Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné Bloc Terrebonne, QC

Madam Speaker, first of all, what is happening in the House today has happened before. Mr. Harper refused to provide documents about the war in Afghanistan and he lost. Ultimately, he had to hand them over. We hope that the same situation will not persist as long, and that we will get the Liberal Party's documents.

Second, as I mentioned in my speech, this is not just about the primacy of Parliament. Even if the government had a majority, it would be important that it bring the documents to the House. Other questions remain unanswered and are beyond the scope of what the Auditor General of Canada is able to obtain under the Auditor General Act. It is important for this Parliament to address these issues.

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeOrders Of The Day

3:45 p.m.

NDP

Blake Desjarlais NDP Edmonton Griesbach, AB

Madam Speaker, I want to thank my hon. colleague for her tremendous work at the public accounts committee, where this issue arose. I want to ask the member directly about this serious issue when it comes to the financial accountability of the government. There are two members who are neither Liberal nor Conservative at the committee: myself and the hon. member. We often deal with the financial accountability of the government when we see audits related to this work. We have a serious issue that was presented to us, so of course we voted together to ensure that we got accountability for the documents at our committee. This is important.

What I find troubling is that the Conservatives are only worried about fiscal accountability when it means scoring points for themselves. They are not worried about the financial accountability that comes from trying to learn from their own mistakes when they were in government.

Could the member please talk about the fact that there is a lot to be learned from the fact that previous governments in Canada, including former Conservative governments, have had serious issues of accountability and corruption? It is worth investigating those issues as a matter of learning for our committee as well.

Will the member speak about the importance of financial accountability, which all parties should think of as equally important, no matter who is in government?

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeOrders Of The Day

3:50 p.m.

Bloc

Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné Bloc Terrebonne, QC

Madam Speaker, I thank my hon. colleague. I really enjoy serving with him on the Standing Committee on Public Accounts. I think that the two of us manage to get quite a bit of work done on that committee. We make a pretty good team.

It is true that the Conservatives will often take on an issue just because it suits their purposes or because it will provide them with nice video clips. However, this issue goes deeper than that. It is not just about video clips, moral authority or fiscal responsibility. It is more than that. We are talking about serious allegations of corruption, potential fraud and potential embezzlement.

However, the government refuses to provide any documents that could well be relevant. That is a major problem. My colleague and I believe in the supremacy of Parliament and in the fact that democracy depends on trust. That trust is currently being undermined around the world, but also in Canada. What the government is doing is undermining the trust that everyone here needs, whether in Quebec or in Canada.

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeOrders Of The Day

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Ryan Williams Conservative Bay of Quinte, ON

Madam Speaker, all political power is trust, and when the trust is broken, the power is lost. After nine years of this Liberal government, Canadians have lost trust in this government. To break down what this debate is for people at home, there is $400 million that was misspent in 186 cases of conflict of interest; there is accountability that this House demands; and when we look at the fact that this whole $400 million was supposed to be for creating jobs that Canadians desperately want and need, what it really comes down to in this debate today is a matter of privilege and trust.

The people in the committee demanded answers. Then in this House, we have demanded that the documents involved be submitted to the RCMP. The government has refused the absolute power of this House to give what the people asked for, which were documents related to conflict of interest and to the misspending of $400 million, and for that money, those documents and all the information therein to be given to those who investigate at the RCMP.

This debate here in the House is a matter of privilege. It is not about whether we should do the right thing and just send it to committee. The government was asked to do something by the people in the House of Commons and the government is refusing to do that. That is the debate we are having here today. There is an important saying that the Constitution was created not to protect the government from the people, but to protect the people from the government.

What is at stake here is accountability, the power of the House of Commons, and transparency and trust for all of government, not just the government that is in power. Parliamentary oversight is essential for accountability. The role of Parliament is to hold the government accountable. By refusing to comply with the House of Commons and produce documents, the government undermines this principle and sets a dangerous precedent for evading oversight.

Parliament is like the referee of a hockey game. Without it, the government would just try to score while breaking every rule in the book. Parliament is like the dentist to the government. They do not want to visit, but without it, things would rot fast. Parliament is like Simon Cowell to the government's talent show. They need to hear the harsh truth, whether they like it or not. Parliament is like one's mom checking their room after they cleaned it. The government might think they are off the hook, but Parliament is going to find the mess.

That is the power of government, and that is the power of Parliament. We call ourselves His Majesty's loyal opposition, and we take that role very seriously. As much as we hear today that the government does not like us making videos or talking on social media, that is our job at this point. We would love to be in government someday, and we talk to Canadians about what we might do differently, but the role we have here today is to hold the government to account and to find the mess.

In committees, we find that we work well with other parties when it comes to certain matters sometimes. When it comes to looking at accountability, in this instance, we will find in this House that it is not just the Conservatives but also the NDP and the Bloc members who have all come together and demanded accountability from the government.

To put it in another perspective, for those Canadians at home, what does that matter and what does that mean? Government's power and Parliament's power are absolute. We can talk about another procedure and we can talk about the charter, but nothing is more powerful than that absolute right from the House of Commons and a directive from the House of Commons.

This means that when the House of Commons comes together and asks for documents and for evidence, the government needs to provide those documents and that evidence. It is not a maybe; it is not a “can be”. To relate this to the government, let us look at what would happen if the CRA came to me and asked for my financial records and my taxes. However, if, instead of complying, I only gave them a few documents or maybe redacted documents and said I did not want CRA knowing about this part of my business or my personal life, what would happen? There would be fines, penalties and possible jail time. To Canadians at home, this House of Commons is the CRA to the government. This House of Commons has the power to ask for documents and it has to ensure that the government listens to that directive.

There is also the issue of respecting the rule of law on parliamentary privilege. The government's refusal to comply with a clear order of the House of Commons violates the rule of law and weakens the democratic process. If Parliament is to maintain its role as a guardian of democracy, it must stand firm in asserting its privileges. Today, all we hear from the government is, “Just send it to committee. There is the compromise. Just send it to committee.” The concern with that is that if we just send it to committee, we are just delaying this issue down the road. It has already happened and we are here only because it was delayed down the road.

This first came to light and the order was made back on June 10. On June 10, the government was asked to hand over to the RCMP what it had in its possession. I am just going to go over what was handed and what was not handed over because the government does say that it handed documents from some organizations and we have some of this documentation.

Well, yes, the Canada School of Public Service, Canada Energy Regulator, Department of Fisheries and Oceans, Library and Archives Canada, and the Office of Privacy Commissioner have given full compliance, and there are a few others. Without redactions and with partial delayed compliance were the Department of Finance and Treasury Board Secretariat.

Then, we have redacted records. The redacted records are documents with a bunch of black on them. Sometimes, whole sheets are blacked out. We have Atlantic Canada Opportunities Agency; Business Development Bank of Canada; Canada Revenue Agency; Canadian Northern Economic Development Agency, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development; Department of Housing, Infrastructure and Communities; and Department of Justice, partial compliance by deadline, with one tranche deposited before transmission to the RCMP, another tranche deposited after transmittal and many documents withheld entirely; Department of National Defence; Department of Natural Resources, but limited scope of production to directors general and above; Department of Public Works and Government Services; Department of Western Economic Diversification; Export Development Canada; Federal Economic Development Agency for Southern Ontario; Pacific Economic Development Canada; Privy Council Office; Social Sciences and Humanities Research Council; Standards Council of Canada; and Sustainable Development Technology Canada, SDTC, the whole organization we are trying to look at.

We had full-out refusal from two departments, saying they were not getting us any documents: the Communications Security Establishment and the Public Sector Pension Investment Board.

It was a simple request, and we can see from multiple departments there was never a simple answer and the documents were never given to where they needed to go. The government's claim that handing over unredacted documents would violate the charter is just an excuse to dodge accountability. Let us be clear: The charter protects individual rights and not the government's right to hide how it spent taxpayer dollars.

Imagine again if someone being audited by CRA said, “I am not handing over my documents because it is a violation of my rights.” That would not fly. CRA would demand full transparency because it is about accountability and ensuring no wrongdoing occurred. This is not a charter violation. It is about the government trying to cover its tracks. Canadians have the right to know where their money went and the government cannot use the charter as a shield to avoid answering for potential misuse of public funds. If the government really believes in transparency, it should hand over the full documents and let the facts speak for themselves.

History provides us with lessons on the consequences of defying parliamentary authority. Let us not forget the case of King Charles I, who refused to acknowledge Parliament's rights and authority. His actions led to a constitutional crisis and his eventual downfall. While we live in a very different time, the principle remains the same: When the executive refuses to respect the will of Parliament, it weakens democracy and erodes the foundations of governance. The government may argue that Parliament overstepped by ordering documents to be handed to the RCMP, but this claim does not hold up. Parliament has the power to demand documents from the government, period. The RCMP can review and investigate if needed, but Parliament is tasked with holding the government accountable.

In the ruling, the Speaker clearly affirmed that the House of Commons has the absolute authority to demand documents from the government without limits unless it explicitly decides otherwise. The government's argument that sharing these documents with the RCMP oversteps Parliament's authority does not hold up under these established rules. The Speaker acknowledged this authority, stating that the motion for the production of documents has already been passed and should have been complied with.

The Speaker also recommended that the matter be referred to a committee for further study, citing the unusual nature of the order, specifically the fact that it involves sending the documents to a third party. However, this suggestion is procedural. It does not negate the original demand from Parliament. We have an absolute right as parliamentarians to demand the production of documents, and the government has to produce those documents.

Here is why the committee route is also not appropriate for this case. Parliament already made a clear demand, which came from committee, and referring this issue to a committee is a way to delay compliance and avoid accountability. The Speaker stated that the government has not fully complied with the order and that the House has the right to decide whether it is satisfied with the response, not a committee. Delaying by sending it to a committee is kicking the can down the road, wasting more time instead of giving Canadians the transparency they deserve right now.

Canadians have so much pain. We spend our time in our constituencies, and all of us know that Canadians are having a hard time feeding and housing themselves right now. They are having a hard time going to the grocery store. These are real issues. I talk routinely about the problems we have with everyday items that other people across the world can afford, like cellphones. The average cellphone bill right now in Canada is over $106. As Canadians use more data, they are finding their cellphone bills have gone up. Telus and Bell just announced they are going to increase the rates for international roaming, at a time when we already pay the highest fees. They are just finding more ways to get money out of Canadians.

We can talk about other big issues. Let us look at trade and what has happened in Canada since we signed CUSMA. Canada was kicked out of the negotiations at the G7 summit for three months when the Prime Minister made the comment that we were not helping. Trade negotiators were kicked out for three months. Mexico made a better deal with the Americans, and what has happened? Mexico is now the Americans' number one trade partner when it used to be Canada. That is two million jobs, trade and paycheques for Canadians.

We have a duty in this House, and we all speak as parliamentarians. When we are elected, we all do it for one “why”. My why has always been my children and others who want to have a better life in Canada. I want a good life for my children and grandchildren. I want them to be able to afford a home, go to the grocery store and afford groceries, get a good education, get good health care and get a good job that pays a good paycheque so they can live a life. I want that for all Canadians. However, the more we are enthralled by issues that waste taxpayer money, by high taxes and by issues that make Canadians unable to find and afford a home, the more the dream is slipping away for many Canadians. It is so bad that the children of Canadians who do not have a home now will probably not be able to afford one.

Today, we must reaffirm the supremacy of Parliament and the importance of transparent governance. When this House ordered the production of documents relating to the SDTC scandal, it did so to uphold its duty of accountability to Canadians. Parliament's right to demand documents is absolute. Any suggestion otherwise is a dangerous misinterpretation of democratic principles.

The refusal to comply is not just an oversight; it is a deliberate obstruction of parliamentary privilege. We must not allow any government to selectively decide which rules to follow. This is not a question of politics. This is a question of preserving the integrity of our democracy and the trust of the citizens who elect us.

The argument that sending documents to the RCMP violates the charter rights of Canadians is deeply flawed. Parliament's order does not dictate what the RCMP should or should not do with the documents. It simply provides the information necessary to investigate possible wrongdoings. Our role is to ensure no stone is left unturned when public funds are mishandled. The government's attempt to block this process cannot stand. Upholding transparency is not a violation of rights; it is the very act of protecting them.

The government's refusal to comply with the House order is a challenge to the authority of this Parliament and a direct affront to the principles of democratic oversight. Today, we must make it clear that no government can shield itself from scrutiny and no charter right can be used to hide the truth from the people. Let the House stand firm in its commitment to uphold democracy, transparency and accountability, for anything less would be an abdication of our duties for Canadians.

Parliamentary oversight is essential for accountability. Parliament's right to demand documents is absolute. Respect for the rule of law and parliamentary privilege is the whole premise and duty of parliamentarians in this place, the House of Commons. There is no conflict between Parliament and the RCMP. The RCMP can decide to do whatever it likes with the documents that are in front of it.

Government obstruction is a pattern, and it has happened before. It happened last in 2021 with the national microbiology lab. Two scientists there needed to be examined. This exact same thing happened and it resulted in an election.

To quote Theodore Roosevelt from back in the 1900s, “No man is above the law and no man is below it; nor do we ask any man's permission when we require him to obey it.” A hundred years later, the same thing holds true. The government is not above the law and is not below it either, nor do we ask the government's permission when we ask it to obey. This is a privilege motion by the House of Commons, which represents the common people. This place, which we walk into every day, is green to remind us of the people who used to work in the fields, and this place has demanded an answer from the government.

For all of us parliamentarians, who represent the people back home who want accountability and transparency, and on behalf of those people, we ask for our privilege to be honoured.

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeOrders Of The Day

4:10 p.m.

Liberal

Chandra Arya Liberal Nepean, ON

Madam Speaker, I heard the member speak quite a bit about the Constitution, so I am sure he is well aware that the three branches of our system of government, which are the executive, the legislative and the judiciary, have separate powers and separate constraints too.

The RCMP wrote to the law clerk of the House of Commons in July saying that it cannot use the records received through this process for the investigation, as the charter rights of the suspect are affected. That is number one. Number two, the Auditor General has expressed concerns that we are blurring the division of powers and responsibilities.

First, are we not being counterproductive in giving the RCMP what it needs? The RCMP understands that it has a legal process for obtaining the records and documents, whatever it needs, to start an investigation. Does he not recognize that?

Second, can the member confirm that Ms. Annette Verschuren, the former chair of SDTC, who is central to this question, was the adviser to two former Conservative prime ministers, was a donor to the Conservative Party and, in fact, donated two years back during the leadership race for the Conservative Party?

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeOrders Of The Day

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

Ryan Williams Conservative Bay of Quinte, ON

Madam Speaker, the RCMP can refuse or take the documents. It is no different than any other investigation. It is absolutely false to say the RCMP has said it does not want the documents. Of course it wants any document that adheres to this investigation. The only one stopping that is the government. Also, if the RCMP says that it is not going to use them, why is the government not giving up the documents? What are we holding them back for?

To go back to the original premise of this, the power of the House is absolute and goes over any of the rights the RCMP has. This is the people's House. The documents have been requested from the people's House, and the government needs to give up the documents on behalf of the people.

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeOrders Of The Day

4:10 p.m.

The Assistant Deputy Speaker (Mrs. Alexandra Mendès) Alexandra Mendes

Before I go to further questions, I will ask hon. members who are speaking or who put their mics on to take their phones away from their mics. When they vibrate, they cause feedback to the interpreters, which can be quite disturbing.

The hon. member for Montcalm.

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeOrders Of The Day

4:10 p.m.

Bloc

Luc Thériault Bloc Montcalm, QC

Madam Speaker, the more I listen to this debate, the more I get the sense that the government is just saying that it is urgent to move forward, but that its actions say otherwise. We ask Liberal Party members in the House questions. We tell them that seniors are waiting, but we get no answers. There is no one on the other end of the line.

Concerning supply management, the government says it would like the Senate to stop stalling the bill in committee, but it is not doing anything.

We say to the House that the documents must be handed over. The documents are necessary so that the committee can do its job properly to determine whether contempt of Parliament has occurred. If it has, we will make the appropriate decisions about whether or not to bring down the government.

Either way, there is inertia on the other side of the House. Does my colleague agree with my interpretation?

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeOrders Of The Day

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

Ryan Williams Conservative Bay of Quinte, ON

Madam Speaker, the member is just figuring out that the government is inert. The government has given us many examples and reasons to topple it. It lost trust and transparency a long time ago.

The member is relying on the government and the Senate to put a bill through. He should not rely on the government. The people do not trust it. It has lost the trust of the people should have lost the trust of the member a long time ago.

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeOrders Of The Day

4:15 p.m.

NDP

Peter Julian NDP New Westminster—Burnaby, BC

Madam Speaker, we are supporting the motion. We believe the information should be available to Canadians, who are opposed to Liberal scandals.

I listened very attentively to my Conservative colleague's speech, and what he omitted to say was that when the Conservatives were in power under the Harper regime, they did even worse than the Liberals. I just want to point out some of the scandals that the Conservatives refused to allow committees to look into, for which they shut down Parliament and refused to provide any documents. This was systemic—

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeOrders Of The Day

4:15 p.m.

Liberal

Kevin Lamoureux Liberal Winnipeg North, MB

Madam Speaker, on a point of order, I am anticipating it to be a fairly exhaustive list. I am prepared to give leave for the member to express—

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeOrders Of The Day

4:15 p.m.

The Assistant Deputy Speaker (Mrs. Alexandra Mendès) Alexandra Mendes

The hon. member will have the same time as everybody else for asking questions.

The hon. member for Bay of Quinte is rising on a point of order.

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeOrders Of The Day

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

Ryan Williams Conservative Bay of Quinte, ON

Madam Speaker, if they are getting more time, I would like at least four hours to list the Liberal scandals—

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeOrders Of The Day

4:15 p.m.

The Assistant Deputy Speaker (Mrs. Alexandra Mendès) Alexandra Mendes

Let us stop joking with this serious matter.

The hon. member for New Westminster—Burnaby.

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeOrders Of The Day

4:15 p.m.

NDP

Peter Julian NDP New Westminster—Burnaby, BC

Madam Speaker, it is a very serious matter.

For the anti-terrorism funding of $3.1 billion, there was never any paper trail established. The Harper government shut down any examination of that. The Phoenix pay system, which woefully the Liberals implemented, was put into place by the Conservatives at a cost of $2.2 billion. At no point during the Harper regime did the Conservatives permit any examination of this $2.2-billion boondoggle. The misspending for the G8 was $1 billion. The Harper regime Conservatives shut down any inquiry into that, and the ETS scandal was $400 million.

Do the Conservatives now admit that they were absolutely wrong to stop Parliament and stop all committees from examining the many Conservative scandals?

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeOrders Of The Day

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

Ryan Williams Conservative Bay of Quinte, ON

Madam Speaker, at the beginning of his statement, the member said he agrees with the motion and that we are one step away. I think we are almost one step away from a non-confidence motion. Maybe we can agree to finally topple the government.

We know that the list of scandals of the government is long. We also know that the NDP has supported the government along. Is it not time to demand accountability, to demand transparency and to stand up for the people in this House and demand that these documents be released?

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeOrders Of The Day

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

Rick Perkins Conservative South Shore—St. Margarets, NS

Madam Speaker, I listened intently to the speech by my colleague, the member for Bay of Quinte, and he touched on all the key points. I would like him to elaborate a little more, if he could, on the claim that there is only one way for the police to start an investigation, as the government House leader likes to look at the bottom half of the Speaker's ruling and not the top half. The Speaker ruled that there is a prima facie case of a breach of privilege.

What that means, for people at home, is that the documents the House requested have not been provided. Charles I lost his head as King of England over the issue of defying the House. I am not saying that this is what should happen to the Liberals, but the fact is that the Crown is defying the House order, and Liberals have been found in breach of that, essentially in contempt of the House.

Would the member comment on why they think that is the only way the police can go? If we were an employer, like I know that member was, we would have turned over the documents to the police, would we not?

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeOrders Of The Day

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

Ryan Williams Conservative Bay of Quinte, ON

Madam Speaker, I would have been made to turn them over by the police, and that is the difference we have in Parliament. It is a funny thing that we have to stand here in a question of privilege, delaying the work of the House, because Parliament is demanding, and the Speaker, the Bloc and the NDP and the Conservatives have demanded, documents to be released. The only reason we are here debating and taking time away from the House today is that the government is refusing.

Yes, the RCMP will use the information. It can refuse it if it likes. It can start investigations any way it chooses. Yes, it has confirmed that it has started an investigation into the $400 million in misused funds.

Let us listen to Parliament for once and get the documents to the RCMP.

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeOrders Of The Day

4:15 p.m.

Winnipeg North Manitoba

Liberal

Kevin Lamoureux LiberalParliamentary Secretary to the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons

Madam Speaker, due to time, the NDP House leader missed a number of scandals, but I would like to highlight a couple of others. We could talk about the Senate scandal from the Conservative Party. What about not one but two election scandals?

Conservative scandals aside, there is the independent agency of the RCMP and there is the independent agency of the Auditor General, both of which have said that the game the Conservatives are playing today ultimately causes a great deal of concern. It is all tied into issues such as the charter, which is relatively important, I would suggest. Does the member not have any concerns, when the two independent agencies are questioning, at least in part, what the Conservatives are doing?

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeOrders Of The Day

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

Ryan Williams Conservative Bay of Quinte, ON

Madam Speaker, my concern is the government's defiance of the absolute power of this place. The power of the House of Commons trumps anything else the government wants to create as a distraction. Why are we in a question of privilege? The government could have ended the debate a couple of days ago.

We are here today because all of the parties are united in the fact that this place, Parliament, on behalf of the people, has the absolute authority to ask the government for accountability and to demand that it gets the documents it required and demanded from the government. The government's defiance of that is a defiance of democracy, transparency and accountability.

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeOrders Of The Day

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

Dan Albas Conservative Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC

Madam Speaker, it is always an honour to rise in this space to speak to the issues that are important to the good people of Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola.

I was speaking with a constituent in the Nicola Valley, who raised an issue with me about how they were starting to feel about the fact that after the next election there will be changes to our riding boundaries; the Nicola Valley will be in a different riding and I will not be in that particular race. They were commenting about how they did not like the change. I told them that I did not like the change either but that sometimes we need to move with the times.

However, I also said that some things should not change. A constituent's member of Parliament, whoever he or she is, should be accountable to them and do their utmost to bring their voice to the chamber. It may be a different member of Parliament, but that should never change. We should always remember who elected us and whom we are here to serve.

This is a reminder to all members who are not members of the cabinet. Essentially, all of us who are not part of the cabinet, the government itself, are here to hold the government to account. As the previous speaker, the member for the Bay of Quinte said, government is tied to the hip of Parliament to be held accountable. We give it exceptional powers. With those exceptional powers there is supposed to be accountability to the representatives.

I know that some members have talked about the three different branches: the judiciary, the executive and the legislative. I respect that, but let us respect the place that we are in. Let us respect that we all have that particular job to do.

One of the interesting arguments I have heard in the media and in the chamber is about issues around charter rights if the government follows through on the original production order made by the chamber. The government said that it cannot share any personal information because it would violate people's charter rights if it gave documents with personal information to the RCMP.

First of all, I would point to section 1 of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, which essentially says that where Parliament chooses in a free and open democratic society to pass a law that gets what it considers the right balance on charter rights, then that is okay. Ultimately the Supreme Court will determine whether Parliament was able to get the balancing act right. Everything is on the table.

Second, the RCMP is a creation of Parliament. It adheres to our laws, particularly the Privacy Act. In fact, the RCMP website says that with respect to any information supplied to it, the RCMP will follow and adhere to everything required of it under the Privacy Act. The RCMP will not share Canadians' information.

As a reminder, here we are, talking about the requirement of the government to produce documents to the chamber that we would give to the RCMP, which, under the Privacy Act, is bound to protect the privacy of individuals who are mentioned. This is information about a program that was funded by taxpayers. Sustainable Development Technology Canada was a federal body created by an act of Parliament. All of its monies and all of its activities were ultimately responsible to the chamber, which was why the former minister of innovation, science and economic development was the minister responsible to the chamber for the green slush fund.

I think it is important to ask whether the government is saying that if it does produce the documents, the RCMP is going to give out the personal information of people working in a publicly funded program, willy-nilly. That is what it is saying. It is essentially saying that the RCMP is not capable of operating a tight ship, according to the law. That is the criticism the government is laying down by saying that there are privacy concerns.

We are not saying that the information should be given to everyone. The Privacy Act has very clear stipulations about an access to information request and what information one can receive. There are rules that are well codified and well laid out, and ultimately the government should respect that fact.

Therefore let us put to bed the whole conversation about privacy when it comes to people who have participated in the federal Sustainable Development Technology program and who, as part of that, have voted for their own companies to receive large amounts, in a situation where the Auditor General found huge discrepancies with respect to conflict of interest over hundreds of millions of dollars. I hope we will hear nothing more about the so-called privacy concerns.

I will now return to the amendment that the Conservatives have made to the motion we are debating, which reads:

That the motion be amended by adding the following:

“provided that it be an instruction to the committee:

(a) that the following witnesses be ordered to appear before the committee, separately, for two hours each:

(i) the Minister of Innovation, Science and Industry,

(ii) the Clerk of the Privy Council,

(iii) the Auditor General of Canada,

(iv) the Commissioner of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police,

(v) the Deputy Minister of Innovation, Science and Economic Development Canada,

(vi) the Law Clerk and Parliamentary Counsel of the House of Commons,

(vii) the Acting President of Sustainable Development Technology Canada,

(viii) a panel consisting of the Board of Sustainable Development Technology Canada; and

(b) that it report back to the House no later than Friday, November 22, 2024.”

The amendment is giving important instructions so we can get to the bottom of the issue.

I am going to step back from the motion for a second to say one thing. One of our members from Ontario, today in question period, raised a really important question, effectively asking what is in the documents that the government would stonewall its obligations to Parliament.

Some might just say that it is the egomaniacs who find themselves in the current Prime Minister's Office who are saying, “Let's be obstinate. Let's just say that we don't have to, that we're not subject to them.” Well, the message is that the executive branch rules the roost and that it has no responsibilities to anyone. As someone who believes in the rule of law, I would simply say that it is up to us as an institution, as men and women of the House of Commons, to push back, because no one person is exceptional. That is why we have the rule of law and not the rule of a man or a woman, where they get to decide.

The second thing I would point out is that when we are talking about the conduct of the current government, its members could be saying, “Wow, we allowed some horrible things to happen, and they could be criminal, definitely unethical, under the SDTC process.” However, now that they realize how shockingly bad it is, they do not want to see the information go to the RCMP, because it may have evidence to open a case file but may not have all the pieces of the puzzle to be able to have a broad range of charges to bring forward.

I am clearly openly speculating on this. Why am I? It is because in the vacuum provided by the government, speculation will roar in. Why is that? It is because it is a head-scratcher. Why would the government stonewall a production order by the House? It is either because of ego or because it is so overwhelmingly bad that the government does not want to own up to it publicly.

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeOrders Of The Day

4:25 p.m.

An hon. member

Corrupt.

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeOrders Of The Day

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

Dan Albas Conservative Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC

Madam Speaker, someone just said “corrupt”. It could be, but if the Liberals will not come forward to tell otherwise, to show their work and to show the RCMP that they have dealt with the House order, then we are left to wonder. That is on them; it is not on us as members.

I know we have had many days of debate on this, and it is unfortunate because there are lots of things we could be debating, like housing, affordability and crime. Bill C-48 has been a massive failure. People are still getting out on bail, committing crimes and hurting families, not just in B.C. but right across the country. There is so much we could be doing, but we cannot argue those things until we resolve this.

I really push the government members, the ones who are listening right now. This does not just fall on the Prime Minister. It falls on you. Tomorrow, you will have a caucus and if you do not put pressure on the Prime Minister in those areas, to say, “I want us to be able—”

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeOrders Of The Day

October 8th, 2024 / 4:30 p.m.

NDP

Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON

On a point of order, Madam Speaker, is the member asking the Speaker to put pressure on the Prime Minister? I do not think that is appropriate. I know you do have a caucus tomorrow, Madam Speaker, but he is saying “you will be putting pressure” and I just want to clarify.

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeOrders Of The Day

4:30 p.m.

The Assistant Deputy Speaker (Mrs. Alexandra Mendès) Alexandra Mendes

I would not be putting any pressure on anyone. I would advise the member to be prudent in his use of words.