Debates of Oct. 8th, 2025

Military Justice Modernization Act

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague from the Bloc for her work with veterans. When she is at the national defence committee, she always has a lot to contribute to the discussion.

I would like to ask the member whether she has some of the concerns Conservatives have, which are that the civilian criminal justice system has been undermined by the Liberals, and because of Bill C-75 and Bill C-5, when someone is charged with sexual assault, sexual exploitation or sexual human trafficking, they can serve their sentence under house arrest.

Would the requirements for lax sentencing given out by the civil courts, whether provincial or federal, undermine the ability to get justice for victims of military sexual trauma as we move cases from the military court to civilian courts?

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I would rather not go into detail on that, because, on top of everything, based on what we are hearing at the Standing Committee on Veterans Affairs in particular, there is a knowledge gap when it comes to the services available and the process for either filing a complaint or pursuing legal action. We need to take stock, to determine whether we have everything we need to support victims and decide how we will do that in a respectful and dignified manner, as I said earlier.

[Ron McKinnon, Liberal, Coquitlam—Port Coquitlam, BC]

Mr. Speaker, to me, what seems to underscore the very importance of the bill is the fact that certain issues could be separated from the military justice system and put into the civilian system. In some cases, for example, circumstances of sexual misconduct and other things of that sort could be directed directly to the Canadian Human Rights Commission without going through internal processes.

I wonder what the member would say to that.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Mr. Speaker, with respect to the objective of this bill, all we need to do is think about a person who files a complaint against someone who has the authority to retaliate or make threats and change their life.

Essentially, we have been waiting 10 years for this problem to be addressed. This is a first step. I am certain that in committee, among parliamentarians, all members will be able to work out the best course of action for victims.

Message from the Senate

[The Assistant Deputy Speaker, John Nater]

Order.

I have the honour to inform the House that a message has been received from the Senate informing this House that the Senate has passed the following bill, to which the concurrence of the House is desired: Bill S-227, An Act respecting Arab Heritage Month.

It is my duty pursuant to Standing Order 38 to inform the House that the questions to be raised tonight at the time of adjournment are as follows: the hon. member for Elgin—St. Thomas—London South, Canadian Heritage; the hon. member for Riding Mountain, Health; the hon. member for Nunavut, Indigenous Affairs.

The House resumed consideration of the motion that Bill C-11, An Act to amend the National Defence Act and other Acts, be read the second time and referred to a committee.

Military Justice System Modernization Act

[Jeff Kibble, Conservative, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Mr. Speaker, it is my pleasure to rise on behalf of the great people of Cowichan—Malahat—Langford on Vancouver Island. I would like to take a minute to recognize a resident from Langford, Mr. Matt Gariepy, who recently retired from the Royal Canadian Navy after 23 years of service. I congratulate Matt.

Today I am honoured to speak on behalf of the brave men and women serving our country in the Canadian Armed Forces. As a veteran myself, I am proud to have worked with so many heroic men and women, and I share much respect for those who have served and continue to serve. I understand first-hand the support that all people in uniform need, and I have made it part of my mission to continue to listen and to ensure that their needs are met.

Unfortunately, all too often, people in uniform are impacted by military sexual trauma, an issue that Bill C-11 looks to address. My Conservative colleagues and I wholeheartedly believe that we must address and provide realistic solutions to the issues of sexual misconduct, racism, sexism and other forms of harassment in the military. All military members deserve to have a safe and respectful workplace, especially given the amount of sacrifice we already ask of them and their families.

Deschamps, Fish and Arbour are three former Supreme Court justices who have released separate reports dealing with sexual misconduct in the military, the first of which was published in 2015, yet we are still waiting for a majority of the recommendations to be implemented. Less than half of them had been implemented as of the last public updates, and I am at a loss as to why the government has sat on its hands and ignored our military members again and again, especially those who are suffering from military sexual trauma. They deserve better than what the Liberal government has yet to give them.

Under the current system, victims and their families have no answers, and their cases continue to sit, awaiting proper action. It is 10 years and three separate reports later, and we are finally seeing the Liberal government start to implement legislation to help deal with the horrific travesties of justice, something the Liberal government should have dealt with years ago.

Though desperately late, Bill C-11 has the potential to meet one of the many outstanding recommendations that need to be implemented from the Deschamps, Fish and Arbour reports. The bill is something the Conservatives want sent to committee, where it clearly needs rigorous study. We need to hear from experts, including those in the legal community, and we need to hear from victims and those who have served or are still serving.

Unfortunately the legislation is not without issue. Conservatives already spoke to numerous stakeholders about the bill when it was in its previous form, Bill C-66, and there are many questions and concerns that must be addressed, which is why we support the bill in principle but believe it requires in-depth study at committee.

One of the concerns that has been brought forward is that the legislation would open the door to increased political interference with new Governor in Council appointments of the director of military prosecutions, the director of defence counsel services and the provost marshal. They would be moved from their current reporting structure under the judge advocate general, and while the intention of the change is well-meaning, meant to create independence from the military and the judge advocate general, it would ultimately give more power to the minister of national defence.

Not only would the minister have direct control over the key investigatory and legal positions in the Canadian Armed Forces, but the change would also allow them to issue guidelines related to Bill C-11 with respect to prosecutions. While the change would mitigate military interference, it would also open the door to direct political interference. Given the evidence we have seen first-hand of increased political interference from the Liberal government over the last decade, it raises concerns that this pattern may be even worse under the legislation. I am talking about cases like Vice-Admiral Mark Norman and the former chief of the defence staff Jonathan Vance.

Moreover, the logistics around the lengths of the appointments and the process of how individuals would be appointed is unclear. There would be no consistency with the other Governor in Council appointments. We must address these issues before implementing the bill.

The bill indicates that investigations and prosecutions would be moved under civilian authority for sexual misconduct cases that take place within Canada, which we support, but what about the cases that take place abroad while on deployment? Those would still be investigated and prosecuted by the military police, who often already struggle to successfully investigate and prosecute under the current system, and now the concern is that those skills would only atrophy, as they would see fewer cases. This must be considered and accounted for in legislation to ensure that Canadian Armed Forces members can be properly served justice at home or while deployed abroad.

Additionally, while the military police can still start investigations of these cases on Canadian soil, they are to pass the investigation along to civilian investigators as soon as possible. This is a step in the right direction, but we need to ensure that these investigations are unhindered. This brings us back to the concern over political interference.

An unhindered civilian investigation will be vital to the success of cases in civilian court, so it is key that the bill outlines that process and includes the importance of unobstructed, independent investigation. There need to be tight protocols for the collection and sharing of information related to the investigations, and there need to be solid protocols for unrestricted access by civilian investigators. These are only a few examples of the key issues that will require rigorous committee examination of the bill.

The last concern I wish to speak to today is that of the capacity of the civilian courts to take on these cases. We have seen, over the last 10 years, the civilian courts become more and more overwhelmed because of the Liberals' soft-on-crime policies. The bill would only add to a system that is already over capacity. This may lead to prosecutors' refusing to try a case because of an unlikely probability of conviction. What recourse will this leave victims? Internal service code of discipline punishments may still be possible, but will they happen?

I fear that this will just feed the mentality of excusing systemic military sexual trauma in the Canadian Armed Forces. Our service members do not feel safe or respected. They do not feel supported or honoured by the government. We must deal with the issue of sexual misconduct and harassment so that our forces can begin to feel that respect. Many military sexual trauma survivors are being released or quitting the Armed Forces, along with many others who face systemic issues in the military, which is having a huge impact on recruitment and retention.

We are short approximately 16,500 members in the Canadian Armed Forces. We are desperately short on the hard-working men and women who train up our troops to deploy on missions. Currently, there are over 10,000 undertrained and undeployable members in uniform. That is, over 10,000 men and women do not have the skills or necessary training to perform the jobs they have been hired to do.

This is both unsustainable and embarrassing for Canada as a nation. We must do everything we can to ensure that the supports our troops actually need and that they are asking for are implemented so that they can feel safe and respected in the workplace, be it on base in Canada or deployed in Latvia.

Over the last few days of debate, we have heard a lot about the big names who have been accused of sexual misconduct, such as the admirals and generals who have been charged. Of course, that is what we hear in the news. However, my concern is for the names that do not make the news: the young lieutenant who was repeatedly raped by his commanding officer; the corporal who has gone to her commanders only to be told the evidence is not there, or worse, have the evidence swept under the rug; the young sergeant who was pinned down and raped by her peers because she had received a prestigious award; or the master corporal who was raped by a fellow allied service member in Latvia, outside Canadian jurisdiction and where local authorities are not willing to prosecute. I have heard first-hand as Canadian Forces National Investigation Service members told a victim that they had all the pieces needed to get a solid conviction, but they have been told not to prosecute because it would reflect poorly on the military.

These are all examples of MST victims that I personally know. I have met them, and they have shared their stories with me. These are all examples of what victims are dealing with.

This is why we need to move cases to civilian court and why Conservatives generally support Bill C-11, despite its being 10 years late. We need to make sure these changes are implemented effectively through detailed examination in committee. It is good to see some common agreement in the House on some of the overall goals of the bill. I look forward to resolving these issues in detail in committee so that we can bring the bill back for third reading and see proper legislation in place.

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague for sharing his personal testimony on this bill. I would like to confirm whether I understand correctly that the official opposition intends to support this bill at second reading so that it can be sent to committee for study.

I would also like him to explain what he expects from this study in committee. Can he tell us about one or two amendments that he would like to see made to the bill in committee so that he and his colleagues can support it at third reading?

[Jeff Kibble, Conservative, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Mr. Speaker, we look forward to supporting the bill's going to committee. It would be very important to see that cases of military sexual trauma are treated equally for personnel deployed versus personnel in Canada.

It is going to take a lot of committee work to investigate to achieve a fair result, as well as to find a more effective way of avoiding outside influences, be they at the political level or the military level, so that civilian investigators and prosecutors are able to respond without bias and actually properly investigate these issues.

[Patrick Bonin, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

Mr. Speaker, this bill responds to the recommendations in the Arbour report, including recommendation 5, which essentially proposed completely removing from CAF jurisdiction the investigation and prosecution of Criminal Code sexual offences committed within Canada.

I would like to know whether my hon. colleague agrees with this recommendation, which is central to this bill.

[Jeff Kibble, Conservative, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Mr. Speaker, indeed, that is one of the recommendations coming out of the three Supreme Court justices' reports. If implemented, then Bill C-11 would achieve one of those many recommendations that still need to be actioned. It would be nice to see that one achieved. We look forward to seeing the other recommendations completed also, to resolve these issues.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Mr. Speaker, I want to thank my friend and colleague, the member for Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, for his excellent speech, for his service to Canada as a member of the Royal Canadian Navy and for being there to hear the stories and support those members who have been victims of military sexual trauma. He got quite emotional in that, when we hear these stories and hear how the chain of command did not want to prosecute certain individuals because it might mess up those individuals' chances for career advancement, we can see why the bill is necessary. It is sad that it has been 10 years since we first learned about this, and the Liberals are bringing this forward only now.

Could the member address whether or not the bill would deal with the issue of information sharing, when we transfer these cases to the civilian courts, between local police agencies and the courts with the Canadian Armed Forces so that the code of service discipline and the ethos that is supposed to permeate throughout the entire military will be properly enforced at the military level while individuals are seeking justice in the civilian system?

[Jeff Kibble, Conservative, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Mr. Speaker, indeed, that is the purpose of one of the items to be investigated at committee: to ensure that information is transferred. I can speak personally to cases that military police have investigated in which items, documents, divisional notes and stuff have disappeared and made those investigations more challenging to complete. Something to be looked at in committee would be proper, full authorized access to records, statements, witnesses, etc.

I look forward to addressing that at committee. It is a key and important part of ensuring that these types of matters can be investigated fully by civilian authorities.

[Chi Nguyen, Liberal, Spadina—Harbourfront, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I rise today to speak about the much-needed modernization of the Canadian military justice system and the transformation of the culture within the Canadian Armed Forces.

Bill C-11 is an important step in renewing the Canadian Armed Forces and ensuring that our military institutions reflect the values of justice and dignity that Canadians and CAF members both expect and deserve. Canada's military justice system must not only reflect fairness, accountability and respect but also uphold the trust Canadians place in the institutions that serve them. Through Bill C-11, we also have a responsibility to protect them.

Bill C-11 represents change at a time when Canada is making significant investments in the armed forces, but we cannot invest in our military without investing in its people, especially women, victims and survivors of sexual misconduct.

Before my election to the House, I spent my career advancing systemic solutions, equity in political systems and policy reform to strengthen women's representation in public life. I worked to ensure that women and other under-represented groups have a voice in the decisions that affect their lives, particularly in spaces where their voices have traditionally been absent.

Bill C-11, the military justice system modernization act, is in many ways an extension of this work. The legislation is about giving every member of the armed forces the tools, the respect and the support they need to serve in an environment that values their safety and dignity.

The Canadian Armed Forces have a proud and essential role in defending our country and ensuring the safety of all Canadians. Members of our armed forces protect Canada at home and abroad, responding to natural disasters, defending our sovereignty and contributing to international peace and security efforts. Their service across Canada is a source of national pride.

For too long, incidents of sexual misconduct have had deep impacts on individuals, families and entire units. Independent reviews from former Supreme Court justices Arbour and Fish made clear recommendations.

Bill C-11 would respond to them, ensuring that all Canadian Armed Forces are safe from harassment and from misconduct. The legislation strengthens the system by implementing Justice Morris Fish's call to shift sexual offences to civilian jurisdiction and by building on Louise Arbour's 48 recommendations to address systemic cultural issues.

First, the bill removes CAF jurisdiction over Criminal Code sexual offences committed in Canada. Civilian authorities would have the exclusive responsibility to investigate and prosecute these offences.

This is not a technical adjustment. It is a matter of principle. Sexual violence must be addressed with the full transparency, accountability and independence of our civilian legal system. Bill C-11 would enshrine in law that CAF would no longer have jurisdiction over such offences. Civilian police forces and authorities would have exclusive jurisdiction, ensuring greater clarity and fairness in how these cases are handled.

These issues are not unique to the military, but they have been compounded by a justice system that, at times, seems ill-equipped to address the complexities of misconduct, especially in a culture with power dynamics that are deeply entrenched. This is why Bill C-11 is not only about reforming policies; it is about continuing the cultural transformation inside the CAF. It recognizes that military justice must evolve alongside the needs and values of a changing society. We are committed to ensuring that the Canadian Armed Forces become a place in which every member, regardless of gender, background or rank, feels safe, respected and empowered to serve.

Another priority of the legislation is to rebuild public trust in the Canadian Armed Forces, in response to the decades of concerns raised by victims and survivors of the Canadian Armed Forces community.

When victims tell us that they have been harmed, we must listen. Our government is taking decisive steps to rebuild and reinforce that trust within the Canadian Armed Forces. The reforms in the bill would strengthen the independence of key roles within the military justice system, including the provost marshal and the director of military prosecutions.

These roles would be elevated to increase their independence, ensuring that decisions are made based on law and evidence and not on hierarchy or politics. To reinforce transparency, the provost marshal general would be required to submit an annual report to the minister detailing the activities of the military police and the provost marshal. This reporting requirement would reinforce accountability and ensure that Parliament and Canadians are kept informed of progress and challenges within the system.

Perhaps most importantly, the bill would enhance support for victims. It would establish the right to request a victim liaison officer, whose aid would be provided to victims throughout the transfer of cases, regardless of jurisdiction. This is a meaningful acknowledgement of the trauma that victims often endure and the need for compassionate, survivor-centred approaches. The bill would help ensure that no matter where a case is handled, the victim is never left to navigate the system alone.

As we debate Bill C-11 today, we must remember that while modernizing the military justice system is important, equally vital is supporting survivors of sexual misconduct.

Over the past decade, the sexual misconduct support and resource centre, or SMSRC, has been an essential part of the defence team's response to sexual misconduct. Through its work, we have been able to provide survivors and those impacted by sexual misconduct the resources they need to begin healing.

Let me take a moment to highlight some of the critical programs and services the SMSRC offers to survivors.

For anyone who has been affected by sexual misconduct, whether as a victim, a witness or even a supporter of a victim or survivor, the SMSRC provides 24-7 access to confidential, trauma-informed services. For example, the 24-7 support line is available to any member of the defence team or their family, offering anonymous, bilingual counselling and guidance about available options for support, including referrals to community resources.

Additionally, the response and support coordination program assigns a dedicated coordinator to support survivors at every stage of their journey, from initial disclosure through to legal proceedings, even helping survivors transition to civilian services if they choose. These supports are just one part of services for victims and survivors.

Bill C-11 goes even further to ensure the justice system within the CAF is truly aligned with Canadian values. One of the most important provisions of the bill is the transfer of jurisdiction over criminal sexual offences to civilian authorities within Canada. This provision aligns with Justice Arbour's recommendation to ensure that such cases are handled by civilian authorities, where they can be investigated, prosecuted and adjudicated independently of the military hierarchy. This move sends a strong message, not just to the survivors but to every member of the Canadian Armed Forces, that sexual misconduct will not be tolerated and will be treated with the seriousness it deserves.

This bill is not just about legal reform; it is also about ensuring that military culture evolves. Culture change is not easy, but it is possible. We have seen progress. We have heard survivors speak out. We have seen a growing recognition that the status quo is no longer acceptable. We must move beyond silence and build a culture of accountability, transparency and respect, not just within the CAF but throughout society on all of these issues.

I want to acknowledge the extraordinary role of gender violence experts such as Julie Lalonde, Farrah Khan, Pamela Cross and Emma Phillips, who have courageously pushed for our institutions to change and invited us all to have a role in changing our understandings of the persistent violence in our communities. This work is especially important as we seek to recruit and retain the next generation of CAF members.

Young Canadians want to join institutions that reflect their values. They want to serve in workplaces that are safe, inclusive and respectful. This bill would help us build exactly that kind of workplace, one where all members can thrive.

Bill C-11 is the legislative embodiment of this progress. It is the result of years of advocacy, consultation and reflection. It represents a clear signal that this government is serious about transforming the Canadian Armed Forces and our military institutions.

Bill C-11 is not the finish line. It is another step in a longer journey of institutional change. The reforms are not just about fixing a broken system, but about building a better one with a military justice system that reflects inclusion, respect and accountability. It would ensure that every member of the CAF, regardless of rank, gender or background, can serve with confidence knowing their rights will be protected and their voices heard.

I want to acknowledge the survivors who have spoken out, the advocates who have pushed for reform, the experts who have provided guidance and the members of the CAF who have called for a better system. Their courage and persistence made this legislation possible.

I urge all members of this House to support Bill C-11. Let us stand together in support of survivors, in support of reform and in honour of our CAF members, not only with words but through action.

I am proud to support this bill, and I urge my colleagues to do the same. Let us build a Canadian Armed Forces where every person can serve knowing they are safe, respected and valued.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant South—Six Nations, ON]

Mr. Speaker, sex assault victims, whether they be military-based or civilian-based, have an absolute lack of trust in the Canadian legal system. There is significant under-reporting, and inconsistent investigative measures are taken. When a matter does get to court, there are Crown attorneys who either display an interest or a lack of interest. There is revictimization within the trial process itself.

How does Bill C-11 address those deficiencies?

[Chi Nguyen, Liberal, Spadina—Harbourfront, ON]

Mr. Speaker, as somebody who has worked in the gender violence space for many years, I know there is distrust of our systems among survivors, and there is work to be done in all of our legal systems to build back trust. There are some very strong elements in this bill that are based on the strong recommendations coming out of the reports from both justices that give us a pathway for that.

[Patrick Bonin, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to come back to the very essence of this bill. One of the recommendations in the Arbour report is recommendation 5, which I mentioned earlier. It proposes completely removing from CAF jurisdiction the investigation and prosecution of Criminal Code sexual offences committed within Canada. As I understand it, that was the only recommendation that required legislation.

Does my colleague believe that the bill fully responds to recommendation 5 of the Arbour report?

[Chi Nguyen, Liberal, Spadina—Harbourfront, ON]

Mr. Speaker, from my understanding, this bill would allow us to establish and move forward on the particular requirement that was noted.

[Sonia Sidhu, Liberal, Brampton South, ON]

Mr. Speaker, how is removing military jurisdiction over sexual offences a necessary step to rebuilding the trust of victims and survivors who have lost faith in the system? Can you explain that?

[The Assistant Deputy Speaker, John Nater]

Questions should go through the Chair.

The hon. member for Spadina—Harbourfront.

[Chi Nguyen, Liberal, Spadina—Harbourfront, ON]

Mr. Speaker, why is this important? Part of what surfaced in the reports was the existence of the chain of command and it being a challenge in the culture of the military. The bill would allow for a different approach to justice, which was one of the recommendations put forth very strongly.

[Grant Jackson, Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

Mr. Speaker, I would like my colleague across the way to answer the question, if she can, about why the Liberals are splitting the treatment of crimes committed on Canadian soil from those committed when our armed forces personnel are deployed off Canadian soil.

[Chi Nguyen, Liberal, Spadina—Harbourfront, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I will confess that I am not able to speak to that; I do not have the answer, unfortunately.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons]

Mr. Speaker, in principle, what we have heard from all sides of this House is support for the legislation. A previous Conservative speaker summed it up quite well in saying that the principle is there and we need to get it to committee. I agree with that member.

We have now exceeded the five-hour mark. If we allow the bill to go to committee, many questions, like the one just asked, could be answered, because there is just reason for them. I am sure if the member really wants an answer, we can provide it to him. If he wants to come across the way, I would be more than happy to talk to him off to the side.

I wonder if the member could provide her thoughts on getting this bill passed so it can go to committee.

[Chi Nguyen, Liberal, Spadina—Harbourfront, ON]

Mr. Speaker, it is really important legislation to pass so that survivors can feel safe. One of the other elements in the legislation that I think is really important is the annual reporting. The measures there are best practices in this space, and I think this is an opportunity for us to do the right thing.