Mr. Speaker, I listened with great interest to the parliamentary secretary. He chose very nice words and I am sure some people might be persuaded by them.
I would like to say up front that some aspects of this bill are certainly going in the right direction and we would like to support them, especially in terms of devolving land management away from Ottawa and to the reserves. However, the fact is that the power to manage these lands is now going to be in the hands of band chiefs and councils rather than with the department of Indian affairs.
The question is: Is this necessarily a bad thing? I would answer that it could be a very good thing if there were rigid requirements for accountability on reserves today. We are becoming increasingly aware—and this is something the minister of Indian affairs has continued to try to downplay, conceal and deny for the last couple of years—that there are serious problems with accountability on many reserves. We are not sure how many of the reserves have these serious problems, but they are certainly evident in a big percentage of the reserves in Canada today.
I want to make it clear that this lack of accountability is not necessarily a failure of the band chiefs and councils. It is a failure of the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development. As much as the minister protests to the contrary, there are indeed very serious problems with fiscal and democratic accountability on reserves.
If the parliamentary secretary or anybody else on that side of the House, or on this side for that matter, doubts this, I would draw their attention to an article that was printed in today's edition of the Ottawa Citizen which deals specifically with this issue. It states:
After a season of badly handling some itsy-bitsy, teenie-weenie plaything scandals, the Chrétien government could soon have a real one on its hands.
On Indian reserves there is alleged corruption involving countless millions of dollars. There are police investigations in Alberta, there are media reports beginning to expose the story and there is acknowledgement in the highest power circles in Ottawa that the surface is only being scratch.
Taxpayers spend more than $4.4 billion in annual subsidies to native peoples. It is the only government budget that never gets cut. The allegations are that much of the money does not reach destitute Indians on the reserve. Instead it is pocketed by native intermediaries in Armani suits. The oversight department, Indian and Northern Affairs, doesn't seem to know where much of the money has landed.
The minister, Jane Stewart, said recently over lunch that while it is terribly unfair to tar all native peoples with the same brush on this issue, funding mismanagement is a serious issue.
This is important because it is the first time we have heard the minister actually acknowledge that it is a serious issue. Up until now she has been trying to tell us that it has not been an issue at all.
The article continues:
Is “serious issue” bureaucratese for major corruption scandal? Top policy makers in the government give that impression. They cite examples of unbelievable graft.
If this is the case, why isn't the government moving on it? Getting out front on the controversy instead of waiting to be cornered by revelations in the media and by opposition parties?
“Can't”, said one of the big men on Prime Minister Jean Chrétien's campus. “Racism. We'd be accused of racism”. The mere fact, he said, of suggesting the native peoples are incompetent at administering their finances would cause a terrible backlash. For evidence, he could cite the Reform Party, which has raised the issue and which has been painted in prejudiced terms as a result.
Thus political correctness takes it toll again. Great wads of public money go up in smoke, but owing to sensitivities involving minorities, a waiting game is played.
The article continues:
A Senate committee on aboriginal peoples has begun hearings, some of which will delve into this issue. Senator Janis Johnson, the deputy chairman, who is from Manitoba and who is well versed on the subject, said that while there is some terrific progress being made among native peoples through government programs, there is no underestimating the extent of the problem. “If the general public knew what chaos this department was in and all the money that was flying around, they wouldn't believe it. It is out of control”.
That is exactly what we have been saying for two years on this side of the House.
The article continues:
Despite Ottawa's always-escalating infusion of monies, up to 25 per cent of the country's 600 Indian bands are in debt to the tune of hundreds of millions.
This is consistent with the kind of feedback we are getting from grassroots people on reserves and it is the issue that we have raised in the House of Commons since the summer of 1997, only to be ridiculed and castigated by the minister of Indian affairs and others on that side of the House.
We have been told by the minister that only 3% of bands in Canada are in non-compliance, and yet we have departmental admission that 25% of the bands in this country are running deficits in excess of 8% which has required the department to step in and co-manage.
I would like to give the House some examples of how this affects people on reserves; where the rubber meets the road, if I can use that expression.
In my riding several years ago Gitksan band members came to me and said that the Minister of Health, who is responsible for aboriginal health in Canada, was considering signing a health authority or transfer agreement so that the Gitksan band would have primary responsibility in delivering health care to its members.
These people came to me because they were very concerned. They did not want this to happen. They said that their band, as it was then constituted, was not capable of administering health care and they did not want it.
I wrote several letters to the minister of health of the day and explained the views of these people and asked that the minister reconsider and not proceed with the transfer of health authority. She reassured me in glowing terms—and I have all of the correspondence in my file—that there was nothing to be concerned about, that it was widely and publicly supported by the Gitksan people and that they would do a good job.
Two and a half years later the roosters are coming home to roost. We found out, for example, in the spring of this year— and I raised it with the Minister of Health—that the Gitksan health authority had invested over $300,000 in the stock market in high risk stocks and had taken a $40,000 loss. That is a matter of public record.
Last week we found out through front page headlines in the Smithers Interior News , a local publication in northwest British Columbia, that $695,000 was paid out in honorariums over a period of two and a half years to board members. These are not people who work for the health authority, but just the health board.
How is that advancing the cause of health care in the Gitksan communities? What is that doing for people in the Gitksan communities who tell me they have to sleep in their pick-up trucks because when they go to Vancouver to see a specialist they do not have money for a room?
There was a fellow who went to Prince George for a gallbladder operation and there was no money for transportation fare. He hitchiked to the hospital and had the operation. Nowadays when we have an operation they try to get us out of the hospital as quickly as they can, so he started to hitchike back to his home town. He had to stop in Burns Lake because he was so sick. He had to hitchike from his hospital bed to get back home. There was no money for him, but there was $695,000 paid out in honorariums to board members and $300,000 was invested in the stock market. That is the problem.
Do I blame the Gitksan band? I blame the Department of Indian Affairs and the Department of Health for not ensuring that the people who were going to be responsible for these activities were well versed in ethical procedures, that there was a sound procedure in place for management and that there were sound reporting requirements in place. Apparently those things are non-existent. That is why we have the terrible situation we are faced with today. That is why the Gitksan people have had their health care badly compromised.
I can give another example. The Nisga'a people have recently signed a land claim agreement, in principle anyway because it has not been ratified by this House. It was reported that in one of their communities over $1 million in welfare payments was misused and misdirected. These are small communities and over $1 million represents a tremendous amount of income for these bands.
We have testimonials from grassroots aboriginals from right across Canada. My colleague from Wild Rose has the files in his office, but I believe that well over 125 bands have expressed concerns to us and asked us to look into these matters.
There are examples in Ontario. One band came to us and said that the band council had received money for a sewer and water project. They hired a contractor. The contractor was aware that the money was in place. The contractor went to work. The band received the money. The contractor requested payment and found that there was no money because the band had spent the money on something else.
There are allegations of a chief in Saskatchewan using band funds to buy used cars. He brings those used cars back into the community, sells them to the individuals in that community and pockets the cash. The list goes on and on. I could provide example after example.
This is really not about aboriginal people. It is about a failed system. It is about the failure of the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development to ensure that this did not happen in the first place. It has created an environment in which accountability is almost non-existent. It has become a breeding ground for practices that can best be described as unethical and at worst corruptive.
For example, all elected public officials in Canada, beginning with the Prime Minister and going right down to municipal officials, publicly report their salaries and expenses on a regular basis. Everybody in Canada is entitled to know what I make as a parliamentarian, what my expenses are and how much my travel costs are. That is all a matter of public record. If we go onto a reserve, no way. What we get is a financial report which is a glorified pie chart that gives us a percentage of the total revenue that the band has spent on administration, the global amount that is spent on health care and so on. But we do not get a breakdown and we do know what the public officials are making. That is the reality that these people are living with.
This bill proposes to transfer much greater powers for land management to chiefs and councils without first correcting the very serious deficiencies with accountability, both democratic and fiscal accountability, on the reserves.
I know the parliamentary secretary is aware of this, although I am sure he will not want to talk about it. I would argue that it is no accident that the aboriginal women's association of Canada and the aboriginal women's association of British Columbia are opposed to this bill. It is they who are most often the ones who pay the biggest price for lack of accountability. They know full well that there is no accountability with this bill. They know full well that they will be worse off as individuals with this bill in place.
They are not suggesting that the system, as it is, is great. They are saying that they do not want the responsibility for land management to be transferred until and unless there is a proper system of accountability in place so that their views will be respected in their communities.
People have told us not to worry because provincial laws with respect to family issues—and this will come down to family issues—including the disposition of family assets in the event of marital breakdown, will still apply. In other words, what they are saying is that there are provincial laws that govern marital breakdown and there are provincial laws that govern the disposal of family assets. Even though the chief and council will have land management rights, the provincial laws will supersede or override in cases where there is a conflict.
In response to that I give the House this example. I may have used it before, but it is worth hearing again.
During the last election campaign I met a young native lady in Prince Rupert. I thought she was interested in the campaign, but she was there to see me as a member of parliament. She was quite distraught. She was tearful. She said “Mr. Scott, I need your help”. I asked her to explain the problem.
She said that she was 35 years old and a young mother with three young children. Two of the children were not much more than babies. The oldest was only seven years old. Her children demanded a great deal of her time. Her husband had left her and she had no means of looking after herself. She was being forced to live on welfare.
She had some skills, but she could not work because she had to look after her children. With what she was getting on welfare she could not buy the food and clothing which she thought her children were entitled to. I understood her situation.
I asked where the father was. She said that he had taken off with a new girlfriend and did not want anything to do with her. I told her that she had rights. She could go to court and force the father to pay child support. In essence, her problem was getting enough funds to support her children properly.
She said that she had tried that, but as soon as she got a judgment that required her husband to pay child support he moved back onto the reserve. Guess what? That court order requiring her husband to make child support payments was not enforceable on reserve. Where are her rights?
How can the government, the minister and the parliamentary secretary suggest that we put people in even more peril with this lack of accountability, putting more people like her at risk?
Right now, in the event of a marital breakdown on a reserve, who most often winds up with the family home? In non-aboriginal society most often it is the woman because most often the woman ends up being the primary caregiver to the children after the marriage breaks down. On reserves it is the other way around because the decision as to who ends up with the marital home is not in the hands of the courts, it is in the hands of the chief and council. They effectively run the community.
These serious problems have to be addressed and in a manner which is acceptable to people living on reserve before we can support this kind of legislation.
While the principle of the bill can be supported, and we would like to be able to support it, it is putting the cart before the horse. There has to be accountability first before going to the next step and devolving more and greater powers to band councils.
The serious and persistent problems on aboriginal reserves must be addressed first in a manner which is satisfactory and acceptable to grassroots band members before the government proceeds with this bill and this kind of legislation. To not do so is to once again fail some of the most vulnerable people in this country.
