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Crucial Fact

  • Her favourite word was offences.

Last in Parliament September 2008, as Liberal MP for London West (Ontario)

Lost her last election, in 2008, with 35% of the vote.

Statements in the House

Tlicho Land Claims and Self-Government Act October 29th, 2004

Mr. Speaker, as I listened to the member give his speech, I heard echoes of the debates that unfortunately we listened to during the Nisga'a. At that time, I was the chair of the committee. I not only listened to the debate in the House and the testimony, I also sat through the over 400 amendments, all of which were not on the treaty provisions itself, as was claimed a little earlier today, but on the enabling act just as it is here.

Someone questioned that earlier. I thought I would take this opportunity to pull the Hansard of Tuesday, October 19, 1999. The Hon. Robert Nault, who was the minister of Indian affairs and northern development at the time, said:

Mr. Speaker, I take this opportunity to table a notice of a ways and means motion to implement certain provisions of the Nisga'a final agreement and the Nisga'a nation taxation agreement, and I ask that an order of the day be designated for consideration of this motion.

In other words, unlike what was said earlier in this House by the opposition party, Nisga'a was done in exactly the same way. I hope I stop hearing that argument. If they cannot read the Hansard , I have read it to them.

I would like to ask a question of this member. I honestly do not understand how his party can say that we need to speed up the treaty process, that we need to help economic development, that we need to get certainty and that many people live on lands that are on certain boundaries. We have not three months or one term of the lives of members in this Parliament or even two terms. We have over a decade of negotiation made in good faith with negotiators from the federal government and from the territorial government where the land is. They made a unanimous ratification in that parliament.

There are over 3,000 members of the Tlicho, with an 84.6% vote in favour and a 90 some odd per cent turnout at that election. Here our job procedurally is to ratify or not.

I can understand if people stand up and say that they do not want to ratify. However, do not say that these good things should happen, but this is not the time or that there has not been enough time taken or that good faith negotiation has not taken place, because that is not the case.

Let us be honest. Is this moving forward? Do we want to move this bill or will we just talk about it and slowly delay and move it on? Is this member serious about doing land claims in Canada?

Tlicho Land Claims and Self-Government Act October 29th, 2004

Mr. Speaker, I know the hon. member has spent a lot of time in municipal council and that local governments are always concerned with economic development in their communities.

I would like to ask the hon. member just how having that new, local community government will help establish the aspirations of not only the economic development, but how that feeds into the social and the human development of the people in the community.

Tlicho Land Claims and Self-Government Act October 29th, 2004

Check your record, it's the same. Check in Hansard .

Tlicho Land Claims and Self-Government Act October 29th, 2004

Mr. Speaker, with that speaker, I do not know where to begin on some of the misinformation. I will take that it is innocently laid on the table, so I will try to clarify some of the comments he has made.

The Tlicho agreement and the tax treatment agreement set out the status and authorities of the Tlicho government and the Tlicho community governments with respect to taxation. Tlicho citizens will be subject to taxation in the same way as other Canadians. The Tlicho agreement provides that the Tlicho government can enact laws in relation to direct taxation of Tlicho citizens on Tlicho lands or in Tlicho communities.

In addition, the Tlicho community governments can make laws respecting taxation similar to property taxation in other municipalities. Federal taxation authorities are not affected by these new authorities. Like other governmental bodies, the Tlicho government will be entitled to a refund of the goods and services tax paid in the course of performing a function of government, and similarly the income of the Tlicho government and the Tlicho community governments will be tax exempt.

The ratification process we are going through is where they will get inside their agreement the taxation authority. Documents have been made. The only document that is left undone is the tax sharing one between departments, like we would have with any province or territory and the federal government.

What is important to understand is Tlicho people pay taxes now and they will continue to pay taxes. They will have new rights. The new rights will come about because they are in the written agreement, which we will ratify. For anybody who understands procedure in the House, and he is a longer-standing member so I would have expected him to know this, when there is a taxation authority, the procedural ways and means motion is the way we bring it here. We have to do that because there is a taxation part on what we are doing.

That is procedure. It is not something that somebody dreamed up. I know the member from our party said that. It is in the documents at the table. It can be confirmed by the clerks who sit at the table who are independent procedural experts. It is a rule of the House and that is how we have to proceed. It has nothing to do with what can or cannot be done afterwards. It has to do with the authorities that are needed. The member for Winnipeg Centre also reiterated the same point. We are certainly not of the same party and often not of the same view.

He said many things about minerals. The lack of generosity boggles my mind. The whole point of giving resources is so a community can develop. There will be taxes paid. There will be certainty for those inside the territory and outside the territory as to the boundaries of the territory. Economic community for aboriginal Canadians is good for every Canadian. It is all about that.

Is this the same mindset that we saw in Nisga'a, or is it really just an evolution to another excuse not to contribute to the advancement of aboriginal Canadians and treaty processes in the country?

Tlicho Land Claims and Self-Government Act October 27th, 2004

Madam Speaker, a couple of times today I heard a concern about certainty being achieved with the Tlicho agreement and whether the Tlicho citizens will be surrendering their aboriginal and Treaty 11 rights?

The simple answer is that an alternative to the traditional surrender technique is used in this agreement. The Government of Canada created a new technique for achieving certainty with respect to land and resources. Rather than accede, release and surrender aboriginal rights, the Tlicho agreement applies a non-assertion technique whereby the Tlicho agree not to assert any land rights other than those agreed to in the Tlicho agreement.

Should the courts determine that an assertable land right exists that is not in the Tlicho agreement, the Tlicho agree to release this right to the crown. This fall back release ensures that the agreement achieves a final settlement on land rights. That is as certain as we can get.

This fall back release technique applies only to the land rights however. For non-land rights, for example various self-government rights, the Tlicho agree to only exercise those non-land rights set out in the agreement. However the Tlicho can seek recognition of non-land rights. If such a right is agreed to by the parties or confirmed by the courts, this then can be added to and exercised through the agreement.

When there is certainty in the land rights and there is only action through the courts on non-land rights, which must then be agreed to, what further certainty could the member want? What else would be expected of the Tlicho at this stage in a modern treaty?

What would the member have these three parties to this agreement do that is different than has been done? This is a very important issue. He has raised it as a problem. I want to know what his problem is and what solution he would offer.

Tlicho Land Claims and Self-Government Act October 27th, 2004

Madam Speaker, the hon. member has asked me quite a large breadth of questions. I certainly will not be able to supply the answers in a couple of minutes.

The Tlicho agreement, I can assure the member, has sections that deal with land and water management. It has sections that deal with the hon. member's questions on gender equality, access, wildlife harvesting and management, trees, plants and forest resources, water rights and water management, subsurface resources, national parks and protected areas, heritage resources, economic measures, taxation, the idea of a Tlicho government and Tlicho community governments. There are financial arrangements, ministerial powers, transitional timelines and regulations.

All of these areas have been negotiated. If the hon. member is serious about understanding parts of this, we could go through it with him. We will have that opportunity.

The law-making powers are important to the member and I am going to try to address that for him right now. He is asking about the relationship between Tlicho laws and federal laws and maybe even the territorial laws. The law-making powers of the Tlicho government will be exercised concurrently with the law-making powers of Canada and the territorial government. Within that there needs to be some further explanation.

This concurrent exercise of law-making authorities helps to avoid legal vacuums if the Tlicho government does not exercise its negotiated law-making authority. The Tlicho agreement provides that if there is a conflict between a federal law of general application and a Tlicho law, the federal law will prevail. That is very clear in this agreement.

Tlicho Land Claims and Self-Government Act October 27th, 2004

Madam Speaker, over the course of time we will be able to discuss many questions and I am prepared to speak privately with any members who are not satisfied with the answers in the House.

The Tlicho bill has two main features. It gives effect and force of law to the Tlicho agreement and the tax treatment agreement. I should also mention that it makes related and consequential amendments to other federal acts, namely the Mackenzie Valley Resource Management Act, the Access to Information Act, the Northwest Territories Act, the Northwest Territories Waters Act, the Canada Lands Surveys Act, the Canadian Environmental Assessment act, the Lobbyists Registration Act, the Payments in Lieu of Taxes Act and the Privacy Act, just to name a few. It covers many different areas.

The hon. member would know that there are four main communities within the territory and these governments would have elections. There is a methodology that the new government of the Tlicho would take over from those community governments that already exist.

I am sure the hon. member knows that currently the residents in this area are covered under the Charter of Rights and Freedoms and there are specific provisions in the agreement that say that the charter will apply. When that charter applies, it means that it applies as equally to a member in the community of Tlicho as it does to myself. Therefore, we have equal protection afforded under that piece.

Within the areas of this agreement, in regard to which legislation is concurrent or which legislation has the higher priority, federal laws do. In fact, with respect to international treaties, there are many sections in this bill, and I could go through them and I am sure I will be going through them with my hon. colleague, the critic for the official opposition. I look forward to that exercise because we do have the answers, but I do not denigrate from the questions being asked.

We look forward to this opportunity because the Tlicho community wants to say to all of Canada that it wants to join Canada in the way that celebrates its heritage, celebrates its culture and celebrates its contribution. In self-government, as the hon. member understands, is that ability to meld the two together and go from an economic perspective.

I have heard the phrase from the hon. member's party on the question of the Tlicho agreement that it creates a third order of government. It is important that I spend a moment on that question. There is no Supreme Court of Canada recognition of a third order of government. Agreements are negotiated within Canada's existing constitutional framework and are not negotiated as a third order of government.

The Tlicho agreement addresses the aboriginal rights of the Tlicho and the rights set out in the agreement will be protected under section 35.1 of the Constitution Act, 1982. Section 35.1 of the Constitution Act, 1982 recognizes and affirms existing aboriginal and treaty rights. Court cases like Delgamuukw have clarified the nature of aboriginal rights and the protection that section 35 provides; however, they have not defined the full scope of the rights.

Moreover, the courts have continued to encourage a resolution of the issues through negotiation. That is what we have done here rather than litigation. We could fill our courts for a long time at great expense to everybody or we could come to the table, and negotiate fair and equitable agreements that recognize the inherent rights of the original inhabitants of our land. The Tlicho agreement has been negotiated to achieve a constitutional objective that is enshrined in section 35.1.

I hope that begins to address some of these concerns. I feel very comfortable with this, but I would also be very happy to engage any member in this chamber who does not have that same level of comfort. I know that the process in this chamber provides us that time.

Tlicho Land Claims and Self-Government Act October 27th, 2004

Madam Speaker, I am truly honoured to voice my support for Bill C-14, the Tlicho land claims and self-government act.

This legislation will establish a new and respectful relationship between Canada and the Tlicho. I am also confident that the agreement this bill brings into force will foster economic and social development in the Tlicho communities, which are progressive communities.

I visited them in the north over a year ago. I met with leaders and saw some of the development. I also visited some of the diamond mines. On the human resources development aspect, we have an increase of aboriginal skills in the workforce which is good for all people in Canada and the economy of one of our northern territories.

The Tlicho are Dene people who live in four communities to the north and west of Yellowknife. They are an ancient people who have thrived in the north's harsh climate through a mix of adaptation, determination and cooperation.

For more than 10 years the Tlicho have been involved in a comprehensive process of negotiation and consultation. We know that this process is one that is not always easy, but it is a testament to the three parties involved that they have come before this House looking for the final ratification by one of the parties.

The agreement at the core of Bill C-14 is the fruit of a long and important process. I think the level of the debate here is important. We need to help those who are seeking answers, but at the same time I am very confident that we have those answers.

This legislation comes at an auspicious time in Canada's history. Clearly, there is a new will among government leaders to resolve longstanding aboriginal issues. To address these issues effectively, the Prime Minister has restructured the top echelons of government, establishing a Privy Council Office secretariat and a cabinet committee, as well as appointing a parliamentary secretary, all devoted to the aboriginal affairs portfolio. Certainly this Parliament, this House and the other place, continue to be charged with this very important work.

A few months ago Ottawa hosted the historic Canada-Aboriginal Peoples Round Table. During the round table, representatives of dozens of governments, agencies and organizations from across Canada held focused and productive discussions. The success of these discussions inspired the parties to continue to collaborate on a range of aboriginal issues at several sectoral tables.

To track progress made on the issues, the Prime Minister pledged to introduce an annual report card in Parliament. I think this is another measurement. It is not Parliament, but it is another parallel process which has the ability to include many people, many experts from the aboriginal community.

While we recognize that aboriginal issues such as housing, health and economic development are complex and multifaceted, the government's overarching goal is clear. The goal is to ensure that aboriginal peoples are able to participate fully and equally in Canadian society.

Accessing the mainstream economy, for instance, has long been difficult for many aboriginal communities. These communities face significant obstacles, such as underdeveloped infrastructure, limited access to venture capital and a lack of entrepreneurial expertise. Delivering effective social services and providing relevant education have also been challenging.

Some of these communities have met that challenge and will continue and actually do better in the future.

Nevertheless, in recent years, a growing number of aboriginal communities have found innovative ways of overcoming these obstacles. Generally, their solutions involve partnerships with governments, private business and other communities.

For example, the Tlicho have leveraged a series of partnerships to make their communities more prosperous, progressive and sustainable. Today the Tlicho operate numerous joint ventures in a range of economic sectors. They run their own schools and deliver social services through an agreement with the Government of the Northwest Territories.

I remember my colleague asking a question about the Government of the Northwest Territories and whether this language was one that was used. I believe it is used. In fact, it is one of the seven or eight languages that are officially used in the Government of the Northwest Territories.

The Government of the Northwest Territories unanimously ratified this agreement. I remember being there over a year ago and talking to some members of that territorial government. They were encouraged and excited about the prosperity and economic development that this would bring to their region.

Now we are here. They want to strike a new deal with the people of Canada, a deal that will put them once again firmly in control of their own destiny. For centuries the Tlicho were a self-sufficient people in charge of their own affairs. Given the remote location of their communities, there was little contact with southerners. All of that changed though when plans got underway to develop oil and gas reserves in the north.

Recognizing that their traditional lifestyle was threatened, the Tlicho chiefs embarked on an ambitious project to help their people face an uncertain future. Instead of fearing the unknown, the Tlicho have seen an opportunity to better understand both the culture of the north and that of the south. This new philosophy has inspired Chief Jimmy Bruneau to coin a phrase describing the Tlicho people as being as strong as two peoples.

These were not just words. In the early 1970s a Tlicho school was built in the village of Rae to teach a bicultural curriculum. Lessons were based on both aboriginal and non-aboriginal traditions. A few years later the Tlicho took another progressive step by establishing a development company to sponsor private businesses. Rather than focus on profits, these businesses trained and employed Tlicho people. We have to celebrate the innovation, the thoughtfulness and the planning that this type of step brought to a community.

Twenty years later when diamonds were discovered on traditional Tlicho lands, the wisdom of Chief Bruneau's approach quickly became apparent. Seeing the diamond mines as a valuable opportunity for the Tlicho, they drew on the bicultural education of their students and the entrepreneurial expertise they had acquired through band owned companies to make the development of this resource work for them.

So, the Tlicho negotiated with the Diavik and BHP Billiton mining companies impact and benefit agreements providing for access to jobs, contracts, training programs and scholarships.

The Tlicho people have also invested in sustaining their vision of being a modern people who remain rooted in their traditions. Revenues from Diavik and BHP Billiton have been invested in Tlicho communities, in youth groups, in sports programs, in beautification projects and physical infrastructure.

Alongside these progressive ventures, they have continued to support traditional activities such as trails of our ancestors, an annual 10 day canoe trip. The trip, led by the Tlicho elders, involves up to 200 participants each year. People of all ages paddle and camp together on traditional waterways and lands. They fish and hunt together, renewing their age old connection to the land that is now providing for them in new ways.

Bill C-14 honours this connection by granting the Tlicho people ownership and control of their traditional lands. The legislation before us represents a momentous opportunity not only for the Tlicho but also for Canada. It will effectively give the Tlicho people access to the resources they need to sustain their communities. Bill C-14 is also an opportunity for the government to send a clear message to aboriginal people across the country that we are serious about working with them to support their vision of a better future for their families and their communities.

Clearly, finalizing land claims and self-government agreements represent major strides toward these goals. These agreements enable aboriginal communities to contribute to the economy in ways that honour their traditions, languages and cultures. For evidence of the value of these agreements we need look no further than Nunavut or the Nisga'a nation.

I said earlier in the House that I was involved in the Nisga'a nation agreement. It was the first embedded agreement of self-government and land claims. This is the second. It really is an honour and a special moment to be a participant in both of these. There have been other agreements, but I feel that we are creating history in this chamber. These are not words; these are not picking apart the legalities. These agreements are building a country. They are a vision of the future that engages in partnership with respect, cooperation and compromise.

The Tlicho people did not get everything they wanted in this agreement. Perhaps they did not get everything that Canada or the territory originally put on the table. Agreements like this are real negotiations after education and consultation. Compromises are made over time. At the end of the day, this agreement, with all of its vast boundaries, has overlapping agreements that were done in a manner with which all the neighbours are happy. That is not true of every agreement that has been brought before the House. This is a vast boundary and to my knowledge all the neighbours are happy.

Those negotiations were done in good faith. We can talk about that process and implementation in this chamber. Like an international treaty, this is a ratification process. These negotiations with the Tlicho were done in good faith and with clean hands. The Government of Canada has laid these negotiations before this chamber. The Tlicho people voted in their communities with an outstanding outcome. It was better than the outcome of my election and probably better than the election of some other people in this place. It was a true representation and ratified by the people most affected.

The respected financial services firm of Grant Thornton conducted a thorough review of recent developments in British Columbia: agreements in principle, court decisions and government policies. The study concluded that treaties deliver a large net positive financial and economic benefit for all residents of British Columbia.

We could probably extrapolate that. When certainty is given through agreements, economic ability to move forward is also given because of the consequences of not really knowing a boundary, a resource, the process of government, the people we are dealing with, or who has the jurisdiction. These tables have been put into an agreement which has been ratified two ways now. We are the third party here.

We are in a special position. We will debate the bill in this chamber, but then it will move to committee. I, as parliamentary secretary, together with members of our government will help other people who have concerns to understand. Sometimes at the end of the day, maybe that understanding will not be there. However, we will make our best effort to push for that understanding because it is in the best interests of Canadians to move these ratifications forward and to complete our task.

It should come as no surprise that there is only one economy and the more aboriginal people who participate in and contribute to the economy, the better off all Canadians will be.

The Tlicho people have been preparing to implement this agreement for up to 10 years. They have completed related accords with their aboriginal neighbours, secured the support of the territorial legislature in Yellowknife, and drafted and ratified a constitution. They have demonstrated a remarkable ability to negotiate mutually beneficial deals with partners from both the private and public sectors. It is now our turn to recognize these considerable accomplishments by establishing in law this new and respectful relationship with the Tlicho.

I sincerely urge all of my hon. colleagues to support Bill C-14. There will be time for them to make inquiries. There will be a way that we can strive to provide the answers they seek. However, I hope we all do this in the good faith that is needed to take this forward for the benefit of all Canadians.

Tlicho Land Claims and Self-Government Act October 27th, 2004

Madam Speaker, I appreciate the hon. member's speech. He spoke with great sensitivity on the issue of aboriginals and negotiations. This is very important.

In the member's experience, what happens over the time when one goes from a starting position as a negotiator? Is it a situation where we hold the line or is there true negotiation in these processes over a long time? When we look at all the various tables that have to occur, whether it is boundary tables or overlapping agreements, how complex are the negotiations and what are the sentiments of the negotiators who are at the table?

I do not think many Canadians have an understanding of the process, which is different from legislation that comes before the House, the tripartite process. The fact that we have a standing order that introduces this process of a treaty because it has a taxation power, that is why we have to deal with ways and means motions by the rules of the House. How has this come about? Could he give the benefit of his own experience in this type of negotiation to help Canadians understand what would happen and the compromises that occur over time?

Tlicho Land Claims and Self-Government Act October 27th, 2004

Mr. Speaker, my position on comments is to clarify the issues raised.

The hon. member at any time can ask for a briefing on these particular matters. We certainly would be happy to provide it. There will be ample opportunities for--